Whats your take on this swift boat drama

[V. Barbarino]

I read all the arguements and articles and even the washingposts report that the head guy is lying etc.

For me it's simple

1. I don't understand vietnam

2. i will never understand vietnam

3. He went, thats all I care about

4. what he did there, whether smoking pot for 4 months or killing charlie for 4 months, I don't care, refer back to #1 and #2

for me it's a non issue... I don't care what him and bush did 25 years ago. I just hope if I ever run for office, they don't bring up shit I did or didn't do when i was young.

[Guest LeVeL]

Saleen if you run for office, the media will always bring back all those things you said about the trancers. And about that fat girl that you banged on the alley.

[ryan2772]

i think the fact that john mccain denounced these scumbags is pretty powerful. the guys in the commercial said they served with him, but all that means is that they were in vietnam at the same time. and the one doctor who said he treated kerry for a 1 cm pice of metal....his name isn't on any of kerry's medical records, and common sense: why would a battlefield doctor remember a wound like this, 30 years later? and remember the soldier whom it happened to? come on. it's bullsh*t.

[Guest LeVeL]

i think the fact that john mccain denounced these scumbags is pretty powerful. the guys in the commercial said they served with him, but all that means is that they were in vietnam at the same time. and the one doctor who said he treated kerry for a 1 cm pice of metal....his name isn't on any of kerry's medical records, and common sense: why would a battlefield doctor remember a wound like this, 30 years later? and remember the soldier whom it happened to? come on. it's bullsh*t.

Yeah the more you hear about him serving vietnam the more of a lie his campaign has become. John Kerry is going to end up ruining his campaign in the long run because of these allegations cause the American people dont want another liar in office. This election will be determined by the war not John Kerry, if the war wouldn't be on right now Bush would be a shoe in to be reelected.

[Guest endymion]

I could find a handful of friends-of-friends to say negative stuff about anybody here if I had enough money to find them and pay them. Especially if they already happened to lean toward whatever political objective I was aiming at.

As a Vote-No-On-Bush campaigner I'm pretty happy that this issue keeps coming up. Especially that doc who claims to have treated Kerry and who claims to have vivid memories of it even though there are no records and the wound was superficial. I'm happy about him bringing that up over and over because it naturally leads to you think about the records of Bush's military service. How he claims "I flew fighters" even though nobody remembers training him, there are no records of anybody training him, there are no military flight licenses on record, he doesn't show up in the service records for any aircraft anywhere, nobody remembers serving with him, and the only written records he can find to back up his story are dental exam records.

If I ran around in the forums telling people that I used to fly fighter jets for the National Guard and I couldn't produce even a flight license to prove it then you guys wouldn't stop laughing at me for months.

[bornslippy22]

many Vets think that Kerry is a liar...and they wont vote for him...what he did after Vietnam has also soured many Vets about Kerry...many things Kerry has said and his wounds that he received has made a lot of Vets raise an eyebrow...but his actions after he got back to the States pissed off many Vets...

[Guest guyman1966]

And about that fat girl that you banged on the alley.

There were so many fat girls and so many alleys... you have to be more specific.

[Guest LeVeL]

many Vets think that Kerry is a liar...and they wont vote for him...what he did after Vietnam has also soured many Vets about Kerry...many things Kerry has said and his wounds that he received has made a lot of Vets raise an eyebrow...but his actions after he got back to the States pissed off many Vets...

All this military stuff will only hurt him in the long run. I was watching C-Span a couple days ago and they had an interview showing John Kerry from 1972, right after he had come from Vietnam. Veterans back then claimed that John kerry was doing all that for he can get votes for him to get elected into Congress. because so many people were pissed off about the war that they wanted a change just like it is happening now. He just riding the war bandwagon all over again for he can get votes. Same startegy but in a higher stage. The more I talk about this the more I dont want to vote for him to tell you the truth.

[bornslippy22]

All this military stuff will only hurt him in the long run. I was watching C-Span a couple days ago and they had an interview showing John Kerry from 1972, right after he had come from Vietnam. Veterans back then claimed that John kerry was doing all that for he can get votes for him to get elected into Congress. because so many people were pissed off about the war that they wanted a change just like it is happening now. He just riding the war bandwagon all over again for he can get votes. Same startegy but in a higher stage. The more I talk about this the more I dont want to vote for him to tell you the truth.

well he has already been proven a liar...he went back and re-tracted a statement he made about him being in Cambodia Xmas day...

