Repeal the Patriot Act?

[igloo]

Repeal the Patriot Act?

Clifford D. May (archive)

January 30, 2004 | Print | Send

If you've seen The Godfather, Scarface or The Sopranos, you're familiar with the routine: Federal agents know who the crime bosses are, and what crimes are being committed. But the rules are strict, so there isn't much they can do about it.

We accept these restrictions when dealing with wiseguys involved in loan-sharking, prostitution, gambling - even drug dealing. But are you really willing to accept the same paradigm for terrorists? Is it okay if, say, the top New Jersey-based agent for Osama bin Laden waves to the FBI agents in their car outside his house - confident they can't touch him as he goes about his business?

In fact, those now opposing the Patriot Act are arguing not only for such limitations on law enforcement - they are arguing for far tighter restrictions.

The basic idea behind the Patriot Act is simple: Give those investigating terrorism the same tools already used by those going after mobsters and drug lords. The Patriot Act does not give the government more tools or allow laxer standards for investigations.

For example, it is true, as The New York Times complains, that sections of the Patriot Act “expand the government's power to conduct secret searches and wiretaps.†But does the Times really believe the government should not have the power to search the homes of terrorist suspects – as it has the power to search mobsters' homes?

Or is the fact that the FBI can search secretly that troubles the Times? If so, consider: How long would evidence – anthrax or rincin, for instance -- remain on a terrorist's premises if FBI agents were obligated to phone ahead to say they were dropping by with a search warrant? And don't be misled: Under the Patriot Act, a search warrant is required and must be granted by a federal judge. Is that really “a threat to civil liberties†or a “serious excess†as the Times says?

And as for wiretaps, Sen. Joseph Biden (D-DEL) has put it well: “The FBI could get a wiretap to investigate the Mafia, but they could not get one to investigate terrorists. To put it bluntly, that was crazy! What's good for the mob should be good for terrorists.â€

What about ordering libraries to hand over records? Again, the FBI can do that now to learn what their local drug dealers are reading. The Patriot Act enables the government to do the same to terrorist suspects – but first a federal judge must determine that the information is relevant to an investigation of international terrorism or foreign spying.

The Patriot Act also allows law enforcement agencies to share information with intelligence agencies. That was not permitted before the Patriot Act. The answer to the 9/11 intelligence question: “Why did no one connect the dots?†is this: It was forbidden for the FBI and the CIA to share their dots.

It's true, too, as the Times notes, that a federal judge “has just struck down, as unconstitutionally vague, the act's ban on giving advice and assistance to groups designated as foreign terrorist organizations.†That means that Congress should be less vague and more specific about what is to be banned. It doesn't mean – as the Times says – that the entire Patriot Act is “constitutionally suspect†or even that any such a ban would violate constitutional rights. How would you react if you saw Chris Mathews interviewing a biological weapons advisor to al Qaeda – who would say: “Chris, I have a constitutional right to advise any group I want about anything at all.†Would you say, “Yep, I'm sure that's the way Tom Jefferson would have wanted it�

Some people cannot grasp the difference between fighting gangsters and fighting terrorists. For those so challenged, here it is in a nutshell: Organized criminals are rational. They want to make money and they want to stay alive. By contrast, terrorists are not interested in getting rich, and suicide-terrorists look forward to their deaths -- so long as they have an opportunity, in the process, to murder you, your children and your neighbors.

Who would help them by repealing the Patriot Act? The American Civil Liberties Union, a handful of libertarian Republicans and, most likely, those Democrats who applauded when President Bush said in his State of the Union that the Patriot Act expires in 2005.

Others did not. For example, Sen. Biden has been clear and principled: “I stand by my support of the US Patriot Act,†he said not long ago. Much of the criticism against it, he added, “is both misinformed and overblown.â€

And Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) has said: “I have never had a single abuse of the Patriot Act reported me. My staff e-mailed the ACLU and asked them for instances of actual abuses. They e-mailed back and they had none.†Similarly, an investigation this month ((1/27/94)) by the Department of Justice's Inspector General – a Democrat appointed by President Clinton -- found exactly zero civil liberties abuses under the Patriot Act.

