The chaos that is Organized Religion

[Evan]

I just read a story online about how a kid's parents wouldn't let him live a regular life because they were devout Christians. That kinda touched a nerve, and I feel like sharing what I have to say with you guys.

I ran away from home when I was 14 (long story..won't get into that now). I lived at a runaway shelter for a while, until a Jewish family took me in (I had come from a non religious Jewish home). The Jewish family was nice to me, but very religious. I had to go to temple with them EVERY morning before I went to school. I had to eat kosher. I had to do other crappy Jewish bullshit. But I went along with it, because they had taken me in. Then one morning, I was sick and told them that I wasn't going to go to school that morning. I could barely even make it from the bed to the bathroom. They told me fine, but I still had to go to temple to pray. I asked them why the hell I would go to temple, if I can't even go to school. They told me that i HAD to go. I told them no. They yelled at me for 20 minutes. Then they left and I thought that was the end of it. Nope....They got some Jewish fanatics from the temple to come into my room, and flip the bed upside down while I was still on it. There I was on the floor with a bed upside down on top of me. Long story short...I went to temple that morning. But any hope of me EVER becoming Jewish died. I hated Judaism after that.

Any religion where they have to FORCE you to be faithful is bullshit. Isn't the whole point of faith is to really believe in what you are praying for? The fact that people get born in to a religion because of what their parents believe in is also bullshit. I'm gonna let my kids choose what they believe in. I look at all these huge churches in the Midwest (I live in NY) and I see all these young people preaching the scriptures and trying to convert other people. But if they hadn't been born to that...say they had been born to devil worshipers in California, they wouldn't have a thing to say. Look at all the pain that religion has brought to the Middle East. The persecution though the centuries. There would have been no Holocaust, no Salem Witch Trials, no religious wars where one faith deemed it necessary to convert or wipe out another faith.

Religion is just away for the sheep (that's us) to be herded easily. Without faith, we wouldn't believe in Heaven or Hell. Without that belief, there would be utter chaos. That is one of the main justifications religious leaders use to explain their preachiness. But, what if all religion is untrue. What if the bible was really written by some L. Ron Hubbard of the past and not by God. What if life was really started in the oceans as amoebas and not by Adam and Eve. What if there was no afterlife. That when u died...there was blackness.... No consciousness. I think that is a bigger scare to people then the whole Heaven and Hell bit. Think about it. Instead of telling a Catholic man, that if he commits a crime, and doesn't confess he might go to Hell, you tell him that if he commits a crime he will be executed. No jail...No afterlife. That's it. This way, the world would be crime free. And all this bullshit about people being immoral would die down. Clubs would prosper. Drugs would be free. People would be getting laid more often. Having fun. Not having to whip and cut themselves because they looked at a girl in an improper way.

That's what I believe anyway. And one day, I'm gonna save enough money and start my own Non religion Church. I'm gonna preach my beliefs and have people send me money to broadcast my words across the world. And I won't steal the money and put it in my own pocket (well...maybe just a little bit). And hopefully, one day people will take the sticks out of their holy asses, and start having fun. Life is an adventure. There are no second chances. No redemption when it all ends. If you didn't do something when you had a chance to, you might never have that chance again. Anyway...that's just my belief. You don't have to go along with it. But thank you for at least giving this a chance to break through the chaos that is organized religion.

Evan

[stacychase]

Some of what you say makes some sense to me. However for many people, religion brings them inner peace. There are many people who live in this world, who believe and they do not preach. Religion does not cause the problems in this world, people cause the problems. I had someone tell me one time, that it was there choice to believe how they chose and by believing they felt better and after a lifetime of believing if they died and there was no after life, what had they lost??? They had still lived a great life, however if I chose not to believe and when I died and there turned out to be an after life, what had I lost??? I think it is all a matter of choice and we should all be free to choose! My biggest complaint about over the top religious people is 7:00 a.m. when I am riding the subway and they are standing there with the Bible open, preaching! I sure as hell do not want to hear all of that at 7:00 in the morning.

I hope by venting, that you feel better. I heard you loud and clear and I am sorry that you suffered. Have a good one.

[back2basics]

I could go on all day about this, but people are as entitled to their faith as i am to my sceptisism.

'There but for the grace of god, too much love is worse than non at all.' sums up your situation well.

