Why is Sharon so hesitant to let the UN examine Jenin??

[kramadas]

Really makes you wonder what Israel has to hide.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/05/02/un.jenin.probe/index.html

[chris817]

The UN investigative team, there is much that can be said. It would obviously be nice to be able to get an objective report on the occurrences in Jenin. The problem is that the particular team appointed by the UN Secretary general would be hard put to do just that. If you study the make-up of the team you would see that they come from fields where their own self-interests would pre-empt any objective observation of the facts. The UN runs the refugee camps. They are in charge of those camps. Munitions are specifically precluded from the camps,yet, bomb factories and munitions stores were found in abundance in every camp in the Palestinian Authority. Where were the UN supervisors? How was this allowed to exist?

Another illustrious member of the team is the past president of the International Red Cross, which does not recognize Israel's Magen David Adom,

the Israeli equivalent to the Red Cross). This organization, The Israeli Red Magen David,has sent humanitarian aid to Turkey during their earth quake, Kenya during the bombing and destruction of the American embassy and Ruanda during their crisis. Having represented and led the Red Cross,can we presume his objectivity?

Moreover, their mandate was to investigate only what happened in Jenin. If the context for that action, i.e. all the homicidal bombings which demanded a response by any government, is ignored how canthe situation be evaluated? No member of the fact finding team has any military experience. How can they possible be expected to appreciate, understand or make any conclusion about a military action? America, before sending any ground troops into Afganistan, in order to protect their own, bombed from the air all and any suspected targets. They even put into motion an avalanche to close the caves where they thought the terrorist were hiding rather than expose their troops to enemy fire.

Israel, on the other hand, in order to minimze Palestinian casualties did house to house searches and lost not an inconsiderable number of tropps in booby-trapped houses in an ambush. Surely no one doubts that Israel could wipe out all of Jenin in a minute if it so desired. Restraint was the word. I personally know many of the soldiers and can assure one and all that the orders were to protect oneself first,but also to use restraint against civilians.

Unfortuately every soldier cannot be controlled but those who did act against orders are being disciplined.

President Arafat's wife, who is ensconced in Paris, hopes her daughter will become a murderer. She said so. Parents of these murders are given honors and a proud of their children's actions. They are supported by Saudia Arabia and Syria. Tell me, how can Israel protect itself whendealing with this state sponsored terrorism?

I wish all Palestinians a good life and a state. They deserve it, they need it. They also deserve leaders who will get them to their goal and not hide behind children sent out to die.

[dialectics]

well put, chris817

[tribal]

there was no massacre. end of story. why isnt the UN so hesitant to send a human rights team after 20-30 israeli civilians are blown apart? fuck the UN

BBC-------------------------

Human Rights Watch report

The report says there was no massacre as the Palestinians have claimed, but it does accuse the Israeli army of committing war crimes.

Human Rights Watch has done a separate report on suicide bombings targeting Israeli civilians as well.

The UN may not be coming to investigate what happened in Jenin but the respected group human rights watch has finished its own report.

Death toll questions

Much of the controversy about Jenin has concerned the number of dead with the Palestinians claiming hundreds and the Israelis saying less than 45, and all of them fighters.

Human Rights Watch says at least 52 Palestinians died of whom 22 were civilians. Many of the civilians were killed wilfully and unlawfully the report says.

Israel opted to use infantry rather than aerial bombs

Palestinian civilians were used as human shields and the Israeli army employed indiscriminate and excessive force, the report says.

The report gives examples - it says that a 57-year-old Palestinian man Kamil Sagir was shot and then run over by Israeli tanks even though his wheelchair was flying a white flag.

Another case is that of 37-year-old Jamil Fayed, a paralysed man who was crushed in the rubble of his home.

Human shields

Human Rights Watch says the Israeli army refused to allow the family time to remove him from their home before a bulldozer destroyed it.

The Israelis have denied committing atrocities. They say that Palestinian gunmen used their own people as shields against incoming fire.

