Haven't we learned not to arm militant Sunni groups?

[Guest endymion]

The Mujahedeen who Ronald Reagan armed and praised as "freedom fighters" transformed into Al Qaeda and attacked us in 2001.

Throughout the 1980s we armed our guy in Mesopotamia so that he could fight against the Islamist fundamentalists in Iran. We ended up spending five hundred billion dollars to remove him. (Gulf War I: $61.1 billion, Gulf War II: $433 billion)

What will the fallout be, 20 years from now, from arming militant Sunni groups in Iraq today?

[Guest web_norah]

the ghost of Ronald Reagan....

[Guest endymion]

History is repeating itself all over again. Civil war in Gaza. What's the US solution? Pick a side and arm them.

Tel Aviv intelligence sources tell TIME that the U.S. is putting urgent pressure on Israel to open up Gaza's sealed frontiers to allow in shipments of Israeli ammunition and weapons to enable Fatah to turn the tide. As of Monday, the Israeli military was balking at the request, out of concern that new shipments of weapons might eventually be turned against Israel.

"How do we explain it if mortar shells with Israeli markings are then used to shell towns inside Israel?" one officer asked.

[Guest Seb]

where is Dr. Logic to help us understand the "Logic" in this :-X

[Guest drlogic]

One need only to have a brain to find the logic in this.

Generations ago, the enemies were Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. Not long ago the major threat was the spread of communism (ie..in Europe, Asia and the Americas). Today it’s terrorism.

Every generation had their band of useful idiots and appeasers and it had their hero’s who actually chose not to stick their heads in the sand and defend liberty. Now our generation is faced w/ the greatest threat to freedom and liberty and yet again we are witnessing both pure cowardice & appeasement while at the same time our own generation of hero’s are emerging. We only need to look in the mirror to find out where we stand in the greatest threat of our time. History will be the judge.

But for craps and giggles, let’s see how the “pseudo-patriots†on these boards feel regarding what Al Gore had to say about Iraq, Terrorists, WMD’s and how they’re all linked together. Can’t for the spin……SPIN, SPIN BABY! LOL You miserable little liberals. Dealing w/ you guys is like dealing w/ children. SERIOUSLY! “I want, I want, I want. That’s not fair! Gimme, gimme, gimme. No daddy, that’s scary..etc…†LOL Silly Rabbit, Trix are for kids!

[ryan2772]

excellent point!

:

[Guest endymion]

I didn't see an explanation of any kind in Logic's post explaining how it makes sense to arm a NEW pack of Sunni militants? If this is true:

Generations ago, the enemies were Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. Not long ago the major threat was the spread of communism (ie..in Europe, Asia and the Americas). Today it’s terrorism.

...then how does it make sense to infuse a bunch of militants with American firepower? Isn't that counter-productive? Arming militants led directly to both 9/11 and the quagmire in Iraq, so if the big fight of our generation is terrorism then how does it make sense to do it again today with yet another militant Sunni group?

[Guest drlogic]

Amazing! Either you went to a shitty schools or you’re so blinded by hate for Bush you refuse to see history in the proper perspective.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend! I forgot who said that, but it applies here. To be quite honest, it’s pathetic that I even have to spell this out. When we were fighting the spread of communism, we armed those who would fight the communist........like UBL in Afghan when he was fighting the Russians (remember, it was the U.S.S.R. back then and they were the communists (ie..THE BAD GUYS…still w/ me here baby einsteins?).

Anyone actually interested in a solution which does not include the demise of America could better serve the argument by focusing on the threat and trying to come up w/ a solution. Bitching like a teenage drama queen accomplishes nothing except maybe making weak people hiding behind catchy screen names feel temporarily powerful and relevant.

[Guest Seb]

One need only to have a brain to find the logic in this.

Generations ago, the enemies were Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. Not long ago the major threat was the spread of communism (ie..in Europe, Asia and the Americas). Today it’s terrorism.

