What's the deal with guns?

[Guest endymion]

I want to be the guy in control in worst-case scenarios.

That simple.

[tgibson]

Again, I hear you in principal, don’t think it works in practice.

Anyone who is not scared off by you making loud noises and letting them know you’re home when they’ve broken in, is probably pretty bad ass. That person, or people, is likely way tougher than you are. They probably have guns themselves, and unless you’re able to successfully get to the lockbox, get everything out and ready BEFORE they get to you – you’re toast. Some little training course you have to complete once, in order to be proficient with your piece, is likely not going to prepare you for an intruder 10 years later…

It would surprise me that a majority people who pull guns to scare off burglers wouldn’t call the cops. It has to be a pretty intense feeling. What, do they get the gun, scare the dude off, and then go back to bed?

[Guest saintjohn]

Again, I hear you in principal, don’t think it works in practice.

okay, it's story time. this one's true.

years ago, a friend of mine - we'll call him don, because that's his name - was confronted by an angry, psychotic individual in a stair well. said individual was naked, and brandishing (as opposed to simply holding) a very large steak knife. don knew this guy was a chef by trade, and therefore he knew that this lunatic could use a knife very effectively. due to the circumstances and the layout of the stairwell, retreat was not a viable option. you have to appreciate that this situation was unexpected, and that everything was happening rather quickly. don drew the handgun that he was (legally) carrying, and took aim at the psycho chef. he told him to back off, but the guy with the knife started coming at him instead.

so, at this point, what do we know about the chef? he's naked, in the stairwell of an apartment complex, so we can assume that something is not right with this individual. also, he's waving around a deadly weapon, and is less than two seconds away from plunging it into my friend's torso, if he decides to do so. finally, he has decided to advance in a threatening manner towards a man pointing a loaded gun at him. i think it's safe to conclude that the naked knife guy represented an immediate danger to just about anyone in the immediate area.

in this situation, anyone without a gun would've had two choices: stand there and get stabbed in the chest, or turn around, start running down the stairs, and get stabbed in the back when the guy jumps down on top of you. oh, did i mention the crowd of people just behind you on the staircase?

my friend reluctantly began to pull the trigger. luckily for naked knife guy, don was carrying a double-action semi-automatic pistol with a relatively long initial trigger stroke. naked guy paused and reconsidered his actions. he lowered the knife, turned around, and wandered back upstairs. police eventually took him into custody.

my point, and i do have one, is that maybe "it" doesn't work for you, but gun ownership does work for other people. just because you doubt your own ability to respond approriately and effectively in a potentially deadly situation, is that reason enough to deprive other law-abiding citizens the means to defend themselves?

don't like guns? fine. don't buy one.

[ryan2772]

i would've shot him in the kneecap immediately.

[Guest klit]

Over here I feel safe without one but back home it is a must to own one. Question over there is if your safer having it on you at all times or if you should just have it at home?

[tgibson]

Does this suppose that there are no negatives to legal gun ownership? In other words, as I tried to say before, does it suppose that personal gun ownership just stops crimes, it doesn't cause crimes (or accidents for that matter). I always thought this was the big issue people had against guns – someone ends up using them for bad stuff, or someone’s kid end up playing with it and getting killed. I just don’t have the facts. If I saw that there were people across the country everyday using guns for protection and warding off their foes and I didn’t hear stories about kids getting shot or legal handguns getting stolen and used by criminals or used by people in states of rage who go and grab their handguns…I guess it would be easy to see the logic. At the end of the day (based on what I think I know), it seems like we’d all be safer if we just stopped giving people guns…and yeah, if you’re a criminal and have one, it’s a big deal and you’re gonna get punished for it whether you use it or not…

And yeah, if you can have one at home, shouldn’t you also be able to carry one on the street? ???

As for the kneecap, great call - I have often wondered why more cop movies don't have them shooting out the tires of a getaway car, or nailing the guy in the leg when he's trying to run away (besides the fact that it would make for a less interesting movie, of course...) ;D

[Guest endymion]

... and unless you’re able to successfully get to the lockbox, get everything out and ready BEFORE they get to you – you’re toast.

Lock box. You're funny. You clearly have never lived in Florida.

