back2basics- Posted February 7 Report Share Posted February 7 Sorry for the politics, but this is kinda interesting.Ok I have been reading some political stuff recently and apparently Communitarianism is the new thing on that scene. Basically it says that what is right for one is not right for another. So people should band together in communities who have similar ideals. So, for instance, we could all live in a self sufficient community where drugs are legal... or whatever our shared values are.I think with the invent of the Internet and the rising tide of anti capitalist groups that there is a possibility of big change in the next decade or 2.What does everybody else think? http://www.libertyhaven.com/theoreticalorphilosophicalissues/libertarianism/libertacomm.html ------------------I want to go out blazing..not fade away.Trust in the currency of relationships, it's hard to earn but easy to loose - back2basics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickijay Posted February 7 Report Share Posted February 7 you guys can all move in with me....what a fun little community we will have....------------------ Boink like a snow bunny!!!uknj@aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReginaP Posted February 7 Report Share Posted February 7 Originally posted by back2basics-:What does everybody else think? I think that while gray is not a good slipper color for you, blue would suit you quite nicely ------------------=) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
safitamace319 Posted February 7 Report Share Posted February 7 Originally posted by back2basics-:Sorry for the politics, but this is kinda interesting.Ok I have been reading some political stuff recently and apparently Communitarianism is the new thing on that scene. Basically it says that what is right for one is not right for another. So people should band together in communities who have similar ideals. So, for instance, we could all live in a self sufficient community where drugs are legal... or whatever our shared values are.------------------------------------------so basically like how communism started out?------------------"Some Of Us Are Like Ink, And Some Like Paper.And If It Were Not For The Blackness Of Some Of Us, Some Of Us Would Be Dumb.And If It Were Not For The Whiteness Of Some Of Us, Some Of Us Would Be Blind."- Khalil Gibran-----------------------"A BIRD MAY LOVE A FISH SIGNORE, BUT WHERE WOULD THEY LIVE?""THEN I SHALL HAVE TO MAKE YOU WINGS"[This message has been edited by safitamace319 (edited 02-07-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back2basics- Posted February 7 Author Report Share Posted February 7 That's settled then we all move in with Nicki's randy roommates and neck loads of drugs... nice.Regina, yeh grey wouldn't go with my smoking jacket. Got a bit of a hangover this morning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReginaP Posted February 7 Report Share Posted February 7 Originally posted by back2basics-:Regina, yeh grey wouldn't go with my smoking jacket. Got a bit of a hangover this morning Well there's the shocker of the century Did you make it to the loo or did the walker get in the way? ------------------=) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back2basics- Posted February 7 Author Report Share Posted February 7 Originally posted by safitamace319:So basically how comunism started outLOL, Erm no nothing like that at all!?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ichi_gami Posted February 7 Report Share Posted February 7 sounds like a regression to ghettoes like the turn of the 20th century. End of the melting pot, beginning of Pat Buchanan-style "cultural wars" wherein my society is better than your society, and so on. Anarchic ones get overtaken by structured ones, and authoritarian demagogues rule.Sounds like not so much fun to me, I don't think. I think I'll just stick with taking my chances at breaking select laws.------------------Administrative Signature: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back2basics- Posted February 7 Author Report Share Posted February 7 Originally posted by ichi_gami:sounds like a regression to ghettoes like the turn of the 20th century. End of the melting pot, beginning of Pat Buchanan-style "cultural wars" wherein my society is better than your society, and so on. Anarchic ones get overtaken by structured ones, and authoritarian demagogues rule.Sounds like not so much fun to me, I don't think. I think I'll just stick with taking my chances at breaking select laws.Now we are getting somewhere.Why would there have to be culture wars? They are not competing against each other. In a way we already have this system on a global level. We have contries rather than comunities, all this is saying is it's scaled down.Capitalism and the global economy isn't working, politicians are looking for a new system. With capitalism counties like America get all the benafit at the expense of third world contries. So something has to change comunities work fact.Don't take my word for it.Just thinking back to yuor point WHY do you think there should be 'my comunity is better than yours' type situation?'But in recent years manners have been changing rapidly. Not only are the old values losing their hold, but values of any kind are deemed fair game for the knife and the mallet. Intellectuals apply their classroom dissection to hallowed notions-from theology to constitutional law. P. J. O'Rourke argues the whoredom of Congress, radioman and sometime gubernatorial candidate Howard Stern lampoons politics, television fathers Homer Simpson and Al Bundy make a farce of the loving family, rap singer Ice T smashes conventional thinking about law enforcement, and Hollywood ridicules organized religion. Sensuality and violence, those great solvents of sentimentality, permeate popular culture. Ours is the Age of Irreverence.