A Nazi once said...

[igloo]

Originally posted by wideskies

igloo, your problem is that you don't care to THINK about the issues you raise.

i would imagine that most of our pro-war/bush/conservative posters who may agree with some of the viewpoints (not your own) you blindly post on this messageboard agree with them because they've taken the time to think them through and draw their own conclusions.

you, on the other hand, vomit out insults and fail to prove that you have any grasp of reason altogether.

You are so right...you win-I agree....you should know--you have seen my posts over the past two years, so you must know..

Fucking jerkoff--you know nothing about me, or what I have posted here...I have not seen your ass here until the last few weeks...and now you post the same tired ass shit that I have been kicking the snot out of the last two years (mostly Sassa)..

You are a perfect example of exactly why I stopped posting for a while--because it was the same shit over and over and over.....which is why I simply respond with snoring smilies now(which you have noted)..

Shove your baseless assumptions up your ass jerkoff

[wideskies]

what tired-ass shit?

the assertion that you aren't actually SAYING anything with your posts?

hehehe. the most you post, the more you fail to impress anyone. insults are NOT the path to education, man.

[wideskies]

as if to prove my point, igloo edits his post to add more insults.

[igloo]

Originally posted by wideskies

what tired-ass shit?

the assertion that you aren't actually SAYING anything with your posts?

hehehe. the most you post, the more you fail to impress anyone. insults are NOT the path to education, man.

:bored:

oops..more smilies

[ghhhhhost]

TOOL

BOX

[normalnoises]

Hey Igloo (seeing as how you already got your ass handed to you). Since you're soooo hell bent on getting your rocks off on Supporting Bush and the rest of his warmongering scumbags did you support Clinton's attack on Serbia?

[ghhhhhost]

ahhhh.....i cant wait to hear this answer...!

[cintron]

**INTERMISSION**

[sassa]

Originally posted by igloo

You are so right...you win-I agree....you should know--you have seen my posts over the past two years, so you must know..

Fucking jerkoff--you know nothing about me, or what I have posted here...I have not seen your ass here until the last few weeks...and now you post the same tired ass shit that I have been kicking the snot out of the last two years (mostly Sassa)..

You are a perfect example of exactly why I stopped posting for a while--because it was the same shit over and over and over.....which is why I simply respond with snoring smilies now(which you have noted)..

Shove your baseless assumptions up your ass jerkoff

you have a total of 7 insults in your reply...95 words...one insult every 13.5 words...

you need to stop acting like you have it all down, because you really don't.

[nycmuzik]

if you don't mind wideskies, i'll draw that parallel (||) a bit more...

i agree with you for using that quote, because that's something i have also been pointing out for a while now...

but here it is in short:

reichstags brand: burning of the berlin parliament by hitler's party...the burning was blamed on the communists to make the people believe they were under attack...

|| wtc...was allowed to happen when it could have been stopped

How exactly was 9-11 allowed to happen??....This conspiracy theory goes along the lines of every Jewish worker in the towers being told not to go in that day....The national security of this country was greatly jeopardized during the Clinton Administration....Clinton had the chance to take out Bin Laden and look what happened....Now Bush is doing whats necessary to make sure Saddam doesnt become the next Osama....

hitler: if you want your people to support you in waging a war, make them believe they are under attack...

|| bush "we are under attack"

We are under attack....9-11 was the blow that changed the way America deals with its threats.....We can no longer just sit around and wait to be attacked....We need go after the clear and present danger.....Also, hasnt Al Qeada pulled off numerous attacks all over the world??....

blitzkrieg: storm war...taking of poland in matter of days...

|| shock and awe

Blitzkrieg doesnt apply to the taking of Poland in minutes....It means lightning war and its a military strategy....For all the bad things the Nazi's did, they were brilliant military planners....You can compare blitzkrieg to shock and awe only on the military planning level.....To say the current US gov't is like the Nazi's because of this is meaningless....

embeded journalists: nazis decided to embed journalists in army units to report the war...no dissent allowed in germany, and all the media is controlled by the nazis...only dissent comes from underground sources...

|| embeded journalists for the u.s. media (idea proposed by the pentagon)

There are over 500 reporters from all over the world embedded with the US military....The opinions they offered greatly differed...Just take a look at Fox and AL-Jazerra....Both embedded yet at complete opposites of the spectrum....If the US wanted to censor opinion of the war then they wouldnt ask Al-Jazerra to come along for the ride....

book burnings: nazis instigate burnings of books showing any kind of liberal thinking or dissent...

|| media-glorified public smashings of dixie chicks' cds...denigration of any kind of dissent by labeling it "unpatriot"...boycotting of actors instigated by media

Lead singer makes comment overseas.....Comment she made gets people mad back in the States....People call radio stations asking to boycott the group....Radio stations do what the listeners want....They brought it upon themselves....The gov't didnt tell radio stations to stop playing their songs or ask people not to go out and buy their records.....Just look at Micheal Moore....The week following his Oscar comments, his book "Stupid White Men' climbed back to the #1 spot atop the NY Times Bestsellers list and his movie "Shooting Columbine" saw a huge increase in ticket sales.....Once again, what kind of influence did the gov't have in these cases??.....

suspension of constitutional rights: done by germany right after the burning of the parliament in 1933..."... [sic] suspended by the presidential decree and therefore gave the executive full power to arrest people without a warrant and hold them without formal charges being filed in a court, that is to say no writ of habeus corpus. To suspend for the time being freedom of speech, assembly, petition, and privacy of communications, and the freedom to associate with others in political organizations of any sort."

|| patriot act and soon coming patritot act 2 (aka dse act)

Millions of people in this country have protested this war.....There are probably hundreds of anti-war and anti-gov't sites on the web....The same goes for the media....What you read and what you watch is up to you and not the gov't.....I dont think Sassa or NormalNoises are being monitored by the govt for some of the comments they made on here...

[normalnoises]

Originally posted by nycmuzik

How exactly was 9-11 allowed to happen??

http://printerfriendly.abcnews.com/printerfriendly/Print?fetchFromGLUE=true&GLUEService=ABCNewsCom

What Happened?

Bush Was Warned of Hijackings Before 9/11; Lawmakers Want Public Inquiry

May 16

— The Bush administration defended its handling of the information about possible hijackings of American planes by Osama bin Laden’s terrorist network as congressional leaders called for a public inquiry into what White House officials knew and how they responded.

