Our policy towards Israel is our greatest threat

[bassboy]

WAKE UP NYC!

Everyone here is so concerned with how to bolster our national security, well stopping the shit that Israel gets away with would be the most effective step yet in our war on terror.

9-11 would not have happened if it were not for our Israeli policy.

The costs of our support of Israel far outweigh any benefits we gain.

A bus bombing that kills 15 Israelis gets more media coverage than the 70 Palestinians that have been killed in the past month, including a pregnant woman and many children.

But the U.S. gives Israel enromous military and financial aid and justifies its responses. Would you not hate us too if you were Arab?

I work at the State Dept in the Bureau of Middle Eastern Affairs, and the more that I hear about what really goes on there, the more I become disgusted. Disgusted.

But I can't say it out loud, I can't say it at my job or in the street because I will be called anti-semetic.

When our tax dollars pay for the military development and equipment used against defenseless people that LIVED THERE FIRST.

If the story were told differently, and the Israelis were described as "Blue People" and the Palestinians as "green people" then the immorality of what has occurred on this land is all that shines through and not racial sensitivity.

But no, I can't say it at my job; I couldn't say it in classes I took in college. Because I will labled a racist. I have to vent under an alias on a messageboard.......

Has the media brainwashed everyone or does anyone agree with me?

Remember this: Our Israeli policy jeapordizes your personal security.

[cintron]

haha. Well, yeah people will prolly call you a racist. be prepared for that.

I personally like Israel, but I do feel for everyone in that region.

when Israel got their land "delivered" to them about 50 years ago, sure it wasn't anyone's land to give except for the arabs.

That's unfortunate. However it's not a particularly BIG piece of real estate, y'know? I mean, you can fly over the entire country in less than 10 minutes.

What's unfortunate is that the Jews and the Arabs are so hardheaded about sharing and living together, that they'd rather kill each other than chill out and deal with the situation. Always someone has to have the upper hand and when you add that desire with the amount of intolerance in that region, you get bloodshed.

I personally can't fault Israel for attacking Palestinians. Yell at me for saying that but that's how I feel. Israel has had it's share of wars in the last 50 years, all precipitated by other arab nations surrounding it, trying to destroy and eliminate its presence, but it's held firm. Under NO circumstances has Israel struck first unless it's in order to stop an attack on themselves. Hell, those people just want to live their lives, just as the palestinians, the Jordanians and the Syrians do. Unfortunately the simple fact that Israel defended itself with force and killed a lot of arabs to do it, along with destroying a lot of military hardware and humiliating other arab countries, is enough to piss off a lot of people.

That, combined with the 1967 takeover of the Gaza Strip is what gets under a lot of people's skin these days...

but hey, in war when you lose, you lose territory. Israel wouldn't have had the gaza strip if they hadn't been attacked way back when, defended themselves and then took over the land.

Unfortunately not a lot of people see things that way, so today you have suicide bombers and such from the palestinian front trying desperately to coerce Israel to withdraw. Violence and threats of more violence will not "make" Israel do anything, and the last 50 years are an indicator of that. they'd rather fight and lose than be forced into doing something. It's about time palestininans realized that stubbornness and pushed more on the diplomatic front. It would take more time to negotiate, but then again, there's no bloodshed in that process. Unfortunately people want Israel out of that land "now", so they attack.

Every bomb that goes off, or Israeli citizen killed, causes Israel to tighten it's grip on Gaza. The Palestians don't grasp that concept and they're fighting a stalemate.

our role in this is to support the Israelis. I do.

I also support the Palestinian's right to a state and their own territory, but they aren't going to get shit so long as israelis keep getting killed by palestinian militants.

whatever. nobody in that section of the world understands anything except how to talk with a gun.

[ivehadit]

The only difference between Israel and Palestine is that Israel has better PR (US).

Period.

I H I

[momadance]

yea, we should withdraw our support of the ONLY democracy in the middle east because its neighbors dont aggree with us.

let me guess, your that kid that does what he thinks everyone else will like?

[BKDJ]

You know why the Pali's keep bombing and fighting to live in israel? because NO OTHER ARAB NATION WANTS THEM!

There are many arab nations in the world, the middle east and asia are dominated by muslims... so no one can give the Pali's their own land?? they only want israel, the ONLY Jewish nation in the world? think about that.

Makes you wonder why NO OTHER ARAB nation wants to give Pali's their own land.... hmmmm

[bassboy]

Originally posted by momadance

yea, we should withdraw our support of the ONLY democracy in the middle east because its neighbors dont aggree with us.

let me guess, your that kid that does what he thinks everyone else will like?