Many Israelis will tell you they could just have bombed Jenin from the air. The fact that infantry troops were risked is evidence of Israel's concern for civilians, it is argued.

Nevertheless, Human Rights Watch insists that some Israeli soldiers must face prosecution for what happened in Jenin.

[sonicinfusion]

Originally posted by tribal

there was no massacre. end of story. why isnt the UN so hesitant to send a human rights team after 20-30 israeli civilians are blown apart? fuck the UN

BBC-------------------------

Exactly FUCK THE UN .. AND FUCK KOFI ANNAN...

He doesnt have the Balls to stand against ISRAEL ...

Cause he knows his position will be fucked ...

yes there was a massacre ... the pictures show that ..

[hoticynyc]

WHO CARES, LET THEM ALL KILL EACH OTHER I WISH THEY WOULD STOP COMING HERE, OBVIOUSLY THE COUNTRY CAN'T BE THAT GREAT IF THEY ALL WANT TO COME STUDY/WORK HERE....WE HAVE TO CLOSE OUR BORDERS FAST OR 9/11 WILL HAPPEN AGAIN...ALSO STOP HELPING OTHER COUNTRIES FOR 10 YEARS, LET THEM ALL WITHER AWAY TO NOTHING (FOR EX CUBA) AND THEN BEGIN TRADES AGAIN....SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST LET THE WEAK WIPE EACH OTHER OUT AND FOCUS ON BETERING OUR COUNTRY INSTEAD OF FEEDING OTHERS, AND CREATING HOMES ON LAND THAT WAS JUST ROCKS B4 (ISRAEL N PALESTINE) LET THEM LIVE IN CAVES BY THE WAY, I DIDN'T READ YOUR POST'S, I JUST WANTED TO GIVE MY 2 CENTS, AND REALLY DON'T CARE ABOUT YOURS

[dialectics]

Originally posted by icyhotnyc

BY THE WAY, I DIDN'T READ YOUR POST'S, I JUST WANTED TO GIVE MY 2 CENTS, AND REALLY DON'T CARE ABOUT YOURS

i'm sure you were expecting to earn some respect with an intelligent and open minded statement like that. and apparently you've never checked into how many american students enroll in study abroad programs.

the u.s. is a great country and it is our responsibility as a world leader to help the world. even if we wanted to ignore the humanitarian reasons for providing aid, i believe that there are two additional reasons for wanting to help other countries and ensure their tranquility like we would ours:

1) economic reasons (duh). exports bring outside money into our economy. if other nations enjoy wealth it will reflect back into our economy as they purchase our goods and services. who needs satellite dishes if you don't have indoor plumbing? the world is full of opportunity for our capitalist bretheren to go out and milk. ensuring that emerging nations have a base with which to start their own economies will mean our people can reap the benefits.

2) military reasons. it is safe to say that a war with any nuclear power or country with an obscenely large population will cause a terrible loss of life and the potential de-throning of america as a world power. winning a war with, say China, is probable but will come at a great cost of life and spirit. its so much easier to open up trade relations so that both the u.s. and china can profit from a friendly business relationship, and too much will be at stake to risk war.

and putting those two together, a wartime economy benefits only certain industries (aerospace, defense, materials, etc) but a peace-time economy where innovation is not stifled has the potential to benefit everyone.

peaz,

rob

[chris817]

Originally posted by sonicinfusion

yes there was a massacre ... the pictures show that ..

Where are the picts?

show me something that shows a massacre?

[eak]

very well put chris, a very objective message, a rare thing on these messageboards.

[stonedcl]

The JEWS wont let UN inspecters in becuz they did worste then Hitler did to them.

The Jews run THIS country and push all properganda to our TV's and the sad part is that everyone listens to them.

The Jews own the Media.

The US gives them 3 billion a year to kill inocent Palistine people when people in THIS country are starving.

Thats 8 million dollars a day we give the jews, For what, so they can build a stonger miltary force then the US and the say FUCK off to the US when they ask for pull out in occupied territories?

