Soldiers in Iraq get to see F9/11. Anti Bush sentiment grows among soldiers

[funwithtreason]

Soldiers in Iraq get to see F9/11. Anti Bush sentiment grows among soldiers

from the September 21, 2004 edition - http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0921/p02s02-usmi.html

A strident minority: anti-Bush US troops in Iraq

Though military personnel lean conservative, some vocally support Kerry - or at least a strategy for swift withdrawal.

By Ann Scott Tyson | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor

WASHINGTON - Inside dusty, barricaded camps around Iraq, groups of American troops in between missions are gathering around screens to view an unlikely choice from the US box office: "Fahrenheit 9-11," Michael Moore's controversial documentary attacking the commander-in-chief.

"Everyone's watching it," says a Marine corporal at an outpost in Ramadi that is mortared by insurgents daily. "It's shaping a lot of people's image of Bush."

The film's prevalence is one sign of a discernible countercurrent among US troops in Iraq - those who blame President Bush for entangling them in what they see as a misguided war. Conventional wisdom holds that the troops are staunchly pro-Bush, and many are. But bitterness over long, dangerous deployments is producing, at a minimum, pockets of support for Democratic candidate Sen. John Kerry, in part because he's seen as likely to withdraw American forces from Iraq more quickly.

"[For] 9 out of 10 of the people I talk to, it wouldn't matter who ran against Bush - they'd vote for them," said a US soldier in the southern city of Najaf, seeking out a reporter to make his views known. "People are so fed up with Iraq, and fed up with Bush."

With only three weeks until an Oct. 11 deadline set for hundreds of thousands of US troops abroad to mail in absentee ballots, this segment of the military vote is important - symbolically, as a reflection on Bush as a wartime commander, and politically, as absentee ballots could end up tipping the balance in closely contested states.

It is difficult to gauge the extent of disaffection with Bush, which emerged in interviews in June and July with ground forces in central, northern, and southern Iraq. No scientific polls exist on the political leanings of currently deployed troops, military experts and officials say.

To be sure, broader surveys of US military personnel and their spouses in recent years indicate they are more likely to be conservative and Republican than the US civilian population - but not overwhelmingly so.

A Military Times survey last December of 933 subscribers, about 30 percent of whom had deployed for the Iraq war, found that 56 percent considered themselves Republican - about the same percentage who approved of Bush's handling of Iraq. Half of those responding were officers, who as a group tend to be more conservative than their enlisted counterparts.

Among officers, who represent roughly 15 percent of today's 1.4 million active duty military personnel, there are about eight Republicans for every Democrat, according to a 1999 survey by Duke University political scientist Peter Feaver. Enlisted personnel, however - a disproportionate number of whom are minorities, a population that tends to lean Democratic - are more evenly split. Professor Feaver estimates that about one third of enlisted troops are Republicans, one third Democrats, and the rest independents, with the latter group growing.

Pockets of ambivalence

"The military continues to be a Bush stronghold, but it's not a stranglehold," Feaver says. Three factors make the military vote more in play for Democrats this year than in 2000, he says: the Iraq war, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's tense relationship with the Army, and Bush's limited ability as an incumbent to make sweeping promises akin to Senator Kerry's pledge to add 40,000 new troops and relieve an overstretched force.

"The military as a whole supports the Iraq war," Mr. Feaver says, noting a historical tendency of troops to back the commander in chief in wartime. "But you can go across the military and find pockets where they are more ambivalent," he says, especially among the National Guard and Reserve. "The war has not gone as swimmingly as they thought, and that has caused disaffection.

Whether representing pockets of opposition to Bush or something bigger, soldiers and marines on Iraq's front lines can be impassioned in their criticism. One Marine officer in Ramadi who had lost several men said he was thinking about throwing his medals over the White House wall.

"Nobody I know wants Bush," says an enlisted soldier in Najaf, adding, "This whole war was based on lies." Like several others interviewed, his animosity centered on a belief that the war lacked a clear purpose even as it took a tremendous toll on US troops, many of whom are in Iraq involuntarily under "stop loss" orders that keep them in the service for months beyond their scheduled exit in order to keep units together during deployments.

