Zionism And Its Impact

[kramadas]

since the talk of Zionism came up in the other thread...

Zionism And Its Impact

by Ann M. Lesch

The Zionist movement has maintained a striking continuity in its aims and methods over the past century. From the start, the movement sought to achieve a Jewish majority in Palestine and to establish a Jewish state on as much of the LAND as possible. The methods included promoting mass Jewish immigration and acquiring tracts of land that would become the inalienable property of the Jewish people. This policy inevitably prevented the indigenous Arab residents from attaining their national goals and establishing a Palestinian state. It also necessitated displacing Palestinians from their lands and jobs when their presence conflicted with Zionist interests.

The Zionist movement—and subsequently the state of ISRAEL—failed to develop a positive approach to the Palestinian presence and aspirations. Although many Israelis recognized the moral dilemma posed by the Palestinians, the majority either tried to ignore the issue or to resolve it by force majeure. Thus, the Palestine problem festered and grew, instead of being resolved.

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rest of article here:

http://www.wrmea.com/html/focus.htm

[tribal]

besides not mentioning the fact the Palestinians were not known as a nationality nor as an identity before 1967, lets take a look at what Zionism really is, not a vague racist definition by Ms. Ann Lesch, whoever she may be

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Zionism/Zionism_Is_Not_Racism.html

In 1975, the UN General Assembly adopted a resolution slandering Zionism by equating it with racism. In his spirited response to the resolution, Israel's Ambassador to the UN, Chaim Herzog noted the irony of the timing, the vote coming exactly 37 years after Kristallnacht.

Zionism is the national liberation movement of the Jewish people, which holds that Jews, like any other nation, are entitled to a homeland.

History has demonstrated the need to ensure Jewish security through a national homeland. Zionism recognizes that Jewishness is defined by shared origin, religion, culture and history.

The realization of the Zionist dream is exemplified by more than four million Jews, from more than 100 countries, including dark-skinned Jews from Ethiopia, Yemen and India, who are Israeli citizens. Approximately 1,000,000 Muslim and Christian Arabs, Druze, Baha'is, Circassians and other ethnic groups also are represented in Israel's population.

Many Christians have traditionally supported the goals and ideals of Zionism. Israel's open and democratic character and its scrupulous protection of the religious and political rights of Christians and Muslims rebut the charge of exclusivity.

The Arab states define citizenship strictly by native parentage. It is almost impossible to become a naturalized citizen in many Arab states, especially Algeria, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. Several Arab nations have laws that facilitate the naturalization of foreign Arabs, with the specific exception of Palestinians. Jordan, on the other hand, instituted its own "law of return" in 1954, according citizenship to all former residents of Palestine, except for Jews.

The presence of thousands of black Jews in Israel is the best refutation of the calumny against Zionism. In a series of historic airlifts, labeled Moses (1984), Joshua (1985) and Solomon (1991), Israel rescued almost 42,000 members of the ancient Ethiopian Jewish community.

To single out Jewish self-determination for condemnation is itself a form of racism. "A world that closed its doors to Jews who sought escape from Hitler's ovens lacks the moral standing to complain about Israel's giving preference to Jews," wrote noted civil rights lawyer Alan Dershowitz.

When approached by a student who attacked Zionism, Martin Luther King responded: "When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You're talking anti-Semitism."

The 1975 UN resolution was part of the Soviet-Arab Cold War anti-Israel campaign. Almost all the former non-Arab supporters of the resolution have apologized and changed their positions. When the General Assembly voted to repeal the resolution in 1991, only some Arab and Muslim states, as well as Cuba, North Korea and Vietnam were opposed.

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[kramadas]

Then what exactly happened in the early 1900's when the first settlers tried to create a Jewish state where there were people already living there? Why do you think a lot of the ultra-religious in Israel right now criticize the government because they think its too secular (eg, all the non-Jews living in Israel)?

The reality of Zionism in the current day is different from the reality of it a 100 years ago.

yeah, sure there are many Arabs living in Israel. But how much more affluent are Jewish neighbourhoods than non-Jewish ones? How easy is it for a non-Jew to find housing or land in a Jewish area? How much more government spending goes toward Jewish neighbourhoods compared to non-jewish ones (in terms of per capita)?

[tribal]

who do you think has a better standard of living. An Israeli Arab or an Arab living in PA territories, Syria, or Egypt?

who has more rights, better access to healthcare, modern education and an opportunity to vote?

but yes, i know. israel is bad, zionism is bad, jews are bad. lets ignore the facts and reality, because israel is bad.

[mysterynyc]

Originally posted by tribal

who do you think has a better standard of living. An Israeli Arab or an Arab living in PA territories, Syria, or Egypt?

who has more rights, better access to healthcare, modern education and an opportunity to vote?

but yes, i know. israel is bad, zionism is bad, jews are bad. lets ignore the facts and reality, because israel is bad.

bro...don't even bother. it's clear this guy will hold his position(s) till death. it's pointless to even argue.

