And we call them our Allies.....

[kramadas]

listen i understand people die, shit sucks and all. BUt please stop bringing up the camera man getting killed.

It was night, and the fucking people were walking towards a fuckin tank. Why would you do that. I understand they waving white flags and shit but come on, there was warning shots and everything.

Blowing up buildings to kill 1 guy is bad.

Alright cameraman aside (though this is not an isolated incident...there have been several other incidents where foreigners have been killed in dubious circumstances), it is time people realized that this problem is not as simple as "oh, god bless Israel for they are just defending themselves". They need to realize that Israel is not nearly as innocent as some would have believe.

I had posted something on here before about how the settlers are trying to start some sort of civil war if they are moved out of Gaza. Do you really think that these people would abide by the law, if a peaceful solution was reached with the Palestinians. Look what happened to Rabin.

[jtk4]

There will be no peace. We all must come to grips with that. It will not happen in any of our lifetimes. And the children today are just getting tought it, never ending cycle.

One of my friends brothers is just getting back from serving inthe isreali army, i have yet to talk to him but i will definalty post some of the shit he says.

givin it will probably be biased but non the less, info is onfo

By the way he lives here and when he finished high school he enlisted. Crazy

[babbo]

So by that arguement, b/c Castro has been in control of Cuba for longer that any of us have been alive, his ideas/govt is better for Cuba than a young leader pushing for democracy.

I didnt respond b/c the questions were not really questions but if you would like the answers, here they are--- No, I dont bless the killing of civilians, but I am smart enough to understand the concept of collateral damage. Sometimes, you cant be perfect. Sometimes, there is a price to be paid for waging war against enemies who hide behind families and in mosques.

Additionally, my loyalty has and always will be with the United States. Even at our worst, we are better than any other nation on the block. As far as Israel spying on us, are you surprised? Everyone spies on everyone. There is no business dirtier than intel. Period

I only use silly icons when comments are so worthless that words arent needed.

bravo bravo bravo

[kramadas]

There will be no peace. We all must come to grips with that. It will not happen in any of our lifetimes. And the children today are just getting tought it, never ending cycle.

One of my friends brothers is just getting back from serving inthe isreali army, i have yet to talk to him but i will definalty post some of the shit he says.

givin it will probably be biased but non the less, info is onfo

By the way he lives here and when he finished high school he enlisted. Crazy

Yeah that will be interesting. On other boards I've heard first hand from people who have gone there (and this might be biased from the Palestinian side) but the normal palestinian civilians are apparently abused on a daily basis by the IDF. Unnecessary cruelty, humiliation, etc. For example, at a checkpoint, a soldier apparently whacked a kid on the head with his machine gun because he stepped out of line. Shit, if I had to face shit like that on a daily basis, I sure as hell would learn how to hate. No-one would have to "teach" me hate.

But it'll be interesting to see things from the IDF side too. Actually, quite a few Israelis I've spoken to are disgusted with the way things are handled in the territories. The problem are the fuckin settlers...it seems like they won't move even when ordered by their own government. So much for democracy...lets see what Sharon actually does.

Why is your friend going to serve in the ISraeli military? He's not a US citizen is he?

[jtk4]

he is getting back now. I am not sure if he was born here or there. I know his mother is off the boat. I am not sure what his reasoning was, if he felt obligated, or just wanted to experience things on his own. When i talk to him ill let you know.

He is my best friends step brother.

[babbo]

haha - what a sorry excuse for a post. Absolutely no content. WHy don't you try refute that a British cameraman was shot on film, or that there is indiscriminate bombings in Gaza and the West Bank, or that a spy was in the US govt possibly in a position to affect US policy in the ME.

Let me ask you - are you Jewish? I really wonder...if this spy thing turned out to be true, if you would be standing up for the US, or defending Israel.

But anyway, go on, amuse me - what IS going on around me and the world?

hey scumbag..you interested in my religion/heritage-so you can support your hateful-prejudiced ways- suck my fucking hookah.. you dushe bag

put this up your ass- and blow yourself to allah...my heritage us moroccan and thai- my religion and that of my parents is buddhist...i probably know more arabs and muslims and their mentality then you ever will...islamo-fascists have blown up buddhists shrines and murdered buddhists, islamo fascists have blown up christian shrines and murdered christians, islamo fascists have blown up jewish shrines, and murdered jewsish people- all in the name of islamo fascism- they have also murdered their own, in the name if islamo fascism...so anytime you want to justify, and condone, the murdering of innocent people, fill up your hookah with shit, piss and blood, stick it up your fearful hated filled islamo fascists supporting asshole- blow the fuck up of yourself- and then suck it up thru your hookah...in the end..the islamo fascists will go the same way of the nazi's and other groups like them-- dead.. and as far as israel goes..it will be there- a democratic state. surving all the attacks upon it, while its muslim neighbors will die from ignorance and killing off each other. yes i support the usa and israel..fuck yourself lmfao

[jtk4]

morrocan and thai?

you have a sister, that sounds hot.

[babbo]

morrocan and thai?

you have a sister, that sounds hot.

white hot..lol....

[babbo]

haha - what a sorry excuse for a post. Absolutely no content. WHy don't you try refute that a British cameraman was shot on film, or that there is indiscriminate bombings in Gaza and the West Bank, or that a spy was in the US govt possibly in a position to affect US policy in the ME.