White House officials acknowledged that U.S. intelligence officials informed President Bush weeks before the Sept. 11 attacks that bin Laden's terrorist network might try to hijack American planes, and that information prompted administration officials to issue a private warning to transportation officials and national security agencies.

In a press briefing, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice said the threats were very general and did not mention a specific time, place or mode of terrorist attack. Rice described a chronology of events detailing the how agencies dealt with the information about terrorist threats and how Bush was informed.

Officials, Rice said, were primarily concerned that the attacks would take place overseas in the Middle East, the Arab Peninsula and Europe, and thought terrorist groups would choose a more "traditional" mode of hijacking. They thought terrorists would hijack an airplane and hold passengers captive and demand the release of one of their operatives. The FBI, Rice said, reported that there was no way to predict a terrorist attack domestically, but that it remained a concern.

In July, there was a heightened sense that there would be an attack because of unrest in the Middle East, and officials were concerned that terrorists were targeting Paris, Rome and Turkey, she said. The Federal Aviation Administration became so concerned it issued several information circulars in June, July and August and ordered officials to be on a heightened state of alert, particularly overseas.

Sources told ABCNEWS that one circular released in June said, "Although we have no specific information that this threat is directed at civil aviation, the potential for terrorist operations, such as an airline hijacking to free terrorists incarcerated in the U.S. remains a concern." One July circular, sources told ABCNEWS, did mention bin Laden, but only in a very general way.

No One Predicted the ‘Non-Traditional’ Hijacking

On Aug. 6, Rice said, Bush received an "analytical report" at his ranch in Crawford, Texas, where officials described the methods bin Laden had used in past terrorist attacks. She defended the administration's decision not to issue a warning to the American people, saying that the threats were not specific.

"It is always a question of how good the information is and whether putting the information out is a responsible thing to do," Rice said. "You would have risked shutting down the American civil aviation system with such generalized information. You would have to think five, six, seven times about that, very, very hard."

Rice stressed that there was no way anyone could have predicted that terrorists would use hijacked planes as missiles and attack the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

She, and White House spokesman Ari Fleischer earlier in the day, said that before Sept. 11 "hijacking" had a different meaning to people than it did afterwards.

"Had this president been aware that terrorists would have used airplanes as missiles and attacked the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, he would have acted on it," Rice said.

‘We Need Facts on the Table’

House Minority Leader Richard Gephardt called today for a full investigation that is open to public scrutiny.

"I think what we have to do now is to find out what the president, what the White House knew about the events leading up to 9-11, when they knew it and most importantly what was done about it at that time," he said.

Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, D-S.D., echoed Gephardt's call. "Why did it take eight months for us to receive this information?" Daschle asked, calling for a blue-ribbon commission to investigate. "And secondly, what specific actions were taken by the White House in response?"

Daschle said that Vice President Dick Cheney had "requested on several occasions that we not have an inquiry" into what intelligence the administration had before the hijackings and how they acted on it.

In a speech at a dinner marking the 40th anniversary of the New York State Conservative Party in New York tonight, Cheney criticized Democrats for using partisan tactics in a time of war and hoped an inquiry would not interfere with ongoing battle against terrorism.

"An investigation must not interfere with the ongoing efforts to prevent the next attack, because without a doubt a very real threat of another perhaps more devastating attack still exists," Cheney said. "The people and agencies responsible for helping us learn about and defeat such an attack are the very ones most likely to be distracted from their critical duties if Congress fails to carry out their obligations in a responsible fashion."

Senate Minority Leader Trent Lott, R-Miss., was outraged by the attacks on Bush, calling them reprehensible.

"I really think there's nothing more despicable … for someone to insinuate that the president of the United States knew there was an attack on our country that was imminent and didn't do anything about it," Lott said.

Lott suggested that the country has to remain united, especially as the U.S. war on terrorism continues.

"For us to be talking like our enemy, George W. Bush instead of Osama bin Laden, that's not right," Lott said.

House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., insisted the threats before Sept. 11 were not kept secret from anyone.

"It is common knowledge that the government of the United States was put on higher alert during the summer of 2001, in response to non-specific threats from terrorists," Hastert said in a statement. "The federal government took all appropriate steps to respond to that threat. Democrats now say that they were kept in the dark about these threats. That is not the case. These threats were relayed on a bipartisan basis to the House Intelligence Committee in real time."

Ignored Warning Signs

The revelation came as legislators were already demanding an explanation following the emergence of an FBI memo alluding to ignored warning signs about Sept. 11. Two months before the hijackings, FBI agents in Phoenix reported their suspicions about Arab students at a Phoenix flight school, and directly referred to the possibility of a connection to bin Laden.

"There should have been bells and whistles going off," Sen. John Edwards, D-N.C., said today on ABCNEWS' Good Morning America.

There were "three huge warning signs," Edwards said, referring to a memo from the FBI about al Qaeda members training in flight schools in Arizona; the arrest of suspected terrorist Zacarias Moussaoui — the alleged "20th hijacker" — in Minnesota; and the warning given to Bush in August while he was vacationing at his ranch.

In the memo from the Phoenix FBI office to headquarters, the agents recommended an urgent nationwide review of flight schools "for any information that supports Phoenix's suspicions" of a terrorist connection. The memo reportedly cited bin Laden by name.

The memo's existence apparently has been known for months, but until recently, lawmakers and congressional staff had not gained full access to it and the direct reference to bin Laden had not been revealed.

"Was anything done about any of those things?" Edwards asked. "Why are we finding out now, eight months later? … Was any action of any kind taken?"

The memo has still has not been publicly released. Sens. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., and Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., are among the lawmakers asking the FBI to release it, and are demanding an investigation into the missed warning signs.

But Edwards said the White House has been resistant to allowing the investigation to proceed.

"We've had some tension about trying to get the investigation started," he said.

No Big Picture

FBI Director Robert Mueller, who took over the post after Sept. 11, has told Congress none of the signals was sufficient to prevent the attacks, but conceded the bureau failed to properly follow them.

"We did not have the people who were looking at the broader picture to put the pieces in place," he said at a recent hearing.

The White House also insists the FBI did not drop the ball. Mueller is seeking to address some of the flaws exposed by the Sept. 11 attacks by creating a new terrorism-fighting team in Washington that will oversee all U.S. terrorism investigations worldwide, officials told The Associated Press.

ABCNEWS' Terry Moran, Linda Douglass, Brian Ross and Lisa Sylvester contributed to this report.