In America today, you accept a certain level of lawlessness. Are you willing to accept a similar level of terrorism? Since Sept. 11, 2001, we have had not a single successful terrorist attack on American soil. The Patriot Act is probably one of the reasons why. But if you want to test that proposition, The New York Times, the ACLU and many of the politicians seeking your vote in November have an offer they think you can't refuse.

Clifford D. May, a former New York Times foreign correspondent, is the president of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, a policy institute focusing on terrorism and a Townhall.com member group. This column first ran on the Scripps Howard News Service.

[igloo]

..

[xpyrate]

i dont see the point of the patriot act. if the current administration had used all the tools they had before the patriot act then 9/11 would never have happened. why sacrifice any freedoms if what was before was more than sufficient to fight terrorism? didnt you read 1984? did you get the point? I don't feel anymore safe now that big brother bush is watching me.

[babbo]

Originally posted by xpyrate

i dont see the point of the patriot act. if the current administration had used all the tools they had before the patriot act then 9/11 would never have happened. why sacrifice any freedoms if what was before was more than sufficient to fight terrorism? didnt you read 1984? did you get the point? I don't feel anymore safe now that big brother bush is watching me.

what are you sacrificing?? what are you hiding?? thats the questions

[xpyrate]

Originally posted by babbo

what are you sacrificing?? what are you hiding?? thats the questions

privacy ... for one and many other things ... check the link http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12126&c=207&Type=s

[babbo]

Originally posted by xpyrate

privacy ... for one and many other things ... check the link http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12126&c=207&Type=s [/QUI

Im not concerned-trade off is fine w/me

[igloo]

Originally posted by xpyrate

i dont see the point of the patriot act. if the current administration had used all the tools they had before the patriot act then 9/11 would never have happened. why sacrifice any freedoms if what was before was more than sufficient to fight terrorism? didnt you read 1984? did you get the point? I don't feel anymore safe now that big brother bush is watching me.

[mr mahs]

Originally posted by xpyrate

i dont see the point of the patriot act. if the current administration had used all the tools they had before the patriot act then 9/11 would never have happened. why sacrifice any freedoms if what was before was more than sufficient to fight terrorism? didnt you read 1984? did you get the point? I don't feel anymore safe now that big brother bush is watching me.

How is big brother Bush watching you?

[jamiroguy1]

Originally posted by mr mahs

How is big brother Bush watching you?

Here's how...

Meet big brother

[pattbateman]

dont do anything illegal asswipe, and you wont have to worry. enough of using "rights" to hidebehind because what ever it is you are doing is obviously illegal

its bullshit and you know it.

someone obviously does not want anyone to know what the fuck they are doing

[jamiroguy1]

Originally posted by pattbateman

dont do anything illegal asswipe, and you wont have to worry. enough of using "rights" to hidebehind because what ever it is you are doing is obviously illegal

its bullshit and you know it.

someone obviously does not want anyone to know what the fuck they are doing

Traditionally, if you don't do anything wrong then you don't have anything to worry about but now in the post september 11th days, US citizens lives are being scrutinized and rights are being abused so now you do have something to worry about without doing something illegal now.

[igloo]

Originally posted by jamiroguy1

Traditionally, if you don't do anything wrong then you don't have anything to worry about but now in the post september 11th days, US citizens lives are being scrutinized and rights are being abused so now you do have something to worry about without doing something illegal now.

Bullshit

[jamiroguy1]

Originally posted by igloo

Bullshit

So this means the the gov't isn't tracking and storing more of innocent people's data and thereby passing the privacy rights of millions of americans after 9/11? You're mistaken if you think they're not.

[mr mahs]

Originally posted by jamiroguy1

So this means the the gov't isn't tracking and storing more of innocent people's data and thereby passing the privacy rights of millions of americans after 9/11? You're mistaken if you think they're not.

And Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) has said: “I have never had a single abuse of the Patriot Act reported me. My staff e-mailed the ACLU and asked them for instances of actual abuses. They e-mailed back and they had none.” Similarly, an investigation this month ((1/27/94)) by the Department of Justice's Inspector General – a Democrat appointed by President Clinton -- found exactly zero civil liberties abuses under the Patriot Act.