I guess you would consider 9/11 a means of expressing that they "don't agree with us?"

[Crackorn]

The Palestinians should be kissing the Israelis asses for allowing them to stay there. When else in history has this happened? Also, as I've said in another thread, if the Palestinians had the technology the Israelis have, they would have killed every single one of them. And if the Israelis tried to flee this hypothetical situation, the Palestinians would run after them and still kill them.

[bassboy]

Originally posted by BKDJ

You know why the Pali's keep bombing and fighting to live in israel? because NO OTHER ARAB NATION WANTS THEM!

There are many arab nations in the world, the middle east and asia are dominated by muslims... so no one can give the Pali's their own land?? they only want israel, the ONLY Jewish nation in the world? think about that.

Makes you wonder why NO OTHER ARAB nation wants to give Pali's their own land.... hmmmm

I respect this point very much. If the other Arab countries had sincere concerns for the Palestinians then they would be investing $ to try to raise their standard of living. Agreed.

There are 3.9 million Palestinian refugees that once lived where Israel is now, and are spread out across Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and the occuppied territories.

And maybe all these Arab countries want the Palestinians to be in a state of desperation so that they may fight for them. Agreed.

My point of view has nothing to do with religion. I am a supporter of Jewish prosperity, but not at the cost our position in the internatinal community as a moral superpower.

None of this changes the fact that our support of Israel is a tremendous liability to our national security.

[jesseh49]

Bassboy the reason you have to vent under an alias on a messageboard is because your views only show the reaction of the Israelis not what caused this reaction in the first place Let's not forget there was relative peace in the nation up untill 2 years ago after the Palestinian Uprising. Israel was willing to give a considerable amount of land back to the Palestinians, land that they rightfully won in a war. However Arafat was not willing to bargain he wanted all or nothing. As to your remark about women and children being killed your right it is a shame. Parents in Palestine are to blame for that. They allow little kids to carry weapons and throw stones at Israeli Tanks and soldiers. Throwing stones at armed soldiers has got to be one of the dumbest ideas in history. Those kids should not be out in the street they should be in classrooms getting an education. And not some education based on hatred that many of them recieve. If Israel didn't respect the US it probably would have done much more to Palestine already. Don't you think the people of Palestine would be much happier to live in a democracy rather than live under a crazy dicatator? Do you know how much money that is donated to Palestine from other countries that never makes it to the people because Arafat is a crook. Do you want to try over 1 Billion dollars. He doesn't care about his people all he cares about is how fat his wallet is. The time has come for a change, and that change needs to be a leader who cares about his people and there well being.

[jesseh49]

Originally posted by Crackorn

The Palestinians should be kissing the Israelis asses for allowing them to stay there. When else in history has this happened? Also, as I've said in another thread, if the Palestinians had the technology the Israelis have, they would have killed every single one of them. And if the Israelis tried to flee this hypothetical situation, the Palestinians would run after them and still kill them.

[bassboy]

Originally posted by jesseh49

Jesseh they have the power to rout the Palestinian areas and incorporate them into the greater Israel, which may indeed happen during the pending in Iraq.

But they are slowly and surely administering this policy of land acquisition, only in politically tenable increments through settlements instead of an all out expulsion of the Palestinians.

There is no doubt in my mind that the current Israeli administration would guiltlessly take the occupied territories but does not because that is perhaps the one action that would erode American support for their regime.

So it's not a question of whether they don't do it because of their moral proclivity, but rather because it is just can't be done.

[luiskain]

Bravo Bassboy...someone finally had the guts to state the obvious...and at the risk of being labeled an anti-semite! You brave message board hero, you!

Like Iraq, Israel violates many UN mandates, the main one stating that a conquering nation shall not alter the landscape of its conquered lands.

Deprive a people of its pride, humanity, indentity, hopes and dreams; add to that a policy that isolates your people, friends, and families into three separated population islands with demeaning checkpoints; compound that with an elitist and self rightious oppressor with the backing of the world's biggest super-power and you have a bunch of nothign to lose martha-fokers who will strap some TNT on their backs.

What frustrates the hell out of me is that Israel is FOREVER trying to latch itself onto the US. I'm sure many have seen the ADS brought about by the US Jewish council that is trying to get the american ppl to support israel by drawing similarities between the two countries. I think that's absolute bullshit.