[frenchbread]

Originally posted by nycmuzik

How exactly was 9-11 allowed to happen??....This conspiracy theory goes along the lines of every Jewish worker in the towers being told not to go in that day....The national security of this country was greatly jeopardized during the Clinton Administration....Clinton had the chance to take out Bin Laden and look what happened....Now Bush is doing whats necessary to make sure Saddam doesnt become the next Osama....

9/11 was allowed to attack because evidence was there, warnings were there, yet the administration left it happen, and as i'm sure you know i've already posted on that subject, but here we go again:

january 2001

The Bush Administration orders the FBI to "back off" investigations of two of Osama bin Laden's relatives (Abdullah and Omar) who were living in Falls Church, VA.

feb 13, 2001

UPI, while covering a trial of bin Laden's al-Qaeda follower, reports that the NSA has broken bin Laden's encryypted communications.

june 2001

German intelligence warns the CIA and Israel that terrorists are "planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture."

summer 2001

An iranian man phones US law enforcement to warn of an imminent attack on the WTC in the week of September 9th. German police confirm the calls.

summer 2001

Russian intelligence notifies the CIA that 25 terrorists pilots have been specifically training for suicide missions.

August 2001

The FBI arrests an Islamic militant linked to bin Laden in Boston. The suspect has been taking flying lessons. At the time of his arrest the man is in possession of technical information on Boeing aircraft and flight manuals.

august 2001

Vladimir Putin orders Russian intelligence to warn the US government "in the strongest possible terms" od imminent attacks on airports and government buildings.

august 11

US Navy Lt. Delmart "Mike" Vreeland, jailed in Toronto on US fraud charges and claiming to be with naval intelligence, writes list of possible terrorist targets, including the WTC, and seals it in an envelope which he gives to Canadian Authorities.

sept. 6th~7th, 2001

4,744 put options (a speculation that the stock will go down) are purchased on united air lines stock, as opposed to only 366 call options (speculation that the stock will go up). this is 285 times above normal. many of the ual puts are purchased through deutsche banc/alex. brown, a firm managed until 1998 by a.b. "buzzy" kongrad, now the third-ranking cia official.

sept. 10th, 2001

4,516 put options are puschased on american airlines, as compared to 748 call options. no other airlines show similar trading patterns.

sept. 11th, 2001

employess of odigo, inc. in israel, one of the world's largest instant-messaging companides, receive threat warnings of an imminent attack on the wtc less than two hours before the first plane hits. both the cia and mossad are notified.

sept. 11th, 2001

for 50 minutes, from 8:15am to 9:05am, though it's widely known within the FAA and the military that four planes have been simultaneously hijacked and taken off course, no fighters are scrambled. this violates 25 years of established procedure.

Originally posted by nycmuzik

We are under attack....9-11 was the blow that changed the way America deals with its threats.....We can no longer just sit around and wait to be attacked....We need go after the clear and present danger.....Also, hasnt Al Qeada pulled off numerous attacks all over the world??....

and i'm telling you that follows to the letter the strategy used by hitler...

Originally posted by nycmuzik

Blitzkrieg doesnt apply to the taking of Poland in minutes....It means lightning war and its a military strategy....For all the bad things the Nazi's did, they were brilliant military planners....You can compare blitzkrieg to shock and awe only on the military planning level.....To say the current US gov't is like the Nazi's because of this is meaningless....

thanks...i know what blitzkrieg is...

and i'm telling you that shock and awe is very similar to blitzkrieg...

Originally posted by nycmuzik

There are over 500 reporters from all over the world embedded with the US military....The opinions they offered greatly differed...Just take a look at Fox and AL-Jazerra....Both embedded yet at complete opposites of the spectrum....If the US wanted to censor opinion of the war then they wouldnt ask Al-Jazerra to come along for the ride....

ok...

first off you need to check your facts...

there were not 500 reporters embedded in the u.s. military...

there were about 452 journalists covering the war total...

257 embedded and 195 independant...

on top of that, you know very well that the only embedded journalists reporting to us, where u.s. journalists...

nazis used embedded journalists because it guarantees control over the news being reported...

how much objectivity do you really think a u.s. journalist travelling day in day out with a u.s. military unit, whose life depends on that unit, can give you?...

that's the "beauty" of embedded journalism...

Originally posted by nycmuzik

Lead singer makes comment overseas.....Comment she made gets people mad back in the States....People call radio stations asking to boycott the group....Radio stations do what the listeners want....They brought it upon themselves....The gov't didnt tell radio stations to stop playing their songs or ask people not to go out and buy their records.....Just look at Micheal Moore....The week following his Oscar comments, his book "Stupid White Men' climbed back to the #1 spot atop the NY Times Bestsellers list and his movie "Shooting Columbine" saw a huge increase in ticket sales.....Once again, what kind of influence did the gov't have in these cases??.....

we've already had a discussion about that too...

and my point again...

dixie chicks: allowed to say what they think about the gov't

private citizens: just as allowed to say what they think about the dixie chicks

media: should remain impartial and not voice personal opinion that "it's great to see supporters" smash d.chicks' cds...one thing to report it...another to support it...they should let people make their own mind up, as opposed to telling them what's what...but then again...

Originally posted by nycmuzik

Millions of people in this country have protested this war.....There are probably hundreds of anti-war and anti-gov't sites on the web....The same goes for the media....What you read and what you watch is up to you and not the gov't.....I dont think Sassa or NormalNoises are being monitored by the govt for some of the comments they made on here...

what does that have to do with what i've told you?...

this administration has passed exact same laws as the nazis did, and under the same pretenses as the nazis did...

did you know that the president can have any american arrested, without warrants, proofs or anything else, and have them executed?...that's right...

[cintron]

Originally posted by frenchbread

i'm telling you that follows to the letter the strategy used by hitler...

i know what blitzkrieg is...

and i'm telling you that shock and awe is very similar to blitzkrieg...

Well, most often, crisis response is very simple. Clean up the mess, find a way to prevent it from happening again and take the appropriate action.

Applied to politics, this means you have to go before a group and get approval to do these things, both the congress and the american public. The easiest way to do that is to present what's happened in as critical a light as possible. It's not some "Nazi-only" dirty thing that only Hitler used. It's the same old political trick that's been used throughout history.

