Clinton's Disaster Response Took Longer Than Bush's

[drlogic]

Tuesday, Sept. 13, 2005 10:59 a.m. EDT

Clinton's Disaster Response Took Longer Than Bush's

Critics say President Bush's personal response to the Hurricane Katrina disaster was too little, too late - with an Air Force One flyover the day after New Orleans' levees broke and a trip to Baton Rouge two days later.

President Clinton, on other the other hand, got glowing reviews for responding to his administration's biggest disaster, the Oklahoma City bombing - even though he took a day longer to arrive on the scene than Bush did last week.

New Orleans' levees broke on a Tuesday - and Bush had his own boots-on-the-ground just three days later on Friday.

When the Alfred P. Murrah Building exploded on Wednesday morning, April 19, 1995, President Clinton didn't travel to the scene for four full days.

And when he finally arrived, there was no grumbling by troubled pundits about the delay. In fact, Clinton's response to Oklahoma City is remembered to this day as the turning point of his political fortunes.

Writing this week in New York Magazine, John Heilemann recalls Clinton's April 23 speech about the bombing:

"With breathtaking subtlety and nimbleness, Clinton used that act of terrorism to illustrate the dangers of the wild-eyed anti-government rhetoric then in vogue among the Gingrichian GOP — a move that set him on the road to political redemption."

The real difference, of course, was that Clinton had a sympathetic media that was just as anxious as he was to blame the disaster on right wing Republicans. Bush, on the other hand, faces a press corps that couldn't wait to use Katrina against him.

The double standard becomes even more obvious when reaction to Katrina is compared with what remains the worst law enforcement debacle in U.S. history - the Clinton administration's decision to rout the Branch Davidians from their encampment at Waco.

More children were killed in that April 19, 1993, assault than died in Oklahoma City. Yet the Clinton administration received little if any blame - and no one was forced to resign.

In fact, after then-Attorney General Janet Reno publicly accepted responsibility, she was hailed as a hero by sympathetic reporters, an irony that's likely not lost on Bush's allegedly "disgraced" ex-FEMA Director Michael Brown.

---------------

Go Fig'r ??????????

[bigpoppanils]

whats your point?

[igloo]

whats your point?

perhaps that the Bush bashing is a little out of control, or perspective...as usual

[drlogic]

Perspective BigPoppa,,,dat's it!

The way I like to look at things is simple. If it seems to extreme or too outrageous (hence, Bush is racist or away on vacation, etc..) to be true, it probably is. That's it.

Over the years, I've learned to watch/read/listen to news as if it were all TABLOID NEWS. So, I learn something new and tell myself "imagine if this were true?" Then I read more, listen more, watch more and sure enough, common sense and perspective prevail and I'm more confident about making a well informed opinion.

It's not rocket science and I in no way beileve all conservs./reps are perfect. However, I do ask questions and ponder on the motives of the critics. Those who only show anger at one side or the other when things go wrong and are incapable of even limited objectivity cancel themselves out of the equation rendering themselves irrelevant. Sure, people like myself and from what I've read, Igloo have fun w/ some of those TA-TA-TA's (aka-TARDS) but it's just that, for me at least.

You see, if only democrats held themselves to the same standards they demand from republicans, America might just be a much better place.

[igloo]

You see, if only democrats held themselves to the same standards they demand from republicans, America might just be a much better place.

Outstanding!

[drlogic]

glad you liked it...I'm here all week....LOL

PS...I'm Obby's brother!

[frenchbread]

seems to me that you're forgetting something quite important in that very flawed comparison of yours:

-> bush knew before the hurricane hit that it was coming

-> clinton didn't know about the bombing until it happened

the real difference is not that clinton had sympathetic media...

the real difference is that bush knew about it before it happened, and did nothing to prepare for it...

so start counting those days again...

and about michael brown: he's not allegedly disgraced...he is an idiot...a zero...need proof?

here's what he had to say on nightline with ted koppel on thursday september 1st (yes, that's 3 days after landfall):

Koppel (on the number of people at the convention center -- the mayor says 15,000 to 25,000 and FEMA said only 5000): One of you is wrong. It's either 5000 or 15,000. Do you know?

Brown of FEMA: Blah blah blah. 25,000.... We just learned of the convention center -- we being the federal government -- today.

Koppel: I've heard you say during the course of a number of interviews that you found out about the convention center today. Don't you guys watch television? Don't you guys listen to the radio? Our reporters have been reporting on it for more than just today.

Brown of FEMA: We learned about (the convention center) FACTUALLY today that that's what existed.

(Brown responds to another question by saying troops are going to be moving in soon.)