Israel did it again when the israeli Ilan Ramon died in the columbia trajedy. Many israeli polititians tried to use that as a podium for US-ISRAEL solidarity.

GIve me a break, The only reason we need an ally in the middle east IS BECAUSE ISRAEL IS OUR ALLY...and they need to start mending their foreign affairs before we get smacked with another 911

[luiskain]

allow me to also add that there are MANY MANY israelis and american jews who do not agree with the israeli governments actions. Just as there are soy stuffed smelly white hippies with dreads here, there are also jews who protest israel's opression.

[gqraver]

Bassboy, you work for the State Dept in the Bureau of Middle Eastern Affairs, but have any of you even been to Israel or the troubled region?

I have. And first, there are plenty of Muslims and Israeli Arabs that live peacefully in Israel and have no problem.

The whole conflict goes back to a small area in Old City Jerusalem, where the old Jewish Temple was and where Mohammed landed . By the way, this area under dispute is actually under Palestinian control, not Israeli. You don't see Israelies suicide bombing themselves in this area or sending military troops in, that's because they respect the holy area.

BKDJ brings up a good point, almost the entire middle east is Arab and Israelies only consume a country the size of New Jersey. Why are the other Arab nations so unwilling to help Palestinians out themselves?

Go back through the history, Israel is not usually the instigator trying to get more land and lust for power and glory. Israel has many times in peace negotiations willing to give up land for peace and its always rejected.

Palenstinians did not live there first, and they even concede that fact. Go back thousands of years it was neither the Israelies nor Palenstinians.

By the way, even if they did, who lived first in the US? So are you saying that Americans, and even immigrants shouldn't be here as well because we didn't live here first? Great logic...

I rarely get emotional on these boards and take everything pretty lighly, but your last statement is offensive and says it all:

"Remember this: Our Israeli policy jeapordizes your personal security."

So that mean as long as we are allies with Israel, that gives terrorists the right to do what they want? I worked at the World Trade Center, I bet you didn't, so you can go fuck yourself!

[bassboy]

Originally posted by luiskain

allow me to also add that there are MANY MANY israelis and american jews who do not agree with the israeli governments actions. Just as there are soy stuffed smelly white hippies with dreads here, there are also jews who protest israel's opression.

No question, I just wish these dissidents had an equal voice.

[bassboy]

Originally posted by gqraver

Bassboy, you work for the State Dept in the Bureau of Middle Eastern Affairs, but have any of you even been to Israel or the troubled region?

I have. And first, there are plenty of Muslims and Israeli Arabs that live peacefully in Israel and have no problem.

The whole conflict goes back to a small area in Old City Jerusalem, where the old Jewish Temple was and where Mohammed landed . By the way, this area under dispute is actually under Palestinian control, not Israeli. You don't see Israelies suicide bombing themselves in this area or sending military troops in, that's because they respect the holy area.

BKDJ brings up a good point, almost the entire middle east is Arab and Israelies only consume a country the size of New Jersey. Why are the other Arab nations so unwilling to help Palestinians out themselves?

Go back through the history, Israel is not usually the instigator trying to get more land and lust for power and glory. Israel has many times in peace negotiations willing to give up land for peace and its always rejected.

Palenstinians did not live there first, and they even concede that fact. Go back thousands of years it was neither the Israelies nor Palenstinians.

By the way, even if they did, who lived first in the US? So are you saying that Americans, and even immigrants shouldn't be here as well because we didn't live here first? Great logic...

I rarely get emotional on these boards and take everything pretty lighly, but your last statement is offensive and says it all:

"Remember this: Our Israeli policy jeapordizes your personal security."

So that mean as long as we are allies with Israel, that gives terrorists the right to do what they want? I worked at the World Trade Center, I bet you didn't, so you can go fuck yourself!

Of course I support immigration. My family are immigrants and I love the US for giving them the opportunity for a better life.

But the immigrants that come to this country live in this country as Americans and do not take an area for themselves and make it a separate country.

I have indeed been to the Middle East BTW, and I was astounded by the power and elegance of its culture. But what struck me most about the Arab culture was its temperance, not fanatacism.

But the whole point of an alliance is mutual benefit, of which there is none from our alliance with Israel.

If you worked in the WTC then you, more than anyone should be dubious of the costs that our alliance with Israel brings with it.

Working in the WTC are you seriously going to tell me that this alliance didn't jeapordize your personal security?

Come on my friend.