Every generation had their band of useful idiots and appeasers and it had their hero’s who actually chose not to stick their heads in the sand and defend liberty. Now our generation is faced w/ the greatest threat to freedom and liberty and yet again we are witnessing both pure cowardice & appeasement while at the same time our own generation of hero’s are emerging. We only need to look in the mirror to find out where we stand in the greatest threat of our time. History will be the judge.

But for craps and giggles, let’s see how the “pseudo-patriots†on these boards feel regarding what Al Gore had to say about Iraq, Terrorists, WMD’s and how they’re all linked together. Can’t for the spin……SPIN, SPIN BABY! LOL You miserable little liberals. Dealing w/ you guys is like dealing w/ children. SERIOUSLY! “I want, I want, I want. That’s not fair! Gimme, gimme, gimme. No daddy, that’s scary..etc…†LOL Silly Rabbit, Trix are for kids!

such a noble freedom fighter you are : it's a good thing we have proud and smug Americans like yourself to tell us how it is. By the way, love the way you spun your post into a completely different direction instead of addressing the topic at hand, where did you explain any "Logic" in what Tech had originally posted? com'n this is a no spin zone

[Guest endymion]

When we were fighting the spread of communism, we armed those who would fight the communist........like UBL in Afghan when he was fighting the Russians (remember, it was the U.S.S.R. back then and they were the communists (ie..THE BAD GUYS…still w/ me here baby einsteins?).

Yes, and those Sunni militants who we armed attacked us on 9/11. That's kind of my point here.

Anyone actually interested in a solution which does not include the demise of America could better serve the argument by focusing on the threat and trying to come up w/ a solution.

You're using very circular logic, Dr Logic. We're threatened by militants who we armed, therefore we should arm more militants. I really don't follow.

We armed the Mujahedeen, that led directly to 9/11 and cost us 2,974 American lives.

We armed Saddam Hussein, that led directly to the Iraq war and cost us over 3500 American lives.

This strategy of picking a militant group and arming them is leading directly to the loss of thousands of American lives. If you're so concerned about terrorists who want to attack us then why are you in favor of selling them weapons?

[Guest yume]

History will be the judge.

Well, I do agree with you there. But only on that point.

[Guest drlogic]

One need only to have a brain to find the logic in this.

Generations ago, the enemies were Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. Not long ago the major threat was the spread of communism (ie..in Europe, Asia and the Americas). Today it’s terrorism.

Every generation had their band of useful idiots and appeasers and it had their hero’s who actually chose not to stick their heads in the sand and defend liberty. Now our generation is faced w/ the greatest threat to freedom and liberty and yet again we are witnessing both pure cowardice & appeasement while at the same time our own generation of hero’s are emerging. We only need to look in the mirror to find out where we stand in the greatest threat of our time. History will be the judge.

But for craps and giggles, let’s see how the “pseudo-patriots†on these boards feel regarding what Al Gore had to say about Iraq, Terrorists, WMD’s and how they’re all linked together. Can’t for the spin……SPIN, SPIN BABY! LOL You miserable little liberals. Dealing w/ you guys is like dealing w/ children. SERIOUSLY! “I want, I want, I want. That’s not fair! Gimme, gimme, gimme. No daddy, that’s scary..etc…†LOL Silly Rabbit, Trix are for kids!

such a noble freedom fighter you are : it's a good thing we have proud and smug Americans like yourself to tell us how it is. By the way, love the way you spun your post into a completely different direction instead of addressing the topic at hand, where did you explain any "Logic" in what Tech had originally posted? com'n this is a no spin zone

