What Timothy McVeigh said....

[Twilo Beauty]

Originally posted by karch:

I was watching all these news programs yesterday. Some showed interviews of Timothy McVeigh that were taken like 4-5 months ago. Anyways in one of the interviews, McVeigh said that: If the US goverment uses violence, such as in Sudan, Afganistan, and Iraq. Violence should be able to be used against the US goverment.

I think there rings a truth in that, that people don't really see. Our goverment kills so many innocent people, like in the areas of the world as was stated above. They don't get punished for it. The US goverment might be the biggest terrorist in the world.

That's like the blind leading the blind, don't you think?"

It's true that the US government is very hypocritical. I happen to slightly agree with Timothy's ideology. But it's nothing new. He was just a sheep. He wasn't a Jerry Rubin or Malcolm X. He was just a regular average fucking Joe with nothing to do..white fucking trash. The problem is that, along with other assasins and American terrorists, Timothy had the wrong solution.

If we follow american example, then we're not going to win a war(i use this term loosley) against this government.

That's what we have grown up with, Reagan, Iran, Terminator movies, Platoon, and my GOD, what the fuck was Waco about?

We aren't a very creative nation. That's all we're familiar with..violence. Fucking boring if you ask me.

I suppose if I were a US marshall..I'd be highly respected if I go around killing fugitives. I'd be a hero.

*Disgusting*

-iliana

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[tastyt]

Originally posted by twistednick:

What is wrong with you people. What he did is flat out wrong. So what is the US bombs other contries. Even though sometimes it is fucked up, there is a reason why it is done and most of the time it is a good reason. McVeigh is a piece of confused shit. He is white trash to the fullest and he got off to easy with the death penality. They should have put in in general population in jail for the rest of his life and became everones bitch just for starters. We live in the greatest country in the world and you mother fuckers should learn to respect it. If you dont like it get the fuck out of here.

Umm, hello... NOBODY is even remotely defending what he did...

Did you even BOTHER to read what everyone wrote?

By the way, one of the things that makes this "the greatest country in the world" is the fact that we are ABLE to question and possibly affect what our government does. If this country had no dissenters... we'd still be a colony of England's.

If you don't like it... why don't YOU "get the fuck out of here" and move somewhere where freedom of speech is not tolerated.

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Let me take you on a journey into bliss.

[kramadas]

Originally posted by tastyt:

Umm, hello... NOBODY is even remotely defending what he did...

Did you even BOTHER to read what everyone wrote?

By the way, one of the things that makes this "the greatest country in the world" is the fact that we are ABLE to question and possibly affect what our government does. If this country had no dissenters... we'd still be a colony of England's.

If you don't like it... why don't YOU "get the fuck out of here" and move somewhere where freedom of speech is not tolerated.

THANK YOU!

Guess some people have never heard of something called "another opinion".

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"I would believe only in a god who could dance."

Nietzche

[karch]

Originally posted by twistednick:

What is wrong with you people. What he did is flat out wrong. So what is the US bombs other contries. Even though sometimes it is fucked up, there is a reason why it is done and most of the time it is a good reason. McVeigh is a piece of confused shit. He is white trash to the fullest and he got off to easy with the death penality. They should have put in in general population in jail for the rest of his life and became everones bitch just for starters. We live in the greatest country in the world and you mother fuckers should learn to respect it. If you dont like it get the fuck out of here.

Hey I know a country you could live in. Cuba. No one questions the goverment there. I think tastyt explained it the best. That's the reason why I started this thread. I never said what Timothy McVeigh did was right.

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[sassa]

Originally posted by karch:

Well, I don't think was Timothy McVeigh did was right. That was totally wrong and cowardly. I'm just saying isn't that what the US goverment does also? People don't realize that I think.