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirdante Posted February 7 Report Share Posted February 7 there will be no big change anytime soon. big changes only come during times of extreme stress. otherwise nothing changes-- ever. the repressed, underprivilidged, and/or middle classes do not move towards upheaval of the system as long as there is food on the table. meanwhile, the status quo is maintained by the elite classes who know that to remain rich and powerful, they must work to keep things the same-- hence, the news media, lawyers, and politicians work seperately, and occasionally even conspire together, towards a common goal of repressing all new ideas.change therefore is subtle. the only real change comes from the individuals. you are absolutely correct, our internet communities exemplify this kind of progressive thinking. but when some of the kids you party with today grow older and have families and careers into which they have invested decades of their lives, dont be surprised to find that nothing in politics has changed.------------------i love music! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back2basics- Posted February 7 Author Report Share Posted February 7 Originally posted by sirdante:there will be no big change anytime soon. big changes only come during times of extreme stress. otherwise nothing changes-- ever. the repressed, underprivilidged, and/or middle classes do not move towards upheaval of the system as long as there is food on the table. meanwhile, the status quo is maintained by the elite classes who know that to remain rich and powerful, they must work to keep things the same-- hence, the news media, lawyers, and politicians work seperately, and occasionally even conspire together, towards a common goal of repressing all new ideas.change therefore is subtle. the only real change comes from the individuals. you are absolutely correct, our internet communities exemplify this kind of progressive thinking. but when some of the kids you party with today grow older and have families and careers into which they have invested decades of their lives, dont be surprised to find that nothing in politics has changed.So you think the anti-capitalism rally's are just a fad? They are huge in Europe, and getting bigger. They are getting violent because people see the damage that is being done by the global economy. Now i ain't some kind of actavist but they have a point.The system is too top heavy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickijay Posted February 7 Report Share Posted February 7 oh, you were trying to start a serious convo....silly me...but that's the problem, i just can't be serious right now, not when i'm all alone at work again! ichi-gami, i thought you said you had work to do......------------------ Boink like a snow bunny!!!uknj@aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ichi_gami Posted February 7 Report Share Posted February 7 Originally posted by back2basics-: Now we are getting somewhere.Just thinking back to yuor point WHY do you think there should be 'my comunity is better than yours' type situation?Not saying it would HAVE to, just that it inevitably would. This is a phenomenon known as human nature. Call me a cynic, I see it as realism.Communal systems breed complacency, as in those who can get away with doing the least, will. And others will follow suit. Eventually, supply is insufficient to satisfy demand, creating a lack of basic goods needed to survive. Granted, the coke will be wonderful but how about eating once in a great while? Collectivism inevitably leads to shared poverty among the masses, no matter how much good intent there is.Further, there will always be more ambitious persons in societies. These individuals tend to rally others around them, and with a touch of demagoguery, our lack of supply and bountiful plenty is the fault of the neighbors over the hill. So, if we go battle the neighbors over the hill, all will be right with our society again...except there will always be neighbors over the next hill. And all of this is for their own gain, at the society's expense.Right now, the US may be the bully on the playground...but after a while, those developing societies begin to want something in exchange for their work. The same cycle brought about unionization of industry in the US. And unionization pushed production offshore. Organizing labor offshore would be the first step to parity, but thit would also come at a great cost to the labor markets. And therefore, foreign governments refuse to allow it to happen. Is this the fault of the "Great Imperial Satan?" Or is it the fault of the powerful ruling class in such egalitarian collective countries as China?QED. ------------------Administrative Signature: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickijay Posted February 7 Report Share Posted February 7 Originally posted by ichi_gami: Not saying it would HAVE to, just that it inevitably would. This is a phenomenon known as human nature. Call me a cynic, I see it as realism.Communal systems breed complacency, as in those who can get away with doing the least, will. And others will follow suit. yep, there's some coplacency breeding my apt. which is why one chik is out and a boy is moving in, yay!! but really now, i think we could pull it off, we have 2 bathrooms.....