[kind3]

I stop and wonder sometimes and think of the relentless violence that is happening in the middle east involving the palestinians and the israelis and how sad and mad it makes me feel because its become quite clear to me that no one is going to win this conflict and yet they continue to fight each other, they are caught in a vicous cycle of violence and its a damn stalemate.

What these two factions must realize is that they are both equal they both cry,bleed and die the same. It does not matter if you are a jew,arab,american,canadian,mexican,jamacian,dominican,puerto-

rican,german,french,brazilian,russian,chinese,italian,irish,korean,

australian,african,etc,etc,etc, because we are all human beings we are all in this together.

perhaps when enough people have died they might come to this painful realization.

in more technical terms, what the diplomats on both sides of the conflict have to do is sit down on the negotaiting table, look at each other in the eye and say ..............

" CANT WE JUST FORGET ABOUT IT"

[gqraver]

Originally posted by bassboy

Of course I support immigration. My family are immigrants and I love the US for giving them the opportunity for a better life.

But the immigrants that come to this country live in this country as Americans and do not take an area for themselves and make it a separate country.

I have indeed been to the Middle East BTW, and I was astounded by the power and elegance of its culture. But what struck me most about the Arab culture was its temperance, not fanatacism.

But the whole point of an alliance is mutual benefit, of which there is none from our alliance with Israel.

If you worked in the WTC then you, more than anyone should be dubious of the costs that our alliance with Israel brings with it.

Working in the WTC are you seriously going to tell me that this alliance didn't jeapordize your personal security?

Come on my friend.

Do you know the reason behind why Zionist movement and why Israel was formed? It was because of the Holocaust, because Jews living in countries that they thought would protect them didn't. Israel was formed as a place where Jews could know they would be safe from genocide. Trust me I'm not an extremist Zionist Jew. I actually have more close Muslim friends than Jewish friends. Muslims and Jew can get along, in fact their cultures are so similiar its hard to even tell the difference sometimes.

I don't believe all Arabs are Fanatics, quite the opposite, I believe that it is extremist groups like Hamas that go nutz and give all Arabs a bad name, along with extremist leaders

I don't agree that expulsing Arafat will solve anything, for the most part I think he is a figurehead who is damned either way, either by the Israelies or by the terrorist groups that would surely kill him in a second if he sides with the Israel.

Your last statement however is just plain stupid:

"Working in the WTC are you seriously going to tell me that this alliance didn't jeapordize your personal security? "

By leaving my house every day I put my life in jeopardy, I could be killed by a car, person, etc. Doesn't mean I still don't leave my house. Just because the US and Israel are allies doesn't give Al Queda the right to fucking blow up and kill innocent people. And you're inferring the entire reason behind the WTC was because of the alliance. Do you have some secret proof of this? Please do share...

US is not the altruistic country everyone thinks it is, there must be a reason beneficial to the US why they are allied with Israel...go ask your boss, I'm sure they know.

[SFTunnel76]

Bassboy It was Israel who bombed Iraq's nuclear facility in 1981. If they didn't bomb it..... Iraq would have had 9 nukes by the Gulf War. Bassboy this is not the first time you've written your Arab propaganda on here. Here's a great post I saw on Aol Mideast message board.

At the end of World War II, with the revelation of the Nazis death camps, American and European politicians' excuse for inaction was "They didn't know."

The excuse of most Germans was, "They didn't know."

Well, this time the world knows that the Arabs are deliberately murdering Israeli women, children and non-combatants. This is not "collateral" attacks. This is the deliberate targeting of civilians.

And unlike the Germans, the Arabs know, and cheer and dance in the streets and hand out candy. The Nazis tried to hide their acts; they had guilty consciences. The Arabs celebrate murder.

In a poll last week, 75 percent of Palestinians support homicide bombings against Israeli civilians.

The Palestinians think they can destroy Israel, via an indiscriminate campaign of mass murder against innocent Israeli civilians.

Here is the difference between Israel and the Palestinians.

Israelis don't call for murdering children and women, the Arabs do.

Israelis don't strap bombs to themselves, to murder women and defenseless civilians. The Arabs do.

Israel dont tell its people, that if you kill Arabs, you will go to heaven and be with 72 virgins. The Arabs do.

Only the Pal Arabs consider a violent uprising that solely involves killing children in a mall, bus or disco and then celebrate afterwards.

The way Arabs think. The way to get honor and respect, is when you blow yourself up along with some innocent Jewish mothers and babies, your picture will be plastered on posters throughout your hometown. Your family will acquire a revered place in society and will also receive $25,000 in American currency from Saddam Hussein. You meanwhile, will get to fulfill all of your wildest and repressed sexual fantasies with 72 virgins in heaven.

