frenchbread

how big a joke are you?... the building of that pipeline has NOTHING to do with helping the afghani people... don't try to pass this off as another "way" to help the afghani people... the construction of this pipeline started way before we went there... and we went there when its construction finally hit a dead end (i.e. taliban refusing to further negociate its construction)... don't try to pass this off as something that's there to help the afghani people... this pipeline is being built by american oil companies...not afghanistan... american oil companies are going to profit from it not afghanistan... please... stop your patriotic bs... this has nothing to do with me... i'm ashamed that our nation has a large majority that cannot think for themselves, or rather that are too lazy to think for themselves and that, as a result, do like you and eat up whatever the big tv is serving up... if you think my characterization is bad, then tell me how YOU would characterize the majority of the u.s. people... that majority that cannot place its OWN country, let alone the country it is invading, on a world map... that majority that just needs to hear insinuations that hussein was behind the wtc attacks enough times to believe it...(not even 2 years after the attacks happened)... you tell me how YOU characterize that... don't tell me that the people take the facts and make their own decisions... the only decision they make is which channel to listen to... (and when i say majority, that doesn't mean 300 Mil people...the majority is anywhere from 51% and up...) btw, as u.s. citizen, you should be outraged...not because i pointed out what i did, but because of what i pointed out...the fact our people are so lazy, that they cannot even be bothered to know where the country we bomb for 48 straight hours is located...(let alone where our country is located with respect to the rest of the world) that is an outrage... how old are you man?... what a feakin' child... are you trying to say that france is responsible for the damages caused the 12 years of sanctions pushed by the u.s.... sanctions that were supposed to be shorter but that were extended by push of u.s. secretary of state albright?... please...

60% controlled by opec?... you need to go check again... 2000: opec countries oil prod: 31.4 Mil barrels/day (40%) non-opec countries oil prod: 46.0 Mil barrels/day (60%) OPEC VS. NON-OPEC: THE BASICS Non-OPEC countries produced 62% of the world's oil in 2001. Since 1970, non-OPEC production as a share of world production reached a high of 71% in 1985 and a low of 48% in 1973, with a 61% average. numbers from: Energy Information Administration (EIA)

far out conspiracy... tell me the pipeline is not there... tell me that unocal didn't negociate with the taliban to construct that pipeline before the wtc... tell me that the vp of unocal didn't testify before the house that the pipeline wouldn't be constructed until a friendly gov't was put in place in afghanistan... tell me that the u.s. didn't put hamid karzai, former unocal consultant, at the head of afghanistan... i'm not believing conspiracy theories... i believe in facts... you believe in propaganda... are you talking about that majority of americans that don't know where iraq or the u.s. are on the world map?... are you talking about that majority of americans that don't know anything about the issues, only worry about their job, and jump up and down when their president (who was AWOL during vietnam) lands on a navy carrier, in what is one of the most pronounced and obvious propaganda act in recent history?... the sanctions were ENFORCED by the u.n., but make no mistake, they were proposed and pushed through by the u.s.... what about the u.s. blockade?... and albright pushing through a resolution to extend the embargoes eventhough at the time, the WHO has reported that 1.2 Million iraqis had died from the embargo...(3/4 of Mil being children)... and that last statement of yours shows your level... all liberals are the same... do you even realize how retarded that is?... how simplistic... but i wouldn't expect any less from the guy still living in lala land... keep on living the dream...and yes, all people who don't agree with the war on iraq are liberals...and yes they all think the same...about everything... damn...

my answer in short: i don't support it drilling anwr will not do anything except mess up alaska... and for all of you that are so ready to jump on my post because i'm a "liberal"... my opinion is based on facts... facts that came from gov't agencies (funny huh)... oh and let's see how messed up our economy and country are: so why keep pushing the dependence of our country on oil, when other alternatives that could free us from dependence are available?... can you say "big companies and corrupted politicians"... hemp is a great alternative...it much better for the environment...does not entail drastic changes like hydrogen and other long term solutions do... and to top it all of, it would greatly help with reforestation... but are we moving towards that?... no...instead, we're invading iraq (only the 2nd largest oil reserve in the world)... don't think hemp can work?... it does...right now... check out the hempcar... but instead of that what does our great gov't do?... well since bush's got in power, the dea has passed a ban on the use of hemp oil in the food industry... but the war on drugs is a whole other story...