Project a genuine danger and the public will agree to the use of force. It''s what started the Civil war, the revolutionary war, WWI, and others. Hitler combined the usage of a HEAVY dosage of propoganda in order to sway the public towards action. The difference is that Hitler invaded pretty much all of Europe and aimed for eventual world domination. Oh and of course, we didn't start government sponsored programs on how the Iraqi and the Muslim are an inferior race and deserve to be destroyed. We're attacking what we consider to be one source of trouble while sending a strong message to OTHER potential areas [i.e. Libya, Syria, etc. etc.] that we've put up with their shit for long enough now, but airplanes are bringing down our buildings and US citizens are getting caught up in THEIR style of fanaticism... and we aren't going to tolerate that shit.

Basic point: Fuck with us and wave chem/bio/conventional big bang weapons around, or sponsor/give free reign to groups that wish to do the same and we WILL find a way to shove that right back up your ass.

Brutal and somewhat primitive, but then again... if certain groups and nations were a little more intellectual and civilized, they would be preventing these things themselves.

the second fact is, Blitzkreig is an outstanding military model for success. Various armies all over the world have copied and refined that tactic, simply because it is an effective way to fiight a war. the last thing you want to do with ground forces is allow them to become bogged down in house-to-house fighting, losing lots of lives, destroying everything and gaining very little ground.

the Soviet Union copied the tactics of Blitzkreig in its doctrine, based on a lightning fast ground attack by massive amounts of units. that scenario was meant to have been played out in the european theater during the cold war, leading to the development of US tactics and weaponry to counter the soviet threat. Weaponry was designed and built to effectively destroy masses of Soviet armor and aircraft quickly and efficiently. [this is where depleted uranium shells made their debut in anti-tank warfare].

Our military today, with its rapid-deployment capability, is a quick-strike "shock" force. Though we are capable of sustaining extended campaigns [even though the american public isn't capable of sustaining anything that lasts more than the average TV miniseries], the primary design and purpose of our military is to "blow the enemy's defenses wide open and pour in."

Any other method of fighting a war is pointless. You don't go into war to be polite or fight at a pace that TV coverage can show and analyze properly. You go in to win and end things as quickly as possible.

Hitler knew that, Stalin knew that, Israel, Japan and the United states know that, as does Britain and many other top military powers. "Shock and awe" is a rather silly term for a fast paced campaign, but it's really how wars should be fought. You go in to win, not to consider what the other side might feel.

[siceone]

Originally posted by normalnoises

Igloo, "By giving us your opinion from the uneducated keeps us in touch of your ignorance of the community."

you're the worst like seriously

and the blitzkrieg was nothing like shock and awe

the theory of shock and awe was writen by an american civilian

[normalnoises]

Prescott Bush is the father of George HW Bush. Looks like the Bush family had nazi connections.

http://www.baltech.org/lederman/gw-cia-nazi-5-3-01.html

BOSTON GLOBE 4/23/2001

TRIUMPHS, TROUBLES SHAPE GENERATIONS

PRESCOTT BUSH PAVED MODERATE PATH FOR SON AND GRANDSON;

WOUNDED BY FRIEND'S BETRAYAL,

HE PUT HIGH PRICE ON LOYALTY

By Michael Kranish, Globe Staff

Date: 04/23/2001 Page: A1 Section: National/Foreign

AN AMERICAN DYNASTY Last of two parts "Prescott Bush was surely aghast at a sensational article the New York Herald Tribune splashed on its front page in July 1942. "Hitler's Angel Has 3 Million in US Bank,"read the headline above a story reporting that Adolf Hitler's financier had stowed the fortune in Union Banking Corp., possibly to be held for "Nazi bigwigs."

Bush knew all about the New York bank: He was one of its seven directors. If the Nazi tie became known, it would be a potential "embarrassment,"Bush and his partners at Brown Brothers Harriman worried, explaining to government regulators that their position was merely an unpaid courtesy for a client. The situation grew more serious when the government seized Union's assets under the Trading with the Enemy Act, the sort of action that could have ruined Bush's political dreams.

As it turned out, his involvement wasn't pursued by the press or political opponents during his Senate campaigns a decade later. But the episode may well have been one of the catalysts for a dramatic change in his life. Just as the Union Banking story broke, Bush volunteered to be chairman of United Service Organizations, putting himself on the national stage for the first time. He traveled the country raising millions of dollars to help boost the morale of US troops during World War II, enhancing his stature in a way that helped him get elected US senator. A son and grandson would become presidents."

Daily News 4/28/2001

Secret Files Show U.S. Used Nazis

By DAVE GOLDINER Daily News Staff Writer

Thousands of pages of top-secret U.S. files on Nazi leaders reveal intense Western efforts to recruit Nazi war criminals - and a fascinating psychological portrait of Adolf Hitler.

Adolf Hitler The new information about Hitler comes in a 1944 CIA memo quoting an informant who says he struck up a conversation with the Fuhrer's personal physician seven years earlier - and the doctor predicted then Hitler could become "the craziest criminal the world ever saw."

The comments were reportedly made by German surgeon Ferdinand Sauerbruch who spoke about Hitler's growing megalomania at dinner party in 1937.

"Sauerbruch ... stated that from close observation of Hitler for many years, he had formed the opinion that the Nazi leader was a border case between genius and insanity and that ... the decision would take place in the near future whether Hitler's mind would swing toward the latter,"the memo said.

Months later, the doctor said Hitler's "swing toward insanity had taken place,"according to the informant.

The document is among 10,000 pages of CIA files about the Nazis declassified yesterday - and released during a news conference at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington.

Josef Mengele The documents show that high-ranking Nazis - including death doctor Josef Mengele and Adolf Eichmann - were coddled by American and Soviet spymasters as World War II ended.

"The real winners of the Cold War were Nazi criminals,"Justice Department official Eli Rosenbaum said. "East and West became so rapidly focused on challenging each other that they lost their will to pursue Nazi perpetrators. They even deemed some of the criminals to be useful allies."

The Nazi files were declassified under the terms of the Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act of 2000.

They paint a disturbing portrait of postwar Europe, in which nearly a dozen top Nazis bought their freedom by peddling intelligence to the CIA's predecessor or the Russian KGB.

"The United States of America retained Nazi war criminals, and there will be no question about it,"said Thomas Baer, who worked with the CIA to pull the documents from long-forgotten files.

The documents also indicated that American intelligence chief Allen Dulles conducted secret negotiations in Switzerland with Nazi war criminals.

Heinrich Mueller The Nazis later used the high-level contact with Dulles, who later became CIA director, to slip through the fingers of Nazi hunters after the war.

The files included plenty of previously unknown details about Hitler's top lieutenants, including Mengele, Eichmann, Gestapo chief Heinrich Mueller, and Klaus Barbie, the Gestapo chief in occupied Lyon, France.