Koppel: Here we are essentially FIVE DAYS after the storm hit and you're talking about what's going to happen in the next couple of days.... You didn't make preparations for what was going to happen in the event that [a category four storm hit]. Why didn't you?

(Brown then complains that poor people who don't own cars and can't afford hotel rooms didn't jump into their SUVs and head to the Hyatt in Atlanta. He then sidesteps Koppel by implying it was the city's fault for not having buses available for the very poor.)

Koppel: I'm not asking you why the city didn't have buses available. I'm asking you why you didn't have National Guards with trucks to get them out of there. Why you didn't have people with flatbed trailers if that's what you needed. Why you didn't simply get as many Greyhound buses from surrounding states as you could lay your hands on to get those people out of there. Why you haven't done it TO THIS DAY.

...

now let's review:

f.e.m.a.: federal emergency management agency

katrina: largest hurricane to ever wreak havock on u.s. soil

michael brown: dumbass nominated by kings of all dumbasses as head of fema, declares on live tv 3 days after the hurricane hit, that fema has only now learnt about the hurricane

and you want to tell me that michael brown is "allegedly" disgraced?...

please...

[jtk4]

that is the stupidest thing i have ever read.

There was an attack on a building, against the government really. Now do you think that maybe there was some security issues involved with clinton not going there. I mean a government building just got blown up and at that point nobody knew who did it and if they were still there but you want the president to go walking around.

I do not think this is bush's fault. I blame the local government and their complete lack of a working plan. I mean you live in a bowl with nothing but water around you and you have a history of getting hit by hurricanse, I mean come on have a working plan.

but to compare a terrorist attack and a natural disaster is stupid(i am not saying you are but whoever wrote that is)

[destruction]

seems to me that you're forgetting something quite important in that very flawed comparison of yours:

-> bush knew before the hurricane hit that it was coming

-> clinton didn't know about the bombing until it happened

the real difference is not that clinton had sympathetic media...

the real difference is that bush knew about it before it happened, and did nothing to prepare for it...

so start counting those days again...

and about michael brown: he's not allegedly disgraced...he is an idiot...a zero...need proof?

here's what he had to say on nightline with ted koppel on thursday september 1st (yes, that's 3 days after landfall):

...

now let's review:

f.e.m.a.: federal emergency management agency

katrina: largest hurricane to ever wreak havock on u.s. soil

michael brown: dumbass nominated by kings of all dumbasses as head of fema, declares on live tv 3 days after the hurricane hit, that fema has only now learnt about the hurricane

and you want to tell me that michael brown is "allegedly" disgraced?...

please...

OWNED!

[drlogic]

seems to me that you're forgetting something quite important in that very flawed comparison of yours:

-> bush knew before the hurricane hit that it was coming

RIGHT. The whole world knew. Bush urged the Gov. to evacuate the city 48 hrs. prior to the storm hitting. Is something you refuse to believe/accept? Hello!

-> clinton didn't know about the bombing until it happened

I guess it's okay then to take your time?

the real difference is not that clinton had sympathetic media...sure it is!

the real difference is that bush knew about it before it happened, and did nothing to prepare for it...sure he did! Where are you getting your news guy?

so start counting those days again...

and about michael brown: he's not allegedly disgraced...he is an idiot...a zero...need proof?

I guess you're just as pissed at Mayor Nagin and the Gov. too?

here's what he had to say on nightline with ted koppel on thursday september 1st (yes, that's 3 days after landfall):

...

now let's review:

f.e.m.a.: federal emergency management agency

katrina: largest hurricane to ever wreak havock on u.s. soil

michael brown: dumbass nominated by kings of all dumbasses as head of fema, declares on live tv 3 days after the hurricane hit, that fema has only now learnt about the hurricane

and you want to tell me that michael brown is "allegedly" disgraced?...

please...

You've completely missed the point. You're investing all this emotion and time on half truths and partial facts. You're only cheating yourself by doing so. You forgot to post all the failures from the local and state gov't. Or did you choose not to? Either way, you get my point. This is chock-full of perspective, history and facts. It doesn't completely slam Bush so I'm not sure if you'll allow your brain to soak it up. Regardless, I'm posting it again hoping it will help you.

September 12, 2005

Our Perfect Storms

by Victor Davis Hanson

Tribune Media Services

"In peace and prosperity states and individuals have better sentiments, because they do not find themselves suddenly confronted with imperious necessities; but war takes away the easy supply of daily wants, and so proves a rough master that brings most men's characters to a level with their fortunes."