Do you have an example?

[jamiroguy1]

Originally posted by mr mahs

And Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) has said: “I have never had a single abuse of the Patriot Act reported me. My staff e-mailed the ACLU and asked them for instances of actual abuses. They e-mailed back and they had none.” Similarly, an investigation this month ((1/27/94)) by the Department of Justice's Inspector General – a Democrat appointed by President Clinton -- found exactly zero civil liberties abuses under the Patriot Act.

Do you have an example?

Patriot Act report documents civil rights complaints The internal watchdog of the Justice Department has found 34 new credible civil rights and civil liberties violations under the anti-terrorism USA Patriot Act, according to a report released Monday.

CORRUPTION INVESTIGATION: LV FBI used anti-terrorism law

Show Us Your Money

The USA PATRIOT Act lets the feds spy on your finances. But does it help catch terrorists?

Sept. 11: A year later, online privacy and security still weak

[mr mahs]

1st. It's typical you would cite liberal sources for these incidents.

Taken from CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/07/21/justice.civil.liberties/index.html

The types of complaints within its jurisdiction, according to the report, included allegations of excessive force by Bureau of Prisons correctional officers, verbal abuse by prison staff, rude treatment by immigration and naturalization inspectors, unwarranted cell searches and illegal searches of personal residences and property.

Some of the allegations received during this period were:

• An inmate's allegation that during a physical examination a Bureau of Prisons physician told the inmate, "If I was in charge, I would execute every one of you ... because of the crimes you all did." According to the report, the physician treated other inmates "in a cruel and unprofessional manner." After an internal Bureau of Prisons investigation substantiated the allegation, the physician received a verbal reprimand.

• Allegations raised by about 20 inmates that a BOP correctional officer at an unnamed prison facility "engaged in abusive behavior toward inmates that included verbally abusing a Muslim inmate and ordering him to remove his shirt to shine (the guard's) shoes." The Bureau of Prisons' Office of Internal Affairs did an investigation of these allegations but did not interview the inmates making the complaints. After a Bureau of Prisons' witness confirmed the allegations and six inmates corroborated them, the correctional officer admitted verbally abusing the Muslim inmate. The Justice Department's Civil Rights Division declined to prosecute this case.

• Claims that an Immigration and Naturalization Service detention enforcement officer "held a loaded gun to an alien detainee's head and threatened the detainee while transferring him to another detention facility." An investigation is ongoing by the inspector general's staff.

These are Patriot Act violations?

[mr mahs]

2nd. The million dollar question is.....

What would YOU do to combat terrorism on our soil or are you like the rest of the appeasers who fail to realise the urgency?

[jamiroguy1]

Originally posted by mr mahs

1st. It's typical you would cite liberal sources for these incidents.

Taken from CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/07/21/justice.civil.liberties/index.html

The types of complaints within its jurisdiction, according to the report, included allegations of excessive force by Bureau of Prisons correctional officers, verbal abuse by prison staff, rude treatment by immigration and naturalization inspectors, unwarranted cell searches and illegal searches of personal residences and property.

Some of the allegations received during this period were:

• An inmate's allegation that during a physical examination a Bureau of Prisons physician told the inmate, "If I was in charge, I would execute every one of you ... because of the crimes you all did." According to the report, the physician treated other inmates "in a cruel and unprofessional manner." After an internal Bureau of Prisons investigation substantiated the allegation, the physician received a verbal reprimand.

• Allegations raised by about 20 inmates that a BOP correctional officer at an unnamed prison facility "engaged in abusive behavior toward inmates that included verbally abusing a Muslim inmate and ordering him to remove his shirt to shine (the guard's) shoes." The Bureau of Prisons' Office of Internal Affairs did an investigation of these allegations but did not interview the inmates making the complaints. After a Bureau of Prisons' witness confirmed the allegations and six inmates corroborated them, the correctional officer admitted verbally abusing the Muslim inmate. The Justice Department's Civil Rights Division declined to prosecute this case.

• Claims that an Immigration and Naturalization Service detention enforcement officer "held a loaded gun to an alien detainee's head and threatened the detainee while transferring him to another detention facility." An investigation is ongoing by the inspector general's staff.

