More and more S. Koreans want the US out

[kramadas]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30309-2003Jan8.html

Anti-U.S. Sentiment Deepens in S. Korea

Support for Isolating North Seen Lacking

By Peter S. Goodman and Joohee Cho

Washington Post Foreign Service

Thursday, January 9, 2003; Page A01

SEOUL, Jan. 8 -- Inside a Starbucks coffee shop tucked in a posh shopping district of South Korea's capital, three women in their late twenties sip cappuccino, their Prada purses and Gucci sunglasses testifying to lives of comfort in the southern half of the Korean Peninsula -- the side defended by 37,000 U.S. troops.

Yet, as their conversation turns to the nuclear confrontation playing out here, all three express sympathies for North Korea and anger toward the United States. They reject the central tenet that has bound South Korea and the United States together for a half-century -- that they need American troops here to protect them from the menacing Communist power to the north.

"If the United States left, I wouldn't mind," says Kim Young Ran, 29. "If North Korea wants nuclear weapons, I think they should have them. The U.S. and so many other countries have them. There's no way North Korea will attack us with their nuclear weapons. I don't think so. We're the same country. You don't bomb and kill your family. We share the same blood."

That refrain, heard here with increasing frequency, largely explains the gulf between South Korea and the United States as the two countries digest the possibility of North Korea arming itself with nuclear weapons. It also highlights the enormous obstacles confronting the Bush administration as it seeks to assemble a united front to force North Korea to reverse course; South Korea's support is critical to any attempt to isolate the North.

In a recent opinion poll conducted by Korea Gallup for the Chosun Ilbo, one of South Korea's three major newspapers, more than 53 percent of South Koreans surveyed said they disliked the United States, up from 15 percent in 1994. Over the same period, the percentage of those who said they liked the United States fell from nearly 64 percent to 37 percent.

Many analysts say the growing anti-Americanism here has emboldened North Korea's leader, Kim Jong Il, to ratchet up the confrontation because he is secure that the Bush administration cannot wage war against him, or even contain him, without the support of South Korea, and equally secure that such support is lacking.

"It wasn't like that back in 1993 and '94," said Lee Chung Min, a North Korea expert at Yonsei University in Seoul, referring to the last nuclear crisis here. "We thought North Korea was crazy and had no illusions about who they were building their bombs for. Now, Kim is less likely to bend, because he can count on South Korea. And that's a weird situation."

In the latest sign that North Korea is seeking to exploit this dynamic, the insular country today released a statement calling on the two Koreas to "pool their efforts and condemn and frustrate the U.S. nuclear policy for aggression," which it said was part of a larger "U.S. strategy to dominate the world." It accused the United States of "working hard to bring a holocaust of a nuclear war to the Korean nation."

[On Thursday, the Reuters news agency, citing the South Korean Unification Ministry, reported that North Korea had proposed going ahead with minister-level talks with South Korea on Jan. 21-24.]

The poll numbers revealed a striking generational divide. While only 26 percent of South Korean respondents age 50 and over expressed dislike for the United States, the rate for those in their twenties was over 75 percent.

Analysts explain this shift by noting that older South Koreans have memories of the 1950-53 Korean War and feel an uneasy proximity to the artillery and missiles lined up on the other side of the Demilitarized Zone that divides the peninsula. Those in their twenties, on the other hand, grew up in a country that felt stable and increasingly prosperous, far removed from threats of war and poverty.

"They have naive and romantic thoughts about the North," said Kim Tae Woo, a conservative arms control expert at the Korea Institute for Defense Analyses in Seoul. "They think we are one people, North and South, and we should be reunited. They simply don't see the military strength the North has created."

Young people say they are freer than previous generations to think critically about inequalities in South Korea's relations with the United States.

"Our parents only had monopolized and controlled information fed to them by the government, but we get information from all sorts of places," said Chang Hye Jin, 33, a software developer. "The Internet changed a lot. We express and discuss many issues in the chat rooms. Through that, we get a lot of different ideas."

Anti-Americanism is hardly new here. During the 1980s, radical students engaged in violent protests against the authoritarian regime of Chun Doo Hwan and lashed out at the United States for complicity in the government's repressive policies. More recently, activists have decried what they see as environmental pollution linked to the presence of U.S. troops here. But those who have watched such events unfold say there has been a palpable, fundamental shift in attitude.