So the historian Thucydides explained, some 2,400 years ago, the grotesque rampages during a revolution on the island of Corfu.

Arson, looting, shooting at helicopters, random murder, gang rape and stampede supposedly only occur elsewhere —in Baghdad or Rwanda, as if Americans are exempt from the frailty of culture simply because we live in the United States.

We are not, as we saw in New Orleans. And when the protocols of American civilization vanished through storm and flood, the devolution to our instinctual savagery proved only minutes away.

Unfortunately, Hurricane Katrina and the breaching of the Lake Pontchartrain levees above New Orleans ushered in not one, but successive storms of human and natural brutality.

First, we pressed nature one too many times. America forgot that there are very few cities extant on the planet that are below sea level. And to add to that, New Orleans is positioned on a gale-prone coast, aside the delta of one of the largest rivers in the world, and at the mercy of a huge lake damned right above the city.

That New Orleans heretofore had not experienced ruin in the manner of a swampy Venice or Naples beneath Mt. Vesuvius was the real miracle.

But besides topographical peril, New Orleans suffers from an ossified Louisianan political culture that has not evolved all that much from the crass demagoguery of Huey Long of the 1930s. The party machine's reason to be is providing exemptions for the very wealthy and subsidies for the dependent poor. We saw the dividends of this old "every man a king" politics in the scapegoating by paralyzed public officials.

The clueless mayor of New Orleans, who initially hesitated over federal requests to evacuate the entire city, was reduced to expletive-filled rants as hundreds of empty public buses sat idle. The teary governor of Louisiana whined mostly about the federal government. Meanwhile Sen. Mary Landrieu railed at the president: "I might likely have to punch him —literally."

This sad trio proved how fortunate New York was to have a Rudy Giuliani on Sept. 11, or Los Angeles a Richard Riordan in time of earthquake.

Although millions of others in nearby ravaged Mississippi rebounded without much violence, many in a densely populated, unassimilated and poor urban African-American population —one largely ignored by whites and manipulated by racial demagogues — chose to stay or were left behind in a submerged New Orleans.

Yet the stranded somehow assumed that government services could provide instant succor at ground zero of a biblical catastrophe. When such agencies could not, looters stole appliances (despite having no electricity). With little food, some filched liquor. In the midst of water everywhere, arsonists managed to ignite a mall. With roads impassable, others still roamed the city widely to rape women and shoot at police.

In response, Jesse Jackson jetted in not to organize self-help brigades but only to inflame by calling the mayhem "the hull of a slave ship." Civil Rights activist Randall Robinson, without a shred of evidence, immediately alleged — and later retracted — charges of cannibalism: "(B)lack hurricane victims in New Orleans have begun eating corpses to survive."

We are also in a controversial war. So there were more political storms to come —one of cynically manipulating human misery to tar George Bush.

Assorted experts have assured the public that there were plenty of National Guardsmen available in the area, that hurricanes in recent years in fact have not been as frequent as earlier in the century and that upkeep of recently reinforced dikes was adequately funded.

No matter. Partisans from Robert Kennedy Jr. to Sidney Blumenthal charged that global warming or the Iraq war or inadequate environmental legislation or the president himself was the cause of the thousands of deaths. Michael Moore and Cindy Sheehan, of course, screamed as well to reclaim their lost media attention.

It did not end even there. A few abroad could not resist expressing delight at the misery of the world's hyperpower. A Kuwaiti official Muhammad Yousef Al-Mlaifi, director of a state research center, also cited superhuman retribution. Now safe from Saddam and with oil sky high, he assured his former American saviors that Allah was rendering retribution to us infidels.

Jurgen Trittin, Germany's environmental minister —without memory of Americans eliminating German Nazism, saving Berlin from starvation, keeping the Red Army out of Western Europe and lobbying for German unification —preened that the ruination of New Orleans was duly earned for our neglect of the global atmosphere. This was from a government that counts on exporting thousands of its luxury gas-guzzling Mercedes, Audis and BMWs to the United States.

We could have weathered one storm, but four or five natural and human tempests all at once reduced us to abject calamity over New Orleans —bringing "men's characters to a level with their fortunes."

©2005 Victor Davis Hanson

[drlogic]

OWNED!

ahhhh, How cute.......Did you say something Scooter?

[destruction]

ahhhh, How cute.......Did you say something Scooter?

The very words of one who got owned. At least you admit to something.

[drlogic]

The very words of one who got owned. At least you admit to something.

Ha ha,,

neener, neener,,

I know you are but what am I?

Wanna tickle fight?

LOL

u'r a riot! u stupid head. let's go kick cans!!!!

