Israel is Out of Control!

[sobeton]

it is one thing to protect your people from terrorism. it is quite another when you over step your bounds and kill innocent civilians including children. in essence becoming a terrorist yourself. Israel’s actions amount to careless disregard for human life, and a blatant and brutal attempt to intimidate innocent Palestinians prior to Israel pulling out of the Gaza. the fact that US made weapons and US Tax $$$ are being used for these assaults, and the US government sits back and does nothing is upsetting and rather embarrassing.

Palestinians: At least 8 killed in Israeli Gaza operation

GAZA CITY (CNN) -- Palestinian sources said at least eight Palestinians were killed in clashes Monday -- the sixth day of an Israeli military operation to end Palestinian missile strikes from Gaza into Israel.

Among the dead was an 18-year-old woman killed by Israeli fire in Gaza's Jabalya refugee camp, Palestinian medical sources said. Jabalya is the largest refugee camp in Gaza, housing some 100,000 Palestinians. Israel had no word on the report.

Two other Palestinians were killed in separate incidents in the Jabalya camp, security sources said. Israel Defense Forces said soldiers shot a Palestinian attempting to lay explosives in one incident. No details were available in the other.

In a separate incident in southern Gaza, a 4-year-old boy was shot and killed inside his home by gunfire from a nearby Israeli army watch tower in the village of Khuzaa near Khan Yunis, Palestinian sources said. The Israeli army said it was checking the report.

Israeli shelling killed four Palestinians Monday in Beit Lahya in northern Gaza, Palestinian security sources said.

The IDF said troops targeted militants who were trying to activate an explosive device against Israeli forces.

Israel launched the "Days of Penitence" operation Wednesday after a Palestinian Qassam missile hit the southern Israeli town of Sderot near the Gaza border, killing two Israeli children.

Israeli commanders said they will establish a 5.5-mile (9-kilometer) buffer zone, a move that would be beyond the range of the crudely made Qassam rockets.

In other regional violence Monday, an Israeli was lightly wounded when two Qassam rockets were fired at Sderot.

East of Gaza City, an Israeli airstrike wounded two Palestinians, including a commander of the military wing of Hamas, Palestinian medical sources said. The commander was on the street when he was hit.

Hamas is a Palestinian Islamic fundamentalist organization. The group's military wing, Izzedine al Qassam, has admitted responsibility for terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians as well as attacks against the Israeli military. Israel and the U.S. State Department consider Hamas a terrorist organization.

In the six days of the Israeli operation, more than 70 Palestinians -- including civilians and militants -- have been killed, Palestinian sources said.

U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan and the Arab League on Sunday condemned the Israeli action.

Annan denounced the escalation in Israeli attacks over the past few days, and Arab League Secretary-General Amr Moussa said they violated international law.

The league decided Sunday to ask the U.N. Security Council to intervene.

In Jerusalem, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said the operations were necessary to protect Israelis from Palestinian attacks.

"The operation will take place as long as there are Qassams, rockets and mortars coming out of the Gaza Strip," said Yigal Palmor, a spokesman for the Israeli Foreign Ministry.

The Israeli army said about 30 Qassam rocket attacks had been launched into Israel or at Israeli settlements during the past month.

Israeli forces have surrounded Jabalya as well as Khan Yunis in southern Gaza.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/04/mideast.gaza/index.html

[mursa]

Casualtie count :

Israel : 4-5

Palestinians : 70 !!!

pathetic how some still call this a WAR ............more like a massacre to me .

[igloo]

Casualtie count :

Israel : 4-5

Palestinians : 70 !!!

pathetic how some still call this a WAR ............more like a massacre to me .

Nothing but a torrential flow of bullshit from you

[kramadas]

Agreed - more of a massacre than anything else, though this particular time, for a change, a lot of the people killed are militants (as opposed to before where it was like 4-5 civilians killed for each militant killed).

My problem with this "offensive" is the number of houses that the IDF is destroying in order to "widen the road". NOte, these aren't houses where militants stayed or anything, these are innocent people here, living in one of the most poverty stricken places on this earth. And do you think the IDF is going to compensate them for their losses. Yeah right!

[mursa]

Nothing but a torrential flow of bullshit from you

Nothing but olive sized feces droppings from sheep like you ...

..

.. Neil Cavuto is on , hurry up !