I agree with you.I think what Timothy McVeigh was trying to do was open the eyes of the American people to the situation.The US twists their media around so that they come out looking like the good guys,while innocent people die every day around the world because of sanctions and wars that the US involves themselves in,mainly for selfish,opportunistic reasons (The Gulf War,for example.Does anyone REALLY believe that the US got involved with that to protect Kuwait from Iraq?Bullshit.They didn't give two fucks about the Kuwaiti people...what they cared about was the oil that this country was supplying to them,and if Iraq took that away,prices would soar over here,provoking riots and a lot of lost money.Everything the US does is for money..that's why economics and politics are inseperable).Of course,they'll try to glorify their actions with some stupid story and expect the American people to eat it up,mainly because they are not exposed to anything else...read other countries' media and news,you might be surprised...

Anyways,I think he was trying to send a message to the American people..for instance,in his poem,there is a part that reads:

"In the fell clutch of circumstance

I have not winced nor cried aloud

Under the bludgeonings of chance

My head is bloody, but unbowed.

I am the master of my fate:

I am the captain of my soul."

My head is bloody but unbowed,which means he is not taken in by what the government tries to manipulate people with.Just read the poem,find it online.It makes a lot of sense.

The Washington Post described him as being "decorative but disillusional",but was he really disillusional or is it the American people that are?

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Sassa

[armada]

Originally posted by karch:

Hey I know a country you could live in. Cuba. No one questions the goverment there. I think tastyt explained it the best. That's the reason why I started this thread. I never said what Timothy McVeigh did was right.

But you see how fucked up this thread got, right? Why? Because by mentioning the words of McVeigh and the fact that he questioned the gov't and was like MLK in this questioning, people miss your point. You are passively (or maybe not so passively) supporting McVeigh like thinking. That sounds like a defense of him. This would have been far more effective if you had attempted to make your points without mentioning McVeigh. Delivery and compelete thought process are often more important than just sputtering out some idealogy.

[sassa]

Originally posted by karch:

Well, I don't think was Timothy McVeigh did was right. That was totally wrong and cowardly. I'm just saying isn't that what the US goverment does also? People don't realize that I think.

I agree with you.I think what Timothy McVeigh was trying to do was open the eyes of the American people to the situation.The US twists their media around so that they come out looking like the good guys,while innocent people die every day around the world because of sanctions and wars that the US involves themselves in,mainly for selfish,opportunistic reasons (The Gulf War,for example.Does anyone REALLY believe that the US got involved with that to protect Kuwait from Iraq?Bullshit.They didn't give two fucks about the Kuwaiti people...what they cared about was the oil that this country was supplying to them,and if Iraq took that away,prices would soar over here,provoking riots and a lot of lost money.Everything the US does is for money..that's why economics and politics are inseperable).Of course,they'll try to glorify their actions with some stupid story and expect the American people to eat it up,mainly because they are not exposed to anything else...read other countries' media and news,you might be surprised...

Anyways,I think he was trying to send a message to the American people..for instance,in his poem,there is a part that reads:

"In the fell clutch of circumstance

I have not winced nor cried aloud

Under the bludgeonings of chance

My head is bloody, but unbowed.

I am the master of my fate:

I am the captain of my soul."

My head is bloody but unbowed,which means he is not taken in by what the government tries to manipulate people with.Just read the poem,find it online.It makes a lot of sense.

The Washington Post described him as being "decorative but disillusional",but was he really disillusional or is it the American people that are?

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Sassa

[tastyt]

Originally posted by armada:

But you see how fucked up this thread got, right? Why? Because by mentioning the words of McVeigh and the fact that he questioned the gov't and was like MLK in this questioning, people miss your point. You are passively (or maybe not so passively) supporting McVeigh like thinking. That sounds like a defense of him. This would have been far more effective if you had attempted to make your points without mentioning McVeigh. Delivery and compelete thought process are often more important than just sputtering out some idealogy.

This thread got fucked up because of a knee-jerk reaction and inability to even try to look at things from a different angle.

Just because something someone said makes you stop and think- doesn't mean you condone everything they do!

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Let me take you on a journey into bliss.

[armada]

Originally posted by tastyt:

This thread got fucked up because of a knee-jerk reaction and inability to even try to look at things from a different angle.