[tgibson]

... and unless you’re able to successfully get to the lockbox, get everything out and ready BEFORE they get to you – you’re toast.

Lock box. You're funny. You clearly have never lived in Florida.

Clearly...and very unfortunately for me...

(isn't it the rule that guns have to be locked up or something?)

[Guest pod]

Nope. Lock boxes or lockout devices are not mandatory. The gun control lobby would like it to be that way, since they have no concept of educating their kids on firearm safety.

Guns aren't for everyone, yes. But for people in certain areas, it is almost a must. Like TJ it comes down to being in control in a potentially bad situation.

The true bad-ass criminals aren't gonna tip over people's apartments and homes, like I said in another post, they are going after banks, stores, etc. The majority of home burglaries are done by clueless kids out for a thrill or a cheap score. Little José comes through your window at 3 AM, chances are he's gonna shit himself when bring your Glock 36 to bear on his skull.

Will you call the cops if he runs away? I wouldn't. Even with valid firearms permits, the cops and laws in general will make your life a living hell for the next six months, even though you are the victim in this case. Little José might just sue you as well for emotional distress. Sadly, a man's home is no longer his castle. 20 years ago, you break into my home, I put a .45 round into your skull, no one would have batted an eye. As a thief and general scumbag, you pretty much were asking for it.

That is why successful uses of guns being used to prevent crimes go unreported in general...it is just too much of a pain in the ass to explain things to the cops.

And gun education isn't one class, it is a commitment to education for as long as you are an active firearms owner. It isn't like driving, you take one class, get your permit...

It is a dangerous world out there, unfortunately.

[tgibson]

All good points.

Where do you keep your piece? Under the pillow would be bad-ass...

[Guest pod]

In my hand while I sleep with one eye open. ;D

[tgibson]

In my hand while I sleep with one eye open. ;D

Enter sandman.

[Guest saintjohn]

As for the kneecap, great call

it might be entertaining in a movie, but i wouldn't trust that tactic in real life. if someone is worth shooting, he's worth shooting right. why do you suppose cops are taught to aim for "center of mass"? if a person with a contact weapon (like a knife or a baseball bat) is intent on attacking you and close enough to be a threat, taking the time to precisely aim at a (moving) kneecap would be a mistake that you may not live long enough to regret. if you miss entirely (which is quite possible, even in broad daylight), you may not have time for a second shot. if you hit him somewhere else, like the femoral artery, he's still going to have plenty of time to stab you in the eye before he bleeds out. even if you do hit him in the kneecap, i wouldn't count on such a wound instantaneously stopping a charging, determined attacker. if you want to take your chances, be my guest. i'll be moving off the line of attack and firing at center of mass until he's no longer a threat.

also, if you survive the encounter, the district attorney may be curious as to why you chose to intentionally maim someone who was "only" armed with a knife. if you were really convinced that your life was in imminent, otherwise unavoidable danger, why didn't you aim at the area most likely to immediately stop your "supposed" attacker? did you think he "deserved" to be crippled for life just because he had a kitchen utensil in his hand? until you've waded through a few court transcripts, you wouldn't believe how attorneys are capable of making a justifiable shooting seem like some sort of vigilante act.

[Guest pod]

That is exactly what I am saying. Now, I'm not bashing lawyers here, since I know quite a few of high moral caliber, but I've seen more than a few cases where a homeowner shoots the burglar "cripples and scars" him for life, and ends up paying for it, all due to the crafty manipulations of a good lawyer.

Realistically in this scenario, killing the intruder would have been less severe on the homeowner. Dead people don't sue.

But in the end, don't point your weapon at anything you aren't willing to destroy.

[Guest endymion]

I have a friend who got arrested and went to jail and spent months on probation for brandishing. He's a smart and responsible guy who had a legal Berretta and a valid and current concealed permit. He had those things because he owns a jewelry shop and he commonly carries hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of jewelry on him as he makes pickups and deliveries to his client stores. He got cornered in a back alley by a shopping mall after hours by five big guys who knew that he was carrying a bunch of jewelry and wanted it. He tried to just take off for his truck but they flanked him and had him surrounded in the alley. He pulled the Berretta and they left. He ended up getting arrested, not them. He saved his butt and a couple of hundred thousand dollars and didn't hurt anybody but he did have to pay for it. Both literally in attorneys' fees and court costs and also in months of grief and stress and probation. Nobody including the five guys dispute his story but that's just how it went down, cops don't think it's funny to respond to calls where civilians pull guns on people, you're automatically the bad guy for doing that even if you're justified. Just how it works.