Let me ask you - are you Jewish? I really wonder...if this spy thing turned out to be true, if you would be standing up for the US, or defending Israel.

But anyway, go on, amuse me - what IS going on around me and the world?

It will take some time to read the speech below. However, I believe you will agree with me that it was well worth it. I found the speech to be amazingly well done, right on and somewhat overwhelming when you think of the task ahead.

If any one would wish to have a clear picture of the war on terror then I would suggest you read this reprint of a speech of Haim Harari not a politician but a physicist

Speech by Haim Harari on War on Terror

HAIM HARARI, a theoretical physicist, is the Chair, Davidson Institute of Science Education, and Former President, from 1988 to 2001, of the Weizmann Institute of Science. During his years as President of the Institute, the Institute entered numerous new scientific fields and projects, built 47 new buildings, raised one Billion Dollars in philanthropic money, hired more than half of its current tenured Professors and became one of the highest royalty-earning academic organizations in the world.

Throughout all his adult life, Harari has made major contributions to three different fields: Particle Physics Research on the international scene, Science Education in the Israeli school system and Science Administration and Policy Making.

A View from the Eye of the Storm

Talk delivered by Haim Harari at a meeting of the International Advisory Board of a large multi-national corporation, April, 2004.

As you know, I usually provide the scientific and technological "entertainment" in our meetings, but, on this occasion, our Chairman suggested that I present my own personal view on events in the part of the world from which I come. I have never been and I will never be a Government official and I have no privileged information. My perspective is entirely based on what I see, on what I read and on the fact that my family has lived in this region for almost 200 years. You may regard my views as those of the proverbial taxi driver, which you are supposed to question, when you visit a country.

I could have shared with you some fascinating facts and some personal thoughts about the Israeli-Arab conflict. However, I will touch upon it only in passing. I prefer to devote most of my remarks to the broader picture of the region and its place in world events. I refer to the entire area between Pakistan and Morocco, which is predominantly Arab, predominantly Moslem, but includes many non-Arab and also significant non-Moslem minorities.

Why do I put aside Israel and its own immediate neighborhood? Because Israel

and any problems related to it, in spite of what you might read or hear in the world media, is not the central issue, and has never been the central issue in the upheaval in the region. Yes, there is a 100 year-old Israeli-Arab conflict, but it is not where the main show is. The millions who died in the Iran-Iraq war had nothing to do with Israel. The mass murder happening right now in Sudan, where the Arab Moslem regime is massacring

its black Christian citizens, has nothing to do with Israel. The frequent reports from Algeria about the murders of hundreds of civilian in one village or another by other Algerians have nothing to do with Israel. Saddam Hussein did not invade Kuwait, endangered Saudi Arabia and butchered his own people because of Israel. Egypt did not use poison gas against Yemen in the 60's because of Israel. Assad the Father did not kill tens of thousands of his own citizens in one week in El Hamma in Syria because of Israel. The Taliban control of Afghanistan and the civil war there had nothing to do with Israel. The Libyan blowing up of the Pan-Am flight had nothing to do with Israel, and I could go on and on and on.

The root of the trouble is that this entire Moslem region is totally dysfunctional, by any standard of the word, and would have been so even if Israel would have joined the Arab league and an independent Palestine would have existed for 100 years. The 22 member countries of the Arab league, from Mauritania to the Gulf States, have a total population of 300 millions, larger than the US and almost as large as the EU before its expansion. They have a land area larger than either the US or all of Europe. These 22 countries, with all their oil and natural resources, have a combined GDP smaller than that of Netherlands plus Belgium and equal to half of the GDP of California alone. Within this meager GDP, the gaps between rich and poor are beyond belief and too many of the rich made their money not by succeeding in business, but by being corrupt rulers. The social status of

women is far below what it was in the Western World 150 years ago. Human rights are below any reasonable standard, in spite of the grotesque fact that Libya was elected Chair of the UN Human Rights commission. According to a report prepared by a committee of Arab intellectuals and published under the auspices of the U.N., the number of books translated by the entire Arab world is much smaller than what little Greece alone translates. The total number of scientific publications of 300 million Arabs is less than that of 6 million Israelis. Birth rates in the region are very high, increasing the poverty, the social gaps and the cultural decline. And all of this is happening in a region, which only 30 years ago, was believed to be the next wealthy part of the world, and in a Moslem area, which developed, at some point in history, one of the most advanced cultures in the world.

It is fair to say that this creates an unprecedented breeding ground for cruel dictators, terror networks, fanaticism, incitement, suicide murders and general decline. It is also a fact that almost everybody in the region blames this situation on the United States, on Israel, on Western Civilization, on Judaism and Christianity, on anyone and anything, except themselves.

Do I say all of this with the satisfaction of someone discussing the failings of his enemies? On the contrary, I firmly believe that the world would have been a much better place and my own neighborhood would have been much more pleasant and peaceful, if things were different.

I should also say a word about the millions of decent, honest, good people who are either devout Moslems or are not very religious but grew up in Moslem families. They are double victims of an outside world, which now develops Islamophobia and of their own environment, which breaks their heart by being totally dysfunctional. The problem is that the vast silent majority of these Moslems are not part of the terror and of the incitement but they also do not stand up against it. They become accomplices, by omission, and

this applies to political leaders, intellectuals, business people and many others. Many of them can certainly tell right from wrong, but are afraid to express their views.