-------

[destruction]

Ha ha,,

neener, neener,,

I know you are but what am I?

Wanna tickle fight?

LOL

u'r a riot! u stupid head. let's go kick cans!!!!

-------

Translation:

I may be in my 30s but I'm still in the 3rd grade.

Aren't you late for school?

[drlogic]

Nice try Scooter!

Can't hide from your emotional rants.

Too late to try and take the intellectual and moral high ground.

I told you you were your own worst enemy.

Now, don't forget to take notes and stay in school!

Cheaters never prosper.

Remember, it takes more guts to be friends.

LOL

MAMAO! BRUTO! IMBESIL!

[destruction]

Nice try Scooter!

Can't hide from your emotional rants.

Too late to try and take the intellectual and moral high ground.

I told you you were your own worst enemy.

Now, don't forget to take notes and stay in school!

Cheaters never prosper.

Remember, it takes more guts to be friends.

LOL

MAMAO! BRUTO! IMBESIL!

[frenchbread]

You've completely missed the point.

i didn't miss your point...

it seems like you missed your point...your post is entitled "Clinton's Disaster Response Took Longer Than Bush's"...

and that's just wrong...

and you also try to insinuate that michael brown was not disgraced as head of fema...

and that too is just plain wrong...

now you can try to create a diversion by posting something that's off-topic with respect to this thread...

but that doesn't change the fact that your original post is just wrong...

p.s.: sign that the author of an article is a flaming idiot: he has to mention the USA saving germany from the nazi's when he talks about a german person...regardless of the context...

[digital7]

that is the stupidest thing i have ever read.

There was an attack on a building, against the government really. Now do you think that maybe there was some security issues involved with clinton not going there. I mean a government building just got blown up and at that point nobody knew who did it and if they were still there but you want the president to go walking around.

but to compare a terrorist attack and a natural disaster is stupid(i am not saying you are but whoever wrote that is)

thank you. I agree with you 100%

[drlogic]

p.s.: sign that the author of an article is a flaming idiot: he has to mention the USA saving germany from the nazi's when he talks about a german person...regardless of the context...

The author is a historical scholar. You don't want to incorporate the historical reference because it doesn't fit your template. Disagreeing w/ the guy does not make the statement false. Fact is fact Frenchie.....

By the way, did ya' hear? Gov. Blanco took full responsibility last night for the fiasco in New Orleans. Quote: "I take full responsibility. The buck stops here!"

Granted, another reality which doesn't fit your pre-conceived assesment that the Feds and not the storm or local gov't are the culprit.

Whatever tickles your pickle, Baguette

[frenchbread]

The author is a historical scholar. You don't want to incorporate the historical reference because it doesn't fit your template. Disagreeing w/ the guy does not make the statement false. Fact is fact Frenchie.....

historical scholar????...come on...you should stop stringing big words just to fake being right...

i didn't say the guy's statement was false...i said it is completely unrelated...i'll prove it again:

Jurgen Trittin, Germany's environmental minister —without memory of Americans eliminating German Nazism, saving Berlin from starvation, keeping the Red Army out of Western Europe and lobbying for German unification —preened that the ruination of New Orleans was duly earned for our neglect of the global atmosphere.

you tell me what "neglecting the global atmosphere led to katrina" has to do with the US ridding germany of nazi's...

i'll be waiting for you explanation...

he might have added in there that the earth is round...that would have been true also...

...'fact is fact'...come on...do you even read what people post before you type?...let me guess...you do only if it's someone that agrees with you...

By the way, did ya' hear? Gov. Blanco took full responsibility last night for the fiasco in New Orleans. Quote: "I take full responsibility. The buck stops here!"

Granted, another reality which doesn't fit your pre-conceived assesment that the Feds and not the storm or local gov't are the culprit.

Whatever tickles your pickle, Baguette

and again, off-topic man...

your post, this thread, was about Clinton's Disaster Response Took Longer Than Bush's...not whether local gov't is to blame...

...

and wtf!!!!...did i ever argue that the local government was not to blame?...no...you just assumed...yet again...

your pre-conceived assesment that the Feds and not the storm or local gov't are the culprit

...when did i ever said that?!?!?!?...stop putting words in people's mouths...

because i believe that bush fucked up on the management of katrina, you immediately decided on what my views are...that shows that you're an idiot...

you don't know whether i think that local gov't fucked up too...you just "thought" using your great logic...

listen, i don't pretend to know what you think, so stop acting like you know what goes on in people's mind...

if someone has a template here, it's you...you have a template about who i am, and what i think, because i don't agree with you...you have a template for anybody who criticizes bush...

well, that's sad...and shows how narrow-minded you are man...

p.s.: wanna make fun of people nickname, let's make fun of yours:

dr.logic -> logic?...i don't think so...dr?...looks more like a patient to me...

