Commercialization of the scene...

[PinkFloyd40]

One inescapable fact of the club scene today is that it has become extremely commercialized. With Corporations running clubs, events selling out arena's and even the ultimate in captilistic influence, television commercials(thank oakie for this one) there is no doubt that what once was considered "underground" has evolved into the money making giant it is today.

my question is...

do people think that this influx of market appeal for the scene is helpful or harmful? and i'm not talking about blatent overcommercialization (ie Gatecrasher), but rather, as MOBY put it, selling out ethically.. does it not give us the phazon systems of the world? the productional wizadry of BT and his use of innovative new music generation techniques?

there can be no doubt that the quality of music has augmented w/ the influx of capital into the scene.. as have generally most aspects.. but at what cost? has it lost its roots during the transformation? or is the overcommercialization argument simply a smoke screen behind which those elitists who aim to keep it exclusive and not inclusive, hide behind?

any insights?

sorry to go off on a tangent... slow day at work

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"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they never use" -Soren Kierkegaard

"People who know little are usually great talkers, while men who know much say little." -Rousseau

"One must learn to be a sponge if one wants to be loved by hearts that overflow." -Frederich Neitzsche 2-Brandie&Rob-11

[SOLE1]

Didn't even read the whole post, but I already agree with you 110%....It just ain't the same!!!!

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[mik-e_smilez]

The argument is a double edged sword. on one side you have the evil commericailization of a scene. A huge influx of clueless people who have little sense of the true values of a scene. They are they because Dawson went to a "rave" and they thought it was cool. So now you are surrounded by these "trendy" people and those of us who have been out there for a while feel threatened and say oh it's not the same. The vibe is all wrong. (e.g. Twilo last friday is the most recent example) Is this a bad thing?

Not always. It is nice to get fresh minds inot a scene to bring parts of themselves to what will eventually become a stale scene without new blood. Of course with a large influx of new people there will be a large influence of clueless "assholes". One of two things will happen either they will realize it is not for them and go away, or they realize it is for them and stay. The fact that they stay may signal to some the death of a scene. Scenes never die truly. They fall out of the spotlight or adapt or morph into something else. Yes things are not like how they used to be. They can't be. That's the whole thing. Life is about forward motion. Otherwise you could end up like Disco Stu from the Simpsons.

As far as for the selling out thing. On some levels it is selling out, but since many of us are now old enough to be the young hip designers/directors or dirrerent firms, we will bring what we like to them. So you get things like the commerical with the "Detroit Techno" slogan for some car company. You get films like Pi, The Virgin Suicides, Go, Groove, Human Traffic and Trainspotting that use and showcase this new music. Yes it does bother me to see a commerical on tv with and 800 number to buy a Progressive Trance albulm, but what like i said time moves on things change.

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'i wish U Heaven'

"People who talk in metaphors should shampoo my crotch"

"and remember Kids, You Can't spell cracKed out with K"

aol IM=MikE420DKE

[spoonyd]

I don't believe that innovation has ever been a product of commercialization. If anything it tends to homogenize and stagnate. Though it is possible to be innovative in a commercial setting, that likelyhood is small. In my opinion, true creativity, and diversity can only be found in the fringes, so far from the mainstream that thought can be expressed without judgement or ridicule or with one eye on the bottom line.

Commercialization is not bad per-se. I just think that people have to fess up to the fact that it really does mean the death of something with respect to its cultural purity.

I don't think you can maintain mainstream popularity and true innovation creativity at the same time.

Just my thoughts - sick of work too.

[back2basics-]

He he I like this one.

Shit where to start.

With artist they do deserve money, no matter what people say really most artists goal is to reach as many people as possible.

Most of us like music that isn't liked by the masses and certainly isn't bought by the masses. I think one day it will be (when people 'get it'), but for now when an artist makes a progressive song for a club he knows it won't be bought by many people. Huge amounts of people will listen to it many on compilations, mix tapes, napster etc. So he knows it's getting around.

But to sell albums & singles you have to conform to the rules. The rules being what the average jo smo wants to here. So everything gets toned down, you take out the drum roles, break downs and you structure the song around a chorus etc.