The events of the last few years have amplified four issues, which have always existed, but have never been as rampant as in the present upheaval in the region. These are the four main pillars of the current World Conflict, or perhaps we should already refer to it as "the undeclared World War III". I have no better name for the present situation. A few more years may pass before everybody acknowledges that it is a World War, but we are already well into it.

The first element is the suicide murder. Suicide murders are not a new invention but they have been made popular, if I may use this expression, only lately. Even after September 11, it seems that most of the Western World does not yet understand this weapon. It is a very potent psychological weapon. Its real direct impact is relatively minor. The total number of casualties from hundreds of suicide murders within Israel in the last three

years is much smaller than those due to car accidents. September 11 was quantitatively much less lethal than many earthquakes. More people die from AIDS in one day in Africa than all the Russians who died in the hands of Chechnya-based Moslem suicide murderers since that conflict started. Saddam killed every month more people than all those who died from suicide murders since the Coalition occupation of Iraq.

So what is all the fuss about suicide killings? It creates headlines. It is spectacular. It is frightening. It is a very cruel death with bodies dismembered and horrible severe lifelong injuries to many of the wounded. It is always shown on television in great detail. One such murder, with the help of hysterical media coverage, can destroy the tourism industry of a country for quite a while, as it did in Bali and in Turkey.

But the real fear comes from the undisputed fact that no defense and no preventive measures can succeed against a determined suicide murderer. This has not yet penetrated the thinking of the Western World. The U.S. and Europe are constantly improving their defense against the last murder, not the next one. We may arrange for the best airport security in the world. But if you want to murder by suicide, you do not have to board a plane in order to explode yourself and kill many people. Who could stop a suicide murder

in the midst of the crowded line waiting to be checked by the airport metal detector? How about the lines to the check-in counters in a busy travel period? Put a metal detector in front of every train station in Spain and the terrorists will get the buses. Protect the buses and they will explode in movie theaters, concert halls, supermarkets, shopping malls,

schools and hospitals. Put guards in front of every concert hall and there will always be a line of people to be checked by the guards and this line will be the target, not to speak of killing the guards themselves. You can somewhat reduce your vulnerability by preventive and defensive measures and by strict border controls but not eliminate it and definitely not win the war in a defensive way. And it is a war!

What is behind the suicide murders? Money, power and cold-blooded murderous

incitement, nothing else. It has nothing to do with true fanatic religious beliefs. No Moslem preacher has ever blown himself up. No son of an Arab politician or religious leader has ever blown himself. No relative of anyone influential has done it. Wouldn't you expect some of the religious leaders to do it themselves, or to talk their sons into doing it, if this is truly a supreme act of religious fervor? Aren't they interested in the benefits of going to Heaven? Instead, they send outcast women, naïve children, retarded

people and young incited hotheads. They promise them the delights, mostly sexual, of the next world, and pay their families handsomely after the supreme act is performed and enough innocent people are dead.

Suicide murders also have nothing to do with poverty and despair. The poorest region in the world, by far, is Africa. It never happens there. There are numerous desperate people in the world, in different cultures, countries and continents. Desperation does not provide anyone with explosives, reconnaissance and transportation. There was certainly more

despair in Saddam's Iraq then in Paul Bremmer's Iraq, and no one exploded himself. A suicide murder is simply a horrible, vicious weapon of cruel, inhuman, cynical, well-funded terrorists, with no regard to human life, including the life of their fellow countrymen, but with very high regard to their own affluent well-being and their hunger for power.

The only way to fight this new "popular" weapon is identical to the only way in which you fight organized crime or pirates on the high seas: the offensive way. Like in the case of organized crime, it is crucial that the forces on the offensive be united and it is crucial to reach the top of the crime pyramid. You cannot eliminate organized crime by arresting the little drug dealer in the street corner. You must go after the head of the "Family".

If part of the public supports it, others tolerate it, many are afraid of it and some try to explain it away by poverty or by a miserable childhood, organized crime will thrive and so will terrorism. The United States understands this now, after September 11. Russia is beginning to understand it. Turkey understands it well. I am very much afraid that most of Europe still does not understand it. Unfortunately, it seems that Europe will understand it only after suicide murders will arrive in Europe in a big way. In my humble opinion, this will definitely happen. The Spanish trains and the Istanbul bombings are only the beginning. The unity of the Civilized World in fighting this horror is absolutely indispensable. Until Europe wakes up, this unity will not be achieved.

The second ingredient is words, more precisely lies. Words can be lethal. They kill people. It is often said that politicians, diplomats and perhaps also lawyers and business people must sometimes lie, as part of their professional life. But the norms of politics and diplomacy are childish, in comparison with the level of incitement and total absolute deliberate fabrications, which have reached new heights in the region we are talking

about. An incredible number of people in the Arab world believe that September 11 never happened, or was an American provocation or, even better, a Jewish plot.