[sobeton]

there is a real question of the accuracy of the information coming from Israel; in terms of killing actual militants. it's interesting Israel will make statements about militants killed, while disregarding the civilians killed. further, I take issue with a country for instance that shoots at children ,in response to them throwing rocks at a tank; which is about to bulldoze there house. who is going to pay for the destruction of legitimate houses caught in the crossfire? why can the US launch an attack without endangering civilians in most cases, yet Israel can’t? why is Israel crossing boarders to murder people and endanger more lives? this a massacre of mostly innocent Palestinians which should not be tolerated.

[igloo]

Nothing but olive sized feces droppings from sheep like you ...

..

.. Neil Cavuto is on , hurry up !

Wow ..a Fox News joke combined with a sheep reference...your intellect is spellbinding..

....what a bafoon

[mursa]

there is a real question of the accuracy of the information coming from Israel; in terms of killing actual militants. it's interesting Israel will make statements about militants killed, while disregarding the civilians killed. further, I take issue with a country for instance that shoots at children ,in response to them throwing rocks at a tank; which is about to bulldoze there house. who is going to pay for the destruction of legitimate houses caught in the crossfire? why can the US launch an attack without endangering civilians in most cases, yet Israel can’t? why is Israel crossing boarders to murder people and endanger more lives? this a massacre of mostly innocent Palestinians which should not be tolerated.

Thanks for elaborating more or less what i was saying/implying ...........but for Sheeploo it remains "bullshit" ..

lol

[igloo]

Thanks for elaborating more or less what i was saying/implying ...........but for Sheeploo it remains "bullshit" ..

lol

riiiiiiiiight..... ......

[ghhhhhost]

Middle East Conflict : Win-Win situation

[CHRles]

Hey Sobeton, you live in Miami right? What do you think the US would do if a couple of kids in Miami or Key West were to die from a bomb or rocket based out of Cuba? How do you think the US would respond? How well do you know your Amerrican history, and the 1960s decade?

And another thing, if you really believe "innocent" Iraqis aren't dying at the hands of coalition forces than you're VERY naive.

Why don't you ever post about how sad it is when buses blow up in Israel? Why do you always focus on the Palestinians? Why do you usually fail to mention that most of the Palestinians that get killed are militants, while most of the Israelis are not?

Why don't you post about all the wonderful Democratic Arabic countries in the Middle East? Oh yeah! there are none. Israel is the only Democracy there.

Or how about doing your research on how countries like Egypt, Jordan, and Syria have all dealt with Palestinians or rebels in their own countries? You think Israel is bad, well when those governments feel threatened they may wipe out entire villages. The thing is, since they're not a democracy they'll usually have an easier time concealing it from the media.

How many of his own people has Sadam killed over the years? Or the Hamas itself, how many Arabs and Palestinians have groups like the Hamas and the Jihad helped kill? They put them in the line of fire, b/c they don't give a crap about their own people.

If you sympathize with the Palestinian cause so much then just move there, and see if you can do something about it. See how you'd be treated there, or in any other Arabic country for that matter.

Going back to 9/11, what was going through your head when you saw all those Palestinians and their KIDS dancing in the streets once they saw the twin towers fall down?

Oh yeah, and has everyone all of a sudden forgotten all the kidnappings of Westerners still going on in Iraq? Guess who networks with those very kidnappers - that's right! Militant Palestiniant fractions, the type that Israel is trying to take out. That in part is why the US, the UK, and even Russia (after the recent Chechnya episode) are showing sympathy for Israel, and not for the so called "helpless" other side.

Now I'll admit that the war on Iraq is indeed a big mess, but it was about more than just taking out Sadam. Iran's becoming a bigger and bigger threat to the Western World, and it seemed like after 9/11 so was Saudi Arabia. Since Saudi Arabia is considered an ally of the US, we obviously coudn't have gone to war with them, despite the fact that they harbor terrorists. But the US was able to send a strong message to both Iran and Saudi Arabia if it was based out of Iraq - a country which just happens to be located smack dab in the middle of these two potentially dangerous countries.

The truth is that the American government is simply much braver than most of its European counterparts. If America had bases in Europe during the 1930s then its possible that World War II could have been avoided, and much of Eastern Europe might not have been forced into Communism following the war.

Remember, countries like France who are against the war in Iraq, didn't do enough to prevent Hitler and Nazi Germany when they still had the chance. Italy SIDED with Germany. And Russia? They like Italy were allies of Nazi Germany until Hitler double crossed them. Oh, and Spain had just finished its own civil war so they just stayed out of it. Oh yeah, sounds like Europe sure knew what it was doing...