This year there hasn't been a truly great non-mix album released. Nothing new, same old same old. Things are beginning to get a little stale, a little repetitive and I thinkthe reason is that because there is so much money in it nobody want's to take a risk.

I think as the label grows or is bought by one of the bigger labels then the creative leash is being tightened.

It's still the small labels that come out with all the best music. How many time have you listened to a track and thought where have these people come from? Never herd of them before, and how many times have you awaited a new release from a big artist and though.. ahh so that will be shit then.

So I think money has two contributing factors.

1) When the artist has money, they loose motivation.

2) When the label is big risk taking is harder to do.

Ok there are all these film tie-ins now, and people being asked to re-mix Madonna, U2 etc. But that doesn't affect what we listen to apart from maybe taking time away from the artist to make 'proper' music. Look at William Orbit, he still bangs out great stuff... and had a HUGE smash with Madonna.

So I think it's all up to the artist and the Label. BT is a great example of somebody getting it right. He can release a TOTALLY commercial radio album then do something like Hip Hop Phenomenon... he has got the balance right.

I know a very well know group of DJ's and producers. Most people here will have herd of them, they had an amazing future ahead of them 5 years ago. Now they are all crack heads playing gigs in LA to feed there habit.. that's another problem money can cause.

I think that quote from Moby was when he was asked if the could use a track to advertise some meat product.. he said no because it would go against his values.

The values of Acid house in the UK were anti system, anti corporation (remember KLF burning a million pounds?) it was as much about the values (and ok drugs) as it was the music. People wearing smiley faces etc. Now it's about ME ME ME. Looking good and having a good time, maybe copping off. So that was the first big change of commercialization. The second big change from a customer point of view was the superclub. To put on the show that most clubs do and to deck the club out in the first place take LOT'S of investment. This didn't come from within the scene it came from the big entertainment companies (with a few exceptions) so that has taken it's toll on the vibe IMO. I think they again think we can't have a half empty club so we have to go with the safe bet, so book PvD, book Sasha etc. And that is why it's HARD to get in to DJing. But more than that because the people running the smaller clubs are now people with rich dad's or investment people it's how much arse you kiss rather than pure tallent that get's you in, in the first place. Again all these things IMO have taken the freshness out of the music & the vibe.

So to sum up i think when you first enter the scene you are more motivated and are looking at it from a fresh prospective (we have seen new people, time & time again coming out with the best stuff), then the scene, money & motivation corrupts you and things start fitting in with the tried and tested formular.

Shit i have to stop.. but loads more to say.

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I want to go out blazing..not fade away.

Trust in the currency of relationships, it's hard to earn but easy to loose - back2basics

[mik-e_smilez]

The argument is a double edged sword. on one side you have the evil commericailization of a scene. A huge influx of clueless people who have little sense of the true values of a scene. They are they because Dawson went to a "rave" and they thought it was cool. So now you are surrounded by these "trendy" people and those of us who have been out there for a while feel threatened and say oh it's not the same. The vibe is all wrong. (e.g. Twilo last friday is the most recent example) Is this a bad thing?

Not always. It is nice to get fresh minds inot a scene to bring parts of themselves to what will eventually become a stale scene without new blood. Of course with a large influx of new people there will be a large influence of clueless "assholes". One of two things will happen either they will realize it is not for them and go away, or they realize it is for them and stay. The fact that they stay may signal to some the death of a scene. Scenes never die truly. They fall out of the spotlight or adapt or morph into something else. Yes things are not like how they used to be. They can't be. That's the whole thing. Life is about forward motion. Otherwise you could end up like Disco Stu from the Simpsons.

As far as for the selling out thing. On some levels it is selling out, but since many of us are now old enough to be the young hip designers/directors or dirrerent firms, we will bring what we like to them. So you get things like the commerical with the "Detroit Techno" slogan for some car company. You get films like Pi, The Virgin Suicides, Go, Groove, Human Traffic and Trainspotting that use and showcase this new music. Yes it does bother me to see a commerical on tv with and 800 number to buy a Progressive Trance albulm, but what like i said time moves on things change.

------------------

'i wish U Heaven'

"People who talk in metaphors should shampoo my crotch"

"and remember Kids, You Can't spell cracKed out with K"

aol IM=MikE420DKE

[tonygmo]

Two words: Britney Spears. Enough said?