You all remember the Iraqi Minister of Information, Mr. Mouhamad Said al-Sahaf and his press conferences when the US forces were already inside Baghdad. Disinformation at time of war is an accepted tactic. But to stand, day after day, and to make such preposterous statements, known to everybody to be lies, without even being ridiculed in your own milieu, can only happen in this region. Mr. Sahaf eventually became a popular icon as a court jester, but this did not stop some allegedly respectable newspapers from

giving him equal time. It also does not prevent the Western press from giving credence, every day, even now, to similar liars. After all, if you want to be an anti-Semite, there are subtle ways of doing it. You do not have to claim that the holocaust never happened and that the Jewish temple in Jerusalem never existed. But millions of Moslems are told by their leaders that this is the case. When these same leaders make other statements, the Western media report them as if they could be true.

It is a daily occurrence that the same people, who finance, arm and dispatch suicide murderers, condemn the act in English in front of western TV cameras, talking to a world audience, which even partly believes them. It is a daily routine to hear the same leader making opposite statements in Arabic to his people and in English to the rest of the world. Incitement by Arab TV, accompanied by horror pictures of mutilated bodies, has become a powerful weapon of those who lie, distort and want to destroy everything.

Little children are raised on deep hatred and on admiration of so-called martyrs, and the Western World does not notice it because its own TV sets are mostly tuned to soap operas and game shows. I recommend to you, even though most of you do not understand Arabic, to watch Al Jazeera, from time to time. You will not believe your own eyes.

But words also work in other ways, more subtle. A demonstration in Berlin, carrying banners supporting Saddam's regime and featuring three-year old babies dressed as suicide murderers, is defined by the press and by political leaders as a "peace demonstration". You may support or oppose the Iraq war, but to refer to fans of Saddam, Arafat or Bin Laden as peace activists is a bit too much. A woman walks into an Israeli restaurant in mid-day, eats, observes families with old people and children eating their

lunch in the adjacent tables and pays the bill. She then blows herself up, killing 20 people, including many children, with heads and arms rolling around in the restaurant. She is called "martyr" by several Arab leaders and "activist" by the European press. Dignitaries condemn the act but visit her bereaved family and the money flows.

There is a new game in town: The actual murderer is called "the military wing", the one who pays him, equips him and sends him is now called "the political wing" and the head of the operation is called the "spiritual leader". There are numerous other examples of such Orwellian nomenclature, used every day not only by terror chiefs but also by Western media. These words are much more dangerous than many people realize. They provide an emotional infrastructure for atrocities. It was Joseph Goebels who said

that if you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it. He is now being

outperformed by his successors.

The third aspect is money. Huge amounts of money, which could have solved many social problems in this dysfunctional part of the world, are channeled into three concentric spheres supporting death and murder. In the inner circle are the terrorists themselves. The money funds their travel, explosives, hideouts and permanent search for soft vulnerable targets. They are surrounded by a second wider circle of direct supporters, planners, commanders, preachers, all of whom make a living, usually a very

comfortable living, by serving as terror infrastructure. Finally, we find the third

circle of so-called religious, educational and welfare organizations, which actually do some good, feed the hungry and provide some schooling, but brainwash a new generation with hatred, lies and ignorance. This circle operates mostly through mosques, madrasas and other religious establishments but also through inciting electronic and printed media. It is this circle that makes sure that women remain inferior, that democracy is unthinkable

and that exposure to the outside world is minimal. It is also that circle that leads the way in blaming everybody outside the Moslem world, for the miseries of the region.

Figuratively speaking, this outer circle is the guardian, which makes sure that the people look and listen inwards to the inner circle of terror and incitement, rather than to the world outside. Some parts of this same outer circle actually operate as a result of fear from, or blackmail by, the inner circles. The horrifying added factor is the high birth rate. Half of the population of the Arab world is under the age of 20, the most receptive age

to incitement, guaranteeing two more generations of blind hatred.

Of the three circles described above, the inner circles are primarily financed by terrorist states like Iran and Syria, until recently also by Iraq and Libya and earlier also by some of the Communist regimes. These states, as well as the Palestinian Authority, are the safe havens of the wholesale murder vendors. The outer circle is largely financed by Saudi

Arabia, but also by donations from certain Moslem communities in the United States and Europe and, to a smaller extent, by donations of European Governments to various NGO's and by certain United Nations organizations, whose goals may be noble, but they are infested and exploited by agents of the outer circle. The Saudi regime, of course, will be the next victim of major terror, when the inner circle will explode into the outer circle. The Saudis are beginning to understand it, but they fight the inner circles, while still financing the infrastructure at the outer circle.?

Some of the leaders of these various circles live very comfortably on their loot. You meet their children in the best private schools in Europe, not in the training camps of suicide murderers. The Jihad "soldiers" join packaged death tours to Iraq and other hotspots, while some of their leaders ski in Switzerland. Mrs. Arafat, who lives in Paris with her daughter, receives tens of thousands Dollars per month from the allegedly bankrupt Palestinian Authority while a typical local ringleader of the Al-Aksa brigade, reporting to Arafat, receives only a cash payment of a couple of hundred dollars, for performing murders at the retail level?