As the war wound down, the Americans made little effort to pursue Eichmann, one of the key architects of the final solution, until 1959, when Israeli agents captured him for trial.

Former UN Secretary Kurt Waldheim, who was accused of Nazi wartime atrocities, also turns up in the files. Scholars say there is no evidence he cooperated with American intelligence, although he may have dealt with the Russians.

Also go here: http://www.baltech.org/lederman/bush-nazi-fortune-2-09-02.html

[cintron]

enough with the america-hating already. The fact that you're comparing our actions to Nazi world domination and the horrors they took part in, is absolutely ludicrous and insulting.

Everywhere in the world, individuals follow political models similar to other countries. The Nazis weren't the only ones to find ways to influence the public and sway opinion, and doing so does NOT make a government Nazi. That is so incredibly naieve of you to suggest such a thing, i am nearly speechless.

If you wish to compare our actions with those of the Nazi government then where is the racial prejudice? Where is the government funded hatred and education that muslims and Iraqis are an inferior race? Why are we even allowing the Iraqis to form their own government? Why did we not take all the oil for the "greater glory of America" and shut the rest of the world out from everything? why did we invite the UN to become part of reconstrution? Where are the holocaust camps for millions of iraqis, the poison gas showers, the summary executions and shallow graves?

I warn you, don't make such a comparison lightly, because i feel you do NOT understand the weight of your words. To suggest a country follows Hitler's path goes far beyond politics. It suggests a hatred of the most hideous and unimaginable kind.

The method of politics practiced by the Nazi regime are the used all the world over. I think it's tragic that you would fling around a comparison so easily in your rhetoric. It proves your words are hollow and you have no concept of what you are suggesting.

If the United States is truly like Nazi germany, as you suggest, then I suggest you speak to some holocaust survivors to better understand the horror that you are comparing.

[mr mahs]

Originally posted by cintron

enough with the america-hating already. The fact that you're comparing our actions to Nazi world domination and the horrors they took part in, is absolutely ludicrous and insulting.

Everywhere in the world, individuals follow political models similar to other countries. The Nazis weren't the only ones to find ways to influence the public and sway opinion, and doing so does NOT make a government Nazi. That is so incredibly naieve of you to suggest such a thing, i am nearly speechless.

If you wish to compare our actions with those of the Nazi government then where is the racial prejudice? Where is the government funded hatred and education that muslims and Iraqis are an inferior race? Why are we even allowing the Iraqis to form their own government? Why did we not take all the oil for the "greater glory of America" and shut the rest of the world out from everything? why did we invite the UN to become part of reconstrution? Where are the holocaust camps for millions of iraqis, the poison gas showers, the summary executions and shallow graves?

I warn you, don't make such a comparison lightly, because i feel you do NOT understand the weight of your words. To suggest a country follows Hitler's path goes far beyond politics. It suggests a hatred of the most hideous and unimaginable kind.

The method of politics practiced by the Nazi regime are the used all the world over. I think it's tragic that you would fling around a comparison so easily in your rhetoric. It proves your words are hollow and you have no concept of what you are suggesting.

If the United States is truly like Nazi germany, as you suggest, then I suggest you speak to some holocaust survivors to better understand the horror that you are comparing.

Good stuff bro..

[igloo]

Originally posted by cintron

enough with the america-hating already. The fact that you're comparing our actions to Nazi world domination and the horrors they took part in, is absolutely ludicrous and insulting.

Everywhere in the world, individuals follow political models similar to other countries. The Nazis weren't the only ones to find ways to influence the public and sway opinion, and doing so does NOT make a government Nazi. That is so incredibly naieve of you to suggest such a thing, i am nearly speechless.

If you wish to compare our actions with those of the Nazi government then where is the racial prejudice? Where is the government funded hatred and education that muslims and Iraqis are an inferior race? Why are we even allowing the Iraqis to form their own government? Why did we not take all the oil for the "greater glory of America" and shut the rest of the world out from everything? why did we invite the UN to become part of reconstrution? Where are the holocaust camps for millions of iraqis, the poison gas showers, the summary executions and shallow graves?

I warn you, don't make such a comparison lightly, because i feel you do NOT understand the weight of your words. To suggest a country follows Hitler's path goes far beyond politics. It suggests a hatred of the most hideous and unimaginable kind.

The method of politics practiced by the Nazi regime are the used all the world over. I think it's tragic that you would fling around a comparison so easily in your rhetoric. It proves your words are hollow and you have no concept of what you are suggesting.

If the United States is truly like Nazi germany, as you suggest, then I suggest you speak to some holocaust survivors to better understand the horror that you are comparing.

excellent

[normalnoises]

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/ashcroft_dachau.htm

Ashcroft Following Nazi Example

In mid-August 2002 U.S. Attorney-General John Ashcroft announced a plan that would give him the legal right to order the indefinite incarceration of U.S. citizens and remove from them their constitutional rights and access to the courts by declaring them "enemy combatants".

This follows the cases of José Padilla and Yaser Esam Hamdi, both U.S. citizens arrested as "enemy combatants", imprisoned despite there being no evidence against them of any criminal activity, denied access to lawyers and denied a trial.

The Bush administration seems to believe, on no good legal authority, that if it calls citizens combatants in the war on terrorism, it can imprison them indefinitely and deprive them of lawyers. This defiance of the courts repudiates two centuries of constitutional law and undermines the very freedoms that President Bush says he is defending in the struggle against terrorism. — Editorial in the New York Times, 2002-08-08

Lest it be thought that Ashcroft is arrogating unconstitutional powers to himself alone aides have indicated that a "high-level committee" will recommend which citizens are to be stripped of their constitutional rights and to be imprisoned in the proposed camps.

Now where have we heard of this sort of thing before? Ah, yes ... the Nazi concentration camps. One of the first things that the Nazis did, even before Hitler's Enabling Act (enacted on March 24, 1933) giving him and his henchmen the near-dictatorial powers that John Ashcroft seeks, was to suppress dissent by arresting and imprisoning German citizens deemed to be enemies of the state and placing them in indefinite incarceration in Dachau.