So maybe the US isn't so bad for invading Iraq the way it has, and maybe the UK isn't either for siding with us. Maybe the rest of Europe is just politically as DUMB and pretentious as it was back in the 30s, and maybe, just maybe, someday you'll begin to realize just how much more complicated the situation is in Israel than you view it.

[sobeton]

Hey Sobeton, you live in Miami right? What do you think the US would do if a couple of kids in Miami or Key West were to die from a bomb or rocket based out of Cuba? How do you think the US would respond? How well do you know your Amerrican history, and the 1960s decade?

And another thing, if you really believe "innocent" Iraqis aren't dying at the hands of coalition forces than you're VERY naive.

Why don't you ever post about how sad it is when buses blow up in Israel? Why do you always focus on the Palestinians? Why do you usually fail to mention that most of the Palestinians that get killed are militants, while most of the Israelis are not?

Why don't you post about all the wonderful Democratic Arabic countries in the Middle East? Oh yeah! there are none. Israel is the only Democracy there.

Or how about doing your research on how countries like Egypt, Jordan, and Syria have all dealt with Palestinians or rebels in their own countries? You think Israel is bad, well when those governments feel threatened they may wipe out entire villages. The thing is, since they're not a democracy they'll usually have an easier time concealing it from the media.

How many of his own people has Sadam killed over the years? Or the Hamas itself, how many Arabs and Palestinians have groups like the Hamas and the Jihad helped kill? They put them in the line of fire, b/c they don't give a crap about their own people.

If you sympathize with the Palestinian cause so much then just move there, and see if you can do something about it. See how you'd be treated there, or in any other Arabic country for that matter.

Going back to 9/11, what was going through your head when you saw all those Palestinians and their KIDS dancing in the streets once they saw the twin towers fall down?

Oh yeah, and has everyone all of a sudden forgotten all the kidnappings of Westerners still going on in Iraq? Guess who networks with those very kidnappers - that's right! Militant Palestiniant fractions, the type that Israel is trying to take out. That in part is why the US, the UK, and even Russia (after the recent Chechnya episode) are showing sympathy for Israel, and not for the so called "helpless" other side.

Now I'll admit that the war on Iraq is indeed a big mess, but it was about more than just taking out Sadam. Iran's becoming a bigger and bigger threat to the Western World, and it seemed like after 9/11 so was Saudi Arabia. Since Saudi Arabia is considered an ally of the US, we obviously coudn't have gone to war with them, despite the fact that they harbor terrorists. But the US was able to send a strong message to both Iran and Saudi Arabia if it was based out of Iraq - a country which just happens to be located smack dab in the middle of these two potentially dangerous countries.

The truth is that the American government is simply much braver than most of its European counterparts. If America had bases in Europe during the 1930s then its possible that World War II could have been avoided, and much of Eastern Europe might not have been forced into Communism following the war.

Remember, countries like France who are against the war in Iraq, didn't do enough to prevent Hitler and Nazi Germany when they still had the chance. Italy SIDED with Germany. And Russia? They like Italy were allies of Nazi Germany until Hitler double crossed them. Oh, and Spain had just finished its own civil war so they just stayed out of it. Oh yeah, sounds like Europe sure knew what it was doing...

So maybe the US isn't so bad for invading Iraq the way it has, and maybe the UK isn't either for siding with us. Maybe the rest of Europe is just politically as DUMB and pretentious as it was back in the 30s, and maybe, just maybe, someday you'll begin to realize just how much more complicated the situation is in Israel than you view it.

being very aware of the history of the 1960’s; was there some point you where trying to make:confused: naturally I would expect the US to respond to any attacks upon its citizens. in my post I never implied that innocent people don’t die in confrontations.infact if you took the time to read what I said "why can the US launch an attack without endangering civilians in most cases, yet Israel can’t?". cearly when I said "in most cases" I am well aware that innocent people get caught in the crossfire; however those casualties can clearly be minimized. it is Naive, to believe that your assaults on a group of people should be launched without regard to the safety of those who may be caught in the crossfire. my focus on this most recent assault by Israel is because; of the unmitigated disregard to the safety of innocent Palestinians, and the crossing of borders to attack your alleged enemy. in spite your spin rhetoric which focuses on everything under the sun, but the actual thread topic "Israel Is out Of Control". my focus remains on Israel's assault on Palestinians . my REAL sympathy is with innocent people caught in the crossfire on both sides.

