'Why do they hate us?'

[igloo]

'Why do they hate us?'

Thomas Sowell (archive)

March 17, 2004 | Print | Send

The idea that what goes around comes around applies not only to individuals but to nations and whole civilizations. It was just a few centuries ago -- not long, as history is measured -- that China had the highest standard of living in the world and the Dutch were the world's largest exporters, while North Africans were enslaving a million Europeans.

Nowhere have whole peoples seen their situation reversed more visibly or more painfully than the peoples of the Islamic world. In medieval times, Europe lagged far behind the Islamic world in science, mathematics, scholarship, and military power.

Even such ancient European thinkers as Plato and Aristotle became known to Europeans of the Middle Ages only after their writings, which had been translated into Arabic, were translated back into European languages.

Today that is all reversed. The number of books per person in Europe is more than ten times that in Africa and the Middle East. The number of books translated into Arabic over the past thousand years is about the same as the number translated into Spanish in one year.

There are only 18 computers per thousand persons in the Arab world, compared to 78 per thousand persons worldwide. Fewer than 400 industrial patents were issued to people in the Arab countries during the last two decades of the 20th century, while 15,000 industrial patents were issued to South Koreans alone.

Human beings do not always take reversals of fortune gracefully. Still less can those who were once on top quietly accept seeing others leaving them far behind economically, intellectually, and militarily.

Those in the Islamic world have for centuries been taught to regard themselves as far superior to the "infidels" of the West, while everything they see with their own eyes now tells them otherwise. Worse yet, what the whole world sees with their own eyes tells them that the Middle East has made few contributions to human advancement in our times.

Even Middle Eastern oil was largely discovered and processed by people from the West. After oil, the Middle East's most prominent export has been terrorism.

Those who look at the world in rationalistic terms may say that the Middle East can use some of its vast oil wealth to expand its own educated classes and move back to the forefront of human achievement. They did it once, why not do it again?

All sorts of things can be done in the long run, but you have to live through the short run to get there. Moreover, even the short run, as history is measured, can be pretty long in terms of the human lifespan.

Even if the Islamic world set such goals and committed the material resources and individual efforts required, they could not expect to pull abreast of the West for generations, even if the West stood still. More realistically, it would take centuries, as it took the West centuries to catch up to them.

What will happen in the meantime? Are millions of proud human beings supposed to quietly accept inferiority for themselves and their children, and perhaps their children's children?

Or are they more likely to listen to demagogues, whether political or religious, who tell them that their lowly place in the world is due to the evils of others -- the West, the Americans, the Jews?

If the peoples of the Islamic world disregarded such demagogues, they would be the exceptions, rather than the rule, among people who lag painfully far behind others. Even in the West, there have been powerful political movements based on the notion that the rich have gotten rich by keeping others poor -- and that things need to be set right "by all means necessary."

These means seldom include concentration on self-improvement, with 19th-century Japan being one of the rare exceptions. Lashing out at others is far more immediately satisfying -- and modern communications, transportation, and weaponry make it far easier to lash out destructively across great distances.

Against this background, we may want to consider the question asked by hand-wringers in the West: Why do they hate us? Maybe it is because the alternative to hating us is to hate themselves.

[siceone]

good read

[marksimons]

here's some more reasons.

CIA backed coup in Iran, 1954, installing the Shah, brutal dictator who ruled iran for 25 years.

CIA backed coup in Iraq, 1963 installing the ba'ath party to power, communists killed from lists quite possibly from the CIA. led to saddam.

western support for reppressive regimes, i.e. saudi arabia, because they give us oil.

western support for israel. the repression of the palestinian people.

could come up with some more...

not saying that the terrorists actions are justified, but these are some reasons...

[igloo]

Originally posted by marksimons

could come up with some more...

not saying that the terrorists actions are justified, but these are some reasons...

You left this out jerkoff:

Why do they hate us? Maybe it is because the alternative to hating us is to hate themselves.

Sort of symbolic of you and your anti-Americanism

[marksimons]

so you saying that you wouldn't be pissed off if another country had, in the 1950s say installed a dictator in america that ruled for 25 years, and imagine that in the late 70s there was a fundamentalist christian takeover and you were repressed violently, friends taken away in the night, brutal acts of violence on the streets, but no-one able to resist, at least for long.

can you truly imagine what it is like to have been born and raised in iraq or iran?

to know that your repression is the result of another country for ideological, political and economic reasons, supposedly, getting rid of a ruler who nationalised your oil because foriegn companies - british and american - were taking the profits out of the nation and expoloiting your most valuble asset.

the replacement rules for a quarter of a century and is one of the most brutally repressive dictators going.

don't you think that could have fucked up the generation who are now ruling iran?

how would that make you feel igloo? to know that was the history of your country, that though no fault of your own dictatorships and then a fundamentalist religious regime has been forced upon you.

who would you blame?

if you were as you are now, but in iran, what would you do? would you go to iraq to fight america, a country which has caused so much damage to yours?

or would you go into university and try and learn, to try and change your country for the better and to find ways of ending the cycles of violence and bloodshed.

the truth is there are lots of both types and various people in between.

that's life.

that's what happens with this many individuals able to make their own choices and individual beings.

but don't you think that by killing more, and more, and more, retaliating for retaliations, or being more ruthless, showing less mercy, don't you think, on both sides, that just perpetuates the suffering?

[djxeno]

the hate our freedom

[igloo]

Originally posted by marksimons

who would you blame?

Why do they hate us? Maybe it is because the alternative to hating us is to hate themselves.