[apdiddy]

here's my take on religion, most of them anyway. back in the early days of man, people were struggling and needed something to believe in, or else mankinds will to live would have withered. this is where the concept of god was invented, in my opinion, by a few who wanted to control the many. And since those early days, these few have fabricated stories, killed millions, and robbed everyone to stay in power. those who blindly believe in religion in this day and age are naive to say the least. if there is a god, he/she certainly doesnt need one to go to a temple everyday to worship him, nor does he need your money, nor does he need the idiots who claim to be his voice. and as far as getting morals go, one's family should be providing the morals for one at a young age, and this should carry down from generation to generation. How the fuck can one justify strapping a bomn to one's self and killing innocent people in the name of god? bottom line, religions are bullshit, with the exception of those which preach being true to yourself and finding god within yourself. i believe eyeryone is god of their own existance. and if there is a supreme being, i doubt i will be considered any less in his/her eyes because i didnt spend half my life praying to him in some hope of getting on his/her good side upon deceasing...

------------------

chronic is the answer...

[PinkFloyd40]

Originally posted by p00h:

here's my take on religion, most of them anyway. back in the early days of man, people were struggling and needed something to believe in, or else mankinds will to live would have withered. this is where the concept of god was invented, in my opinion, by a few who wanted to control the many. And since those early days, these few have fabricated stories, killed millions, and robbed everyone to stay in power. those who blindly believe in religion in this day and age are naive to say the least. if there is a god, he/she certainly doesnt need one to go to a temple everyday to worship him, nor does he need your money, nor does he need the idiots who claim to be his voice. and as far as getting morals go, one's family should be providing the morals for one at a young age, and this should carry down from generation to generation. How the fuck can one justify strapping a bomn to one's self and killing innocent people in the name of god? bottom line, religions are bullshit, with the exception of those which preach being true to yourself and finding god within yourself. i believe eyeryone is god of their own existance. and if there is a supreme being, i doubt i will be considered any less in his/her eyes because i didnt spend half my life praying to him in some hope of getting on his/her good side upon deceasing...

Descartes would have a field day w/ this...

------------------

"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they never use" -Soren Kierkegaard

"People who know little are usually great talkers, while men who know much say little." -Rousseau

"One must learn to be a sponge if one wants to be loved by hearts that overflow." -Frederich Neitzsche 2-Brandie&Rob-11

[Evan]

The peanut butter and jelly was from home. My parents didn't beleive that the cold cuts or other kinds of sandiwiches were kosher enough...this was before "Empire" food.

Evan

[mstill11]

I worship the god known as Twilo and all his saints that play on various Friday nights.

St. Sasha the Messiah

Digweed, the patron saint of beats

Carl Cox, the prodigal son

Denny Howells, Created from sashas rib

Danny Cheetos-Satan himself

------------------

Make love to yourself like no one is watching!!!

[mstill11]

Racist Religious Joke:

How do we know that Adam wasnt Black?

Ever try to get a rib from a black guy??

[bryant_gumble]

Well as an asiatic black man decendant from the motherland, I am extremely offended by your joke, however due to the fact that I am an overbearing wanna be cracker I agree on many levels.

Long live carlton banks

[mareluna]

This is in no way a circumspect view on religion. (just tidbits... responding to evan's post...)

Evan--

First off, I'm not an expert on religions... but i'd like to think i have some type of formal and informal education on Christianity (I'm a practicing Roman Catholic) First off, God didn't write the Bible.. chosen prophets, apostles were divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit to write the Bible (hence, there are many different interpretations of different stories, accounts, etc., which has, in turn, led to many controversies over the validity or correctnes in the interpretation of the Bible.) But i just wanted to clear that up for one...

Your post might have been in good interests but... ur stance on ur "non-religion" is kinda backwards... i agree that religion has given people meaning to their otherwise clockwork life, and that faith has made people scared of the afterlife and hence, people want to become moral bc they want to go to heaven... but if there were no religions, no afterlife and whatnot-- how could that make a perfect world, as u suggested? what u're advocating is complete and total chaos through means of hedonism.. if there were no religion/afterlife, wouldn't everyone just not care and do anything and everything to enjoy themselves to the max, since there would be nothing else to live for? ..your approach seemed serious at first (and i was interested in reading ur post) but then it turned almost to a fanatic's religion.. if i took u seriously at the end of ur post, i'd prally see u in times sq. handing me a flyer on how ur non religious religion is the one we should convert to lol.. but back to my point-- what happened to u in ur jewish family was by no means right.. people should not be forced into a religion... but u also have to take into consideration that people are not perfect and therefore there is no perfect religion.. we all interpret things differently, which obviously causes disagreements between people to all different degrees.. we all have some distorted view on religion due to the fact that we can't ever find the perfect (true/right) answer. even tho what happened to u is hard to let go of, u can't generalize and develop a hatred for a certain religion because of ur jewish family's interpretation of judaism.

futhermore.. i think it's kewl to let ur kids choose what religion they want to be.. but u have to realize that u have to guide them along the right way until the time is right to let them search arbitrarily for their version of the truth.. and believe it or not, it's easier to teach them to believe/follow in a certain faith/religion than to let them go on their own and find one that they think is suitable for them... there's a very thin line between ethics/morals and religion. education is the key. i wish i knew so much more so i can make a more valid point but that'll come with more time.. well, i hope it shed some light on the matter adios.. peace --daniela

------------------

[ReginaP]

Well said mareluna See, a Jew and a Roman Catholic agreeing...no wars...