[Guest LeVeL]

All politicians are liars in general, just some of them are harder to figure out but with John Kerry you can tell he has lied a lot over his time. I dont think this country needs another repulsive liar in office. If I want a liar for President then I would elect O.J. Simpson.

[Guest endymion]

You think that fighting to participate in the democratic process to effect a change that you believe in is wrong and it makes a man unelectable.

But yet the obvious lies about "I flew fighters" don't make the other candidate unelectable?

Fascinating.

[Guest saintjohn]

i'm not a fan of either candidate, but claiming that bush didn't fly fighters is weak. from aerospaceweb.org:

After being accepted into the ANG, Airman Basic Bush was selected to attend pilot training even though his test scores were the lowest acceptable for that position. His six weeks of basic training was completed at Lackland AFB in Texas during July and August of 1968. Upon its completion, Bush was promoted to the officer's rank of second lieutenant, which is required for pilot candidates. He spent the next year in flight school at Moody AFB in Georgia from November 1968 to November 1969. The aircraft Lt. Bush trained aboard were the T-41 Mescelero propeller-driven basic trainer and the T-38 Talon primary jet trainer. He also completed two weeks of survival training during this period.

Bush then returned to Ellington in Texas to complete seven months of combat crew training on the F-102 from December 1969 to June 1970. This period included five weeks of training on the T-33 Shooting Star and 16 weeks aboard the TF-102 Delta Dagger two-seat trainer and finally the single-seat F-102A. Bush graduated from the training program in June 1970. The previously mentioned Maurice Udell was a flight instructor for Lt. Bush who was interviewed by the Associated Press in February 2004. MAJ Udell recalled that Bush was one of his best students saying that, "I'd rank him in the top five percent."

As he was completing training and being certified as a qualified F-102 pilot, Bush and other pilots in his position were likely candidates to be rotated to Vietnam. However, the F-102 was built for a type of air combat that wasn't seen during that conflict, and the plane was withdrawn from southeast Asia between December 1969 and mid-1971 (Sources conflict on the date of withdrawal. It may be that the final combat mission was flown in December 1969 but the plane remained in theater until 1971.) The F-102 was instead returned to its primary role of providing air defense for the United States, a duty largely delegated to the ANG by this time.

Ellington, where Bush was stationed, has remained a National Guard air defense base until the present day. In the early 1970s, however, the facility also took on a secondary duty as the only training base for all F-102 pilots from ANG squadrons across the US. Lt. Bush remained in the Texas ANG as a certified F-102 pilot who participated in frequent drills and alerts through April of 1972. It appears that he served on air defense alert during this time since he did not have sufficient flying hours to become an F-102 pilot instructor. (We believe that a minimum of 1,000 flying hours in the F-102 was required to become an instructor. Bush had over 600 hours flying time when he left the Guard, but we believe that this figure included other planes besides the F-102).

[Guest saintjohn]

but wait, there's more:

The point of this discussion is that the military record of George W. Bush deserves a fair treatment. Bush has been criticized for avoiding service in Vietnam, though the evidence proves that the Texas Air National Guard and its F-102 pilots were serving in Vietnam while Bush was in training, and his unit could have been activated for front-line service at any time. Bush has been criticized for using his family influence to obtain his assignment, but the evidence shows that he successfully completed every aspect of the more than two years of training required of him. Bush has been criticized for pursuing a safe and plush position as a fighter pilot, but the evidence indicates the F-102 was a demanding aircraft that claimed the lives of many of its pilots even on routine missions. Bush has also been criticized for deserting the Guard before his enlistment was complete, but the evidence shows he was honorably discharged eight months early because his position was being phased out.

This is not to say that there exist no points of contention in Bush's record worthy of criticism. There are indeed gaps and irregularities from April 1972 to May 1973 that indicate he may not have completed his responsibilities as a National Guardsman. However, these allegations have been fully investigated in the past and were found to lack credibility. Both the New York Times and the Boston Globe investigated Bush's military service and concluded that Bush successfully fulfilled his quarterly requirements to the Guard prior to his discharge.

[V. Barbarino]

game

set

match

welcome back john...

[ryan2772]

kerry isn't running political ads attacking bush's military record.

and kerry has denounced such ads.

[Guest endymion]

Ha! Welcome back Saint John!

Udell seems to be the only guy who will stand up for Bush amid claims that he pulled strings to just not bother showing up for duty. You're citing stuff that the unit that Bush was supposed to be attached to did. The charge is that he pulled strings to get attached to the unit, didn't show up for duty, breezed through life partying while people were dying in Vietnam, and then just bailed from the roster when he was in the clear.