These are Patriot Act violations?

Here's another quote you left out:

For the period of December 16 to June 15, 34 allegations were deemed credible and are being investigated by various officials within the department. Those 34 were among 1,073 complaints received during the period that suggested a Patriot Act-related civil rights or civil liberties connection

[jamiroguy1]

Originally posted by mr mahs

2nd. The million dollar question is.....

What would YOU do to combat terrorism on our soil or are you like the rest of the appeasers who fail to realise the urgency?

lol You asked me this before and I still have the same answer: Policy change

[xpyrate]

Originally posted by mr mahs

And Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) has said: “I have never had a single abuse of the Patriot Act reported me. My staff e-mailed the ACLU and asked them for instances of actual abuses. They e-mailed back and they had none.” Similarly, an investigation this month ((1/27/94)) by the Department of Justice's Inspector General – a Democrat appointed by President Clinton -- found exactly zero civil liberties abuses under the Patriot Act.

Do you have an example?

no, but that is irrelevent. the fact is if you were to read the link i posted it read "the FBI now has the power to access your most private medical records, your library records, and your student records... and can prevent anyone from telling you it was done." so if the FBI has the power to prevent anyone to know that they have read your records then how is anyone to give an example? think people think ... aside the three examples it gives in that little intro blurb they have the right to search your email ... true it is unlikely that the FBI would be interested in my email but i send and receive some personal stuff and i dont want some troll at the FBI reading that shit just for a gag. i'm sure you have to agree that you don't want people nosing around your private life.

posted by pattbateman

dont do anything illegal asswipe, and you wont have to worry. enough of using "rights" to hidebehind because what ever it is you are doing is obviously illegal

its bullshit and you know it.

someone obviously does not want anyone to know what the fuck they are doing

of course there has never ever been a case of an innocent person being accused or going to jail now has there?

[babbo]

Originally posted by xpyrate

no, but that is irrelevent. the fact is if you were to read the link i posted it read "the FBI now has the power to access your most private medical records, your library records, and your student records... and can prevent anyone from telling you it was done." so if the FBI has the power to prevent anyone to know that they have read your records then how is anyone to give an example? think people think ... aside the three examples it gives in that little intro blurb they have the right to search your email ... true it is unlikely that the FBI would be interested in my email but i send and receive some personal stuff and i dont want some troll at the FBI reading that shit just for a gag. i'm sure you have to agree that you don't want people nosing around your private life.

of course there has never ever been a case of an innocent person being accused or going to jail now has there?

doent bother/affect me who snoops around or not trade off is worth it to me

[marksimons]

First they came for the Jews

and I did not speak out

because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists

and I did not speak out

because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists

and I did not speak out

because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me

and there was no one left

to speak out for me.......

Martin Niemoller Protestant pastor and head of the anti-Nazi Confessing Church.

Arrested for 'malicious attacks against the state', he spent seven years in the Dachau and Sachsenhausen Released in 1945 by the Allies.

[babbo]

Originally posted by marksimons

First they came for the Jews

and I did not speak out

because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists

and I did not speak out

because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists

and I did not speak out

because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me

and there was no one left

to speak out for me.......

Martin Niemoller Protestant pastor and head of the anti-Nazi Confessing Church.

Arrested for 'malicious attacks against the state', he spent seven years in the Dachau and Sachsenhausen Released in 1945 by the Allies.

yea- thats an old one- doesnt apply

[marksimons]

why not?

an oldie but a goodie...

once you give up rights, they're often very hard to get back.

[mr mahs]

Originally posted by jamiroguy1

Here's another quote you left out:

For the period of December 16 to June 15, 34 allegations were deemed credible and are being investigated by various officials within the department. Those 34 were among 1,073 complaints received during the period that suggested a Patriot Act-related civil rights or civil liberties connection

1,073 out of 300 million?

You can draw a closer corelation between these people all having relapses of dellusional paranoia. 300 million in this country and you're discounting the benefits of the Patriot Act for a 1073 people making complaints? Are you kidding?

I bet there are more peole who have had Elvis sightings in this country.....