[kramadas]

Originally posted by tribal

who do you think has a better standard of living. An Israeli Arab or an Arab living in PA territories, Syria, or Egypt?

who has more rights, better access to healthcare, modern education and an opportunity to vote?

but yes, i know. israel is bad, zionism is bad, jews are bad. lets ignore the facts and reality, because israel is bad.

So, it doesn't matter that they're treated as second class citizens with less access to benefits? In essence, racial discrimination is OK since they're still doing better than some others?

You're skirting the issue man.

The fact is, though Zionism in its present state allows non-Jews to live in Israel, they are NOT treated equal to Jews.

[kramadas]

Originally posted by mysterynyc

bro...don't even bother. it's clear this guy will hold his position(s) till death. it's pointless to even argue.

its funny the same can be said about you guys.

[tribal]

hey dipshit, you can say the same thing about this country, or France for that matter. minorities do get treated differently than the majority, be it here, Israel, or Europe. thats the way it is.

it is YOU who is skirting the issue. the bedrock fact is that Israel is a democracy. Arabs and Jews can run for office and have a say in their government, unlike any of Israel's neighbors.

Arabs living in Israel have a vastly higher standard of living then their counterparts in Egypt, Syria, PA areas or Jordan. that is a fact. Arabs (Bedouins) serve in the Israeli army, and are proud to do their duty to the nation. You have the nerve to say shit about Israeli democracy when ALL of Israel's neighbors except perhaps for Jordan, are totalitarian autocratic regimes, run by the likes of Assad and Hezbollah. so dont skirt the issue, the FACT is that Arabs in Israel are living better and are treated better than anywhere else in the region.

[marksimons]

why assume democracy is better than anything else?

remember, HITLER WAS VOTED IN...

democracy can be manipulated, and there are different types of democracy.

also.

with regards to the arab nations that aren't democracies, who the fuck supports these dictators!? OUR LEADERS!

[igloo]

Originally posted by marksimons

why assume democracy is better than anything else?

remember, HITLER WAS VOTED IN...

democracy can be manipulated, and there are different types of democracy.

also.

with regards to the arab nations that aren't democracies, who the fuck supports these dictators!? OUR LEADERS!

jerkoff

[pattbateman]

you talk about hitler more then a fuckin hitler historian

whats the deal?????

[marksimons]

I am a trainee historian, it's the degree I'm doing.

specialist subject could well be hitler.

I am interested in the topic.

I've studied it for years now.

pretty sure I know more about nazi germany than anyone on this board. (might be wrong though, but just going on the evidence I've seen so far)

one day I'd like to write a book about it (as if there ain't enough already, but I think I've got a fresh take on thing, with the advantage of evidence that is now declassified and more extensive historical research, and the fact that the adage about the winner getting to write the history has been true for too long, and I think there are important elements that have been overlooked in most understanding of just how hitler did it)

it's vital for understanding the world now.

the second world war shaped modern europe.

it's interesting seeing how hitler came to power, and it wasn't in a bubble.

I've also, since I've been at university studied more of the centuries in the run up to world war two, as well as studying the world post WWII.

understanding how one of the most advanced nations in the world, one of the most intelligent and civilised could be hijacked by the Nazi party is fascinating, and so are the businesses and individuals behind it.

I'm also interested in politics and differing forms of government and voting systems, for there are many different types of democracy.

[kramadas]

Originally posted by tribal

hey dipshit, you can say the same thing about this country, or France for that matter. minorities do get treated differently than the majority, be it here, Israel, or Europe. thats the way it is.

it is YOU who is skirting the issue. the bedrock fact is that Israel is a democracy. Arabs and Jews can run for office and have a say in their government, unlike any of Israel's neighbors.

Arabs living in Israel have a vastly higher standard of living then their counterparts in Egypt, Syria, PA areas or Jordan. that is a fact. Arabs (Bedouins) serve in the Israeli army, and are proud to do their duty to the nation. You have the nerve to say shit about Israeli democracy when ALL of Israel's neighbors except perhaps for Jordan, are totalitarian autocratic regimes, run by the likes of Assad and Hezbollah. so dont skirt the issue, the FACT is that Arabs in Israel are living better and are treated better than anywhere else in the region.

As expected, such lack of original thought - shouldn't have expected anything better from the likes of you.

Zionism, by its very definition cannot co-exist with pure democracy. Unlike other countries, where immigrants can become American, or French, or whatever other nationality, one cannot just become a Jew(note I said Jew, not Israeli), hence clashing with the original definitions of Zionism. Thats why Israel has had to adapt - but there still exists a lot of discrimination against non-Jews that runs at a government level.

Discrimination exists in countries like the US and France, yes, but that is being fought at the government level. Whereas with Israel, the remnants of Zionist philosophy make the racism quite more pronounced, and not tackled nearly as fiercely as it should.

So, there is a big difference between Israel and other democracies. However, from what I'm hearing thats slowly changing - one can only hope for the best.