Moral of the story is that the stakes are much, much higher in every situation when you make the decision to carry a gun. Put a lot of thought into whether you're prepared to take responsibility for your actions or else just stay away from guns entirely.

[Guest pod]

Well, to quote Spiderman, with great power comes great responsibilty.

You'd think the cops would be more sympathetic, as all of them are gun owners, outside of their chosen profession. I don't know of any cops that are unarmed outside of their patrol hours.

[tgibson]

Well, to quote Spiderman, with great power comes great responsibilty.

You'd think the cops would be more sympathetic, as all of them are gun owners, outside of their chosen profession. I don't know of any cops that are unarmed outside of their patrol hours.

So we're all on board for the right to carry a concealed weapon then?

[Guest pod]

Yes, I believe everyone (within reason, i.e. if you committed a violent crime in the past, no go...) has the right to carry a weapon. But I leave the choice up to each person.

[Guest endymion]

You'd think the cops would be more sympathetic, as all of them are gun owners, outside of their chosen profession.

Umm, no. Cops really don't like people carrying guns around. Cops really like it when cops have guns and you can sort the other people into a good pile and a bad pile based on which people are armed and which people are not. Further complexity makes cops' jobs more dangerous and difficult.

I had to go through a lot of trouble and expense to get a permit, and renewing it wasn't much simpler. The people who get permits are nerds who follow the rules, I don't think that many of them are going to end up committing violent crimes while carrying their permits to avoid concealed weapons charges. I think personally that the overall impact to society from concealed permits is nearly zero.

I watched the movie City of God the other night after reading the beginnings of this conversation. About poor people in Brazil fighting a full-on drug war with the cops there. The cops there use fully automatic assault rifles and street sweepers and grenade launchers and 50mm sniper rifles and all kinds of serious high-powered arms that cops here don't need because the criminals here run around with less firepower. There they have 14 year old boys shooting each other with 50mm tracer rounds. Seeing the effects of more firepower on that area makes me think that it isn't necessarily the best overall direction to take your community.

[Guest saintjohn]

The people who get permits are nerds who follow the rules, I don't think that many of them are going to end up committing violent crimes while carrying their permits to avoid concealed weapons charges. I think personally that the overall impact to society from concealed permits is nearly zero.

actually, last time i checked, cops were committing more violent crimes than florida concealed weapon permit holders.

as for the overall impact, statistics suggest a real benefit to issuing concealed weapon permits. of course, when the legislation was first considered, opponents were convinced that the state (especially miami) would become some sort of "wild west" if average, law-abiding citizens were allowed to carry guns in public. instead, violent crime rates have dropped since the state started issuing the permits. car-jackings, in particular, are less likely now, although there was a period when rental cars with distinctive "y" plates were being targeted, presumably because street thugs assumed that out-of-state tourists would be unarmed.

in other words, all floridians (including those who hate guns) are safer now because predatory criminals are justifiably concerned about inadvertantly targeting one of the state's 331,492 permit holders.

[Guest cutchemist]

I'd have to agree with techjunkie on this one....amen brother

[Guest guyman1966]

Well, to quote Spiderman, with great power comes great responsibilty.

Pod - Spiderman did not say this. His Uncle did. He just quotes his Uncle. ;D

[Guest endymion]

I think that the Spiderman script writers lifted this one from a popular Norman Cousins quote, "In a democracy, the individual enjoys not only the ultimate power but carries the ultimate responsibility." He was talking about voting, not guns or super heroes.

[Guest guyman1966]

I think that the Spiderman script writers lifted this one from a popular Norman Cousins quote, "In a democracy, the individual enjoys not only the ultimate power but carries the ultimate responsibility." He was talking about voting, not guns or super heroes.

For me, I'd rather be a superhero than have a gun.