[Dachau was] the first Nazi concentration camp in Germany, established on March 10, 1933, slightly more than five weeks after Adolf Hitler became chancellor. Built on the outskirts of the town of Dachau, about 12 miles (16 kilometres) north of Munich, it became the model and training centre for all other SS-organized camps. During World War II the main camp was supplemented by about 150 branches scattered throughout southern Germany and Austria, all of which collectively were called Dachau. (This southern system complemented the camps for central and northern Germany, at Buchenwald and Sachsenhausen.) In the course of Dachau's history, at least 160,000 prisoners passed through the main camp and 90,000 through the branches. Incomplete records indicate that at least 32,000 of the inmates died there, through the "natural diminution" of disease, malnutrition, and physical oppression; but numberless more were transshipped to the extermination camps in Poland.

Dachau was the first and most important camp at which German doctors and scientists set up laboratories to perform medical experiments on involuntary inmates, using them as guinea pigs ... Continued throughout World War II, such experiments and the harsh living conditions made Dachau one of the most notorious of camps. — Encyclopedia Britannica

Since the "detainees" in Ashcroft's camps will have no constitutional rights, the government will be able to do anything it wants with and to them. Might the germ warfare scientists at the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases (Fort Detrick, MD) be pleased to have some human guinea pigs on which to test their anthrax vaccines? And if they develop a new virus that might be useful in killing "enemy populations" they would, of course, first have to test it on a few humans, and the inmates of Ashcroft's camps will conveniently be at hand.

Of course you, as a law-abiding U.S. citizen, would never end up in one of these camps, right? That's what thousands of law-abiding German citizens thought in 1933, so they said nothing.

First they came for the Jews

and I did not speak out — because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the communists

and I did not speak out — because I was not a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists

and I did not speak out — because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me —

and by then there was no one left to speak out for me.

— Pastor Martin Niemöller

And if you don't end up in one of these camps, what about your son or daughter? It will be no good going to a U.S. court and demanding that the government provide due process, or even any information at all. The government will say, as it has done in the case of Yaser Esam Hamdi, that since the U.S. is "at war" the usual legal niceties no longer apply, and judges and defense lawyers will just have to get used to it. Remember, "enemy combatants" have no rights. Zip. None. Tough about your kid dying from that experimental vaccine they gave him in the camp, but hey! America is at war, aren't you a patriot?

And given that Ashcroft is a rabid, fundamentalist Christian, one has to wonder what he might have in mind for the Jews, when the time is right. After Dachau there was Auschwitz.

____________________

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0304/S00116.htm

Laurie Manis: Lest We Forget

Friday, 11 April 2003, 12:47 pm

Opinion: Scoop Reader Opinion

Lest We Forget

By Laurie Manis

In Memory of Wladyslaw Szpilman

Nazism was a form of government that restricted personal freedom but permitted private ownership of property. It called for aggressive nationalism, militarism and expansion of Germany's spheres of control through military conquest. The Nazis glorified Germany and its people, claiming that other nationalities were inferior. It promised to build a harmonious, orderly and prosperous society for the Germans.

Instead it brought terrorism, war and mass murder.

The Nazi agenda was largely based on the premises of Adolph Hitler's book Mein Kampf. In his book, Hitler stated his beliefs and ideas for Germany's future, which included plans to overthrow regimes of countries he perceived to be dangerous to Germany's security or had natural resources needed to fulfill its destiny as the most powerful nation on earth.

Nazism did not gain wide support in Germany until the worldwide business slump of 1929. Discontented Germans then turned to Nazism in increasing numbers because it promised economic help, political power and national glory.

The Nazis' organization, discipline and financial backing from wealthy industrialists, who feared Communism, soon made them a force with which to contend. Many upper-class Germans feared loss of power and property would be a result of the newly formed democratic government, which they suspected might levy taxes in order to redistribute wealth. The farmers, middle and laboring classes were attracted to the promise of social reform, which they believed was badly needed after the excesses and moral lassitude of the Roaring Twenties. Powerless people responded to their ideas of national superiority and strength. The military supported Hitler's ideas of discipline, order and increased funding through rearmament.

Hitler began to assemble some of the people who would help him rise to power. They included:

Joseph Goebbels, the chief Nazi propagandist;

"We do not want a second catastrophe along the lines of (hidden date XXXX). We depend not on the grace of our enemy, rather on military might."

"He knows that we are waging this war for a better peace, that we are fighting for the happiness of people who have so often been oppressed by their governments."

"No power in the world will make us deny our duty, or forget even for a moment our historical task of maintaining the freedom of our people."

Hermann Goering, who became second in command to Hitler;

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

Heinrich Himmler, the leader of the SS;

"Unconditional and highest freedom of will," Himmler instructed his SS, "comes from obedience, from service to our world view, obedience which is prepared to render each and every sacrifice to pride, to external honor and to all which is dear to us personally, obedience which never falters but unconditionally follows every order which comes from the Führer or legally from superiors..."

and Ernst Rohm, the chief of the SA;

"The people want wholesome dread. They want to fear something. They want someone to frighten them and make them shudderingly submissive."

In the July, 1932 election for the Reichstag (parliament) the Nazis received nearly 38% of the vote, making it the largest political party in Germany but not the majority party. Leaders of the other parties offered Hitler Cabinet posts in exchange for Nazi support but he refused to accept any arrangement that did not make him chancellor (prime minister) of Germany The majority of the people did not want Hitler to become chancellor and had serious misgivings about him. But in June of 1933, President von Hindenburg was persuaded by his friends to name Hitler chancellor. Hitler, in turn, promised to act lawfully. He promised to restore the German economy; assure education and work for all; and lead Germany to greatness.

On February 27, a fire began that destroyed the Reichstag building. Many historians believe that it was planned by the Nazis. Although a full investigation was never conducted, the Nazis quickly blamed the Communists. A pro-Communist Dutch anarchist was found at the site and admitted that he had set it.

President von Hindenburg then signed an emergency decree that gave the government unprecedented power. The Nazis moved to control all police authority in Germany, including the right to arrest and hold people without formal charging on suspicion of treason, which served to erode German civil rights.

Hitler promised to rid Germany of Communists and other "enemies", such as the Jews, on whom he blamed Germany's troubles. "By defending myself against the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work", he wrote.

On March 23, 1933, the Nazi-dominated Reichstag passed a law "for the removal of distress from the people and the state". The law, known as the Enabling Act, in effect suspended basic civil and human rights in Germany. Hitler then began to destroy the Constitution through outwardly legal means.

By mid-July 1933, the Gestapo (secret state police) was hunting down enemies and opponents of the government. People were jailed or shot on suspicion alone.