The fourth element of the current world conflict is the total breaking of all laws. The civilized world believes in democracy, the rule of law, including international law, human rights, free speech and free press, among other liberties. There are naïve old-fashioned habits such as respecting religious sites and symbols, not using ambulances and hospitals for acts of war, avoiding the mutilation of dead bodies and not using children as human shields or human bombs. Never in history, not even in the Nazi period, was

there such total disregard of all of the above as we observe now. Every student of political science debates how you prevent an anti-democratic force from winning a democratic election and abolishing democracy. Other aspects of a civilized society must also have limitations. Can a policeman open fire on someone trying to kill him? Can a government listen to phone conversations of terrorists and drug dealers? Does free speech protects you when you shout "fire" in a crowded theater? Should there be death penalty,

for deliberate multiple murders? These are the old-fashioned dilemmas. But now we have an entire new set.

Do you raid a mosque, which serves as a terrorist ammunition storage? Do you

return fire, if you are attacked from a hospital? Do you storm a church taken over by terrorists who took the priests hostages? Do you search every ambulance after a few suicide murderers use ambulances to reach their targets? Do you strip every woman because one pretended to be pregnant and carried a suicide bomb on her belly? Do you shoot back at someone trying to kill you, standing deliberately behind a group of children? Do you raid terrorist headquarters, hidden in a mental hospital? Do you shoot an arch-murderer who deliberately moves from one location to another, always

surrounded by children? All of these happen daily in Iraq and in the Palestinian areas. What do you do? Well, you do not want to face the dilemma. But it cannot be avoided.

Suppose, for the sake of discussion, that someone would openly stay in a well-known address in Teheran, hosted by the Iranian Government and financed by it, executing one atrocity after another in Spain or in France, killing hundreds of innocent people, accepting responsibility for the crimes, promising in public TV interviews to do more of the same, while the Government of Iran issues public condemnations of his acts but continues to host him, invite him to official functions and treat him as a great

dignitary. I leave it to you as homework to figure out what Spain or France would have done, in such a situation.

The problem is that the civilized world is still having illusions about the rule of law in a totally lawless environment. It is trying to play ice hockey by sending a ballerina ice-skater into the rink or to knock out a heavyweight boxer by a chess player. In the same way that no country has a law against cannibals eating its prime minister, because such an act is unthinkable, international law does not address killers shooting from hospitals, mosques and ambulances, while being protected by their Government or society. International law does not know how to handle someone who sends children to throw stones, stands behind them and shoots with immunity and cannot be arrested because he is sheltered by a Government. International law does not know how to deal with a leader of murderers who is royally and comfortably hosted by a country, which pretends to condemn his acts or just claims to be too weak to arrest him. The amazing thing is that all of these crooks demand protection under international law and define all those who

attack them as war criminals, with some Western media repeating the allegations. The good news is that all of this is temporary, because the evolution of international law has always adapted itself to reality. The punishment for suicide murder should be death or arrest before the murder, not during and not after. After every world war, the rules of international law have changed and the same will happen after the present one. But during the twilight zone, a lot of harm can be done.

The picture I described here is not pretty. What can we do about it? In the short run, only fight and win. In the long run ? only educate the next generation and open it to the world. The inner circles can and must be destroyed by force. The outer circle cannot be eliminated by force. Here we need financial starvation of the organizing elite, more power to women, more education, counter propaganda, boycott whenever feasible and access to Western media, internet and the international scene. Above all, we need a

total absolute unity and determination of the civilized world against all three circles of evil.

Allow me, for a moment, to depart from my alleged role as a taxi driver and return to science. When you have a malignant tumor, you may remove the tumor itself surgically. You may also starve it by preventing new blood from reaching it from other parts of the body, thereby preventing new "supplies" from expanding the tumor. If you want to be sure, it is best to do both.

But before you fight and win, by force or otherwise, you have to realize that you are in a war, and this may take Europe a few more years. In order to win, it is necessary to first eliminate the terrorist regimes, so that no Government in the world will serve as a safe haven for these people. I do not want to comment here on whether the American-led attack on Iraq was justified from the point of view of weapons of mass destruction or any

other pre-war argument, but I can look at the post-war map of Western Asia. Now that Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya are out, two and a half terrorist states remain: Iran, Syria and Lebanon, the latter being a Syrian colony. Perhaps Sudan should be added to the list. As a result of the conquest of Afghanistan and Iraq, both Iran and Syria are now totally surrounded by territories unfriendly to them. Iran is encircled by Afghanistan, by the

Gulf States, Iraq and the Moslem republics of the former Soviet Union. Syria is surrounded by Turkey, Iraq, Jordan and Israel. This is a significant strategic change and it applies strong pressure on the terrorist countries. It is not surprising that Iran is so active in trying to incite a Shiite uprising in Iraq. I do not know if the American plan was actually to encircle both Iran and Syria, but that is the resulting situation.

In my humble opinion, the number one danger to the world today is Iran and its regime. It definitely has ambitions to rule vast areas and to expand in all directions. It has an ideology, which claims supremacy over Western culture. It is ruthless. It has proven that it can execute elaborate terrorist acts without leaving too many traces, using Iranian Embassies. It is clearly trying to develop Nuclear Weapons. Its so-called moderates and

conservatives play their own virtuoso version of the "good-cop versus bad-cop" game. Iran sponsors Syrian terrorism, it is certainly behind much of the action in Iraq, it is fully funding the Hizbullah and, through it, the Palestinian Hamas and Islamic Jihad, it performed acts of terror at least in Europe and in South America and probably also in Uzbekistan and Saudi Arabia and it truly leads a multi-national terror consortium, which includes, as minor players, Syria, Lebanon and certain Shiite elements in Iraq. Nevertheless, most European countries still trade with Iran, try to appease it and refuse to read the clear signals.