Even if he did show up for the flight training, he apparently didn't show up for any other duty because nobody but that flight instructor seems to want to put any effort into supporting him when people accuse him of partying through Vietnam. The simple fact that he was lucky enough to get his wings and then he just dropped it all to go into politics as quickly as possible shows you how much he cared about his duty to serve in the military and defend the nation's airspace from blah blah blah and yeah where's that blow you scored last week I can't find it? Daddy when I'm president I'll invade a country with some oil in it instead of all of that rice and then we'll all be rich, yeeehaw!

You know that guy. The asshole rich kid frat boy well-connected everybody-loves-me guy. That Guy runs our country. Frat Guy.

So compare Frat Guy to the weirdo who loves his country so much that he volunteers to go and slog through marshes in Vietnam and get shot at. Which of these guys has a right to accuse the other of improper conduct during Vietnam? That's why I like it when people bring up the swift boat service.

[BobbyTrendy]

I just hope if I ever run for office, they don't bring up shit I did or didn't do when i was young.

Yeah like your horrendous club reviews and your deep love for trance music..

LOL

[Guest saintjohn]

Ha! Welcome back Saint John!

thanks, tech. like i said, i'm not a big fan of either of the candidates, but i wouldn't accuse bush of lying about flying fighters. it takes a while to log 600 hours, especially if you're flying something like a f-102 (b-52s and other long-haul planes are a different story). you've already got plenty of reasons to dislike bush, but complaining about his texas air national guard service seems to detract from your more serious charges against him.

when bush volunteered for the ang, he could've just enlisted, but he chose to pursue flight training instead. at the time he joined up, the unit he eventually joined was flying combat missions in vietnam. there was no way he could've predicted that they would've been withdrawn from the conflict before he was finished with flight school. he had every reason to believe that he was volunteering for a combat assignment. if he wanted to minimize his personal risk, he could've just flunked out of pilot training. any other ang mos (military occupational specialty - i'm not sure what it was called back then) would've been much safer. how many ang supply clerks ever ended up in the hanoi hilton, anyway?

bush isn't a war hero, but he isn't a deserter, either.

as for the whole swift boat veterans thing, i do wish bush would specifically distance himself from the people behind it. like you said, it's not going to win him any votes.

[Guest saintjohn]

oh, btw, i'm not sure that swift boats were deployed to vietnam when kerry was commissioned. i'm not yet convinced that he actually volunteered for combat duty. hmmm. time for more (pointless) research.

[Guest saintjohn]

well, that didn't take long. here's what kerry himself has to say on the subject:

"I didn't really want to get involved in the war," Kerry said in a little-noticed contribution to a book of Vietnam reminiscences published in 1986. "When I signed up for the swift boats, they had very little to do with the war. They were engaged in coastal patrolling and that's what I thought I was going to be doing."

two weeks after he arrived in vietnam, the swift boat mission was changed to include patrolling the mekong delta.

he didn't exactly go looking for that combat assignment, after all. can't say i blame him, but his website neatly glosses over that inconvenient fact.

source:

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml

[Guest bcnjunkie]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Guest JMT]

oh, btw, i'm not sure that swift boats were deployed to vietnam when kerry was commissioned.

they werent.

btw, these guys were there. they deserve to be heard. the things is, it wouldnt matter except Kerry's people pride his campaign on being a veteran. these guys are a little pissed. as saleen said, he wasnt there. all the more reason to hear the whole story.

[Guest saintjohn]

better late than never:

WASHINGTON (AP) - President Bush on Monday criticized a commercial that accused John Kerry of inflating his own Vietnam War record, more than a week after the ad stopped running, and said broadcast attacks by outside groups have no place in the race for the White House.

source:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040823/D84L7OKG0.html

[Guest endymion]

btw, these guys were there. they deserve to be heard.

Well sure they do. And for 35 years a lot of them have been saying the opposite of what they are saying now that rich Texans are giving them money to say mean things about Kerry.

[Guest saintjohn]

it seems like their real gripe is what kerry did after he returned from vietnam (and while he was still on active duty). kerry's lurid testimony to congress about "war crimes" was a broad indictment of the same people he had served with in the delta. if the swift boat vets would simply talk about their feelings (which are valid) of betrayal, instead of disputing the details of kerry's combat record, i'd be more interested in listening to their complaints.