excuse my language, but i can't fucking believe you... now that the gov't is coming out and telling you iraq has no wmd's you say the war is still just?... how the fuck dare you?!?!... after all this...after all you have said... we were going there...no no no...we had a right to go there because our national security was at risk because of wmd's... now they come out and tell you they'd be surprised if they found any (eventhough before they told you they were there without any doubts), and you still support this war?... on what basis?... how was our invasion of iraq justified?...legally and morally?... aaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh...you make me so mad... you will just eat up ANYTHING they serve you... damn...they tell you to jump off the bridge and you will, because that's being patriotic... next the gov't will say that we went there to help our economy and liberate the iraqi people at the same time, and you'll say that's ok right?... unbelievable... let's look at the progression of the "reason" why we went to iraq: protect the world then.. protect the u.s. then... liberate the iraqi then... protect the world economy then... protect our economy then... keep our economy on top harboring terrorists: pure b.s....hussein went against everything fundamentalist groups like al qaeda are for...bin laden hates hussein... wmd's: not found...the gov't is telling you they won't be found...scientists with no name came forward to make "testimonies"... food and medicine: wtf...who put in place the most draconian embargoes that rendered basic medical supplies unobtainable by iraq????...that's right the u.s....and now you're going to say that we had to go to war to make sure they could get basic food and medicine????...wtf...

with this last stunt, g.w.bush and his administration have now attained levels of mastery in propaganda only reached up to now by dictators such as staline, hussein, etc... i couldn't believe it when i saw bush get flown to the uss lincoln...i probably wouldn't have believe it if i hadn't seen that with my own eyes... here's an article (with bold passages for those of you who don't have time) that sums up the latest bush propaganda episode...

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ok guys... i think that your ties to the military makes it hard for you to accept simple truths... and that's fine...i'm not trying to bash on you or on the military... i think it's not fine to live in this fantasy world where everything is idealized and glorified... cintron: cintron, the soldier does not give us freedom of speech... the soldier does what the consensus of the people wants it to do... the military is an extension of the will of the people... and when you look at history, look at both side... i mean it's so evident, i don't know how you can deny that... there is a soldier fighting for one thing, and there is a soldier fighting for the opposite...now how can you say that the soldier fights for freedom?... in wwii, the u.s. soldier was fighting for freedom, and the german soldier was fighting for the nazis... the soldier fights for whatever he's ordered to fight... and that should come from the head of state that represents his people...so like i said...ultimately the soldier fights for whatever the people want to fight for...the soldier doesn't choose what he fights for... again wwii: if you had been born in the u.s. you would have been a soldier, proud of it, and fighting for freedom... if you had been born in germany you would have been a soldier, proud of it, and fighting for the nazis... eccentricmofo: don't insult me, and i won't insult you... can't you have a discussion without insulting your counterpart?... as far as me not being exposed to military...you have no idea man... again, stop going off on all these tangents... my post was very clear: the soldier doesn't pick and choose what he fights for...therefore he doesn't give freedom of speech...he gives whatever he's ordered to give... i am not disrespecting the soldiers!... i am saying that it is wrong to glorify the soldiers like you guys want to do...let's do that...let's put the soldier on a pedestal...the soldier is the best and knows better and is the most respectable...what do you get?...a military country...that always turns in a dictature...and where is the freedom of speech in that?... and again, you chose...you chose to join this army...and if tomorrow this army decides to attack a country for reasons against your beliefs then what?...you're going to quit?...nope... you'll have to fight...you may choose to join the military, but you don't choose what the military tells you to fight for... my post never talked about the respect i have for the soldiers (which i have), boot-camp (like you said i did) or anything like that... i said this: the soldier doesn't choose what he fights for...once he joins the military, he has no more choice over what he fights for... he fights for what he's ordered to fight for: sometimes that will be freedom(u.s. soldier in wwii), sometimes that will be domination(german soldier in wwii)... nycmusik: funny how you say, that it's different from vietnam time...so what you think it was wrong?... well with time, this war on iraq might just become wrong too...and then kids your age now will join the military and say "you can't compare...it's different now"... as far as the "black hawk down" reference...you can't say "military people are some of the most respectable", and then dissociate his military life from his civilian life... if you're going to judge his character, you look at everything... and my point was that there are good people and bad people in the military...you can't deny this... military people are not some "blessed" people that are "higher" and better than "regular" people... you're judging this guy as two different person...so what are you saying that he has split personality?... you can't do that(doesn't hold), that's very dangerous... a serial rapist may do an great job in a company...so what...he's still a bad person... well the soldier might do a great job when fighting, if he's a child molestor, than he's a bad person... so again... i'm not talking about boot camp, the u.s. military... i'm talking about the soldier the soldier is a regular person... the soldier can be a good person, the soldier can be a bad person... the soldier is part of a machine called the military... the soldier doesn't choose what he fights for p.s.: please don't take that as a personal attack because it's not... i'm not talking about you, the u.s. military, the french military, the japanese military...i'm talking about the soldier (i.e. in general terms)...