In order to win the war it is also necessary to dry the financial resources of the terror conglomerate. It is pointless to try to understand the subtle differences between the Sunni terror of Al Qaida and Hamas and the Shiite terror of Hizbullah, Sadr and other Iranian inspired enterprises. When it serves their business needs, all of them collaborate beautifully.

It is crucial to stop Saudi and other financial support of the outer circle, which is the fertile breeding ground of terror. It is important to monitor all donations from the Western World to Islamic organizations, to monitor the finances of international relief organizations and to react with forceful economic measures to any small sign of financial aid to any of the three circles of terrorism. It is also important to act decisively against

the campaign of lies and fabrications and to monitor those Western media who

collaborate with it out of naivety, financial interests or ignorance. Above all, never surrender to terror. No one will ever know whether the recent elections in Spain would have yielded a different result, if not for the train bombings a few days earlier. But it really does not matter. What matters is that the terrorists believe that they caused the result and that they won by driving Spain out of Iraq. The Spanish story will surely end up being extremely costly to other European countries, including France, who is now expelling inciting preachers and forbidding veils and including others who sent troops to Iraq. In the long run, Spain itself will pay even more.

Is the solution a democratic Arab world? If by democracy we mean free elections but also free press, free speech, a functioning judicial system, civil liberties, equality to women, free international travel, exposure to international media and ideas, laws against racial incitement and against defamation, and avoidance of lawless behavior regarding hospitals, places of worship and children, then yes, democracy is the solution. If democracy is just free elections, it is likely that the most fanatic regime will be elected, the one whose incitement and fabrications are the most inflammatory. We have seen it already in Algeria and, to a certain extent, in Turkey. It will happen again, if the ground is not prepared very carefully. On the other hand, a certain transition democracy, as in Jordan, may be a better temporary solution, paving the way for the real thing, perhaps in the same way that an immediate sudden democracy did not work in Russia and would not have worked in China.

I have no doubt that the civilized world will prevail. But the longer it takes us to understand the new landscape of this war, the more costly and painful the victory will be. Europe, more than any other region, is the key. Its understandable recoil from wars, following the horrors of World War II, may cost thousands of additional innocent lives, before the tide will turn.

this is happening around you- wake the fuck up

[tvercetti]

whats up everyone, i'm new to the boards here...

i was just reading this thread and am having trouble understanding the need to distinguish the terrorists that attack israel as palestinian as opposed to muslim...they are muslim. they are attacking israel in the name of their religion, or so i thought...yes, the underlying disagreement is about land, but it has a hell of alot to do with religious differences as well....I dont undestand why tres-b got destroyed for that? Anyone care to enlighten??

[babbo]

whats up everyone, i'm new to the boards here...

i was just reading this thread and am having trouble understanding the need to distinguish the terrorists that attack israel as palestinian as opposed to muslim...they are muslim. they are attacking israel in the name of their religion, or so i thought...yes, the underlying disagreement is about land, but it has a hell of alot to do with religious differences as well....I dont undestand why tres-b got destroyed for that? Anyone care to enlighten??

read my post- a few lines up- the long one

[tvercetti]

babbo- ok, that was mad interesting, but it didnt answer my question about why the terrorists attacking israel can't be called muslim terrorists..

I'd like to comment on that speech too. I agreed with a lot of it, but I also believe that while actively shutting down funding, attacking cells, etc..is essential, so is destroying the underlying motivation that drives terror activity from the ME (ie, for israel considering giving up the west bank as well and for the entire area-which includes more than just syria, lebanon and iran- delivering true democracy thru active support for liberals there or force if need be). The speaker was obviously on point about the horrors of terror, but fails to acknowledge the root of the anger. i dont think that money hunger can drive whats going on. It's anger that the ME is/was being exploited by the West as well as their own leaders. There is no denying this. It does not justify killing civilians, but it must be the source (fair dealing and removal of corrupt leaders) that is remedied, not just the symptoms. My 2 cents anyway...

[fresinha12]

hard for me to believe u have any thai or buddhist tendencies.....i would think u are a morrocon jew, christian, moslem or monorite....cuz u dont depict anything of the buddhist faith....if u r, I am sure u r not paternally buddhist....u aggression and hatered is very contrary to the buddhist faith....

hey scumbag..you interested in my religion/heritage-so you can support your hateful-prejudiced ways- suck my fucking hookah.. you dushe bag

put this up your ass- and blow yourself to allah...my heritage us moroccan and thai- my religion and that of my parents is buddhist...i probably know more arabs and muslims and their mentality then you ever will...islamo-fascists have blown up buddhists shrines and murdered buddhists, islamo fascists have blown up christian shrines and murdered christians, islamo fascists have blown up jewish shrines, and murdered jewsish people- all in the name of islamo fascism- they have also murdered their own, in the name if islamo fascism...so anytime you want to justify, and condone, the murdering of innocent people, fill up your hookah with shit, piss and blood, stick it up your fearful hated filled islamo fascists supporting asshole- blow the fuck up of yourself- and then suck it up thru your hookah...in the end..the islamo fascists will go the same way of the nazi's and other groups like them-- dead.. and as far as israel goes..it will be there- a democratic state. surving all the attacks upon it, while its muslim neighbors will die from ignorance and killing off each other. yes i support the usa and israel..fuck yourself lmfao