The Nazis used the press, radio and films to flood Germany with propaganda praising the 'New Order', Hitler's term for his reordering of German society and for his plans to reorder the rest of Europe. Germans citizens were kept in a constant state of fear that their country might be attacked by its enemies. Complete faith in the judgment of the Nazi leaders was the measuring stick of devotion to one's country and national pride was the noblest of virtues.

Initially, the rest of the world and the German intelligentia regarded Hitler alternately as a bully or a buffoon. However, Hitler had the common touch. His popularity within Germany grew, despite the flagging economy, especially after the Reichstag fire. More and more, the German people trusted in him implicitly to protect Germany and lead it to greatness.

The citizens of Germany were encouraged to turn to God and prayer for comfort and strength during these troubling times.

"... a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith. From our point of view as representatives of the state, we need believing people. A dark cloud threatens from Poland. We have need of soldiers, believing solders. Believing solders are the most valuable ones. They give their all."

- Adolf Hitler, The German Churches Under Hitler: Background, Struggle, and Epilogue by Ernst Helmreich, page 121.

Hitler also felt he had a personal relationship with God and saw God as his aid in ruling the German Reich:

"Except the Lord built the house they labour in vain.... The truth of that text was proved if one looks at the house of which the foundations were laid in 1918 and which since then has been in building.... The world will not help, the people must help itself. Its own strength is the source of life. That strength the Almighty has given us to use; that in it and through it we may wage the battle of our life.... The others in the past years have not had the blessing of the Almighty -- of Him Who in the last resort, whatever man may do, holds in His hands the final decision. Lord God, let us never hesitate or play the coward, let us never forget the duty which we have taken upon us.... We are all proud that through God's powerful aid we have become once more true Germans."

-Adolf Hitler,March, 1933

The Nazis used racial profiling to target the Jews. Thousands were sent to prison camps along with other political suspects. A network of spies kept watch on the German people and maintained an atmosphere of terror. Judges and courts continued to function but most of the judges either had been appointed by Nazis or were subservient to them.

The regime applauded military training and armament. The German military forces were to be supported without question as the defenders of Germany's safety and greatness. Those who protested were accused of a lack of patriotism. In 1933, Germany withdrew from the League of Nations because the League would not change the arms limitations imposed upon Germany at the end of World War I.

After 1933, Hitler prepared Germany for war with little or no opposition from the members of the Reichstag. The Nazis' goal was to establish Germany as the world's leading power. No nation acted to stop him so his plans became ever bolder. First he invaded Austria, then in 1939, he invaded the German-speaking areas of Czechoslovakia in disregard of the protestations of other European countries. After each success, he planned a new take-over.

On September 1, 1939, Hitler stated that, "The Polish State has refused the peaceful settlement of relations which I desired, and has appealed to arms. Germans in Poland are persecuted with bloody terror and driven from their houses. A series of violations of the frontier, intolerable to a great Power, prove that Poland is no longer willing to respect the frontier of the Reich. In order to put an end to this lunacy, I have no other choice than to meet force with force from now on. The German Army will fight the battle for the honour and the vital rights of reborn Germany with hard determination. I expect that every soldier, mindful of the great traditions of eternal German soldiery, will ever remain conscious that he is a representative of the National-Socialist Greater Germany. Long live our people and our Reich!"

Without provocation, Germany then invaded Poland, a sovereign country that could not defend itself and was no threat whatsoever to German national security, overrunning it just a few weeks. Thousands upon thousands of Polish soldiers were killed in the defense of their homeland. Millions of Polish civilians also met their deaths as a result of the German invasion.

"It also gives us a very special, secret pleasure to see how unaware the people around us are of what is really happening to them." -- Adolf Hitler

*************

Laurie Manis is a member of Military Families Speak Out and was a plaintiff in the anti-law suit against President Bush that was dismissed last month by the Massachusetts Supreme Court. She is the widow of a Viet Nam veteran and the mother of a Navy Reservist.

____________________

Now compare the Enabling Act of 09,01,1939 to the Patriot Act of 2001, http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c107:h.r.2975: and you will notice the simularities between them.

I see many striking siumularities between Nazi Germany and the Enabling Act of 1939 and the US Patriot acts 1 and 2 and this doesn't surprise me considering My dad fought in WW2. And between what I learned from him and reading about WW2 in history class it did not take me long to figure this out.

Also, you tell us liberals to open our minds, and yet you conservatives just call us hippies and tell us to get out of the country or shut up because you disagree only shows the lack of your open-mindedness.

In that case, what is the point of our troops fighting over there, supposedly for our freedom, when people like you immediately tell us to leave the country whenever we try to excercise those freedoms?? We have the right to free speech to voice our opinions and protest for what we believe is right. This same freedom of speech to voice your opinions and support what YOU believe is right applies to you also.

Other countries stripping away our freedom is the least of my worries. What worries me the most is when the government of my own country and people who live in this country stripping us of our rights.

Hitler took this right away from his own people. What makes it alright for you and the government you blindly follow to do the same to our own people?

If we all followed the herd and blindly agreed with everything our government said and did with thoughtless conformity, we'd be living in a DIC-TAT-OR-SHIP.

[mr mahs]

Originally posted by frenchbread

9/11 was allowed to attack because evidence was there, warnings were there, yet the administration left it happen, and as i'm sure you know i've already posted on that subject, but here we go again:

january 2001

The Bush Administration orders the FBI to "back off" investigations of two of Osama bin Laden's relatives (Abdullah and Omar) who were living in Falls Church, VA.

feb 13, 2001

UPI, while covering a trial of bin Laden's al-Qaeda follower, reports that the NSA has broken bin Laden's encryypted communications.

june 2001

German intelligence warns the CIA and Israel that terrorists are "planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture."

summer 2001

An iranian man phones US law enforcement to warn of an imminent attack on the WTC in the week of September 9th. German police confirm the calls.

summer 2001

Russian intelligence notifies the CIA that 25 terrorists pilots have been specifically training for suicide missions.