"There's no clear definition of why we came here," says Army Spc. Nathan Swink, of Quincy, Ill. "First they said they have WMD and nuclear weapons, then it was to get Saddam Hussein out of office, and then to rebuild Iraq. I want to fight for my nation and for my family, to protect the United States against enemies foreign and domestic, not to protect Iraqi civilians or deal with Sadr's militia," he said.

Specialist Swink, who comes from a family of both Democrats and Republicans, plans to vote for Kerry. "Kerry protested the war in Vietnam. He is the one to end this stuff, to lead to our exit of Iraq," he said.

'We shouldn't be here'

Other US troops expressed feelings of guilt over killing Iraqis in a war they believe is unjust.

"We shouldn't be here," said one Marine infantryman bluntly. "There was no reason for invading this country in the first place. We just came here and [angered people] and killed a lot of innocent people," said the marine, who has seen regular combat in Ramadi. "I don't enjoy killing women and children, it's not my thing."

As with his comrades, the marine accepted some of the most controversial claims of "Fahrenheit 9/11," which critics have called biased. "Bush didn't want to attack [Osama] Bin Laden because he was doing business with Bin Laden's family," he said.

Another marine, Sgt. Christopher Wallace of Pataskala, Ohio, agreed that the film was making an impression on troops. "Marines nowadays want to know stuff. They want to be informed, because we'll be voting out here soon," he said. " 'Fahrenheit 9/11' opened our eyes to things we hadn't seen before." But, he added after a pause, "We still have full faith and confidence in our commander-in-chief. And if John Kerry is elected, he will be our commander in chief."

Getting out the military vote

No matter whom they choose for president, US troops in even the most remote bases in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere overseas are more likely than in 2000 to have an opportunity to vote - and have their votes counted - thanks to a major push by the Pentagon to speed and postmark their ballots. The Pentagon is now expediting ballots for all 1.4 million active-duty military personnel and their 1.3 million voting-age dependents, as well as 3.7 million US civilians living abroad.

"We wrote out a plan of attack on how we are going to address these issues this election year," says Maj. Lonnie Hammack, the lead postal officer for US Central Command, an area covering the Middle East, Central Asia, and North Africa, where more than 225,000 troops and Defense Department personnel serve.

The military has added manpower, flights, and postmark-validating equipment, and given priority to moving ballots - by Humvee or helicopter if necessary - even to far-flung outposts such as those on the Syrian and Pakistani border and Djibouti.

Meanwhile, voting-assistance officers in every military unit are remind- ing troops to vote, as are posters, e-mails, and newspaper and television announcements. Voting booths are also set up at deployment centers in the United States.

"We've had almost 100 percent contact," says Col. Darrell Jones, director of manpower and personnel for Central Command, and 200,000 federal postcard ballot applications have been shipped.

"We encourage our people to vote, not for a certain candidate, but to exercise that right," he said, noting that was especially important as the US military is "out there promoting fledgling democracy in these regions." Many of the younger troops may be voting for the first time, he added.

[tres-b]

Yeah, the soldiers need a good laugh. Why not watch some communist propaganda? Moore is a disgrace. He is a typical "we are smarter than everyone" liberal who believes Americans are dumb enough to believe the lies in his film.

[tres-b]

On another note, I think the huge effort to get all the troops access to voting is pretty amazing. Can you imagine coordinating that operation? There are 100s of thousands of troops deployed around the world. Every one of them can vote if they choose. This is so simple, yet so complicated at the same time.

[ou812]

Yeah, the soldiers need a good laugh. Why not watch some communist propaganda? Moore is a disgrace. He is a typical "we are smarter than everyone" liberal who believes Americans are dumb enough to believe the lies in his film.

So I guess the soldiers over there dying for some stupid ass misguided, agenda-driven war that watch it are "dumb" as well. They're the ones over there seeing what's happening 1st hand...............not you.