Your concern should be, why dont the Palestinians care there own children.

Seeing the reaction of the Palestinian families after their son/daughter, becomes a suicide bomber and murders Israeli civilians. I wonder, when these children are born, or if the parents are looking into some maternity ward in a West Bank hospital, what are they thinking.

Oh look at all the beautiful little bombs!" "Is that one yours? What a cute little bomb, she has your eyes,"

"I'll bet you'll be able to wrap a lot of explosives around him when he's older"

The shocking pic of the 2 month old Palestinian baby dressed as a suicide bomber, has shown the sadism the Arabs teach there children.

Arafat has raised an entire generation to believe that the highest aspiration in life is to kill Jews. The Palestinians are engaged in an unremitting campaign of targetted murder of women and children. When the Palestinians massacre Israeli school children on buses, and babies in baby carriages, they celebrate. They have raised an entire generation to believe that the the highest cultural and religious value is the massacre of Jews. Through the Arabs hate, an entire generation has lost the capacity for humanity.

Name the last time Israelis intentionally killed Palestinian children, and then rejoiced over or justified it in the name of religion?

The facts are that two years ago Israel offered the Palestinians a sovereign state in the West Bank and Gaza, with Jerusalem as its capital. Barak offered the Palestinians a state, something no Arab country ever did. Barak did this, even though the Palestinians never controlled this land. The response has been the continued murder of Israeli civilians. As a Palestinian organization confirmed in a poll reported last week by the AP, a majority of Palestians view the objective of their fight not to control the West Bank and Gaza, but destruction of Israel. This is what the Palestinians want.

Arafat's speech in Sweden in 1996.

Arafat’s speech in front of 40 Arab diplomats in the Grand Hotel in Stockholm, Sweden, on January 30, 1996. Was called "The Impending Collapse of Israel".

"We will take over everything including all of Jerusalem," he declared repeatedly. Arafat's plan has two main components aimed to cause the Jews to abandon Israel. "Within five years we will have six to seven million Arabs living on the West Bank and in Jerusalem. Arafat explained that this will be the beginning of a pressure campaign resulting within a few years in Israel's ultimate destruction. "You understand that we plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion; Jews will not want to live among us Arabs!"

On the same day in 1993 on which Yasser Arafat signed the Declaration of

Principles on the White House lawn, he spoke the following words on Jordan TV:

"Since we cannot defeat Israel in war we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish a sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel."

Syrian Defence Minister Mustafa Tlass, In May 2001 stated on Lebanon television, that if every Arab kills one Jew, there will be no Jews left at all

Hamas terrorist chief Sheikh Ahmed Yassin explains that Palestinian terrorism will in the end destroy Israel and that the Islamic state of Palestine will be built on the ruins of Israel in 2027.

Who wants genocide, I'll let you judge. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-120601holy.story

Sheikh Muhammed Siyam, a Hamas military leader said this.

"I've been told to restrict or restrain what I say. I hope no one is recording me or taking any pictures, as none are allowed, because I'm going to speak the truth to you," Siyam reportedly said at the conference. "It's simple. Finish off the Israelis. Kill them all! Exterminate them! No peace ever! Do not bother to talk politics."

The late Faisal Husseini, Arafat's Jerusalem representative, a man who was cultured, sophisticated and considered the most moderate of all the Palestinians, shortly before his death on May 31, 2001, expressed his true feelings in an interview with the popular Egyptian newspaper el Arav.

Husseini said: "We must distinguish the strategies and long-term goals from the political-phased goals which we are compelled to accept due to international pressures." But the "ultimate goal is the liberation of all of historical Palestine."

Explicitly he said: "Oslo has to be viewed as a Trojan Horse."

He even added and clarified that it is the obligation of all the Palestinian forces and factions to see the Oslo Accords as "temporary" steps. Husseini went on to say, Israel wont exist in 20 years.

Sari Nusseibeh is another supposed Palestinian moderate.