As electronica goes mainstream America will destroy everything positive about the music/scene. It's inevitable.

[msoprano]

Originally posted by PFloyd40:

One inescapable fact of the club scene today is that it has become extremely commercialized. With Corporations running clubs, events selling out arena's and even the ultimate in captilistic influence, television commercials(thank oakie for this one) there is no doubt that what once was considered "underground" has evolved into the money making giant it is today.

my question is...

do people think that this influx of market appeal for the scene is helpful or harmful? and i'm not talking about blatent overcommercialization (ie Gatecrasher), but rather, as MOBY put it, selling out ethically.. does it not give us the phazon systems of the world? the productional wizadry of BT and his use of innovative new music generation techniques?

there can be no doubt that the quality of music has augmented w/ the influx of capital into the scene.. as have generally most aspects.. but at what cost? has it lost its roots during the transformation? or is the overcommercialization argument simply a smoke screen behind which those elitists who aim to keep it exclusive and not inclusive, hide behind?

any insights?

sorry to go off on a tangent... slow day at work

rob what are you babbling about again

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TWILO'S WACK !!!! Sorry guys it is

"dont be affraid to walk out on anything in 30 seconds flat if you feel the heat coming from around the corner" Robert Deniro

AIM:msoprano13

Email:msoprano13@yahoo.com

"IM GONNA MAKE YOU AN OFFER YOU CANT REFUSE" MSOPRANO13

[highmay]

HMMMMM...interesting thought. Let me see if what I contemplated helps:

Think of Alex Rodriguez and Tiger Woods. They might make a lot of money through their respective sports, but let's not forgot the million dollar contracts they have with Nike, or the deal Tiger has with Buick, or the deals that ARod has with his personal PR staff, a private jet company, and Giorgio Armani. What they have are multiple streams of revenue. They just started out with making money from their employers, then added on complimentary salaries afterwards.

See the way they're marketing themselves? They have created relationships with reputable companies that send out a certain image, one that Tiger and ARod fit.

Now, people are finding that the qualities that embody "the nightclub"--say, beautiful people, beautiful music, or the club itself-- appeal to the masses. In this case, it seems inevitable that, in due time, a quality DJ or nightclub would be massively marketed, like all those ads for John Digweed's new mix cd that you see on virtually every block in Manhattan, or how KTU holds functions at Exit. The formers are merely finding other ways to make money and promote themselves to their select market, whether it be the whole world, or the minority of people who love Diggie's style.

Is this commercialization bad, you ask? IMO, I don't think so. This is part of the evolution of the club scene. In the world of economics, people are making more money now than 5 years ago, so people can't argue the fact that you have to pay $30 for door at the Tunnel or $35 at Exit or Twilo because a) the people have the money, and rent and general overhead is higher, so they must find a way to cover it. Right?

The scene has evolved to beautiful venues such as the renovation of SF or Exit about half a year ago, and the fusion of different musical genres to create a song like Spente Le Stelle, or what BT does.

Then again, the scene now features MP3 DJs, AOL promoters, The WWF, unneccessated drama, radio stations and porn companies hosting events, and misinformation. Those, I think, should be considered byproducts that will go by the wayside in due time.

Now has it lost its underground roots? I don't know. I still see a love for underground venues such as Vinyl, or Level 1 at Sound Factory on Saturdays. The RIGHT people know about it, and keep those vibes alive. If you want to consider that exclusive, I would have to agree that it's a smoke screen against the outside world.

In the end, the nightclubs that do it right still hold the tough door policy, still promote to, and get, the crowd they are looking for, and still know that, without a damn good DJ, your club isn't making a dime. Everything else is peripheral for the clubs to make money. You can't really blame them, they're trying to be as successful as they can.