[pattbateman]

because you have NO life and google shit then copy and paste it does not make you a hitler historian

and being a historian you have to know ALL side of an argument of history

you seem the most onsided person on this board

[tribal]

Originally posted by raver_mania

Discrimination exists in countries like the US and France, yes, but that is being fought at the government level. Whereas with Israel, the remnants of Zionist philosophy make the racism quite more pronounced, and not tackled nearly as fiercely as it should.

So, there is a big difference between Israel and other democracies. However, from what I'm hearing thats slowly changing - one can only hope for the best.

have you ever been in Israel or lived there? answer me honestly.

[kramadas]

Originally posted by tribal

have you ever been in Israel or lived there? answer me honestly.

Nope, I get the facts from different sources as one cannot go to every single country in this world. These sources also might include ....um...my own girlfriend.

Let me ask you - have you ever been to or lived in Syria, Lebanon, or the OT? Or ever lived the life of a non-Jew in Israel?

[marksimons]

Originally posted by pattbateman

because you have NO life and google shit then copy and paste it does not make you a hitler historian

no, but studying nazi germany for two years and getting an A grade in history when I was 16, studying interwar europe for two more years until I was 18. Last semester, in the second year of my degree course in history, I studied international history until 1945 and also post war germany, how they delt with the previous regime and the wider politics. that might go someway to making me a historian.

I have used the internet for research as well as books reccomended by my lecturers here at university and I've also spent time finding books in the library. Naturally not all my time is spent studying history, I'm quite happy with my life, it seems quite exciting, I'm off to Taiwan on saturday, and I think that I'll have some time to reflect flying half way around the world to somewhere I've not been before, watching a good deal of it pass under me, new stuff. I've seen a few of the cities, deserts, farmlands, canyons and mountains of america, and of europe, time to broaden my horizons even more.

How many books written by holocaust survivors have you read? how many books on nazi german politicians and businessmen have you read? how much reading about the cold war have you done?

for the serious history I don't just google and paste, however for some of the more unexplored aspects of nazi germany, particuarly the high level foreign business links, the internet, for one or two sources from non-mainstream american writers has been valuble.

tell me bateman, what gives you such experience in world history and politics?

[babbo]

Originally posted by raver_mania

Then what exactly happened in the early 1900's when the first settlers tried to create a Jewish state where there were people already living there? Why do you think a lot of the ultra-religious in Israel right now criticize the government because they think its too secular (eg, all the non-Jews living in Israel)?

The reality of Zionism in the current day is different from the reality of it a 100 years ago.

yeah, sure there are many Arabs living in Israel. But how much more affluent are Jewish neighbourhoods than non-Jewish ones? How easy is it for a non-Jew to find housing or land in a Jewish area? How much more government spending goes toward Jewish neighbourhoods compared to non-jewish ones (in terms of per capita)?

in reverse- do you know the history of jews that lived in arab nations??

[g420]

Originally posted by tribal

it is YOU who is skirting the issue. .

This dickhead is know for skirting the issue....just refer to my post about there not being a palestine

[g420]

Originally posted by tribal

besides not mentioning the fact the Palestinians were not known as a nationality nor as an identity before 1967,

<---they are still not a nationality or an identity, if there was/is in fact a palestine asnwer the questions that were posed to you before that you clearly skirted around...

When was it founded and by whom?

What were its borders?

What was its capital?

What were its major cities?

What constituted the basis of its economy?

What was its form of government?

Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat?

Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?

What was the language of the country of Palestine?

What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine?

What was the name of its currency?

[kramadas]

Originally posted by babbo

in reverse- do you know the history of jews that lived in arab nations??

Let me throw that back at you - how many of those Arab nations claim to be democracies?

[kramadas]

Originally posted by g420

<---they are still not a nationality or an identity, if there was/is in fact a palestine asnwer the questions that were posed to you before that you clearly skirted around...

When was it founded and by whom?

What were its borders?

What was its capital?

What were its major cities?

What constituted the basis of its economy?

What was its form of government?

Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat?

Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?

What was the language of the country of Palestine?

What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine?

What was the name of its currency?

This my last post to your worthless ass - your previous posts have made it clear you have as much value for human life as a terrorist does. But, let me entertain you one last time with a set of questions - was there an Israel pre-1947?

When was it founded and by whom?

What were its borders?

What was its capital?

What were its major cities?

What constituted the basis of its economy?

What was its form of government?

Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat?

Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?

What was the language of the country of Palestine?

What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine?

[kramadas]

Originally posted by g420

This dickhead is know for skirting the issue....just refer to my post about there not being a palestine

maybe you should also refer back to the post where GFu20 is celebrating the deaths of tens of thousands of Iranian dead (due to the earthquake).

[pattbateman]

Originally posted by raver_mania

Let me ask you - have you ever been to or lived in Syria, Lebanon, or the OT? ?

ive lived in the OC is that close?!?!?!?!?

[kramadas]

Originally posted by pattbateman

ive lived in the OC is that close?!?!?!?!?

what the hell is the OC?