"Anti-Americanism is getting intense," said Kim Sung Han, a fellow at the Institute for Foreign Affairs and National Security, a research group in Seoul associated with the Foreign Affairs Ministry. "It used to be widespread and not so deep. Now it's getting widespread and deep."

The 1980s radicals have been joined by a new crop of people in their twenties and thirties who are less anti-American than they are pro-Korean. Reared on textbooks that portray North Korea not as an enemy but as a brother, many have come to see the U.S. military presence as an impediment to reunifying the two halves of the peninsula. "I don't think the United States understands that we are one country," said Kim Young Jin, 34, a gray-suited banker.

This shift has profoundly altered relations between South Korea and the United States. Through the Cold War and the last decade, governments in Washington and Seoul danced in lockstep. But that changed under the rule of South Korean President Kim Dae Jung, whose "sunshine policy" toward the North has relied upon engagement and reconciliation, expanding trade and aid while reuniting families divided by the Demilitarized Zone.

While Bill Clinton was in power, the sunshine policy caused no discord. But when President Bush came into office and branded North Korea part of an "axis of evil," along with Iraq and Iran, it embarrassed Kim and caused a cleavage in Seoul's dealings with Washington.

Other incidents have further inflamed tensions. During a speedskating race at last year's Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City, a South Korean entrant, Kim Dong Sung, crossed the finish line first, but was disqualified. He yielded the gold medal to American Apolo Anton Ohno, and people here charged foul play.

Last June, a U.S. Army vehicle fatally crushed two South Korean teenage girls during a training exercise. When a military court subsequently acquitted two soldiers of negligent homicide, it provoked a string of protests that have continued.

In downtown Seoul, a sign went up in a restaurant declaring that Americans were not welcome. School bags began sporting "Anti-American" buttons. On major shopping streets, activists using bullhorns began proclaiming "Yankees go home."

Last month, South Koreans elected a new president, Roh Moo Hyun, who advocates continuation of the sunshine policy. During the campaign, he caused an uproar when he said South Korea should not automatically adopt the side of the United States if there is conflict with the North.

After the election, Roh met with military officials and instructed them to draw up plans that assume a reduction in U.S. forces stationed here. That has occasioned much speculation in the local press that Roh, who takes office Feb. 25, may ask the United States to reduce its troop presence -- an outcome feared by conservatives here.

"Roh and his people have no concept of security," said Kim Tae Woo, the conservative defense expert.

Today in Pyongtaek, outside a U.S. air base, several hundred South Koreans, many of them local shopkeepers, rallied to oppose calls for a withdrawal of U.S. troops.

Much has been made here about the fact that Roh speaks no English and has never visited the United States. Despite his strained ties with the United States, Kim Dae Jung lived there for years in exile in the days of repressive government. He has called on those demonstrating against the acquittal of the U.S. soldiers to halt their protests.

Those close to Roh say it would be wrong to paint him as holding anti-American views. He wrote a book about Abraham Lincoln, whom he considers his role model. While Kim Dae Jung has his prestige invested in a series of economic projects with the North -- a giant conference center, rail links, a tourism site -- Roh could use them as bargaining chips to force North Korea to pull back from the nuclear brink.

"They were not initiated by Roh, therefore he can take much freer action," said Moon Jung In, a North Korea expert at Yonsei University who has served as an informal adviser to the president-elect. "He might be much tougher on North Korea if they don't cooperate. Roh has been badly misunderstood."

[igloo]

Just imagine how much they would hate us if we didn't protect their asses for 50 years

[underwater]

we should pullout and let north korea run them the fuck over....who gives a shit about south korea anyway.....they have enough $$ to get shit done themselves....

[sassa]

i don't think the koreans wanted the US to be in their country very much, they needed help, they don't need someone to lord it over them forever..

[igloo]

Originally posted by sassa

i don't think the koreans wanted the US to be in their country very much, they needed help, they don't need someone to lord it over them forever..

Reality: If the U.S. did not remain there, the S Koreans would be starving like their northern comrades, and the country of Korea would have 2 million soldiers and a larger nuclear arsenal...