In an interview on Al-Jazeera television on July 14, translated by Memri. Nusseibeh praised everyone involved in jihad against Israel. Explaining that he did not want to pass moral judgment on the murderers when he signed a petition a month earlier calling for an end to suicide bombers, Nusseibeh said that terrorism presents no moral dilemma, it is only a question of whether or not "political benefit" accrues from killing Israeli civilians.

http://www.shopnetdaily.com/store/item.asp?ITEM_ID=377

French reporters came out with a video called The "Israel and the War of Images" is a French-produced video documentary that demonstrates, through exclusive footage of Palestinian leaders themselves -- including Yasser Arafat -- that their goal remains the eradication of the Jewish state.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28777

TROUBLE IN THE HOLY LAND

Palestinians consider Oslo 'Trojan horse'

Leaders consistently speak of process as means to destroy Israel

August 29, 2002. WorldNetDaily.com

Claims by a top Israeli official that the Palestinian Authority plans to destroy Israel in stages through the Oslo Accords are supported by numerous statements in Arabic by Palestinian leaders, according to a regional press monitor.

Israeli Defense Forces Chief of Staff Moshe Ya'alon's assessment in an interview published this week in the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz has caused a political stir. But Palestinian leaders such as Faisal Husseini, PA representative for Jerusalem affairs, have explicitly stated that the Oslo process, which began in 1993, is a Trojan horse designed to wipe Israel off the map.

"Had the U.S. and Israel realized, before Oslo, that all that was left of the Palestinian National movement and the Pan-Arab movement was a wooden horse called Arafat or the PLO, they would never have opened their fortified gates and let it inside their walls," Husseini said in an interview with the Egyptian publication Al-Arabi', June 24, 2001.

Husseini said that the Intifada "could have been much better, broader, and more significant had we made it clearer to ourselves that the Oslo agreement, or any other agreement, is just a temporary procedure, or just a step towards something bigger. . . ."

"We distinguish the strategic, long-term goals from the political-phased goals, which we are compelled to temporarily accept due to international pressure," Husseini said.

"[Palestine], according to the higher strategy, [is] 'from the river to the sea,'" he said referring to a common description of Israel. 'Palestine in its entirety is an Arab land, the land of the Arab nation."

In the Ha'aretz interview, Ya'alon was asked to clarify whether he believed the goal of Arafat is to liquidate Israel by stages.

"Of course," the Israel defense chief responded. "Not to reach an agreement and not to arrive at the end of their claims, in order to preserve the conflict and to let time run its course according to the phased theory."

United worldview

Palestinian Media Watch says its research demonstrates a clear and united worldview within the Palestinian leadership that defines Israel as a colony that stole the land of "Palestine" and thus has no right to exist.

In speeches, sermons, educational programs and school textbooks published by the PA, the Oslo process is called a "stage," a temporary agreement that is necessary "because of the current balance of power" in which Israel has a huge military advantage.

The "permanent status agreement" with Israel is viewed as "Hudna," an Islamic term meaning cease-fire.

In an interview on Palestinian television, Sept. 1, 2000, Israeli Arab Knesset Member Abd-Al Malek Dahamshe responded to a telephone call from a viewer who said: "Our problem with Israel is not a border problem, but one of existence."

Dahamshe responded: "We exaggerate when we say 'peace' . . . what we are [really] speaking about is 'Hudna.'"

In an interview with the official PA daily Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, April 14, 2000, Abdullah Al-Hourani, chairman of the Palestinian National Council Political Committee, responded to the question, "How do you read the future of the peace process?"

Al-Hourani said: "Whether they return to negotiations or not, and whether they fulfill the agreements or not, the political plan is a temporary agreement, and the conflict remains eternal, will not be locked, and the agreements being talked about are regarding the current balance of power. As to the struggle, it will continue. It may pause at times, but in the final analysis, Palestine is ours from the [Mediterranean] Sea to the [Jordan] River."

Oslo is just the first step in the destruction of Israel, Abd El Aziz Shahian, Palestinian Authority Minister of Supplies, said in an interview May 20, 2000, with Al Ayyam, an Arabic daily in the Palestinian territories.

"The Palestinian people accepted the Oslo agreements as a first step and not as a permanent settlement, based on the premise that the war and struggle in the land is more efficient than a struggle from a distant land," he said, referring to the Palestinian Liberation Organization's base in Tunisia prior to the Oslo process.

The Palestinian minister said his "people will continue the revolution until they achieve the goals of the '65 revolution," referring to the founding of the PLO and publication of the Palestinian charter that calls for the destruction of Israel through an armed struggle.

Salim Alo'adia Abu Salam, supervisor of political affairs for the PA, told Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Jan. 20, 2000, that "when we picked up the gun in '65 and the modern Palestinian revolution began, it had a goal. This goal has not changed and it is the liberation of Palestine."

Palestinian state not end of the road

Yasser Arafat's deputy, Othman Abu Arbiah, has stated that the establishment of a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital is a means toward eliminating Israel.