[fresinha12]

isreali-palestinian conflict is an ethnic issue, there are chiristian palestinian, and atheist palestinian fighting along with moslem palestinians, i know my prof who was a christian from palestine and he was very clear in his opinion that the isreali-palestinian conflict was about people not religon, its only been the last 4-5yrs that US media has started potraying this as a religous conflict...this is actually coming from the bernard lewis camp (he is a prof @princeton, who happens to be a davout jew and very anti-moslem, christian, he believes in the clash of religons) so if you read history and do your research you will realize that this issue has to do with ethnicity...even yaser Arafat was a secularist, and was very anti moslem, to the extend that he denounced the saudis as religous backward people....this scumbag having realized that he cant stay in power too long is now all of a sudden like our president a born again religous-phobe.......and is using religon to describe himself...

whats up everyone, i'm new to the boards here...

i was just reading this thread and am having trouble understanding the need to distinguish the terrorists that attack israel as palestinian as opposed to muslim...they are muslim. they are attacking israel in the name of their religion, or so i thought...yes, the underlying disagreement is about land, but it has a hell of alot to do with religious differences as well....I dont undestand why tres-b got destroyed for that? Anyone care to enlighten??

[kramadas]

hey scumbag..you interested in my religion/heritage-so you can support your hateful-prejudiced ways- suck my fucking hookah.. you dushe bag

put this up your ass- and blow yourself to allah...my heritage us moroccan and thai- my religion and that of my parents is buddhist...i probably know more arabs and muslims and their mentality then you ever will...islamo-fascists have blown up buddhists shrines and murdered buddhists, islamo fascists have blown up christian shrines and murdered christians, islamo fascists have blown up jewish shrines, and murdered jewsish people- all in the name of islamo fascism- they have also murdered their own, in the name if islamo fascism...so anytime you want to justify, and condone, the murdering of innocent people, fill up your hookah with shit, piss and blood, stick it up your fearful hated filled islamo fascists supporting asshole- blow the fuck up of yourself- and then suck it up thru your hookah...in the end..the islamo fascists will go the same way of the nazi's and other groups like them-- dead.. and as far as israel goes..it will be there- a democratic state. surving all the attacks upon it, while its muslim neighbors will die from ignorance and killing off each other. yes i support the usa and israel..fuck yourself lmfao

You really did make yourself look like a fool now boy. Hookah - haha.. why would I be smoking a hookah?? I'm Hindu, asshole, and probably have a LOT more reason than you to hate muslims. But, me, unlike you, can see past the blanket hate that prevails among the more "emotional" people - I can actually think and see that labeling a whole people as "fascist" or a whole religion as "hateful" is counterproductive, and just extends the cycle of violence.

It would definitely behoove you to see past your whole hand, and think long term - use a scalpel to cut the cancer, not a chainsaw for the whole arm (which is what Israel is doing). All Israel is doing is giving organizations like Islamic Jihad droves of volunteers (something they might not entirely dislike since it gives them more excuse to subjugate the Palestinians).

Democratic - haha...keep your eyes peeled on the news fewl. The settlers are threating civil war...lets see if Sharon actually has the guts to stand up to them or will back down.

[kramadas]

babbo- ok, that was mad interesting, but it didnt answer my question about why the terrorists attacking israel can't be called muslim terrorists..

I'd like to comment on that speech too. I agreed with a lot of it, but I also believe that while actively shutting down funding, attacking cells, etc..is essential, so is destroying the underlying motivation that drives terror activity from the ME (ie, for israel considering giving up the west bank as well and for the entire area-which includes more than just syria, lebanon and iran- delivering true democracy thru active support for liberals there or force if need be). The speaker was obviously on point about the horrors of terror, but fails to acknowledge the root of the anger. i dont think that money hunger can drive whats going on. It's anger that the ME is/was being exploited by the West as well as their own leaders. There is no denying this. It does not justify killing civilians, but it must be the source (fair dealing and removal of corrupt leaders) that is remedied, not just the symptoms. My 2 cents anyway...

Great post. I completely agree - while dealing with the cells, there is also the need to understand and address the underlying cause of terrorism. IMO, the people there have been so oppressed, life does not mean much to them anymore (esp, the Palestinians). So how could you expect them to value someone else's life? There needs to be great effort put into poverty reduction and education, so these people actually can think for themselves and have something to live for.

But people on here just like to pass off that attitude as "appeasing the terrorists".

[jtk4]

Black people in this country were poor and repressed and forced to live in different areas then white people. They did not go around blowing themselves up. And we are not there yet but i would say they are doing pretty well today.

this might be stupid but are the palistines able to vote. i am thinking no, but am curious.

[kramadas]

Black people in this country were poor and repressed and forced to live in different areas then white people. They did not go around blowing themselves up. And we are not there yet but i would say they are doing pretty well today.

this might be stupid but are the palistines able to vote. i am thinking no, but am curious.

NO, but the people in Africa did(at least fight back). Palestinians vote?? Not a chance in hell. They're not even part of Israel proper, not citizens, but just in limbo. Thats my thing too - if not give them their own state, then make them Israeli citizens. But, that will never happen either.