Sort of symbolic of you and your anti-Americanism

[marksimons]

igloo, you're repeating yourself as you answer my question with a question.

thus avoiding answering the question.

can you imagine what it is like to have lived your whole life in iran?

have you ever stopped to think, to imagine what it would be like, just let your mind wander, put yourself in the position of living in an authrotarian society, where america is the great enemy, in exactly the same way that russia and communism were for america.

ever read the book the handmaid's tale?

can you please not just repeat your mantra that I'm anti american and that they only hate you because they don't want to hate themselves, do you realise how idiotic that sounds?

they only hate us because they don't want to hate themselves.

come on, sing along everyone.

they

dont want to hate themselves so they just

they juuuust

they juuuuuuust hhhhhhaaaaatteeeee us.

that's it.

pure hatred. all these people can feel.

forget any other factors, they all wrong, no mercy must be shown.

sure we don't like it when we kill innocent civilians, but our god, our religion, our president tells us that we're on the right side. we're doing good. if I die on the battle field, my mom and pops will know I'm in heaven.

it isn't just hate. it can't be just hate.

I doubt most terrorists could give you a detailed breakdown of the economics of the world, the way business really works, but you might be surprised.

but then again, how many american adults can look at a map and tell you where iran is without seeing the name written there.

it's not just terrorists who are stupid in their own way.

[igloo]

Originally posted by marksimons

igloo, you're repeating yourself as you answer my question with a question.

thus avoiding answering the question.

can you imagine what it is like to have lived your whole life in iran?

have you ever stopped to think, to imagine what it would be like, just let your mind wander, put yourself in the position of living in an authrotarian society, where america is the great enemy, in exactly the same way that russia and communism were for america.

ever read the book the handmaid's tale?

can you please not just repeat your mantra that I'm anti american and that they only hate you because they don't want to hate themselves, do you realise how idiotic that sounds?

Why do they hate us? Maybe it is because the alternative to hating us is to hate themselves.

Sort of symbolic of you and your anti-Americanism

[marksimons]

this is great, I wonder how long you'll keep this up.

are you just going to sit there doing the internet equivlant of putting your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes and going LALALALALALALALALALALALA I CAAAANT HEEEAR YOOOOOOOUUUUU.

your maturity astounds me igloo.

[igloo]

Originally posted by marksimons

this is great, I wonder how long you'll keep this up.

are you just going to sit there doing the internet equivlant of putting your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes and going LALALALALALALALALALALALA I CAAAANT HEEEAR YOOOOOOOUUUUU.

your maturity astounds me igloo.

Why do they hate us? Maybe it is because the alternative to hating us is to hate themselves.

Sort of symbolic of you and your anti-Americanism

[siceone]

Im sorry I didn't know that america Installed the Mullahs of iran

[marksimons]

they didn't directly, but that's the point.

the us did install the shah of iran, a brutal dictator that ruled Iran for 25 years before the mullahs.

if this dictator had not been put in place I'm sure that the chances of a fundamentalist regime taking over would have been cut dramatically.

see what I'm getting at?

[marksimons]

they didn't directly, but that's the point.

the us did install the shah of iran, a brutal dictator that ruled Iran for 25 years before the mullahs.

if this dictator had not been put in place I'm sure that the chances of a fundamentalist regime taking over would have been cut dramatically.

see what I'm getting at?

[ghhhhhost]

Originally posted by igloo

'Why do they hate us?'

is it our ladiesss.........or our drop mercedessssssss

[siceone]

Originally posted by marksimons

they didn't directly, but that's the point.

the us did install the shah of iran, a brutal dictator that ruled Iran for 25 years before the mullahs.

if this dictator had not been put in place I'm sure that the chances of a fundamentalist regime taking over would have been cut dramatically.

see what I'm getting at?

say I give you your CIA installed dictator theory now that these people are oppressed now what should we do just let them stay oppressed?

what would you do?

and how long should diplomacy take?

[marksimons]

we should aid them in any way we can.

iran is slowly getting itself out of the mess that it is in.

I would like to go to iran and speak to iranian students so they can tell me what we should do.

that's my plan.

and it isn't a theory about a CIA. it's a fact. the CIA was involved in that coup.

[igloo]

Originally posted by marksimons

see what I'm getting at?

YES, we got it...............you are a jerkoff with your head up your ass

[siceone]

Originally posted by marksimons

we should aid them in any way we can.

iran is slowly getting itself out of the mess that it is in.

I would like to go to iran and speak to iranian students so they can tell me what we should do.

that's my plan.

and it isn't a theory about a CIA. it's a fact. the CIA was involved in that coup.

you so have your head up your ass

[BRIANC1046]

Originally posted by igloo

YES, we got it...............you are a jerkoff with your head up your ass

marksimons makes excellent points and you respond by calling him a jerkoff with your head up your ass.. lol

[igloo]

Originally posted by bdanto4

marksimons makes excellent points and you respond by calling him a jerkoff with your head up your ass.. lol

marksimons is nothing but a blowhoard who vomits bullshit....

If you believe he makes excellent points, then congrats, you are a jerkoff too

[bigpoppanils]

Originally posted by bdanto4

marksimons makes excellent points and you respond by calling him a jerkoff with your head up your ass.. lol

that is because he has nothing to counter with

oh...and just for igloo.... :rolleyes:

[igloo]

Originally posted by bigpoppanils

that is because he has nothing to counter with

oh...and just for igloo.... :rolleyes:

And the typical response from bigpoppinnails...his famous rolleyes

jerkoff