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Guest endymion

The Hassan kidnapping

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Guest endymion

I have been wrong before but I think that Hassan was carefully selected for this and she's about to get her head cut off on the Internet no matter what happens. I think it's going to have a chilling effect on international aid work in Iraq. Call me doom-and-gloom but I really think that the terrorists are winning, at least in Iraq.

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Guest web_norah

meanwhile England is sitting on their butts fighting on whether the redeployment of troops is worth it or not......

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Guest endymion

When American forces pulled out of Vietnam the inevitable happened and South Vietnam collapsed. Nothing bad happened, much to the chagrin of a lot of people here.

If American forces pulled out of Iraq then the Shiites have been given an upper hand. They are basically in control right now because the Sunni areas are fighting instead of participating, so the "Iraqi National Guard" that you keep hearing about is Sunni-controlled. So if we leave then the inevitability is most likely a civil war dominated by a Shiite theocracy like Iran. You will either see parts of Iraq absorbed by Iran or you will see two groups working closely together.

That means that the dominant force in the region after our pullout would be a militant Islamist theocracy with access to nuclear weapons.

So the Islamist terrorists seem to me to be a lot more sophisticated and effective than the Viet Cong. They are scoring more frequent hits. More efficient, cheap hits. Better kill ratios. Better armed initially. IEDs have come a long way since the Viet Cong tripwires.

Not looking good at all in terms of the struggle between civilization and barbarism as far as I'm concerned. Bush made some fundamentally mistaken chess moves at really important spots, like disbanding the Iraqi army, that destabilized the region. The terrorists effectively took advantage of every single big mistake.

Somebody tell me I'm wrong, please. How can anybody look at all of this and see us winning?

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Guest JMT

So the Islamist terrorists seem to me to be a lot more sophisticated and effective than the Viet Cong.

the viet cong??? you are smoking crack!

we lost troops at a rate of 4,000 annually in vietman. they were far less sophisticated because it was 30+ years ago.

that was A JOKE!

funny... as bad as its going over there, 69% of troops and their families still support bush.

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Guest endymion

That's what I mean about "efficient". We get better kill ratios so less death and more efficient objective accomplishment is in their best interest, yes? They are accomplishing their goals through careful surgical operations like beheading key people at key times in key ways.

I'd like to be wrong, really, so you don't have to jump all over me here.

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Guest endymion

Wow.

Man I don't even know what I would think about this if I were Muslim? What's the difference, Christian, Muslim, Hindu? This Hassan thing is just such a shock even to me and I have been expecting more things like this.

If they really kill her like I think they will then that just clearly shows us that this really is Good vs. Evil. No matter what your religion there is a right way to go about living life and a wrong way, and cutting that kind old lady's head off on the Internet is the Wrong Way.

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Guest JMT

Wow.

Man I don't even know what I would think about this if I were Muslim? What's the difference, Christian, Muslim, Hindu? This Hassan thing is just such a shock even to me and I have been expecting more things like this.

If they really kill her like I think they will then that just clearly shows us that this really is Good vs. Evil. No matter what your religion there is a right way to go about living life and a wrong way, and cutting that kind old lady's head off on the Internet is the Wrong Way.

TJ are you being serious?

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Guest endymion

Yeah I seriously am surprised by this Hassan kidnapping.

It shows that Iraq has become true chaos, all of this violence that we're reading about is coming from different groups with different interests. Hassan's kidnapping is clearly against the interests of the Iraqi insurgency, even Al Sadr must be opposed right?

So the reason I'm so down on all of this is because it's much easier to fight for chaos than it is to fight for order.

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Guest JMT

the instability is fueling any group with an agenda to think they can take over and have some authority.

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Guest endymion

Right, and we created the instability. I think the instability is obviously worse than what was there before if it ends up handing nuclear weapons to a militant Islamist theocracy.

Critical mistakes like disbanding the Iraqi army after the invasion played directly into the hands of the terrorists and we have had no response. Even if we beat them we do it using a new Iraqi security apparatus that is completely infiltrated by Shiite insurgents. Look at Fallujah. So we're on the Iranian side against the Sunnis now? Is that really what we wanted?

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