Our support of Isrial was the main reason for 9/11 and will be the downfall of the USA MARK MY WORDS...

90% of the world hates the USA becouse our forign polices SUCK ASS and there is nuttin us normal people can do about it so I will shut the fuck up now...

[stonedcl]

Its also funny how when a suicide bomber kills 3 jews the make a big deal about it on EVERY station but when the jewish army marches into a town and kill 500 people no one even know about it?

And how else is palistine suppose to get there message across other then suicide bombings? They have no tanks, planes, or bombs?

The US dont give them 3 billion a year for weapons and shit?

The only way these people know how to fight is by using there body, so be it. Peolple arte finnally starting to realize how bad these palistine people have being prisoners in there own country..

They dont have 1/100 the supplies or fire power isrial got so the NEED to use there own bodies to get the message across and I dont blame them.

[kramadas]

Originally posted by chris817

The UN investigative team, there is much that can be said. It would obviously be nice to be able to get an objective report on the occurrences in Jenin. The problem is that the particular team appointed by the UN Secretary general would be hard put to do just that. If you study the make-up of the team you would see that they come from fields where their own self-interests would pre-empt any objective observation of the facts. The UN runs the refugee camps. They are in charge of those camps. Munitions are specifically precluded from the camps,yet, bomb factories and munitions stores were found in abundance in every camp in the Palestinian Authority. Where were the UN supervisors? How was this allowed to exist?

Another illustrious member of the team is the past president of the International Red Cross, which does not recognize Israel's Magen David Adom,

the Israeli equivalent to the Red Cross). This organization, The Israeli Red Magen David,has sent humanitarian aid to Turkey during their earth quake, Kenya during the bombing and destruction of the American embassy and Ruanda during their crisis. Having represented and led the Red Cross,can we presume his objectivity?

Moreover, their mandate was to investigate only what happened in Jenin. If the context for that action, i.e. all the homicidal bombings which demanded a response by any government, is ignored how canthe situation be evaluated? No member of the fact finding team has any military experience. How can they possible be expected to appreciate, understand or make any conclusion about a military action? America, before sending any ground troops into Afganistan, in order to protect their own, bombed from the air all and any suspected targets. They even put into motion an avalanche to close the caves where they thought the terrorist were hiding rather than expose their troops to enemy fire.

Israel, on the other hand, in order to minimze Palestinian casualties did house to house searches and lost not an inconsiderable number of tropps in booby-trapped houses in an ambush. Surely no one doubts that Israel could wipe out all of Jenin in a minute if it so desired. Restraint was the word. I personally know many of the soldiers and can assure one and all that the orders were to protect oneself first,but also to use restraint against civilians.

Unfortuately every soldier cannot be controlled but those who did act against orders are being disciplined.

President Arafat's wife, who is ensconced in Paris, hopes her daughter will become a murderer. She said so. Parents of these murders are given honors and a proud of their children's actions. They are supported by Saudia Arabia and Syria. Tell me, how can Israel protect itself whendealing with this state sponsored terrorism?

I wish all Palestinians a good life and a state. They deserve it, they need it. They also deserve leaders who will get them to their goal and not hide behind children sent out to die.

You have some good points Chris. However, the aim of the mission is to see if there was a "massacre" at the Jenin camp, so I don't see how the issue of whether Israel's right to retailiate was justified or not plays a role here. Israel was justified in the raids, but how would that condone the killing of innocent civilians if that was what the UN mission discovered? No matter what, if there was a "massacre", then Sharon should stand trial for war crimes...the means does not justify the end (if the end it is).

Also, didn't the UN appoint two military aides (Col. Miles Wade from Britain and Francois Xavier Thomas from France), and two Irish police aides with extensive counter terrorism experience, as part of the team?