Sebastian,,,I’m not spinning. I simply reject the premise. To get into that little game bores me to death. I want to stimulate my mind, not spew diarrhea of the mouth. Different times require different measures. That is an undeniable fact. I don’t live in the world of self imposed shackles (ie.. political correctness). I completely see where u’r coming from when you say “smugâ€, but realize to me, I’m still right and have yet to hear/read anything that proves otherwise. So, it’s not bragging if you can back it up. I actually do believe in absolutes. For me, these absolutes are guided by my core beliefs which include our God given right of freedom. Note: God given. Not given by man. I know you’re my brothers boy so I won’t fuck w/ you that bad. Any friend of my bro obby is a friend of mine. I disagree w/ plenty of people, but I don’t hate. I never hate. Never have. I’m a pretty positive guy. I just get bored w/ the Michael Moore and Barbara Streisand nonsense. BORING!!!!!!! Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Remember, freedom isn’t free. It comes at a cost and usually a pretty hefty one. Freedom will constantly have to be defended and fought for. Be it against Nazi’s, Communists or Terrorists. For anyone to assume we brought this upon ourselves for arming these people back when they were fighting our #1 enemy is being intellectually dishonest. It sounds good on a msg brd. but it’s far from grounded.

Nazi’s wanted to create that “master raceâ€

Communists destroyed religion and anything moral

Terrorist want to destroy all religions except their warped version of Islam

I realize many folks wanna “fit in†@ the local Starbucks and that’s okay. God bless you. If that’s what tickles your pickle, by all means! But let’s not confuse misguided principles for any sort of bravery or wisdom because it’s neither. What you folks do here on these boards is easy and far from brave, which is why I assume you indulge as much and as often as you do.

Word to the wise: If you really wanna make some sort of progress w/ me or anyone like me, try attacking the terrorist just as often as you attack America. Given that we can barely get you folks to say 1 or 2 bad things about terrorist, it makes it hard to take you seriously. You’ve got a plethora of potty mouth attacks against this country and that’s okay w/ me. Just at the least, try applying an equal amount of discontent for the actually enemy (ie..terrorist….ie..bad people…ie…want us all dead….ie..especially you cause they have no tolerance for those who challenge them)…..

On another note, I’ve been going to Nikki Bch on Sundays to support Joey and my brother. If you guys go, I’ll be more than happy to “discuss†whatever issues you’d like…politics, dirty sluts, krippy, whatever..LOL If anyone doesn’t like me, then I’ll break their face! LOL Nah,,just kidd’n…..I just crack myself up!

Ta-ta 4 now kids.

[Guest endymion]

Word to the wise: If you really wanna make some sort of progress w/ me or anyone like me, try attacking the terrorist just as often as you attack America.

I am, in this thread, and you're too dense to see it. Why are we ARMING Fatah? How does that make sense? "Freedom is not free" is a slogan, not a response.

We armed bin Laden, we got 9/11.

We armed Saddam, we got the Iraq War.

Why is our solution to the Palestinian civil war to pick a side and send them arms? History shows that it's a losing, short-sighted strategy. It does make a lot of money for American defense contractors but I'm sure that's irrelevant.

[Guest coach]

Okay, I think I understand what you are getting at. You are saying that the only way to fight whatever current enemy we have (Nazi's, Communism, Terrorism, Northern Aggression), is to team up with anybody who is our enemy's enemy. If that group then later becomes our enemy, that is an issue for a future generation, but at this moment it is the most expedient way of dealing with our enemies. Interesting solution.

Personally, I'd rather see us team up with people who are unlikely to ever be our enemy, rather than arming potential enemies and leaving that problem to our kids. But, if your assumption is that *only* teaming up with non-potential-enemies will not be able to deal with the current threat, then I see your point. For me, I assume that America *IS* strong enough to defend itself from the current threat *without* needing the help of people who are likely to become our enemy in the near future.

What I'm saying is that I think we could have defeated the U.S.S.R. without arming the Afghans. Okay, defeating the Nazis without arming the Russians would have been tough, but that was a MUCH larger threat. But, I really don't think that America is so weak that we need to ally with radical militants to defeat our enemies.

As far as a few insane religious nuts being the "the greatest threat to freedom and liberty" (quote DrLogic), that is just ridiculous. If you believe that, you must be 16 and never studied history. The USSR with 1000 nukes pointed our way, that was a big threat to our freedom. Nazism that took over most of Europe, that was a big threat to freedom. A bunch of loonballs with Stinger missiles are not near that large of a problem. Oh, don't get me wrong, they are a problem alright! But in no way are they the greatest threat we have ever faced. *I* believe that America is strong enough to deal with this threat without making deals with the devil, I am sorry, DrLogic, that you do not.