you couldn't be more wrong... OPEC doesn't set the world price of oil... more oil is produced outside OPEC than within OPEC... and about smuggling oil out of iraq... you better believe it... uday (hussein's son) was selling 25% of iraq's daily oil production illegally up to the eve of the war...right under everybody's nose...

cintron again... my point is that the soldier doesn't give us the freedom of speech... you're arguing that they have as much leeway as office workers... that's not what i'm telling you... i'm not arguing with you who has more leeway, or freedom in doing their job... i'm simply responding to mahs' post, which glorifies the soldier has the freedom provider... my point again: mahs is living a fantasy when he puts out that little poem by that priest... the soldier follows order...end of story...the military is not an open forum... it's a machine that has simple rules...one of the most important one is chain of command... this poem by mahs is another piece of the fantasy world he lives in (other pieces: see the biography of bush he put up a while back) and again, don't tell me about office workers...i don't care about that...i'm not talking about that... p.s.: and with the "black hawk down"...you took another completely off course tangent there too... i was not talking about how hard of a job they had to do there...or who's fault it was... i was just showing you that soldiers are not more respectable people than other people... there are bad people and good people in the military... i.e. that guy that was glorified in the film "black hawk down" is right now serving a 30-year sentence for child abuse...that's not respectable...(and they don't tell you about that either in the media)...

ok don't have much time so i'll be quick... funny how it's ok to take politicians' word for face value when they say what you want to hear... i agree with you... but i rather take the word of one that is detached from the issue at hand, than that of one that will gain from it, and has lied about it in the past (i.e. bush, powell, etc...)... funny how it seems that a lot of the pro-war people are now shifting their stance from "has nothing to do with oil", to "of course it has to do with oil, because..."... you have to see how i think that's funny... especially when i have been arguing with some of you on that for a bit now... now that you guys are doing a full 180 on your stance of the importance of oil in this war, you have new arguments...for the sake of global economy i tutti quanti... i'm sorry i don't have more time to debate that right now, but again, i find it very funny that you guys who were so adamant about the fact that the war had nothing to do with oil are now talking about the benefits for the global economy... so now the war was waged for the economical benefit of the world...(yet a different reason for the war)... a more accurate description would be for the benefit of the u.s. economy...(but we're almost there)...