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SUPERHIGHMAY

AOL: Highmay9

Napster: Jayme

[PinkFloyd40]

i think i may have been somewhat ambiguous in stating that the quality of music has been raised..

of course there is the trap that most tend to fall in as econmic prosperity becomes attainable.. however, i was speaking more along a techinical view of things.. not necessarily innovation of thought, but of product(ie new synths, software etc.). So in that sense, those who can, as b2b said about BT, balance the two and avoid the road path toward uniformity, will therefore raise precedents in music by transforming and utilizing the advantages w/ which the evolution of the scene has introduced.

what we have to remember is that although there will be those who look to prey on the the pure essence of the scene and take advantage, and while pop culture seems to dilute those artists who attempt to(excuse the cliche) keep it real admist a sea of parasites, they do still exist. It's the BT's and DT's of the world who, imo, use the tremendous flow of cash into this culture, while the true clubber reaps the benefits. If DT weren't keeping it real, he wouldn't hold a residency at a fairly small city club w/ no alcohol where he most likely makes very little money in comparison w/ the other dj's in the world.

so its up to the individual to weed out the superficial aspects of the culture, and find its original roots b/c (as someone further up on this thread already stated) they never die, and the way i see it, that is when you'll find the advantages that capital has given us

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"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they never use" -Soren Kierkegaard

"People who know little are usually great talkers, while men who know much say little." -Rousseau

"One must learn to be a sponge if one wants to be loved by hearts that overflow." -Frederich Neitzsche 2-Brandie&Rob-11

[This message has been edited by PFloyd40 (edited 02-14-2001).]

[perfecto25]

i agree with tonygmo, as soon as this hits mainstream, its on a downward spiral, think grunge rock, early nineties. boom, not much grunge today now is there. i will always dread the day our scene goes mainstream america. thats what happened to hip hop/rap, white kids think they can relate to gheto stories and shit, fucks up the whole scene, theres always gona be great artists no matter what, but that feeling, the aura, underground vibe of exclusiveness, its gone baby bye bye bye, enjoy the melodies while u can people!

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kroshka moya, ya po tebe skuchayu

[highmay]

We need to give out a couple of facts:

1. There is a financial market in the world for dance music.

2. People must respect an artist for experimenting and stretch out their artistic muscles.

I think that a fusion of product and thought is necessary in order to learn what NOT to do and who NOT to respect. There is always someone who "sells out" because their main motivation is money. It's a level very easily attainable. It's like rappers throwing lyrics out on a record about guns and violence because every other rapper has success doing it. Another example is taking a classic and remaking it under your name WHILE NOT DOING JUSTICE TO ITS ORIGINAL.

Precedents have been raised, though. It's not like every song nowadays sounds as good or worse as any song from two years ago. Good Producers and DJs have grown from two years ago. For example, there has always been a unity of opera and dance, but it took Paul Masterson (aka Yomanda) to fuse the two together successfully to create a beautiful song, IMO and in the opinions of a lot of people. Artists are constantly experimenting with dance and having it accepted by everyone. Look at that song by Bjorn Svin, Mand Over Board.

Now there are people who DON'T understand about honoring the artistic license and seeing only greed in what they pursue. Rob, and to everyone on the board, people like that are always going to be here. And it's not in just this scene, it's in any scene you can think of. People are always going to "jump on the bandwagon" and come out with low-quality music that will never be respected by people who do understand what is and isn't quality music.

I think we, as people who love dance music and understand the club scene, should honor the scene and the music as we do now. When club life isn't individually apart of us anymore, we have to, at least, make sure that we left the scene better than when we entered it. It's the only way to stay original.

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SUPERHIGHMAY

AOL: Highmay9

Napster: Jayme

[PinkFloyd40]

******bump******

(posted this at the end of the day yesterday.. want it to surface at peak posting time)

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"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they never use" -Soren Kierkegaard

"People who know little are usually great talkers, while men who know much say little." -Rousseau

"One must learn to be a sponge if one wants to be loved by hearts that overflow." -Frederich Neitzsche 2-Brandie&Rob-11

[highmay]

BUMP

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SUPERHIGHMAY

AOL: Highmay9

Napster: Jayme

[highmay]

BUMP

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SUPERHIGHMAY

AOL: Highmay9

Napster: Jayme

[Unbound]

I love these threads ! -thanks PFloyd40!

as for my own $0.02 -well its all evolution!

dont fight it embrace it!

the hippies didnt stick around forever - why do you expect us to?

btw PFloyd's the wall keeps staying on the billboard top 40 since its realease - classics will be created (as you mentioned BT -will probably be one of them) but i could only imagine how its gonna be!

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Unbound getting UNWOUND

K alwayscomesbac K

TëMA

AIM: ZUinc2000