[Guest drlogic]

Word to the wise: If you really wanna make some sort of progress w/ me or anyone like me, try attacking the terrorist just as often as you attack America.

I am, in this thread, and you're too dense to see it. Why are we ARMING Fatah? How does that make sense? "Freedom is not free" is a slogan, not a response.

We armed bin Laden, we got 9/11.

We armed Saddam, we got the Iraq War.

Why is our solution to the Palestinian civil war to pick a side and send them arms? History shows that it's a losing, short-sighted strategy. It does make a lot of money for American defense contractors but I'm sure that's irrelevant.

Dense? lol I'll wear that as a badge of honor. Anyway, it's not just a slogan it's more. it also happens to be an undeniable reality too many fail to fully understand. IMHO(as always..lol)

We armed UBL and helped him push out the Russians(not "we got 9/11...that's EXACTLY what i mean by being intellectually dishonst.....WHY? Seems like emotion is getting the better of you and logic is being thrown to shit.)

We armed Saddam and prevented Iran from going buck.

UBL used to blame attacking us because we put our troops in Saudi Arabia,,when in reality it was Saudi Arabia who INVITED us to put troops there out of fear of instability in that region (and it was in our best intereste to help them protect themselves and their oil(ooops? oil,,,that's a bad word w/ you guys right? LOL)..But i digressssssssssss

As for picking a side in Israel.....Logic dictates that it's because Israel is the lone true democracy in the region. that's my take, at least. You swirved into Michael Moore land w/ the American defense contractor comment(doesn't merrit a response). this is yet another example of what I mean by showing the same vitriol toward terrorist that show towards America. I don't see it! Hence, I can take the argument w/ a grain of salt. Can you honestly go back through your posts on this site and say you attack America and terrorsts equally? I'll bet you a nickle you can't! And that's your perogative. I just strongly disagree and to be quite honest, I get bored debating w/ people who twist history (like your arming UBL and getting 9/11 comment) just for the sake of hoping someone clueless to history will post that you "OWNED ME". lol

I think someone else chimed in... gotta run and be fair. I'm sure you folks are enjoying this shit. You see, I bring joy to your life by helping you deal w/ your bordom. HA! i guess us right wing gay hating, racist nazi's are good for something? lol

(attn: that was a joke. i hate no one! gotta clear that up for all those poor souls shackled w/ political correctness).

[Guest endymion]

defeating the Nazis without arming the Russians would have been tough, but that was a MUCH larger threat.

That brings up another relevant lesson from history. From Maj General Orlando Ward of the United States Army, emphasis and links are mine:

"Moreover, my purpose has been to tell the story of United States Army activity in the Persian Corridor during the war years 1941-1945. Since the true historical significance of that activity may well prove to be not the success of the aid-to-Russia supply effort-significant as that was to the victory-but the intimate association of the United States with the state of Iran, I have set the Army's story within the larger framework of economic, social, and political factors, without, I hope, taking my eye from the object, which was to show how the Army got there, what it did, and what its activity meant."

[Guest endymion]

We armed UBL and helped him push out the Russians(not "we got 9/11...that's EXACTLY what i mean by being intellectually dishonst.....WHY? Seems like emotion is getting the better of you and logic is being thrown to shit.)

You're saying that we must fight terrorists, and in the same post you defend arming Osama bin Laden with American munitions. That is an obvious, glaring self-contradiction.

The Russians were replaced in Afghanistan by the Taliban, who provided shelter to Al Qaeda, who we built up ourselves. If we had not armed the Mujahedeen then they would not have been able to transform into Al Qaeda and attack us on 9/11. The Soviets (not the Russians, Logic) never attacked us on our own soil and killed thousands of Americans, but those Mujahedeen who we armed did.

We armed Saddam and prevented Iran from going buck.