i'm sorry cintron but you're being either very naive, or you're playing dumb... my point is that the soldier does not choose what he fights about... the soldier cannot discuss the orders given, and he is not to express, especially not publicly, how he feels about orders given out by superiors (can you say "court martial")... they have leeway...please... let's talk about vietnam war...early 70's... "search and destroy" missions... find and obliterate any village having "excess food", medical supplies, tunnels... and we were there to help those very villagers... well many soldiers were against that... but believe it, they had no leeway... order were to destroy...destroy they did... stereotyping?... look who's talking: "They're some of the most dignified, honorable and respectable people"... now that's stereotyping... yea let's talk about "black hawk down"... the name of one of the main characters (the one played by ewan mcgregor) had to be changed because the real life military officer is right now serving a 30-year sentence for child abuse... most respectable?...please...but they don't tell you that in the mass media when they're glorifying the "black hawk down" crew... now don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that military personal is made of bad people...i'm saying they're made of people...regular people...good and bad...certainly not better... and certainly they have to have a penchant for violence since they have to be ready to kill... again my point: mr mahs lives in a fantasy world... the soldier doesn't give us freedom of speech... the soldier doesn't choose what he fights for... now...the soldier might protect the freedom... but if he does, that's only because he's ordered to...not because he chooses too... and please don't take it as a personal attack (since you have family in the military...but you'll also have to see that you are definitely biased since most of your family is in the military)...

eeehhh!... wrong... soldiers follow orders... soldiers are not allowed to think on their own... soldiers are not allowed to take initiative... but most importantly: soldiers do not choose what they fight for these ideas of free speech, come from people that think on their own...not people that follow orders...

ok first of all it's "croissant"... second, i know that is your opinion, that is why i directed my question to you and not bush... so are you going to answer it?... third of all, is over-simplifying all you guys can do?... cintron: saying that the word of a top u.k. politician currently part of the gov't is the equivalent to the word of some out-dated u.s. sitcom "star"... (how low is that?) you: justifying war because now the world is a better place...that's so wrong man... but that kind of shit works here, because people, just want to look at the surface...no depth... sure hussein is gone...and that's a good thing...that was never the question...the question was, how to do it, and why are our leaders doing it?...for the good of the world or for their own profit... and i think it's a bit early for you to say that the world is a better place...haven't seen many iraqis dancing in the street lately... but who cares, since the u.s. public's attention span is 2 weeks, and it's already been over stressed with this month-long ordeal... nobody here is really paying attention to it anymore... on to the next media-exploited story... if you say simple shit like that, then i'm going to say, let's have a country invade us, and stop us from poluting this planet to death...the world will definitely be a better place then... the war for liberating the iraqi people is SOOOOOOOOO STALE... the war for the good of the u.s. people is SOOOOOOOOO STALE... whatever do you mean by that?... that it was a good idea for the u.s. to invade afghanistan and take over by putting a former UNOCAL consultant in charge of the country (hamid karzai) since it allowed for the construction of the pipeline that UNOCAL was depending on... pipeline that UNOCAL try to negociate the construction of with the taliban but failed when the taliban said "no!"...

... that's also what i think...and that's sad... and cintron, he's not "Roseanne Barr"... he's the head of a commission that advises blair... but like raver_mania said, you guys wouldn't believe it even if bush, cheney, powel, blair and straw came out on fox news and swore it on the bible... oh so now it's about oil?... please man... how many times have you guys changed the reason why we were going there?... u.n resoultion...wmd's...al qaeda...liberation of iraqi people... now oil...?...why denying it so hard for so long then?... and if you agree(or hope) that "it was all about oil", don't you think it's immoral and wrong to claim it's for the good of the iraqi people?...

yea... i think so too... i think clinton bribed them...... and the lefties are the ones with the improbable conspiracy theories......seriously...

true...and sad...