Just because something someone said makes you stop and think- doesn't mean you condone everything they do!

No, it works the other way. McVeigh did something that is abhorrent so therefore it pretty much negates any credibility he may have and anything he may say. If he had said what he said and then took proper actions of protest, then you stop and think and maybe you have a point. But this guy wasn't really concerned with that. He wanted an excuse to destroy. That is why any 'message' he may have wanted to send or why anything that you see fit to think about based on HIM, is garbage!

His supposed message that the U.S. does immoral, illegal or otherwise horrible things is not origianl. Don't use him as the poster child for this type of cause because as stated before, the message is lost.

I still don't think he was overly concerned with letting me or the rest of the world know of the atrocities committed by the US gov't but if you think his intentions were that noble, that's your choice.

[This message has been edited by armada (edited 06-13-2001).]

[bang_66_]

Okay, I think Mcveigh viewed HIMSELF as a hero. He condemned Government action against the Wacco incident. He believed the government moved against it's OWN citizens and caused the now famous Wacco fire. (I personally think that Janet Reno fucked up and it was her worst mistake in office.)

McVeigh believed that he was acting against a fascist government and used his "right to bear arms." He claims that he didn't know there were children but that it collateral damage in view of his "greater" goal.

does that make it ok? - NO

He was extremist and even if he was angry at the government why not peacefully protest right?

For the curious, here is part of the constitution about citizens 'bearing' arms against government.

AMENDMENT II

A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

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"And he applies his mind to obscure arts..."

-Ovid M. VIII

G' LOW G' OATS

[tastyt]

Originally posted by armada:

No, it works the other way. McVeigh did something that is abhorrent so therefore it pretty much negates any credibility he may have and anything he may say. If he had said what he said and then took proper actions of protest, then you stop and think and maybe you have a point. But this guy wasn't really concerned with that. He wanted an excuse to destroy. That is why any 'message' he may have wanted to send or why anything that you see fit to think about based on HIM, is garbage!

His supposed message that the U.S. does immoral, illegal or otherwise horrible things is not origianl. Don't use him as the poster child for this type of cause because as stated before, the message is lost.

I still don't think he was overly concerned with letting me or the rest of the world know of the atrocities committed by the US gov't but if you think his intentions were that noble, that's your choice.

[This message has been edited by armada (edited 06-13-2001).]

Sigh... I'll repeat myself... NOBODY is defending him.

BTW, using your logic- and this goes full-circle, proving the original point- if his abhorrent actions negate any credibility his words may have had- then the atrocities commited by the US gov. negates it's credibility as well.

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Let me take you on a journey into bliss.

[armada]

Originally posted by tastyt:

Sigh... I'll repeat myself... NOBODY is defending him.

BTW, using your logic- and this goes full-circle, proving the original point- if his abhorrent actions negate any credibility his words may have had- then the atrocities commited by the US gov. negates it's credibility as well.

And I'll repeat myself! Do not associate him with what may be an otherwise valid point. By doing so, your point is lost because it is difficult to separate his act from his idealogy. For him, they are one and the same. The point/argument may have validity but if you are using him as the one who 'opened everyone's eyes' or is the spokesman against gov't atrocities, you are sympathising and supporting his act/idealogy.

It would be similar to using someone who shot the Pope in the name of abortion rights as a crusader for those rights. The message is lost because of the horrible act.

As far as the US Gov't, I made no comments regarding what they do or their credibility.

[danm]

Originally posted by raver_mania:

Even going by your numbers....is it OK that 1% of the time its massacre? How many ppl is 1% - a hundred, a thousand? AND at the same time you're condemning McVeigh? Thats hypocricy.

You see - this is what I mean - DOUBLE STANDARD. Most ppl are too blind to see it.

I can't believe you are comparing what McVeigh did and what our government does overseas. When they DO happen to kill innocent people, it is NOT intentional. THAT is the difference. As I said before, sometimes we HAVE to use force to stop some of these countries from going too far. And sometimes, innocent people end up dying. But a building full of innocent people and children is NEVER the target.