The S Koreans wanted us there, always, and needed us there.....that is reality....

In addition, is is ludricous for the S Koreans to point to the U.S. for this crisis....There is only one entity to blame for this---and that is the criminal N Korean regime......this is not U.S. propoganda, but reality....

And I hope the U.S. remain strong on this issue, and not behave weakly like Clinton did, otherwise we will be dealing with this same issue 5 years from now, only worse....this is fact

It also sends a dangerous message, and precedent, to other countries that nuclear blackmail provides legitimacy, and a way to deal with the U.S.

This N Korean situation is downright frightening

[bigmahs]

North Korea is a threat to the whole region. we are there because of the threat to our ALLIES like Japan and Taiwan.

Also strategically South Korea was a good launching pad in the event of confrontation with the former Soviet Union.

Personally I think we should give the South what they want and leave the South and when the already defiant North tramples their border and personally slaps South Korea's new president they will know that they should have listened to us.

What IGLOO SAID IS 100%correct.

[dnice35]

fuck those damn koreans, we should pull out and when the North ass rapes the south we should go back in there and take over those mother fuckers. ungreatful pieces of shit.

[vicman]

even if the US pulled out of S. Korea I dont think the North would start a war with them, China wouldnt let them. The North Koreans will basically do what the Chinese govmnt wants them to do, and starting another Korean war will only happen if the Chinese let it happen, and that would bring the US back into the picture.

[kramadas]

Originally posted by vicman

even if the US pulled out of S. Korea I dont think the North would start a war with them, China wouldnt let them. The North Koreans will basically do what the Chinese govmnt wants them to do, and starting another Korean war will only happen if the Chinese let it happen, and that would bring the US back into the picture.

That sounds about right.

BTW, who appointed the US as world policeman?

[dnice35]

Originally posted by raver_mania

That sounds about right.

BTW, who appointed the US as world policeman?

damn if you, damned if you dont..... theres always gonna be someone that will say "the US shouldnt get involed", or "why didnt the US get involved"...... .

[kramadas]

Originally posted by dnice35

damn if you, damned if you dont..... theres always gonna be someone that will say "the US shouldnt get involed", or "why didnt the US get involved"...... .

True dat! The price of being a super-power!

[dnice35]

Originally posted by raver_mania

a super-power!

we should try staying that way....

[dolcemimi]

You guys are worng !

N/ Koreas has been trying to "assrape " S. Korea since 1950 !

If U.S backs out - the South will be taken over by the damn communists !

South Korea is a weak country. THey can't fight the North by themselves ! And the U.S knows that - that's why we're there.

The S. Korean leader probably BEGS the U.S. to protect them.

Oh yea - Did you know that the leader of North Korea is only 5'2 and wears 4 inch heels ? HA HA HA HA HA !!! LOL

This fucker is like Dr. Evil form Austin Powers !! LOL

DAmn - how come it's always the short dudes with these power complexes ?

Oh yea - and the only reason why the S. Koreans say they don't like the U.S is becuz some U.S soliders ran over 2 teeange Korean girls .

[dnice35]

Originally posted by dolcemimi

You guys are worng !

N/ Koreas has been trying to "assrape " S. Korea since 1950 !

If U.S backs out - the South will be taken over by the damn communists !

South Korea is a weak country. THey can't fight the North by themselves ! And the U.S knows that - that's why we're there.

The S. Korean leader probably BEGS the U.S. to protect them.

Oh yea - Did you know that the leader of North Korea is only 5'2 and wears 4 inch heels ? HA HA HA HA HA !!! LOL

This fucker is like Dr. Evil form Austin Powers !! LOL

DAmn - how come it's always the short dudes with these power complexes ?

Oh yea - and the only reason why the S. Koreans say they don't like the U.S is becuz some U.S soliders ran over 2 teeange Korean girls .

[americanmade]

Fuck em all. The gooks need to get nuked! All of them. North and South Korea. And take the entire country over and kill any remaining gooks there after we nuke the shit out of them.

I want fried rice - American style!

[americanmade]

Nuke all them fucking slant eyed gooks. Japs Viet-namese, laotions, cambodians, chinks, ETC... ALL OF THEM!!