No, wrong. We armed Saddam and then disarmed Saddam. Iran's final position is of much greater standing and military reach. Iran attacked Israel on Israeli soil last year from Lebanon by proxy. Iran is supplying EFP IEDs to militants in Iraq who are using them to kill American troops by proxy. Iran is also supplying EFPs to the Taliban in Afghanistan to attack American troops there. Iran's standing and influence in the region have been increased due to our actions next door.

UBL used to blame attacking us because we put our troops in Saudi Arabia,,when in reality it was Saudi Arabia who INVITED us to put troops there out of fear of instability in that region (and it was in our best intereste to help them protect themselves and their oil(ooops? oil,,,that's a bad word w/ you guys right? LOL)..But i digressssssssssss

You're arguing my point instead of yours. Of course Osama bin Laden had shady motives. Which is why arming him was a mistake. It's shocking to see a member of the 'we do this because of 9/11' camp run around defending the military buildup of Osama bin Laden by the US. Just fascinating.

As for picking a side in Israel.....Logic dictates that it's because Israel is the lone true democracy in the region. that's my take, at least.

Interesting that you would characterize events in the Palestinian territories as being "in Israel", and then go on to refer to Israel as a "true democracy". There are currently three million disenfranchised Palestinians living inside of Israel, who have no political representation and no ability to vote. Israel cannot allow them to vote because then Israel would not be a Jewish state, which is a racist policy. Saudi Arabia does not let women vote, Israel does not let Arabs vote. That is not a "true democracy". And BTW, Hamas won an internationally-monitored democratic election in order to come to power. Democracy is obviously not the antidote to terrorism.

[Guest drlogic]

Okay, I think I understand what you are getting at. You are saying that the only way to fight whatever current enemy we have (Nazi's, Communism, Terrorism, Northern Aggression), is to team up with anybody who is our enemy's enemy. If that group then later becomes our enemy, that is an issue for a future generation, but at this moment it is the most expedient way of dealing with our enemies. Interesting solution.

Never said the ONLY WAY(You did!). I just explained WHY to someone who seemed to have a misguided view on history.

Personally, I'd rather see us team up with people who are unlikely to ever be our enemy, rather than arming potential enemies and leaving that problem to our kids.

You and me both. But while we hope for Utopia, we've gotta address the threat right away or risk more 9/11 while we pray the world becomes a better place on it's own.

But, if your assumption is that *only* teaming up with non-potential-enemies will not be able to deal with the current threat, then I see your point.

Again Coach, different times require differnt measures. I wish it were simpler.

For me, I assume that America *IS* strong enough to defend itself from the current threat *without* needing the help of people who are likely to become our enemy in the near future.

We are the strongest! I agree. We can fight on multiple fronts. But the assumption that we can't use help from nations which you believe are "likely" to become our enemy puzzles me. It's people who seem to share your view who complained about not engaging N. Korea or Iran in talks, and now you seem to want to alienate nations potentially inclinded to become our enemies?????? What gives???????? Liberalism sure is complicated! ;D

What I'm saying is that I think we could have defeated the U.S.S.R. without arming the Afghans. Okay, defeating the Nazis without arming the Russians would have been tough, but that was a MUCH larger threat. But, I really don't think that America is so weak that we need to ally with radical militants to defeat our enemies.

You think? I think if I had wheels and pedals I'd be a bicycle. Look Coach, I'm not trying to be a dick w/ you. I know my writing style indicates otherwise and I'm sorry for that. But that's just how I write. I hear tons of people complaining about everything we're doing w/ out offering any alternative solutions. That is a major sticking point w/ most libz. Hence, the teenage drama queen example. If this sucks then OKAY, WUCHOO BRING'N 2 DA' TABLE? Nothi'n? Quit yo' yapp'n, STFU and sit down or go home! (Not you specifically Coach).