[stonedcl]

Originally posted by raver_mania

You have some good points Chris. However, the aim of the mission is to see if there was a "massacre" at the Jenin camp, so I don't see how the issue of whether Israel's right to retailiate was justified or not plays a role here. Israel was justified in the raids, but how would that condone the killing of innocent civilians if that was what the UN mission discovered? No matter what, if there was a "massacre", then Sharon should stand trial for war crimes...the means does not justify the end (if the end it is).

Sharone will NEVER stand trial cuz Bush's dick is too far up his ASS.

The Jews can do whatever they want and the US aint gonna do shit about it cuz this contry is run by the JEWS.

[chris817]

this can explain it better than anything else

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24668-2002May2.html

A massacre is the deliberate mass murder of the defenseless. The "Jenin massacre" is more than a fiction. It is a hoax. "Palestinian Authority allegations," reported the Boston Globe (April 29), ". . . appear to be crumbling under the weight of eyewitness accounts from Palestinian fighters who participated in the battle and camp residents who remained in their homes until the final hours of the fighting. . . . All said they were allowed to surrender or evacuate."

And yet for weeks the world has been seized with the question of the "Jenin massacre." The U.N. Security Council called emergency meetings. The secretary general appointed a special investigating committee (now disbanded). The European press published the most lurid allegations. To say nothing, of course, of al-Jazeera TV.

All this for a phantom massacre. Yet this same Middle East conflict yields no shortage of real massacres:

• April 27: Adora, Palestinian gunmen enter residential quarters shooting everyone, including a 5-year-old girl shot through the head in her bed.

• April 12: Jerusalem, suicide bombing at a bus stop, 6 murdered.

• April 10: Yagor, suicide bombing on a bus, 8 murdered.

• March 31: Haifa, suicide bombing in a restaurant, 15 murdered.

• March 28: Eilon Moreh, shooting attack, 4 murdered.

• March 27: Netanya, suicide bombing at a Passover seder, 28 murdered.

These are massacres -- actual, recent massacres. Massacres for which the evidence is hard. Massacres for which the perpetrators claimed credit. Where was the Security Council? Where was the Kofi Annan commission? Where was the world?

The United Nations' excuse will be that these murders were perpetrated not by states but by groups. But this is nonsense. The Palestinian Authority is a recognized government. The links of its top leadership to these murders is precisely the kind of question that warrants investigation. Yet the very idea that the United Nations would investigate Palestinian massacres is absurd.

The fact that such an undertaking is unimaginable is what has made the past several months so deeply, despairingly troubling. The despair comes from the bewilderment of living in a world of monstrous moral inversion.

Take Jenin. What was the real story? That hand-to-hand, door-to-door combat, in an intensely built-up shantytown, among dozens of houses booby-trapped by Palestinian fighters, should have yielded somewhere between seven and 21 scattered civilian casualties is nothing less than astonishing. It testifies to the extraordinary scrupulousness of the Israeli army, which lost 23 soldiers in the battle, precisely because it did not want to cause the civilian casualties that come with aerial bombardment, as has happened everywhere from Grozny to Kabul. And yet Israel was investigated precisely for defending itself against massacres that warrant no investigation.

Palestinian apologists wave away this double standard with the magic mantra of "occupation."

More nonsense. Twenty-one months ago, Israel offered a total end to the occupation, ceding 100 percent of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank to the first Palestinian state ever. The Palestinians turned that down and took up the suicide bomb. By the Orwellian logic of today, the Palestinians are justified in perpetrating one massacre after another to end an occupation that Israel offered to remove almost two years ago.

For the "international community," as embodied by the United Nations, such inverted moral logic is the norm. This is what it must have been like living in the false consciousness of Soviet communism, where everyone had to publicly and constantly pretend to believe the official lies, all the while knowing they were lies. This is what it must have been like living in the 1930s, as the necessities of appeasement created a gradual inversion of right and wrong -- the Czechs, for example, pilloried by official opinion in Britain and France for selfishly standing in the way of peace at Munich.