Israel's assaults on Palestinians endangers not only innocent Palestinians, but also innocent Israelis who will surely be the focus of any retaliatory action against Israel. the mixed signals the US sends by vetoing a resolution by the UN to condemn Israel's actions, while the Secretary of State calls for an end to Israel's action in Gaza ;shows the ambiguous american policy towards Israel which does more harm then good. it is also quite interesting that Israel has chosen now to sit down with the Palestinians, to get them to agree to stop launching rockets into Israel. this is something Israel could have done days ago if they really wanted to. seems to me Israel is launching a little power play in the Gaza to save face, intimate, and isolate since it’'s very obvious they will have to pull of out some territories in that area. thanks for the history lesson, but I really don’t need it.. history has lessons; which clearly nether side has learned. if you live by the sword, expect to die by the sword. it's a vicious cycle which I don’t see ending any time soon..

[kramadas]

Hey Sobeton, you live in Miami right? What do you think the US would do if a couple of kids in Miami or Key West were to die from a bomb or rocket based out of Cuba? How do you think the US would respond? How well do you know your Amerrican history, and the 1960s decade?

And another thing, if you really believe "innocent" Iraqis aren't dying at the hands of coalition forces than you're VERY naive.

Why don't you ever post about how sad it is when buses blow up in Israel? Why do you always focus on the Palestinians? Why do you usually fail to mention that most of the Palestinians that get killed are militants, while most of the Israelis are not?

Why don't you post about all the wonderful Democratic Arabic countries in the Middle East? Oh yeah! there are none. Israel is the only Democracy there.

Or how about doing your research on how countries like Egypt, Jordan, and Syria have all dealt with Palestinians or rebels in their own countries? You think Israel is bad, well when those governments feel threatened they may wipe out entire villages. The thing is, since they're not a democracy they'll usually have an easier time concealing it from the media.

How many of his own people has Sadam killed over the years? Or the Hamas itself, how many Arabs and Palestinians have groups like the Hamas and the Jihad helped kill? They put them in the line of fire, b/c they don't give a crap about their own people.

If you sympathize with the Palestinian cause so much then just move there, and see if you can do something about it. See how you'd be treated there, or in any other Arabic country for that matter.

Going back to 9/11, what was going through your head when you saw all those Palestinians and their KIDS dancing in the streets once they saw the twin towers fall down?

Oh yeah, and has everyone all of a sudden forgotten all the kidnappings of Westerners still going on in Iraq? Guess who networks with those very kidnappers - that's right! Militant Palestiniant fractions, the type that Israel is trying to take out. That in part is why the US, the UK, and even Russia (after the recent Chechnya episode) are showing sympathy for Israel, and not for the so called "helpless" other side.

Now I'll admit that the war on Iraq is indeed a big mess, but it was about more than just taking out Sadam. Iran's becoming a bigger and bigger threat to the Western World, and it seemed like after 9/11 so was Saudi Arabia. Since Saudi Arabia is considered an ally of the US, we obviously coudn't have gone to war with them, despite the fact that they harbor terrorists. But the US was able to send a strong message to both Iran and Saudi Arabia if it was based out of Iraq - a country which just happens to be located smack dab in the middle of these two potentially dangerous countries.

The truth is that the American government is simply much braver than most of its European counterparts. If America had bases in Europe during the 1930s then its possible that World War II could have been avoided, and much of Eastern Europe might not have been forced into Communism following the war.

Remember, countries like France who are against the war in Iraq, didn't do enough to prevent Hitler and Nazi Germany when they still had the chance. Italy SIDED with Germany. And Russia? They like Italy were allies of Nazi Germany until Hitler double crossed them. Oh, and Spain had just finished its own civil war so they just stayed out of it. Oh yeah, sounds like Europe sure knew what it was doing...

So maybe the US isn't so bad for invading Iraq the way it has, and maybe the UK isn't either for siding with us. Maybe the rest of Europe is just politically as DUMB and pretentious as it was back in the 30s, and maybe, just maybe, someday you'll begin to realize just how much more complicated the situation is in Israel than you view it.