As far as a few insane religious nuts being the "the greatest threat to freedom and liberty" (quote DrLogic), that is just ridiculous. If you believe that, you must be 16 and never studied history. The USSR with 1000 nukes pointed our way, that was a big threat to our freedom. Nazism that took over most of Europe, that was a big threat to freedom. A bunch of loonballs with Stinger missiles are not near that large of a problem. Oh, don't get me wrong, they are a problem alright! But in no way are they the greatest threat we have ever faced. *I* believe that America is strong enough to deal with this threat without making deals with the devil, I am sorry, DrLogic, that you do not.

This last one takes the cake and again proves to me the big differnece b/w folks like you and me. I do see this threat as the greatest threat our country faces. Definitely our generation. You don't. Neither did our gov't in the 90's. We paid dearlly as a result. I believe it's a much, much bigger deal than you realize. They are everywhere. There is no one nation we can say "okay, the enemy is from there" then go handle it. They're everywhere. They wear no uniform. this shit sucks. It's a scary enemy and we're dealing w/ it..FINALLY! That's my take. I hope it helps you better understand my perspective.

[Guest Seb]

One need only to have a brain to find the logic in this.

Generations ago, the enemies were Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. Not long ago the major threat was the spread of communism (ie..in Europe, Asia and the Americas). Today it’s terrorism.

Every generation had their band of useful idiots and appeasers and it had their hero’s who actually chose not to stick their heads in the sand and defend liberty. Now our generation is faced w/ the greatest threat to freedom and liberty and yet again we are witnessing both pure cowardice & appeasement while at the same time our own generation of hero’s are emerging. We only need to look in the mirror to find out where we stand in the greatest threat of our time. History will be the judge.

But for craps and giggles, let’s see how the “pseudo-patriots†on these boards feel regarding what Al Gore had to say about Iraq, Terrorists, WMD’s and how they’re all linked together. Can’t for the spin……SPIN, SPIN BABY! LOL You miserable little liberals. Dealing w/ you guys is like dealing w/ children. SERIOUSLY! “I want, I want, I want. That’s not fair! Gimme, gimme, gimme. No daddy, that’s scary..etc…†LOL Silly Rabbit, Trix are for kids!

such a noble freedom fighter you are : it's a good thing we have proud and smug Americans like yourself to tell us how it is. By the way, love the way you spun your post into a completely different direction instead of addressing the topic at hand, where did you explain any "Logic" in what Tech had originally posted? com'n this is a no spin zone

Sebastian,,,I’m not spinning. I simply reject the premise. To get into that little game bores me to death. I want to stimulate my mind, not spew diarrhea of the mouth. Different times require different measures. That is an undeniable fact. I don’t live in the world of self imposed shackles (ie.. political correctness). I completely see where u’r coming from when you say “smugâ€, but realize to me, I’m still right and have yet to hear/read anything that proves otherwise. So, it’s not bragging if you can back it up. I actually do believe in absolutes. For me, these absolutes are guided by my core beliefs which include our God given right of freedom. Note: God given. Not given by man. I know you’re my brothers boy so I won’t fuck w/ you that bad. Any friend of my bro obby is a friend of mine. I disagree w/ plenty of people, but I don’t hate. I never hate. Never have. I’m a pretty positive guy. I just get bored w/ the Michael Moore and Barbara Streisand nonsense. BORING!!!!!!! Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Remember, freedom isn’t free. It comes at a cost and usually a pretty hefty one. Freedom will constantly have to be defended and fought for. Be it against Nazi’s, Communists or Terrorists. For anyone to assume we brought this upon ourselves for arming these people back when they were fighting our #1 enemy is being intellectually dishonest. It sounds good on a msg brd. but it’s far from grounded.

Nazi’s wanted to create that “master raceâ€

Communists destroyed religion and anything moral

Terrorist want to destroy all religions except their warped version of Islam

I realize many folks wanna “fit in†@ the local Starbucks and that’s okay. God bless you. If that’s what tickles your pickle, by all means! But let’s not confuse misguided principles for any sort of bravery or wisdom because it’s neither. What you folks do here on these boards is easy and far from brave, which is why I assume you indulge as much and as often as you do.