Churchill's great gift to civilization was not just that he rallied good against evil but also that he pierced a suffocating fog of self-deception by speaking truth to lies. Where is the Churchill of today, the official of any government, prepared to tell the United Nations that its frantic hunt for a phantom massacre by Jews -- while ignoring massacre after massacre of Jews -- is grotesque and perverse?

[tempkid]

Here is an idea for peace

When Israelies figure out Israel isn't Israel

and the palistinians figure out Palistine isn't Palistine

and that both sides have a good reason to believe that it is there land, that both parties understand there should be two states ENUFF said. Then maybe they will be peace, but unfortunally they both have so much so called pride, it will never happen.

[barvybe]

stondcl - u'r remarks are truly ignorant. there are many ways to get your point across. the intentional murder of civilians (and suicide bombs are exactly that) is unconscionable.

why don't u try reading some of the excellent articles, like the one in the recent New York Magazine. This is not a pro-israeli article. in fact, it is critical of many isreali policies. the reason why the israeli's don't want the UN in there is that their stated purpose is to look for signs of a massacre. the facts are that 29 suicide bombers came out of that refugee camp. the UN was not going to look for evidence of bomb manufacturing, arms, etc., but only evidence that israel did something wrong. unless the aims are changed to be a unilateral investigation no mission will ever set foot there.

furthermore, reliable humanarian sources on the scene state that approximately 15 palestinian civilians and 30 militants were killed. only 5 other people are claimed as missing. therefore, what massacre do you refer to?

the US supports israel in this (note the resolutions passed by congress today which are even stronger in support of israel then bush has been) because they are fighting against terrorists. the israeli's go to great lengths to avoid killing civilians. the palestinians make a policy of attacking civilians.

when arafat refused the treaty that granted him 97% of what the palestinians had asked for, he caused this state of affairs. my opinion is that arafat doesn't want peace. it is in turmoil that he has power. there is growing evidence that he has financially supported suicide bombings. how can the world recognize him as a legitimate political leader?

furthermore, the rest of the arab world doesn't seem to care about the palestinians in general. there is no outpouring of relief aid for the masses, there is no welcoming of refugees. instead, there are rewards for killing israeli civilians.

israel is not going to dissappear. my opinion is that the arab nations need to recognize israel as a state. that will force the palestinians to negotiate with israel in good faith. israel is fully willing to grant lands to the palestinians if the stop the violence. however, if this violence continues what is likely to happen is that the israeli's will build a big ass wall with buffer zones.

in most of the media coverage, the israeli's are held to a higher stnadard of conduct. if they were to use civilians to shield their soldiers there would be a great amount of anger. however, the palestinians use civilians to hide behind and among every day. the israeli's had to go house to house, incurring their own casualties, in an effort to separate out the militants. as someone else pointed out, they could have simply flattened the whole place.

and in terms of this country being run by jews, you should note that the strongest support for israel right now is in the conservative right republicans, almost universally christian.

[bigpoppanils]

Originally posted by barvybe

and in terms of this country being run by jews, you should note that the strongest support for israel right now is in the conservative right republicans, almost universally christian.

thank you

[tepfenhardth]

deletions made

[barvybe]

its interesting that you feel that the media is so pro israeli. israel doesn't think so. neither do most american jews.

the news tends to cover israeli troup movements and how many people the army has killed complete with pictures. there is very little coverage of the bombings and snipping of israeli soldiers on the other hand.

the newsweek article that equated the palestinian girl and the isreali girl as equals is interesting too. u may recall that the palestinian suicide bomber killed this israeli civilian. the article makes them both equal victims, arguing that the palestinian girl was a victim of brainwashing, etc. which led to her death.

i'm sorry, but one of these girls killed the other, for no particular reason, and as a random act. in many ways this is similar to serial killing, where victims are chosen at random.

the bottom line continues to be that one side targets civilians and the other doesn't. regardless of your politics, that should be wrong.

personally, i want the palestinians to have their own state, but not by blowing up israeli's.