------------------ Boink like a snow bunny!!!uknj@aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back2basics- Posted February 7 Author Report Share Posted February 7 Originally posted by ichi_gami: Not saying it would HAVE to, just that it inevitably would. This is a phenomenon known as human nature. Call me a cynic, I see it as realism.Communal systems breed complacency, as in those who can get away with doing the least, will. And others will follow suit. Eventually, supply is insufficient to satisfy demand, creating a lack of basic goods needed to survive. Granted, the coke will be wonderful but how about eating once in a great while? Collectivism inevitably leads to shared poverty among the masses, no matter how much good intent there is.Further, there will always be more ambitious persons in societies. These individuals tend to rally others around them, and with a touch of demagoguery, our lack of supply and bountiful plenty is the fault of the neighbors over the hill. So, if we go battle the neighbors over the hill, all will be right with our society again...except there will always be neighbors over the next hill. And all of this is for their own gain, at the society's expense.Right now, the US may be the bully on the playground...but after a while, those developing societies begin to want something in exchange for their work. The same cycle brought about unionization of industry in the US. And unionization pushed production offshore. Organizing labor offshore would be the first step to parity, but thit would also come at a great cost to the labor markets. And therefore, foreign governments refuse to allow it to happen. Is this the fault of the "Great Imperial Satan?" Or is it the fault of the powerful ruling class in such egalitarian collective countries as China?QED. Ok so as Labor in a country get's more expensive, as in the UK & in the US, and the manufacturing sectors move to other countries as in Mexico and Taiwan. Then those countries become more affluent and are also forced to become service sector countries and so on what happens when we run out of cheap labor? Prices go up, wages go up, prices go up, wages go up. Bit this political ideal isn't about that anyway, it's about grouping people together by ideal, I am not sure if it even tackles the short comings of capitalism (I just mentioned it because changes ARE needed). I think your thinking this is based on communism when it isn't. There are still aspects of capitalism to 'motivate'.Did you study politics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirdante Posted February 7 Report Share Posted February 7 Originally posted by back2basics-: So you think the anti-capitalism rally's are just a fad? They are huge in Europe, and getting bigger. They are getting violent because people see the damage that is being done by the global economy. Now i ain't some kind of actavist but they have a point.The system is too top heavy.yes, unfortunately, i do believe they are a fad (or we could use another word, but lets not argue semantics). the same types of rallies occurred 30 years ago. anti-expansionism/ anti- war movements were more passionate in europe than in the USA and even here they reached a high level of intensity. to all involved it seemed a revolution was inevitable. at that time there were major social, political, and economic stresses. 30 years later, these movements have not made any noticble effective change. the berlin wall fell not because the rising middle and lower classes brought it down but because the governments themselves could no longer economically support the cold war. the generation that carried signs, smoked grass in the park, and advocated free love grew up to become regular moms and dads who vote the same as their parents voted and do not rock the boat. it turns out that most of the ppl involved in the rallies of the 60s were really just young ppl looking for a sex and drugs party as an outlet for their youthful aggression. sad but true.------------------i love music! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ichi_gami Posted February 7 Report Share Posted February 7 Sirdante is spot-on in his assessment, in my opinion. Anarchism, communitarianism, communism, laissez-faire capitalism...all are fads with good sides and bad. Regulated capitalism has proven itself time and again to be the most equal in the long run, most productive by any measure, and fairest in terms of basic human condition.b2b, politics was, and is, a great interest of mine along with economics, but not my major. All I did was take the courses and go to dinner and party with the profs. ------------------Administrative Signature: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back2basics- Posted February 7 Author Report Share Posted February 7 Cool, i find all this interesting for some reason.Either of you recomend a good book? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ichi_gami Posted February 7 Report Share Posted February 7 translucent boils it down to basest terms...props to ya.b2b - books are ancient history by the time they get published and distributed. there are far more timely journals (peer-reviewed scholarly studies in addition to the partisan tripe rags), but i've been away from them for some time (no more easy access to the college library, ya know...)I'll look them up again.------------------Administrative Signature: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
translucent Posted February 8 Report Share Posted February 8 Originally posted by back2basics-:...Communitarianism is the new thing on that scene...I agree with all of the aforementioned reasons why Communitarianism is not the best hope for a utopian future. Perhaps the major reason why it wouldn't work is that it completely diregards the old "idiot factor." These sort of political/social systems might work amongst a bunch of intellectuals who see the greater good. Unfortunately, the majority of the world is comprised of selfish, slovenly and hostile party poopers who are way too myopic to see past their basic animal urges. Inevitably, they would crash the great Communitarian love-fest and drag off all the women by their hair.------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirdante Posted February 9 Report Share Posted February 9 machiavellis "the prince" is as good as any. gives you understanding of another time and another place where, despite different problems, there are so many similarities.------------------i love music! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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