And nuke all countries going against us. If they are against us, they are terrorist and must be destroyed.

[dolcemimi]

Originally posted by americanmade

Nuke all them fucking slant eyed gooks. Japs Viet-namese, laotions, cambodians, chinks, ETC... ALL OF THEM!!

And nuke all countries going against us. If they are against us, they are terrorist and must be destroyed.

Don't you think they'll nuke U.S back ?

They got weapons too. How silly

I think you should check your pm

[normalnoises]

Originally posted by dolcemimi

Don't you think they'll nuke U.S back ?

They got weapons too. How silly

I'm sorry you have to deal with the likes of these creeps here, especially dnice (I read what ignorant rhetoric he puked out of his venomousy bigoted mouth in this thread).

I would hate to see a war happen there considering the results that will follow, especially when both sides (the US and N. Korea) possessing nukes. It scares me as much as it scares you considering N. Korea could go nuclear and attack us.

Not good.

And you know, these same ppl (except for dnice who could care less about others than his ignorant self) who support a war with iraq oppose a war with the N. Koreans. It shows how cowardly they really are considering they know Iraq is easy pickings as opposed to attacking N. Korea which would result in heavy losses. They also know the US lost the first Korean war and most likely will lose another campaign against them. This war on terrorism is a failure and the US will eventually lose the war.

[bigpoppanils]

i love it how the media ignored the 30,000-strong pro-US rally over the weekend

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0113/p01s02-woap.htm

[bigmahs]

Originally posted by normalnoises

I'm sorry you have to deal with the likes of these creeps here, especially dnice (I read what ignorant rhetoric he puked out of his venomousy bigoted mouth in this thread).

I would hate to see a war happen there considering the results that will follow, especially when both sides (the US and N. Korea) possessing nukes. It scares me as much as it scares you considering N. Korea could go nuclear and attack us.

Not good.

And you know, these same ppl (except for dnice who could care less about others than his ignorant self) who support a war with iraq oppose a war with the N. Koreans. It shows how cowardly they really are considering they know Iraq is easy pickings as opposed to attacking N. Korea which would result in heavy losses. They also know the US lost the first Korean war and most likely will lose another campaign against them. This war on terrorism is a failure and the US will eventually lose the war.

Okay I had it!!!

You can't see 2 feet in front of you and your political views are bent pal. When the campaign in Afghanistan started the media was questioning the administration about Iraq. The Bush administaration would not answer or comment on their policy about the Iraqi regime until it was time. The Korean situation is diffrent then the Iraqi situation that's why it being delt with diffrently.

A diplomatic solution was attempted with IRAQ but they are still defiant thats why we MIGHT go to war. You bleeding heart liberals don't see the milatary leverage the administration is using with the build up and threat of WAR. The progress made on the war on Terror is outstanding. Authorities all over the world are rounding up individuals and thwarting attacks every other week is this not PROGRESS. The inspectors are on the ground inspecting after being thrown out in1998 is this not PROGRESS???? It's your negative Anti AMERICAN sentiment that is blinding you of seeing this!!!!!

Rumsie (Rumsfeld to you) said we can handle both of these conflicts and I beleive him. So to say the U.S of A is afraid is completely false.

[bigpoppanils]

Originally posted by normalnoises

I would hate to see a war happen there considering the results that will follow, especially when both sides (the US and N. Korea) possessing nukes. It scares me as much as it scares you considering N. Korea could go nuclear and attack us.

Not good.

And you know, these same ppl (except for dnice who could care less about others than his ignorant self) who support a war with iraq oppose a war with the N. Koreans. It shows how cowardly they really are considering they know Iraq is easy pickings as opposed to attacking N. Korea which would result in heavy losses. They also know the US lost the first Korean war and most likely will lose another campaign against them. This war on terrorism is a failure and the US will eventually lose the war.

supporting a war you know is winnable over a war that isnt is not cowardly...its intelligent...

[bigpoppanils]

on a side note...i dont approve of a war with either nation...however if i had to choose one it would be Iraq...a battle with North Korea would be very foolish on our part....casualites will be massive on both sides, as well in neighboring countires