Even in this country, didn't we have something called the "Black Panthers"?

Even so, how many tanks rolled into black neighbourhoods, how many bombs were dropped in their neighbourhoods, etc?

[fresinha12]

forgot the black panthers???? forgot the civil rights movement? forgot the national guards sent in by JFK???man you must be suffering from dimenshia....or just simple ignorance of history....of the UNITED STATES. while we are talking about the northern american continent, forgot about the HAITI freedom movement?? how did HAITI become a free nation??

Black people in this country were poor and repressed and forced to live in different areas then white people. They did not go around blowing themselves up. And we are not there yet but i would say they are doing pretty well today.

this might be stupid but are the palistines able to vote. i am thinking no, but am curious.

[kramadas]

isreali-palestinian conflict is an ethnic issue, there are chiristian palestinian, and atheist palestinian fighting along with moslem palestinians, i know my prof who was a christian from palestine and he was very clear in his opinion that the isreali-palestinian conflict was about people not religon, its only been the last 4-5yrs that US media has started potraying this as a religous conflict...this is actually coming from the bernard lewis camp (he is a prof @princeton, who happens to be a davout jew and very anti-moslem, christian, he believes in the clash of religons) so if you read history and do your research you will realize that this issue has to do with ethnicity...even yaser Arafat was a secularist, and was very anti moslem, to the extend that he denounced the saudis as religous backward people....this scumbag having realized that he cant stay in power too long is now all of a sudden like our president a born again religous-phobe.......and is using religon to describe himself...

Yeah, I heard that the PLO was actually secularist till the emergence of the rival Islamic Jihad (which, as the name suggests is religious)...people were frustrated by the PLO's lack of progress and were trying to give anything else a shot.

[jtk4]

forgot the black panthers???? forgot the civil rights movement? forgot the national guards sent in by JFK???man you must be suffering from dimenshia....or just simple ignorance of history....of the UNITED STATES. while we are talking about the northern american continent, forgot about the HAITI freedom movement?? how did HAITI become a free nation??

did they blow themselves up?

i do not recall anyone strapping bombs and blowing themsalves up. As a matter of fact the ng was sent really to protect the balcks from crazy southern crackers. Who did more damage to people and property in that era, black people or crazy southern crackas.

My poiny was there can be change without terrorism.

[kramadas]

did they blow themselves up?

i do not recall anyone strapping bombs and blowing themsalves up. As a matter of fact the ng was sent really to protect the balcks from crazy southern crackers. Who did more damage to people and property in that era, black people or crazy southern crackas.

My poiny was there can be change without terrorism.

There can, but then the situations are also quite different. The peoples (both Jewish and Muslim) are quite different, and they let religion (on both sides) dictate a lot of what they do.

We know what the suicide bombers do, but its really quite funny nobody talks about the settlers over there.

[fresinha12]

there are black panther members currently serving life sentences for murder of white people....man shut up do some study and then post! you shoot someone or you blow someone its the same...murder is murder.....black panthers had an armed resistence against the state, wherein they shot and killed people including an FBI agent....so whats the difference if u shoot someone to death or blow them up, whats the difference if you die by capital punishment for your crime, or you kill yourself commiting the crime????

haiti, South Africa, India-Pakistan, bangladesh, the United States all won their freedom thru war, heck in india, gandhi the founder of the non-violence movement had to partner with people who were fighting an armed rebellion against the british....

So for the last time, please no more ignorant posts, educate yourself and then post we can have a decent and intellectual discussion. But if you just post without knowing shit, then I am sorry, you are just a moron with no restitude! no hope to becoming a better human being, no chance that you will ever break out of your middle-ignorant class....

did they blow themselves up?

i do not recall anyone strapping bombs and blowing themsalves up. As a matter of fact the ng was sent really to protect the balcks from crazy southern crackers. Who did more damage to people and property in that era, black people or crazy southern crackas.

My poiny was there can be change without terrorism.

[jtk4]

yeah the situations are different the black people in the south actually had it worse for 200 years then the people in the west bank. There should of been more resentment then there was. And there was alot.

But like i said nobody blew themselves up. There was no real violence compared to the west bank. Change came and we are all better because of it.

[jtk4]

there are black panther members currently serving life sentences for murder of white people....man shut up do some study and then post! you shoot someone or you blow someone its the same...murder is murder.....black panthers had an armed resistence against the state, wherein they shot and killed people including an FBI agent....so whats the difference if u shoot someone to death or blow them up, whats the difference if you die by capital punishment for your crime, or you kill yourself commiting the crime????

haiti, South Africa, India-Pakistan, bangladesh, the United States all won their freedom thru war, heck in india, gandhi the founder of the non-violence movement had to partner with people who were fighting an armed rebellion against the british....

So for the last time, please no more ignorant posts, educate yourself and then post we can have a decent and intellectual discussion. But if you just post without knowing shit, then I am sorry, you are just a moron with no restitude! no hope to becoming a better human being, no chance that you will ever break out of your middle-ignorant class....

Is there a difference between fighting a war and terrorism? Is there a difference between fighting against an armed enemy and blowing up a cafe or school bus. The black panther killed how many, how many members were in the black panthers? Are you saying that they, the panthers, won the rights for black people. If you are you are quite possibly the stupidest person to ever type a complete sentence on this board. And that is quite an accomplishment.