9/11 was allowed to attack because evidence was there, warnings were there, yet the administration left it happen, and as i'm sure you know i've already posted on that subject, but here we go again: january 2001 The Bush Administration orders the FBI to "back off" investigations of two of Osama bin Laden's relatives (Abdullah and Omar) who were living in Falls Church, VA. feb 13, 2001 UPI, while covering a trial of bin Laden's al-Qaeda follower, reports that the NSA has broken bin Laden's encryypted communications. june 2001 German intelligence warns the CIA and Israel that terrorists are "planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture." summer 2001 An iranian man phones US law enforcement to warn of an imminent attack on the WTC in the week of September 9th. German police confirm the calls. summer 2001 Russian intelligence notifies the CIA that 25 terrorists pilots have been specifically training for suicide missions. August 2001 The FBI arrests an Islamic militant linked to bin Laden in Boston. The suspect has been taking flying lessons. At the time of his arrest the man is in possession of technical information on Boeing aircraft and flight manuals. august 2001 Vladimir Putin orders Russian intelligence to warn the US government "in the strongest possible terms" od imminent attacks on airports and government buildings. august 11 US Navy Lt. Delmart "Mike" Vreeland, jailed in Toronto on US fraud charges and claiming to be with naval intelligence, writes list of possible terrorist targets, including the WTC, and seals it in an envelope which he gives to Canadian Authorities. sept. 6th~7th, 2001 4,744 put options (a speculation that the stock will go down) are purchased on united air lines stock, as opposed to only 366 call options (speculation that the stock will go up). this is 285 times above normal. many of the ual puts are purchased through deutsche banc/alex. brown, a firm managed until 1998 by a.b. "buzzy" kongrad, now the third-ranking cia official. sept. 10th, 2001 4,516 put options are puschased on american airlines, as compared to 748 call options. no other airlines show similar trading patterns. sept. 11th, 2001 employess of odigo, inc. in israel, one of the world's largest instant-messaging companides, receive threat warnings of an imminent attack on the wtc less than two hours before the first plane hits. both the cia and mossad are notified. sept. 11th, 2001 for 50 minutes, from 8:15am to 9:05am, though it's widely known within the FAA and the military that four planes have been simultaneously hijacked and taken off course, no fighters are scrambled. this violates 25 years of established procedure. and i'm telling you that follows to the letter the strategy used by hitler... thanks...i know what blitzkrieg is... and i'm telling you that shock and awe is very similar to blitzkrieg... ok... first off you need to check your facts... there were not 500 reporters embedded in the u.s. military... there were about 452 journalists covering the war total... 257 embedded and 195 independant... on top of that, you know very well that the only embedded journalists reporting to us, where u.s. journalists... nazis used embedded journalists because it guarantees control over the news being reported... how much objectivity do you really think a u.s. journalist travelling day in day out with a u.s. military unit, whose life depends on that unit, can give you?... that's the "beauty" of embedded journalism... we've already had a discussion about that too... and my point again... dixie chicks: allowed to say what they think about the gov't private citizens: just as allowed to say what they think about the dixie chicks media: should remain impartial and not voice personal opinion that "it's great to see supporters" smash d.chicks' cds...one thing to report it...another to support it...they should let people make their own mind up, as opposed to telling them what's what...but then again... what does that have to do with what i've told you?... this administration has passed exact same laws as the nazis did, and under the same pretenses as the nazis did... did you know that the president can have any american arrested, without warrants, proofs or anything else, and have them executed?...that's right...

give what up?... you wanted links with bin laden, i've given you some... these are facts... i think you've been in the igloo too long, you brain froze up (that's if you have any to start with)...

what an idiot... you distort oscar wilde's quote to make a stupid comment, and i'm the ignorant?...... i have been wrong about everything in the past 2 years?... what are you?...on crack cocaine?... i have never debated anything with you, and i just recently started posting on this board...stop talking out of your ass you imbecile... everybody brings facts to these dicscussions except you... don't tell me to bring facts...i've done nothing but give you facts... i even feel bad for the pro-war people on here who at least have some ideas and arguments, because you undermine them more than anybody else on this board... igloo you're a freakin joke... the only two functions you possess are paraphrasing (without even keeping the integrity) and posting similies... if anybody here needs to get a clue, buddy, it's you...