[kramadas]

So I guess the soldiers over there dying for some stupid ass misguided, agenda-driven war that watch it are "dumb" as well. They're the ones over there seeing what's happening 1st hand...............not you.

I know, right. So, all this troops who are swayed by the movie, are "dumb" according to this guy, sitting behind his computer and cushy job.

[vicman]

On another note, I think the huge effort to get all the troops access to voting is pretty amazing. Can you imagine coordinating that operation? There are 100s of thousands of troops deployed around the world. Every one of them can vote if they choose. This is so simple, yet so complicated at the same time.

whether the votes actually get counted is another thing all together.

[mindfaqd]

I know, right. So, all this troops who are swayed by the movie, are "dumb" according to this guy, sitting behind his computer and cushy job.

the way u make him sound, u must be typing this from a foxhole ? Last time I checked we are all expressing our opinions from behind a desk. His opinion is a valid as urs.

[kramadas]

the way u make him sound, u must be typing this from a foxhole ? Last time I checked we are all expressing our opinions from behind a desk. His opinion is a valid as urs.

Um, I guess that goes for you too then, huh? As I am also expressing MY opinion.

An opinion is an opinion but there is a line. An opinion that starts degrading troops out in Iraq dying so people like you and him can sit here and express those opinions will not be taken lightly.

[mindfaqd]

Um, I guess that goes for you too then, huh? As I am also expressing MY opinion.

yeah me too. I said that in my last post. U just made his opinion sound like it was invalid because he is at a desk instead of the dessert.

I don't think that those troops who are anti-Bush were swayed by the Michael Moore propoganda machine. They already had opinions on Bush and the war.

I am just anti Michael Moore. Not a fan of that fat liberal piece of shit.

[tres-b]

If you re-read my post you will notice that no one is degraded except Moore.

On another note, do you think the majority of soldiers opinions of Bush will be shaped by this movie? Doubtful. One person saying this is happening does not make it true.

If anyone is swayed by this movie, soldier or otherwise, they are foolish. The movie is propaganda, not a documentary. I will be happy to post a list of the lies that Moore tells in the film if you would like a refresher.

[ou812]

If you re-read my post you will notice that no one is degraded except Moore.

On another note, do you think the majority of soldiers opinions of Bush will be shaped by this movie? Doubtful. One person saying this is happening does not make it true.

If anyone is swayed by this movie, soldier or otherwise, they are foolish. The movie is propaganda, not a documentary. I will be happy to post a list of the lies that Moore tells in the film if you would like a refresher.

OK, so you weren't calling them dumb before. Now you are.

Propaganda, propaganda. You like that word huh? You use it all the time. I have to be honest with you though. 99% of the crap that comes out of our government is propaganda, especially from our wonderful Prez.

[kramadas]

If you re-read my post you will notice that no one is degraded except Moore.

On another note, do you think the majority of soldiers opinions of Bush will be shaped by this movie? Doubtful. One person saying this is happening does not make it true.

If anyone is swayed by this movie, soldier or otherwise, they are foolish. The movie is propaganda, not a documentary. I will be happy to post a list of the lies that Moore tells in the film if you would like a refresher.

Actually, you pretty much implied in your original post that anyone who believes Moore was stupid, thus alluding to the fact that troops swayed by his movie are stupid.

And then in this post, you flat out called them stupid. I think its stupid for people to write off anything they don't believe in as propaganda...as everything in politics is propaganda.

Bravo to those soldiers who are speaking out their mind about their problems with Bush, and bravo to Moore for stirring up controversy and interest in people who might otherwise have not given a shit.

[ou812]

Bravo to those soldiers who are speaking out their mind about their problems with Bush, and bravo to Moore for stirring up controversy and interest in people who might otherwise have not given a shit.

I agreee. Controversy is what gets people thinking. It's what gets people asking questions and making things happen. Turning a blind eye to anything that goes against the establishment and calling it propaganda is foolish if you ask me.