80% of your post is about US-IRaq, out of which maybe 10% has relevance to this thread. No-one said there are no civilian casualties in Iraq, but like Sobeton said, the US does a LOT more to minimize the casualties than Israel. ISrael does not give a shit about the Palestinians - in fact, by their very actions they're only feeding the terrorists power. How many dozens of families are now homeless because Israel decided not to take the main road, but instead decided to widen other roads for their tanks by razing rows and rows of houses. And yeah, an appropriate response to kidds throwing rocks at armored tanks is machine gun fire. "Most" of them were not militants, only a little over half of them(depending on which news report you read). Also, the US brings to justice all US soldiers who have committed crimes against innocent Iraqis - to this day I have not heard of a single Israeli brought to justice for their crimes against innocent Palestinians. Or against foreign journalists.

Other than that, Sobeton laid it out nicely. Promises have been broken on both sides, and to think Israel is the "victim" of all this is to be extremely naive.

[mursa]

BBC world news & RTP portuguese news : 35 out 70 palestinians killed were Civilians .

..

[CHRles]

Civilians huh? You mean like the teenage girl mentioned here:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/06/mideast.gaza/index.html

The Israeli army did what it was supposed to do. They shot at her b/c she left a suspicious package at the checkpoint, and ran away when troops tried to confront her. Innocent my ass. Going to school? More like trying to school troops on how to blow people up.

For goodness sake it clearly states that at least 30 rockets were fired towards Israel during the month of September, and yet here you guys are surprised by Israel's reactions when one of those rockets finally kills a couple of innocent kids?!

Pfffttt resume peace talks? What peace talks? With terrorists? The Palestinians never make good on peace talks, and never halt their attacks. Even going back to the early to mid 90s during a lot of the peace negotioations the Hamas continually found ways to blow up buses all across the state of Israel. So what good do these peace talks do?

These terrorists are always trying to push the envelope, see how much they can get away with. If Israel wouldn't have responded harshly in the past week that would have just encouraged terrotists to do more of the same. Just like if America hadn't stepped up its fight against terrotists there would have already been more 9/11's in this country.

I guess you guys are implying that the US should try and negotiate peace talks with Bin Laden. Maybe you guys are naive enough to believe that if Bin Laden says he won't launch more attacks on US soil than all will be right and safe in this world. Because really, that is the same logic you're touting for the Israeli situation with the Hamas.

Everything I wrote down in my previous post is a simple game of connect the dots, and looking at the bigger picture. I'm sorry if you guys can't see some of these connections, but I belive they are inter-related.

[mursa]

..

.... I saw that number on a number of international news media outlets ., I don't pay much attention to US run media outlets when it comes to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict ..

..

... Don't ya think it's obvious that when you target a car with militants in a busy Gaza street , that there will be collateral casualties ? ..common sense man .

[sobeton]

Civilians huh? You mean like the teenage girl mentioned here:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/06/mideast.gaza/index.html

The Israeli army did what it was supposed to do. They shot at her b/c she left a suspicious package at the checkpoint, and ran away when troops tried to confront her. Innocent my ass. Going to school? More like trying to school troops on how to blow people up.

For goodness sake it clearly states that at least 30 rockets were fired towards Israel during the month of September, and yet here you guys are surprised by Israel's reactions when one of those rockets finally kills a couple of innocent kids?!

Pfffttt resume peace talks? What peace talks? With terrorists? The Palestinians never make good on peace talks, and never halt their attacks. Even going back to the early to mid 90s during a lot of the peace negotioations the Hamas continually found ways to blow up buses all across the state of Israel. So what good do these peace talks do?

These terrorists are always trying to push the envelope, see how much they can get away with. If Israel wouldn't have responded harshly in the past week that would have just encouraged terrotists to do more of the same. Just like if America hadn't stepped up its fight against terrotists there would have already been more 9/11's in this country.

I guess you guys are implying that the US should try and negotiate peace talks with Bin Laden. Maybe you guys are naive enough to believe that if Bin Laden says he won't launch more attacks on US soil than all will be right and safe in this world. Because really, that is the same logic you're touting for the Israeli situation with the Hamas.

Everything I wrote down in my previous post is a simple game of connect the dots, and looking at the bigger picture. I'm sorry if you guys can't see some of these connections, but I belive they are inter-related.

all Palestinians are terrorist? you skirt around the issues; without addressing the clear issues at hand. your arguments are feeble, and seem to be nothing but rubbish parallels to the issues at hand. in the very simplest terms, the Israeli army's actions are above what is necessary to safeguard Israel. intimidation, abuse of power, and attempting to disfranchise people is not what a supposedly democratic country should be doing IMO.

we are not living in the past we live in the now.. right now there is a real serious problem ,and Israel's solution is pathetic and unnecessary.