"At this stage we'll prevail in our struggle [toward] the goals of the stages [plan]," he said in an interview with Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Nov. 25, 1999. "The goal of this stage is the establishment of the independent Palestinian state, with its capital in Jerusalem. When we achieve this, it will be a positive [step] and it will advance us to the next stage via other ways and means."

Abu Arbiah said "every Palestinian must know clearly and unequivocally that the independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital is not the end of the road. The [rise of] the Palestinian state is a stage after which there will be another stage and that is the democratic state in all of Palestine [in place of Israel]."

Abu Arbiah is Arafat's aide for political guidance and national affairs and the director-general for national affairs, a senior position in the Palestinian national educational structure.

Imad Alfalugi, the PA minister of communication, told Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Nov. 18, 1999, "Our people have hope for the future, that the occupation state [israel] ceases to exist, and that it makes no difference [how great] its power and arrogance. . . .

"

Claim rooted in Islam

The preacher of the Al-Aqsa Mosque, Sheikh Yousuf Abu Sneina, declared, in a distinct religious context, the belief that all of Israel is "Palestine" forever.

"The Islamic land of Palestine is one and can not be divided. There is no difference between Haifa and Nablus, between Lod and Ramallah, between Jerusalem and Nazareth, between Gaza and Ashkelon," he said on Palestinian television, Sept. 8, 2000, referring to cities in Israel and PA territory. "The land of Palestine is Waqf land that belongs to Muslims throughout the world and no one has the right to act freely or the right to make concessions or to abandon her. Whoever does this betrays a [trust] and is nothing more than a loathsome criminal whose abode is in Hell!"

Sheikh Ikrima Sabri, PA-appointed mufti of Jerusalem and Palestine, said in a Jan. 11, 2001, television broadcast that emphasis on gaining Jerusalem should not be viewed as conceding other parts of Israel.

"We are discussing the current problems and when we speak about Jerusalem it doesn't mean that we have forgotten about Hebron or about Jaffa or about Acre," the sheikh said. "We are speaking about the current problems that have priority at a certain time. It doesn't mean that we have given up. . . . We have announced a number of times that from a religious point of view Palestine from the sea to the river is Islamic."

All agreements are temporary, said Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu Halbiah, a member of Palestinian Sharianic (Islamic law) Rulings Council and rector of advanced studies at the Islamic University, evoking Islam's founder in a July 28, 2000, message on Palestinian television.

"We the nation of Palestine, our fate from Allah is to be the vanguard in the war against the Jews until the resurrection of the dead, as the Prophet Muhammad said: The resurrection of the dead will not come until you do battle with the Jews and kill them. We the Palestinians, are the vanguard in this issue, in this battle, whether we want to or whether we refuse. All the agreements being made are temporary."

Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Madi, a PA religious leader, said on Palestinian television, April 12, 2002: "We are positive that Allah will help us triumph. Our belief is firm that one day we will enter Jerusalem as conquerors, enter Jaffa as conquerors, Ramle and Lod. and all of Palestine, as conquerors. "If [Allah] asks [Arab leaders], on Judgment Day: 'The majority of Palestine was lost in '48, and what did you do? And the remainder was lost in '67, and now it is being vanquished again.' How shall we respond to our Lord?"

Madi said "Palestine shall be the burial grounds of the invaders just as it was for the Tartars, and the Crusaders and for modern colonialism. The Tradition relates to us that Allah's cherished one [Muhammad] said: 'The Jews will battle against you but you shall emerge masters over them.'"

Madi said on Palestinian television, Aug. 3, 2001:

"We will blow them up in Hadera, we will blow them up in Tel-Aviv and in Netanya. . . . We will fight against them and rule over them until the Jew will hide behind the trees and stones and the tree and stone will say: 'Muslim! Servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, kill him.' We will enter Jerusalem as conquerors, and Jaffa as conquerors, and Haifa as conquerors and Ashkelon as conquerors. . . ."

[luiskain]

anyone ever seen that bugs bunny era cartoon where there's that littly yappy dog who always tags around and follows the big dog and the little yappy dog always starts conflict. the little lap dog always goes around screaming and starting trouble and then hides behind the big dog.

"wow spike, you heard that spike? You heard what he said, spike?"

"oh man, you're gonna get it now, Spike's big and tough and real angry now, aren't you Spike??"

then spike goes in to fight and gets fucked up.

AMERI-ISRAELI relationship simplified stupified.