Word to the wise: If you really wanna make some sort of progress w/ me or anyone like me, try attacking the terrorist just as often as you attack America. Given that we can barely get you folks to say 1 or 2 bad things about terrorist, it makes it hard to take you seriously. You’ve got a plethora of potty mouth attacks against this country and that’s okay w/ me. Just at the least, try applying an equal amount of discontent for the actually enemy (ie..terrorist….ie..bad people…ie…want us all dead….ie..especially you cause they have no tolerance for those who challenge them)…..

On another note, I’ve been going to Nikki Bch on Sundays to support Joey and my brother. If you guys go, I’ll be more than happy to “discuss†whatever issues you’d like…politics, dirty sluts, krippy, whatever..LOL If anyone doesn’t like me, then I’ll break their face! LOL Nah,,just kidd’n…..I just crack myself up!

Ta-ta 4 now kids.

It's all good Logic, sometimes it's more your approach I disagree with more than the message. Take the arrogance out and you may have more listeners either way I don't take it too seriously, just a bunch messageboard banter to get you through the day. We may just pass by Nikkis on Sunday to hear Obby 8)

btw Freedom costs a Buck o Five

[Guest endymion]

We are the strongest! I agree. We can fight on multiple fronts. But the assumption that we can't use help from nations which you believe are "likely" to become our enemy puzzles me. It's people who seem to share your view who complained about not engaging N. Korea or Iran in talks, and now you seem to want to alienate nations potentially inclinded to become our enemies?????? What gives???????? Liberalism sure is complicated! ;D

Who is suggesting arming Iran or North Korea? Yet you refuse to accept that arming Osama bin Laden was an obvious mistake in retrospect. What gives?

Fatah is not "a nation", by the way.

[Guest drlogic]

We arm others to help fight our enemies......you guys bitch!

We send our own troops to fight our enemies.......you guys bitch!

bitch bitch bitch

cry cry cry

why why why

You won.............an Orange Cream Mocha Frappuccino

[Guest coach]

Okay, I think I understand what you are getting at. You are saying that the only way to fight whatever current enemy we have (Nazi's, Communism, Terrorism, Northern Aggression), is to team up with anybody who is our enemy's enemy. If that group then later becomes our enemy, that is an issue for a future generation, but at this moment it is the most expedient way of dealing with our enemies. Interesting solution.

Never said the ONLY WAY(You did!). I just explained WHY to someone who seemed to have a misguided view on history.

Personally, I'd rather see us team up with people who are unlikely to ever be our enemy, rather than arming potential enemies and leaving that problem to our kids.

You and me both. But while we hope for Utopia, we've gotta address the threat right away or risk more 9/11 while we pray the world becomes a better place on it's own.

But, if your assumption is that *only* teaming up with non-potential-enemies will not be able to deal with the current threat, then I see your point.

Again Coach, different times require differnt measures. I wish it were simpler.

For me, I assume that America *IS* strong enough to defend itself from the current threat *without* needing the help of people who are likely to become our enemy in the near future.

We are the strongest! I agree. We can fight on multiple fronts. But the assumption that we can't use help from nations which you believe are "likely" to become our enemy puzzles me. It's people who seem to share your view who complained about not engaging N. Korea or Iran in talks, and now you seem to want to alienate nations potentially inclinded to become our enemies?????? What gives???????? Liberalism sure is complicated! ;D

What I'm saying is that I think we could have defeated the U.S.S.R. without arming the Afghans. Okay, defeating the Nazis without arming the Russians would have been tough, but that was a MUCH larger threat. But, I really don't think that America is so weak that we need to ally with radical militants to defeat our enemies.

You think? I think if I had wheels and pedals I'd be a bicycle. Look Coach, I'm not trying to be a dick w/ you. I know my writing style indicates otherwise and I'm sorry for that. But that's just how I write. I hear tons of people complaining about everything we're doing w/ out offering any alternative solutions. That is a major sticking point w/ most libz. Hence, the teenage drama queen example. If this sucks then OKAY, WUCHOO BRING'N 2 DA' TABLE? Nothi'n? Quit yo' yapp'n, STFU and sit down or go home! (Not you specifically Coach).