[roha3000]

Originally posted by barvybe

stondcl - u'r remarks are truly ignorant. there are many ways to get your point across. the intentional murder of civilians (and suicide bombs are exactly that) is unconscionable.

why don't u try reading some of the excellent articles, like the one in the recent New York Magazine. This is not a pro-israeli article. in fact, it is critical of many isreali policies. the reason why the israeli's don't want the UN in there is that their stated purpose is to look for signs of a massacre. the facts are that 29 suicide bombers came out of that refugee camp. the UN was not going to look for evidence of bomb manufacturing, arms, etc., but only evidence that israel did something wrong. unless the aims are changed to be a unilateral investigation no mission will ever set foot there.

furthermore, reliable humanarian sources on the scene state that approximately 15 palestinian civilians and 30 militants were killed. only 5 other people are claimed as missing. therefore, what massacre do you refer to?

the US supports israel in this (note the resolutions passed by congress today which are even stronger in support of israel then bush has been) because they are fighting against terrorists. the israeli's go to great lengths to avoid killing civilians. the palestinians make a policy of attacking civilians.

when arafat refused the treaty that granted him 97% of what the palestinians had asked for, he caused this state of affairs. my opinion is that arafat doesn't want peace. it is in turmoil that he has power. there is growing evidence that he has financially supported suicide bombings. how can the world recognize him as a legitimate political leader?

furthermore, the rest of the arab world doesn't seem to care about the palestinians in general. there is no outpouring of relief aid for the masses, there is no welcoming of refugees. instead, there are rewards for killing israeli civilians.

israel is not going to dissappear. my opinion is that the arab nations need to recognize israel as a state. that will force the palestinians to negotiate with israel in good faith. israel is fully willing to grant lands to the palestinians if the stop the violence. however, if this violence continues what is likely to happen is that the israeli's will build a big ass wall with buffer zones.

in most of the media coverage, the israeli's are held to a higher stnadard of conduct. if they were to use civilians to shield their soldiers there would be a great amount of anger. however, the palestinians use civilians to hide behind and among every day. the israeli's had to go house to house, incurring their own casualties, in an effort to separate out the militants. as someone else pointed out, they could have simply flattened the whole place.

and in terms of this country being run by jews, you should note that the strongest support for israel right now is in the conservative right republicans, almost universally christian.

Bravo Pete. Well said.

[tepfenhardth]

deletions made

[chris817]

barvybe well said

if the jews own the media here then why are the Palensteins always portraid as the victims? why b/c this is america and we like the underdog and it sells papers and gets ratings

Tepfenhardt- you say how else can they fight, well the US supports the Isreal military, why don't the rest of the oil rich arab countries support Palenstein? they can send them money for tanks, weapons? what do they do, they send the bombers families money?

and you say we should get over the suicide bomings already??? are you out of your mind?? with that why doesent America get over 9/11

[tepfenhardth]

deletions made

[tribal]

The United Nations' excuse will be that these murders were perpetrated not by states but by groups. But this is nonsense. The Palestinian Authority is a recognized government. The links of its top leadership to these murders is precisely the kind of question that warrants investigation. Yet the very idea that the United Nations would investigate Palestinian massacres is absurd.

you are absolutely correct. today it was actually admitted by Marwan Bargouti (the head of PA security service) that arafat personally supervised and gave discretion for suicide attacks thru his group - the Aksa Martyrs Brigades. Arafat personally gave an order, for a suicide bomber to infiltrate an israeli city, and blow up 26 men, women, children and the elderly, who sat down for a Passover dinner. Let me repeat that; ARAFAT PERSONALLY GAVE AN ORDER FOR SUICIDE BOMBERS.

the difference between IDF tactics and PA terrorism, is that IDF goes out of its way to make sure civilians didnt get killed, while still trying to protect the israeli civilian population. The PA specifically trains, equips and finances people, whose very job is to kill as many men, women and kids as possible. you cant build a state, a nation, a country, through terrorism. jenin was not a massacre, it was not a genocide. a country the size of New Jersey, surrounded by hostile neighbors bears every right to defend its civilians, i would expect no less of any other nation.