[bigpoppanils]

historical scholar????...come on...you should stop stringing big words just to fake being right...

i didn't say the guy's statement was false...i said it is completely unrelated...i'll prove it again:

you tell me what "neglecting the global atmosphere led to katrina" has to do with the US ridding germany of nazi's...

i'll be waiting for you explanation...

he might have added in there that the earth is round...that would have been true also...

...'fact is fact'...come on...do you even read what people post before you type?...let me guess...you do only if it's someone that agrees with you...

and again, off-topic man...

your post, this thread, was about Clinton's Disaster Response Took Longer Than Bush's...not whether local gov't is to blame...

...

and wtf!!!!...did i ever argue that the local government was not to blame?...no...you just assumed...yet again...

...when did i ever said that?!?!?!?...stop putting words in people's mouths...

because i believe that bush fucked up on the management of katrina, you immediately decided on what my views are...that shows that you're an idiot...

you don't know whether i think that local gov't fucked up too...you just "thought" using your great logic...

listen, i don't pretend to know what you think, so stop acting like you know what goes on in people's mind...

if someone has a template here, it's you...you have a template about who i am, and what i think, because i don't agree with you...you have a template for anybody who criticizes bush...

well, that's sad...and shows how narrow-minded you are man...

p.s.: wanna make fun of people nickname, let's make fun of yours:

dr.logic -> logic?...i don't think so...dr?...looks more like a patient to me...

frenchbread, here is a link to the author's current employer, the Hoover Institution. if you consider who his coworkers are/have been, his views are not suprising.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoover_Institution

[drlogic]

p.s.: wanna make fun of people nickname, let's make fun of yours:

dr.logic -> logic?...i don't think so...dr?...looks more like a patient to me...

good point on the name thing.....

patient? LOL That was funny! Seriously!

[frenchbread]

p.s.: wanna make fun of people nickname, let's make fun of yours:

dr.logic -> logic?...i don't think so...dr?...looks more like a patient to me...

good point on the name thing.....

patient? LOL That was funny! Seriously!

yeah, whatever...

funny how the only thing you replied to was that...

couldn't answer to any of the topic-related stuff huh...

case closed...

[drlogic]

yeah, whatever...

funny how the only thing you replied to was that...

couldn't answer to any of the topic-related stuff huh...

case closed...

This thread NUKES your tantrum.......

http://bbs.clubplanet.com/showthread.php?t=281731

Couldn't answer stuff? How does one make sense from NON-SENSE?

Your all heart, no brains.

Try using your noggin and implementing PERSPECTIVE prior to going off on your tangents and maybe, just maybe we can have a serious dialogue like 2 adults.

Call me crazy?

Like I've said before: For all these arm chair critics who seem to think Bush and his admin can do NOTHING right, plz tell me what liberal policy or liberal politician has EVER fixed anything?

(tick tock tick tock tick tock...........)

SURVEY SAYS................... "X"

Oh,,,,SUURRY.............NEXT!

[frenchbread]

This thread NUKES your tantrum.......

http://bbs.clubplanet.com/showthread.php?t=281731

Couldn't answer stuff? How does one make sense from NON-SENSE?

Your all heart, no brains.

Try using your noggin and implementing PERSPECTIVE prior to going off on your tangents and maybe, just maybe we can have a serious dialogue like 2 adults.

Call me crazy?

Like I've said before: For all these arm chair critics who seem to think Bush and his admin can do NOTHING right, plz tell me what liberal policy or liberal politician has EVER fixed anything?

(tick tock tick tock tick tock...........)

SURVEY SAYS................... "X"

Oh,,,,SUURRY.............NEXT!

listen, i usually try not to curse, but you're a fuckin idiot...

you started this thread...

and it was about clinton having had slower response time for the oklahoma bombings...

and as supported by myself and other people on the thread, that is the stupidest fuckin thing to say...ever......

i tried to show you that, but you went off on all these tangents...

i tried to bring it back to the subject at hand...but you had no reply...

all you can do is use your usual come back...you liberals, blah blah blah...

who said i was a liberal?...and what does that have to do with this thread????...nothing...

you want a survey...

drlogic is a fuckin moron who can't stay on topic, even on his own threads...why is that?...

survey says: because he's a fuckin' moron...

done and done...

oh, and dude...don't bother answering, because unless it's on topic (which we all know it's not going to be) i ain't gonna read it...