August 2001

The FBI arrests an Islamic militant linked to bin Laden in Boston. The suspect has been taking flying lessons. At the time of his arrest the man is in possession of technical information on Boeing aircraft and flight manuals.

august 2001

Vladimir Putin orders Russian intelligence to warn the US government "in the strongest possible terms" od imminent attacks on airports and government buildings.

august 11

US Navy Lt. Delmart "Mike" Vreeland, jailed in Toronto on US fraud charges and claiming to be with naval intelligence, writes list of possible terrorist targets, including the WTC, and seals it in an envelope which he gives to Canadian Authorities.

sept. 6th~7th, 2001

4,744 put options (a speculation that the stock will go down) are purchased on united air lines stock, as opposed to only 366 call options (speculation that the stock will go up). this is 285 times above normal. many of the ual puts are purchased through deutsche banc/alex. brown, a firm managed until 1998 by a.b. "buzzy" kongrad, now the third-ranking cia official.

sept. 10th, 2001

4,516 put options are puschased on american airlines, as compared to 748 call options. no other airlines show similar trading patterns.

sept. 11th, 2001

employess of odigo, inc. in israel, one of the world's largest instant-messaging companides, receive threat warnings of an imminent attack on the wtc less than two hours before the first plane hits. both the cia and mossad are notified.

sept. 11th, 2001

for 50 minutes, from 8:15am to 9:05am, though it's widely known within the FAA and the military that four planes have been simultaneously hijacked and taken off course, no fighters are scrambled. this violates 25 years of established procedure.

Why does the Left or Antibush crowd always blame the Economy or 911 on the current republican administration???

Here is what that disgrace we called the Commander and Chief and his side kick Al aka "I invented the Internet" and other liberals did which destroyed our military and CIA.

During their debacle of a presidency...

1996 Monsoor Ijaz offered Bin Laden on a Silver platter.. what happen? U guessed it a president concerned more by the Rain Forest then national Security REJECTED him.. If that's not dropping the ball I don't know what is..

Or..

"

In the 90's Clinton-Gore instituted a series of so called reforms that tied the hands of U.S intelligence agencies engaged in keeping and recruiting foreign spies, dispite the crucial importance of human intel... Democrats in Congrees eliminated 60% of informants in the middle east..and countless other mistakes liberals have done over the years.. To the left they would rather spend the money that we allocate for the military on protected gays rights in the military... DISGRACE...

-

[cintron]

normalnoises, if you wish to say something, try not to hide behind the words of others. discuss with your own words, if you have any to contribute.

otherwise, stop being a fucking obnoxious bastard and posting articles that are longer than War and Peace.

[kramadas]

Originally posted by mr mahs

Why does the Left or Antibush crowd always blame the Economy or 911 on the current republican administration???

Here is what that disgrace we called the Commander and Chief and his side kick Al aka "I invented the Internet" and other liberals did which destroyed our military and CIA.

During their debacle of a presidency...

1996 Monsoor Ijaz offered Bin Laden on a Silver platter.. what happen? U guessed it a president concerned more by the Rain Forest then national Security REJECTED him.. If that's not dropping the ball I don't know what is..

Or..

"

In the 90's Clinton-Gore instituted a series of so called reforms that tied the hands of U.S intelligence agencies engaged in keeping and recruiting foreign spies, dispite the crucial importance of human intel... Democrats in Congrees eliminated 60% of informants in the middle east..and countless other mistakes liberals have done over the years.. To the left they would rather spend the money that we allocate for the military on protected gays rights in the military... DISGRACE...

-

And why is it the right, pro-Bush crowd always implies that saving rain-forests is a bad thing?? This is not the first time I've heard this kind of example "saving rainforests instead of so-and-so". Do you even realize the impact destroying rainforests has on world climate??? We're all so worried about terrorists, and "national security" that what'll actually kill us in the end is global warming!!!

BTW, do you support drilling in the Alaskan wilderness for oil?

Both parties have made many mistakes - its no good pointing fingers and saying one party made more mistakes than the other.

And I'm sure both parties had intelligence info that we're not privy to, that they based their decisions on - not saying thats justification, just saying things are never as simple as they appear.

[cintron]

Originally posted by raver_mania

And why is it the right, pro-Bush crowd always implies that saving rain-forests is a bad thing?? This is not the first time I've heard this kind of example "saving rainforests instead of so-and-so". Do you even realize the impact destroying rainforests has on world climate??? We're all so worried about terrorists, and "national security" that what'll actually kill us in the end is global warming!!!

BTW, do you support drilling in the Alaskan wilderness for oil?

well, if i had a choice between spending a lil cash to save some trees or spending some cash to prevent an American airlines flight from crashing into a building, sorry to say but i'd drop the cash on preventing the flight from crashing into the building.

In this day and age, with the threat of chem/bio or [with N. Korea's newfound adolescent sense of rebellion], nuclear weapons, i think "protecting the environment" might be best done by preventing these weapons from going off somewhere.

After all, WE are part of the environment, too.

and drilling in Alaska sux.

[kramadas]

Originally posted by cintron

well, if i had a choice between spending a lil cash to save some trees or spending some cash to prevent an American airlines flight from crashing into a building, sorry to say but i'd drop the cash on preventing the flight from crashing into the building.

In this day and age, with the threat of chem/bio or [with N. Korea's newfound adolescent sense of rebellion], nuclear weapons, i think "protecting the environment" might be best done by preventing these weapons from going off somewhere.

After all, WE are part of the environment, too.

and drilling in Alaska sux.

True, true, but, and I might be nit-picking here, it does not have to be saving the wilderness OR fighting terrorists, etc. These issues are not interchangeable, ie, one does not have to be done at the expense of the other.

I don't think any amount of suntan would be a long-term help once that ozone layer dissapears. I'm sure chem/bio weapons going off wouldn't help, but ignoring such environmental problems will only result in it creeping up on us , and biting us in the ass!

[starvingartist]

Originally posted by wideskies

that is the point: that political insight and knowledge can be and have been used for unjust and inhumane causes.

i am drawing a parallel between the way the social perception of war has been constructed (by the media, by the government, by the citiziens) in this country and the way it has been constructed in countries that had (in my opinion) terrible ideas about why and against whom war should be waged.

Ok, I agree that politics have been used for unjust and inhumane causes. But are you also saying that they have never been used for just and humane causes?

I disagree wholeheartedly with anyone who tries to draw a parallel with this country and Germany in WWII. To go along with your original point that parallel has been fed to you through the use of media and tools and those opinions you have read in papers, seen on tv etc. The point being it would be ridiculous to compare the media now and how it was years ago or how it is in other countries that do not even in theory have "freedom of the press". If this were true then this forum wouldnt exists, shows like the Daily show would be cancelled, and any talk of anti war sentiments would be illegal on print, tv, etc. I'm glad to say this is not the case. Do not get me wrong there is more to life, government, war, etc and it would be impossible to ever know the whole truth about anything. But please refrain from drawing any parallels to misconceptions brought by the media, when the same parallel you are making has been said, written, and printed, posted, and viewed on a number of different media. In a sense your argument itself proves there is no parallel.