[tastyt]

Okay Armada, I see your point, I really do. I was trying to imagine defending something that came out of Hitler's mouth and I couldn't even think of anything he would have said that was positive.

However I still find it amusing the number of people who will defend nearly any of the US's actions. If the thread had nothing to do with McVeigh, and was only about immoral actions our government may have taken, I don't think the responses would have been that different.

When it comes to our govt's actions, do you really think our media is presenting us with all sides of the story? We have no idea how much of what we're fed is propaganda. Of course they're going to do their damndest to put a spin on the stories to make us look like the good guys.

(BTW I'm not addressing that specifically towards you)

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Let me take you on a journey into bliss.

[This message has been edited by tastyt (edited 06-13-2001).]

[kramadas]

Originally posted by danm:

I can't believe you are comparing what McVeigh did and what our government does overseas. When they DO happen to kill innocent people, it is NOT intentional. THAT is the difference. As I said before, sometimes we HAVE to use force to stop some of these countries from going too far. And sometimes, innocent people end up dying. But a building full of innocent people and children is NEVER the target.

And you're really going to believe everything the govt tells you?? There is something called propanda...

I agree 100% with TastyT's post above.

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"I would believe only in a god who could dance."

Nietzche

[This message has been edited by raver_mania (edited 06-13-2001).]

[armada]

Originally posted by tastyt:

Okay Armada, I see your point, I really do. I was trying to imagine defending something that came out of Hitler's mouth and I couldn't even think of anything he would have said that was positive.

However I still find it amusing the number of people who will defend nearly any of the US's actions. If the thread had nothing to do with McVeigh, and was only about immoral actions our government may have taken, I don't think the responses would have been that different.

When it comes to our govt's actions, do you really think our media is presenting us with all sides of the story? We have no idea how much of what we're fed is propaganda. Of course they're going to do their damndest to put a spin on the stories to make us look like the good guys.

(BTW I'm not addressing that specifically towards you)

Yeah, I was thinking about it in relation to the Nazis as well. Great minds think alike!!!

Can't argue about getting the same responses if it was merely a thread about the US Gov't or about the media/propaganda. You are probably correct. I guess I would have been better able to accept without this guy's words or thoughts involved.

Thanks for the conversation, viewpoints and consideration of my words, hon. You seem to be intelligent and well-rounded. Much respect.

[tastyt]

Originally posted by armada:

Yeah, I was thinking about it in relation to the Nazis as well. Great minds think alike!!!

Can't argue about getting the same responses if it was merely a thread about the US Gov't or about the media/propaganda. You are probably correct. I guess I would have been better able to accept without this guy's words or thoughts involved.

Thanks for the conversation, viewpoints and consideration of my words, hon. You seem to be intelligent and well-rounded. Much respect.

Indeed- I'm very stubborn, so when I admit to changing my mind- take it as a compliment!

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Let me take you on a journey into bliss.

[danm]

Originally posted by raver_mania:

And you're really going to believe everything the govt tells you?? There is something called propanda...

I agree 100% with TastyT's post above.

Did I ever say that I believed everything the gov't. tells us? I don't think so. I'm glad I don't know everything that the government does and it's reasons for doing it. I AM damn glad to live in the US, the most powerful country in the world. Are you?

[tastyt]

Originally posted by danm:

Did I ever say that I believed everything the gov't. tells us? I don't think so. I'm glad I don't know everything that the government does and it's reasons for doing it. I AM damn glad to live in the US, the most powerful country in the world. Are you?

USA! USA! USA!

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Let me take you on a journey into bliss.

[stacychase]

Yes, I am very proud to live in the USA. If you ever spend one minute in a 3rd World Country, I think it changes your perspective on life in the USA a lot.

Gret perspectives and points of view. Even though I do not 100% agree with all of them, it is wonderful to be allowed to openly have these conversations without fear of harsh retaliation.

Steph

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Life can only be understood backward, but it must be lived forward.