------------------

=)

[bmlewis]

What gets me most about organized religion is this taboo about criticizing or "bashing" it. We live in a country where thought and criticism is supposedly encouraged. Organized religion has built its power by fostering this taboo of taking it on. If you really buy into your choice of organized religion someone elses criticism of it should not really bother you. I don't reallt wanna get into it but I've always found this funny.

Fear any organization that won't allow you to criticize it.

[Evan]

Wow Mareluna...good response. Two things though. First: I am pretty sure that Jews believe that God dictated the bible to Moses who wrote it and delivered it unto his people. And this was good. And then they sacrificed a lamb. And this was also good.... Then God spoketh unto... Whoah..getting off track...

Second: There might be a little chaos in the beginning, but I think that in peoples hearts, they'll know right from wrong. We'll have man judge man, instead of waiting for God to judge man. We could have stricter rules. Like if a man is a phycotic murderer, he should get executed. People would fall into line and keep themselves straight. The world would be a more immoral place...That would be sure. Husbands and wifes that were just with each other, would have 3somes, People would stop being afraid of technology and calling it the devils work, people would be more inclined to explore space and see if there is anything out there.

Let's take a scenario. This is out there, but try it out. Imagine that in a year, we find signs of intelligent life out there. We find out that these beings actually created us from splicing DNA, and left a colony on our planet thousands of years ago. But somehow, someway, they had lost touch with us, until now. Now here is the question. Are we going to try to preach to them about a God in the heavens? Are we going to tell them that they must be mistaken because God created us? Are preachers going to call these non-godworshipping aliens the Devil? If yhou ever saw the movie Contact, or read the book, you'll know what I mean. In that story, Carl Sagan shows us a American government that thinks it is important to send a religious man to meet aliens. To make us look like a backwards tribe in the boondocks of Africa that still beleives in Voodoo and the boogie man.

Now, I don't want you to think I'm this big nut that beleives in life out there, and listens to SETI Sattelites all day...cause I'm not...and I don't.... But I like to have an open mind.... As they say in that movie... "If we are alone out there....What a waste of space."

Evan

[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 12-05-2000).]

[Abstrakt]

Originally posted by Evan:

You have the Muslims that beleive that any religion but theres are infidels.

Bro, I hear what you are trying to say, but before making comments like that you should do your research. That is 100% untrue. And whoever told you that is a big idiot.

Just clarifying

- Ali

------------------

This weeks gigs:

Thursday - My Room

Friday - My Basement

PM for Guestlist

[ReginaP]

Originally posted by bmlewis:

What gets me most about organized religion is this taboo about criticizing or "bashing" it. We live in a country where thought and criticism is supposedly encouraged. Organized religion has built its power by fostering this taboo of taking it on. If you really buy into your choice of organized religion someone elses criticism of it should not really bother you. I don't reallt wanna get into it but I've always found this funny.

Fear any organization that won't allow you to criticize it.

Nobody said that criticizing or evaluating organized religion is wrong. What people were trying to point out was that there are intelligent ways to do so (which parts of Evan's posts reflect) and unintelligent ways to do so (calling beliefs and rituals 'crappy' or not having correct info as Abstract pointed out). Criticism doesn't bother me as long as the facts are correct & presented in a coherent manner...to each their own

------------------

=)

[bmlewis]

Originally posted by ReginaP:

Nobody said that criticizing or evaluating organized religion is wrong. What people were trying to point out was that there are intelligent ways to do so (which parts of Evan's posts reflect) and unintelligent ways to do so (calling beliefs and rituals 'crappy' or not having correct info as Abstract pointed out). Criticism doesn't bother me as long as the facts are correct & presented in a coherent manner...to each their own

My comments weren't directed at a particular post or person, more towards the organizations. I'm all about individual freedoms. I just find that many folks won't get up in arms when certain institutions are accused of being crappy, but to say such a thing about a religion is often termed offensive.

[dzadza]

I don't believe in a god that I need to worship.

-Clawfinger

[blueangel]

Originally posted by bmlewis:

My comments weren't directed at a particular post or person, more towards the organizations. I'm all about individual freedoms. I just find that many folks won't get up in arms when certain institutions are accused of being crappy, but to say such a thing about a religion is often termed offensive.

But isn't human nature to defend what you believe. You have a temple where you go to worship and pray . . . and somebody comes in to say it's crappy . . . of course you're going to be offended. It's only human.

It's one thing to express your belief of there being no god, but it's another thing to bash it.