[SFTunnel76]

Bassboy I must laugh at your posts- All you say is how bad Israel is, when all Israel is doing is defending herself. When one looks at the many Arab atrocities that have been committed in recent history- you realize one thing.

The Arab world is racist, sexist, poverty stricken, diseased, inbred, filled with religious hatred, ignorant, and celebrates mass murder of woman and children. The Arabs have killed their own with guns, hangings, be-headings, chemical and biological weapons, electrified them, and tortured fellow Arabs to death. Arabs even kill there own woman if there raped or not virgins before they get married. ( Honor Killings ) Do you people ever take responsiblity. I guess its far easier for the Arabs to blame everyone else for there failures.

[bassboy]

Ok, I am not posting any kind of Arab propaganda and I am not condoning the terrorist means of suicide bombing used by the Palestinians.

SFTunnel76 you said that Zionism is a result of the holocaust. Zionism started in the early 1900's and if you do your homework you will actually see that the Zionist used terror themselves to get international attention; i.e. blowing up a hotel in London, etc.

And all that stuff you posted about the holocaust, - what are you trying to tell me? Of course that was a tragedy.

But the Palestinians had nothing to do with it. They had their own problems being colonized by the British, and they are suffering more or less as external victims of the holocaust themselves.

BUT NONE OF THIS IS THE POINT OF MY POST.

The point is that our support of Israel is doing more harm than good FOR THE UNITED STATES.

I don't see anyone addressing that.

Show me the benefits of our alliance with Israel and educate my obvious ignorance.

[jesseh49]

Originally posted by luiskain

anyone ever seen that bugs bunny era cartoon where there's that littly yappy dog who always tags around and follows the big dog and the little yappy dog always starts conflict. the little lap dog always goes around screaming and starting trouble and then hides behind the big dog.

"wow spike, you heard that spike? You heard what he said, spike?"

"oh man, you're gonna get it now, Spike's big and tough and real angry now, aren't you Spike??"

then spike goes in to fight and gets fucked up.

AMERI-ISRAELI relationship simplified stupified.

I think you need to stop watching so many cartoons and actually open up a history book. Israel has NO problem fighting there own battles. After the Jews were killed during the Olympics Israel went in with a covert operation to this day that still amazes people and killed everyone of the people responsible.

They recently had Arafat holed up in his compound for weeks like a scared little bitch. We(USA) have actually asked Israel to hold back so as not to hurt our Fight Against Terrorism. If the real force of Israel was unleashed watch out. You do know that even though they deny having nuclear weapons that they really do have a nuclear arsenal.

[gqraver]

Originally posted by bassboy

Ok, I am not posting any kind of Arab propaganda and I am not condoning the terrorist means of suicide bombing used by the Palestinians.

SFTunnel76 you said that Zionism is a result of the holocaust. Zionism started in the early 1900's and if you do your homework you will actually see that the Zionist used terror themselves to get international attention; i.e. blowing up a hotel in London, etc.

And all that stuff you posted about the holocaust, - what are you trying to tell me? Of course that was a tragedy.

But the Palestinians had nothing to do with it. They had their own problems being colonized by the British, and they are suffering more or less as external victims of the holocaust themselves.

BUT NONE OF THIS IS THE POINT OF MY POST.

The point is that our support of Israel is doing more harm than good FOR THE UNITED STATES.

I don't see anyone addressing that.

Show me the benefits of our alliance with Israel and educate my obvious ignorance.

It was actually me, not SFTunnel76 that posted that about the Zionistic movement.

OK, so nevermind everything else, the point of your post is as you said "The point is that our support of Israel is doing more harm than good FOR THE UNITED STATES."

So would being an ally with the P.L.O. will be beneficial? Do you not think that if the US needed helped in the Middle East, it will be Israel who will be helping out? Israel is not a third world country nation and it produces people who help this world in many areas like science, medicine etc.

Let me ask you this, if the US support of Israel is doing more harm than good, then why does the US put up with it? Think logically here, the US does thing to help its people, and there obviously are reasons why the US feels they should support Israel.

But this is going to go in circles. This is my last posting concerning this, and if you think that is conceding that you are right, then think what you want.

-peace in the middle east

[somebitch]

Originally posted by gqraver

Let me ask you this, if the US support of Israel is doing more harm than good, then why does the US put up with it? Think logically here, the US does thing to help its people, and there obviously are reasons why the US feels they should support Israel.

what are those reasons if u dont mind me asking? also, if we gave the kind of support we give them to any other nation they would be a lot more technologically advanced too.