if you don't mind wideskies, i'll draw that parallel (||) a bit more... i agree with you for using that quote, because that's something i have also been pointing out for a while now... but here it is in short: reichstags brand: burning of the berlin parliament by hitler's party...the burning was blamed on the communists to make the people believe they were under attack... || wtc...was allowed to happen when it could have been stopped hitler: if you want your people to support you in waging a war, make them believe they are under attack... || bush "we are under attack" blitzkrieg: storm war...taking of poland in matter of days... || shock and awe embeded journalists: nazis decided to embed journalists in army units to report the war...no dissent allowed in germany, and all the media is controlled by the nazis...only dissent comes from underground sources... || embeded journalists for the u.s. media (idea proposed by the pentagon) book burnings: nazis instigate burnings of books showing any kind of liberal thinking or dissent... || media-glorified public smashings of dixie chicks' cds...denigration of any kind of dissent by labeling it "unpatriot"...boycotting of actors instigated by media suspension of constitutional rights: done by germany right after the burning of the parliament in 1933..."... [sic] suspended by the presidential decree and therefore gave the executive full power to arrest people without a warrant and hold them without formal charges being filed in a court, that is to say no writ of habeus corpus. To suspend for the time being freedom of speech, assembly, petition, and privacy of communications, and the freedom to associate with others in political organizations of any sort." || patriot act and soon coming patritot act 2 (aka dse act)

i completely agree with you, ghost... igloo can only post insults and smilies to retort to other people's posts... that's all he does... why would anybody want to listen to him is beyond me man... at least pro-war peeps like cintron, mahs, mattas, siceone bring something to the debate...

well igloo... seems like you are caught red-handed... funny that you have to distort a quote to try to say someting... funny, because as usual, you have nothing personal or original to say: i mean all you do is post articles or insults... funny and also very immoral you'll have to admit: immoral to the audience whom to you are reporting this distorted quote, and immoral to the author, because you are distorting his words yet still using his name to give you ridiculous point some semblance of "weight"... so in summation, igloo has nothing personal to say, and he'll go to extreme and immoral measures to try to put people down... keep going igloo...a fine job you're doing indeed...

ok... here are other links: bin laden: trained and funded by the cia hussein: received weapons from our country (including wmd's) taliban: repsentatives are invited to unocal's texas headquarters to negociate support of a trans-afghanistan pipeline (dec. 4th, 1997) bin laden: treated for kidney disease in the american hospital in dubai, and allegedly meets with cia official (jul. 4~14, 2001)

Personal Voices: Letter to the President By Jarmila Temelova, AlterNet This letter was sent to the White House on April 15 by Jarmila Temelova, an immigrant from what was then Communist Czechoslovakia. The text is unedited. President Bush: Twenty-one years ago I lived in communist Czechoslovakia. In order to hear news rather than propaganda and lies, I used to listen Voice of America secretly in the middle of night. I am US citizen now and very proud of it. And I am horrified to see what is happening to this great country under your leadership. In order to hear news, instead of propaganda and misinformation, I listen to independent radio every day and wonder how long will it take before I will have to do it secretly in the middle of night again? Isn't it ironic Mr. President that I am in America listening to Voice of America! In Czechoslovakia as I remember it, we had freedom of speech, but life got very complicated after the speech. So whenever I hear the slogan: "Who is not with us is against us," that has become so popular in the last few months, it gives me shivers. It was one of the most frequently used slogans of the communist government. The implied and feared continuation of this quote was "we will deal with him/her accordingly." With the adoption of so-called "Patriot Act," legislation that is supposed to protect us, and now the introduction of "Patriot Act II," I see our civil liberties beginning to slip away. Please Mr. President, prove my fears unfounded! Because this too reminds me of the past. Those minefields and high voltage fences were also there for our protection from foreign enemies. I had my doubts then, just as I do now. Mr. President, I appreciate and admire your religious commitment, but please keep it to yourself. Religion has great potential to turn a decent human being into a better one. But results from a fanaticism and the misuse of it are still too fresh in our memories. I might be wrong, but I really think Christian fanatics are just as dangerous as Islamic ones. Mr. President, please don't act like we are the last generation of humans on Earth and you have God given right to destroy her. I don't have my own children, but my primary concern and goal of me life is to leave this planet livable for yours! Sincerely Jarmila Temelova PS: Now that the war in Iraq is almost over, please make sure history will not be repeated. You see, a strange thing happens to textbooks when one country dominates another.