BlueAngel

------------------

“The grass may be greener on the other side of the fence, but you still have to mow it.” - Anonymous

[bmlewis]

It's not that I question someone defending their belief or responding to someone's criticism. Again, it just seems when it comes to religion the act of criticizing it is not tolerated.

I happen to be one of the folks that frequents Twilo. I would never stop or want to stop someone from expressing their belief that Twilo is crappy, although I would defend the place. That's the difference.

I only wonder why religion is so often taboo to criticize.

And just making conversation. Guess it's working.

[wizard]

to have faith, a set of beliefs, a moral guideline to follow, are all admirable traits.

the basis of an organized religion is not necessarily a evil thing from the beginning, or was it ever intended for anything but the good of "man".

the idea of the "church"... not the building and not in the literal sense of the word, but the entity of the church itself is a hypocrisy.

thousands of years provide millions of examples of the church not "practicing what it preaches".

religion is not a bad thing, but blind faith and ignorance are. faith doesn't run a church, money does. essentially people buy forgiveness for their sins, and i for one don't believe that was in the fundamental writtings of any theology from day one...

uuhhmm, that's enough for now....

be cool

stephen

------------------

we must cultivate our gardens...

[ooana]

I've no problem with God, it's his/her press agents that I've got issues with.

Organized religion has its place for some people, but anything to an extreme (which is clearly what you experienced and continue to experience, Evan) is unhealthy under any circumstance.

I am a Jew, non-practicing, but a Jew nonetheless. It upsets me to see that you had such a horrible first exposure to Jewish teachings. Much of it is very interesting, inspirational and spiritual. And much of it is bunk.

Sorry ya got the load of bunk there, buddy.

If you're ever curious though and want to read some sane books on what Jewish teaching really is, drop me a PM. I'll be sure to warn you before you hit the bunky chapters. ;-)

-Oo

------------------

"When the soul wishes to experience something, she throws an image of the experience out before her, and enters into her own image."

[eggmok]

evan . . .

when you start your own religion, make sure you worship all of the club gods like, *ahem* myself . . .

------------------

Life is too short to be small.

[foxyroxy20]

I dont think Evan is bashing any religions, he's just talking about his experience with his own religion. If ppl in their life are not happy wiht the religion they were born into they change it , but that doesnt' mean that they're traitors. There are some religions that are too tough and too many rules. Those religions sometimes have problems keeping ppl in that religion only cause in the u.s. , ppl r free, and so many ppl do what they want, etc, that a person in a religion that he/she could do not do what everyone does, or will get punished, usually run away or change religion , if they want. I am not saying everyone, I am just saying that in the u.s. its tough being in a religion that is so strict, when everyone nad everythng around u is prohibited. Thats really tough. Now if u were in a country where everyone is the same religion and have to obide by the same rules, then its easier to accept ur religion, cause theres nothing else u see being done otherwise.

------------------

aim: amafrk1

amafrk1@yahoo.com

[Evan]

Oh..I'm not trying to outlaw faith or tell people that they are wrong. I'm just asking people not to PUSH their faith on other people. I have Rabbis calling me all the time trying to get me to rejoin the flock... People handing me booklets on the street telling me that I'm gonna be burned in hell for not beleiving in Jesus. Then there are the faiths that tell all their beleivers that any religion but theirs is evil. There were massive inquisitons in the old days where Christians persecuted anyone who wasn't of their faith. You have the Muslims that beleive that any religion but theres are infidels.

I just want to be left the fuck alone. I want to be able to have fun and live a little without some bible thumper telling me that I'm gonna roast for eternity in the vilest pits of hell, while the devil will be sticking his pitchfork up my ass, slowly buttfucking me with it, while my cock is ripped apart with a cheese grater.

Just my 2 cents.

Oh..and I agree with pooh: Why would God need us to pray to him every day...or on "High Holidays". Is he that immodest that he needs people to workship him? Why does he need us to fast? Why can't we eat "unkosher" foods? Why can't I drive a fucking automobile to work on the fucking "Sabath"? What is with all these rules and regulations?? Wnhy does God need us to go to temple and pray the same damn words out of a book? Do any of you know what the translations of all those latin or hebrew words are?? Why can't we just pray in our own words if we believ in a greater being. Why can't we just say "Dude...I beleive in you....your power is great...Make me rich, get me laid, and don't let me shit in my own pants when I get old!"

Evan

[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 12-05-2000).]

[ReginaP]

I definitely agree people shouldn't try to push their religion on others. But when you say that you had to "eat kosher and do other crappy Jewish bullshit" you're offending some people as much as you've been offended. To some people, it's not crappy, and it's not bullshit. If you want other people to keep their opinions of what is right & wrong concerning religion to themselves, keep opinions like the above to yourself too. Thanks

------------------

=)