As far as a few insane religious nuts being the "the greatest threat to freedom and liberty" (quote DrLogic), that is just ridiculous. If you believe that, you must be 16 and never studied history. The USSR with 1000 nukes pointed our way, that was a big threat to our freedom. Nazism that took over most of Europe, that was a big threat to freedom. A bunch of loonballs with Stinger missiles are not near that large of a problem. Oh, don't get me wrong, they are a problem alright! But in no way are they the greatest threat we have ever faced. *I* believe that America is strong enough to deal with this threat without making deals with the devil, I am sorry, DrLogic, that you do not.

This last one takes the cake and again proves to me the big differnece b/w folks like you and me. I do see this threat as the greatest threat our country faces. Definitely our generation. You don't. Neither did our gov't in the 90's. We paid dearlly as a result. I believe it's a much, much bigger deal than you realize. They are everywhere. There is no one nation we can say "okay, the enemy is from there" then go handle it. They're everywhere. They wear no uniform. this shit sucks. It's a scary enemy and we're dealing w/ it..FINALLY! That's my take. I hope it helps you better understand my perspective.

Whoa! Wow, that was actually well stated. Yes, I do now see your perspective. And I can see how you came to conclusions you did. Man, I wish you'd post everything like that.

So, let me ask you this, not to be argumentative, but just to understand better. Your claim is that the terrorists are a greater threat than either Nazism or the USSR was. But the Nazis had millions of well-armed troops. The USSR did, as well, plus, they had at least hundreds of working nuclear weapons. These terrorists number in the 10s of thousands, maybe the hundreds of thousands, at most. They may be dispersed, but they are poorly armed, having mainly small arms and some amount of heavy artillary, compared to the previously mentioned adversaries. Why do you think they pose a greater threat?

[Guest endymion]

We arm others to help fight our enemies......you guys bitch!

We send our own troops to fight our enemies.......you guys bitch!

We sent hundreds of millions of dollars worth of munitions to our "friends" who become our enemies and use them against us. Americans die. Americans spend hundreds of billions of dollars to clean up the damage caused by hundreds of millions.

The only people who win in most court cases are the attorneys. The only people who seem to win when we arm militant Sunni groups are the defense contractors, and the militant Sunni groups themselves. Not us.

[MIRZA1414779019]

We arm others to help fight our enemies......you guys bitch!

We send our own troops to fight our enemies.......you guys bitch!

bitch bitch bitch

cry cry cry

why why why

You won.............an Orange Cream Mocha Frappuccino

I don’t understand your logic. Why do you feel the need to call others names that you disagree with? Do you think that you are getting your point across by ridiculing people? When someone asks you a question your response is I’m right your wrong and you never back anything up.

[Guest endymion]

If you really wanna make some sort of progress w/ me or anyone like me, try attacking the terrorist just as often as you attack America.

How do you conclude that arming Fatah with American weapons is "attacking the terrorist [sic]"?

Fatah fighters plan to wage a violent Iraq-style insurgency against the Islamists who now control Gaza.

The task will fall to men like Col. Balusha, a top officer in the Palestinian Authority's intelligence apparatus in the Gaza Strip.

"Fatah is not done with in Gaza yet. When the Baath Party fell in Iraq, the resistance continued," he said, making an effort to keep his voice level as his shaking hands nearly dropped a cup of tea. more...

How do you conclude that we would be fighting against terrorism by sending American military aid to people who openly acknowledge in advance that they plan to use our weapons to conduct an "Iraq-style insurgency" like the Baathist insurgents?

We armed the Mujahedeed, look what it got us. We armed Saddam Hussein, look what it got us. We armed the Shah of Iran, look what it got us. We armed Israel, look what it got us. When will Americans learn that selling guns to militants harms our national security and puts us in danger?