[tres-b]

Anyone who doesnt take a bit of time to read about the lies of F9/11 and then believes it is foolish. This has nothing to do with being a soldier. Again, I question that fact that a large # of troops are being swayed. You have a quote from one guy. Is this a scientific poll? No.

And no, just b/c we disagree does not mean I think you are stupid. I dont agree w/ President Bush on abortion, but I consider him an intelligent guy. At least I didnt call them scumbags or idiots. Ill leave that to the Queen of Crass herself, Theresa. What a nightmare she has turned out to be...

[jtk4]

wait he did not spend that extra time reading that book while we were under attack. Is that a lie, did moore somehow speed up time.

Not everything in that movie is lies.

[mursa]

..Don't ya love how some are fuming about the lies of a overweight film maker , all while the leader of the free world gets a free pass for telling the world 2 huge lies ( wmd's & iraq/alqaeda connection)

.. gotta love em hipocritical sheep !

[ou812]

..Don't ya love how some are fuming about the lies of a overweight film maker , all while the leader of the free world gets a free pass for telling the world 2 huge lies ( wmd's & iraq/alqaeda connection)

.. gotta love em hipocritical sheep !

Yup, yup. I don't know about you, but personally I prefer lies about getting a blowjob and inhaling as opposed to lies that lead to hundreds of thousands of people dead on a battlefield.

[tres-b]

1-Bad intel from Russia, Great Britain and our own network led to the WMD proclamation. Im not giving him a pass. I think its a big deal that there were no WMD. Having said that I would have gone in to remove the leadership anyway

2-Iraq was harboring and continues to be inhabited by terrorists. In fact, one of them just beheaded a man who lives not far from Atlanta(my home).

Kerry has also stated(although he has now blamed bad intel for his opinion) that Iraq posed a serious threat.

Mursa, the sheep comment is getting old. Why dont you focus on facts and opinions rather than personal attacks? It would be far more productive.

[tres-b]

As for the Clinton episode, I dont care who he is throwing it in. That was not the issue. He lied under oath and that is a huge issue.

[mindfaqd]

..Don't ya love how some are fuming about the lies of a overweight film maker , all while the leader of the free world gets a free pass for telling the world 2 huge lies ( wmd's & iraq/alqaeda connection)

.. gotta love em hipocritical sheep !

Don't u love how some liberal assholes have annointed a fat bastard like Michael Moore as a spokesperson ? .............and after the proof that he is not an unbiased or even truthful source of info they still can't admit that the film is garbage.

thats not hypocritical? open up and say BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

[mursa]

As for the Clinton episode, I dont care who he is throwing it in. That was not the issue. He lied under oath and that is a huge issue.

in once hand , one lied under oath about having an affair

on the other , you have one that possibly took a whole nation to War ...

..

..

...and you find them similar or even close in importance ??!!?? LMMFAO !

lost case with u folks ! lol

[tres-b]

I didnt bring up Clinton. I think his actions have little relavence. I addressed it in passing.

Points 1 and 2 were the main part of my message that you glossed over.

[mursa]

Don't u love how some liberal assholes have annointed a fat bastard like Michael Moore as a spokesperson ? .............and after the proof that he is not an unbiased or even truthful source of info they still can't admit that the film is garbage.

thats not hypocritical? open up and say BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

Michael Moore makes MOVIES !!!! ..he doesn't take Nations to war , he doesn't invade sovereign nations upon false accusations ( WMD & al-qaeda ) .

Good lord !!! ....how right handed can you get ??!?! , that you actually compare one's lies to the other .

Congrats ..your monthly edition of is in the mail .

[tres-b]

Mursa,

As I mentioned before, the sheep thing is old.

Thanks,

The Sheep

[ou812]

2-Iraq was harboring and continues to be inhabited by terrorists. In fact, one of them just beheaded a man who lives not far from Atlanta(my home).

FYI - The U.S. does the same damn thing. One of the highest concentrations of terrorist cell activity is right here in the NY/NJ Metro area. The government keeps tabs on it and knows it's there, but they don't do anything about it. So what's your point?