OH, and tepenhard, the Karine A weapons were not being used against the IDF. they were brought in to attack israeli civilian centers like Tel Aviv. they were getting new weapons because their current rockets like the Qassam rocket, does not bring enough casualties. its also very innaccurate. the Karine A was loaded with advanced rockets and missiles, designed to kill as many as possible. dont give me that shit that it was self defense. you fuckin know damn well what those weapons would be used for if arafat would get his hands on them.

[bassboy]

Originally posted by chris817

The UN investigative team, there is much that can be said. It would obviously be nice to be able to get an objective report on the occurrences in Jenin. The problem is that the particular team appointed by the UN Secretary general would be hard put to do just that. If you study the make-up of the team you would see that they come from fields where their own self-interests would pre-empt any objective observation of the facts. The UN runs the refugee camps. They are in charge of those camps. Munitions are specifically precluded from the camps,yet, bomb factories and munitions stores were found in abundance in every camp in the Palestinian Authority. Where were the UN supervisors? How was this allowed to exist?

Another illustrious member of the team is the past president of the International Red Cross, which does not recognize Israel's Magen David Adom,

the Israeli equivalent to the Red Cross). This organization, The Israeli Red Magen David,has sent humanitarian aid to Turkey during their earth quake, Kenya during the bombing and destruction of the American embassy and Ruanda during their crisis. Having represented and led the Red Cross,can we presume his objectivity?

Moreover, their mandate was to investigate only what happened in Jenin. If the context for that action, i.e. all the homicidal bombings which demanded a response by any government, is ignored how canthe situation be evaluated? No member of the fact finding team has any military experience. How can they possible be expected to appreciate, understand or make any conclusion about a military action? America, before sending any ground troops into Afganistan, in order to protect their own, bombed from the air all and any suspected targets. They even put into motion an avalanche to close the caves where they thought the terrorist were hiding rather than expose their troops to enemy fire.

Israel, on the other hand, in order to minimze Palestinian casualties did house to house searches and lost not an inconsiderable number of tropps in booby-trapped houses in an ambush. Surely no one doubts that Israel could wipe out all of Jenin in a minute if it so desired. Restraint was the word. I personally know many of the soldiers and can assure one and all that the orders were to protect oneself first,but also to use restraint against civilians.

Unfortuately every soldier cannot be controlled but those who did act against orders are being disciplined.

President Arafat's wife, who is ensconced in Paris, hopes her daughter will become a murderer. She said so. Parents of these murders are given honors and a proud of their children's actions. They are supported by Saudia Arabia and Syria. Tell me, how can Israel protect itself whendealing with this state sponsored terrorism?

I wish all Palestinians a good life and a state. They deserve it, they need it. They also deserve leaders who will get them to their goal and not hide behind children sent out to die.

My friend, this is a lucid although not objective way to put things.

Let us step back from recent events and ask how you would feel if you were a Palestinian, AND THE LAND WAS ALREADY YOURS. (so what if t was under British colonization, does that not make them deserve it even more?)

You would want to have it back, and you would be willing to fight. Imagine living like prisoners in camps, with dubious supplies of the basic necessities of life, and you look across the border into the land that was once yours, and see Israel prospering like the 51st state, with free trade agreements with both the US and the EU, an American supplied army, and you can´t go from one part of your occupied territory to the other without having to go through checkpoints? I would fight for that if I was a Palestinian.

I don´t see how the US is behind Israel. Oh yes I do, because after 9-11 any form of terrorism in the suicide fashion, not necessarily the militarily orchestrated fahsion like Israel has done, is the bottom line for US public opinion.

I wish the US media would show what it does here in Europe: Footage of what is really happening.

I work at the US Embassy in Madrid, and it is hard for me, because I am see the Palestinian and the Israeli side to this, but the bottom line is that Sharon will not allow the UN in because he is afraid of losing the moral foundation of Israel´s existence.