arabs shocked about prisoner abuse

[sobeton]

Christ, you're so dumb, its almost not even funny anymore!!!

I second that opinion!

[normalnoises]

After further review of Igloos' post, it is my judgement he still denies the US are torturing POWs in Iraq despite the photos which prove him wrong.

Igloo = IGLOST!!

[marksimons]

I think you'll find the most worrying thing about the torture is this:

This wasn't sporadic, heat of the moment, a one off.

This was, is, policy.

The CIA apparently instructed military officers to 'soften up' their prisoners for interrogation, and torture is the best way of softening people up.

this wasn't a few people bringing the reputation of the US army and government into disripute, this is symbolic of the way your country is run, what leaders, military and civilian, are willing to tolerate.

They are quite literally no better than saddam when it comes to their respect for the lives of ordinary Iraqi's it seems.

[igloo]

THE ATROCITIES THAT PASS IN SILENCE

By ARNOLD AHLERT

May 5, 2004 -- THREE days ago, a pregnant Israeli woman and her four young daughters were shot to death at point-blank range by two Palestinian murderers. Each child - ages 11, 9, 7 and 2 - received another bullet to the head, and the mother was shot again directly in the abdomen.

It is useful to remember this incident and compare the dead silence it has elicited from those same human-rights organizations, media outlets and America-bashers involved in the feeding frenzy accompanying the Abu Ghraib prison scandal. The disparity of outrage is quite revealing.

The feeding frenzy demonstrates that even those who hate America - and never miss a chance to express that hatred - expect us to adhere to a certain standard of decency. The dead silence demonstrates that no similar expectations apply to societies that produce baby killers and homicide bombers, or use women and children as "human shields" in combat.

Why? Because behind the "high-mindedness" of "universal" human rights is a hypocritical prejudice which allows certain cultures more "leeway" when it come to murder and mayhem.

The United States has expressed regret over the Abu Ghraib prison scandal - even as several Palestinian militant groups wanted credit for murdering a pregnant women and her four young daughters.

[igloo]

They are quite literally no better than saddam when it comes to their respect for the lives of ordinary Iraqi's it seems.

KILL YOURSELF you worthless, repugnant piece of shit.

[jamiroguy1]

The best way for the US government to end this scandal now is to admit to all wrong doing; open up all detention locations, including "gitmo" and in Afghanistan for international human rights organizations visa vi Red Cross; and change our policy of detention and torture. Easy enough.

[mrmatas2277]

This wasn't sporadic, heat of the moment, a one off.

This was, is, policy.

i strongly disagree...i dont think this is policy...and btw, the Brits arent too far behind the US for rough treatment of POWs either...

[marksimons]

like bush is going to admit that this was policy, does he even know it was policy, did anyone mention, 'by the way, you know you said there were no torture and rape rooms in iraq, erm, that was wrong sir, we've got a few here and there, just to soften up the prisoners for interrogation you realise sir'...

I doubt it.

worthless repugnant piece of shit?

I'm not the one making naked human pyramids out of prisoners, prisoners who for the most part have not been through anything resembling judicial process.

if you think this is a new policy for your country, think again, if you think this is the first time your nation has been lied like this, think again, if you going to try and make this the last time that America can be manipulated in such a way, then you better start thinking, and yor better start getting involved.

no amount of apologising, of saying this wasn't his fault, that this is not representative of the attitude of America's forces, well, for most people, it is. This was inevitable, perhaps not this in this exact way, but something like this was, it was obvious to me that the people planning this war would not be able to control it, and now, well now we've reached a point of no return.

The US should get out of Iraq as soon as possible, before anything else is irreparably fucked.

[mrmatas2277]

i dont know what else u want? the Gen. in charge of the prisons in Iraq has been relieved and they are going to investigate...all 6 soldiers are in the same mess as the General...2 homocides that occured in the prisons are being dealt with...i personally dont think ANY person that represents our military should act like this and should be dealt with in way as to send a message to ALL in our military, including officers...again, i dont believe this is POLICY, and if it WAS policy, it came from the General in charge of those prisons...and she is being dealt with...

[igloo]

worthless repugnant piece of shit?

QUOTE]

YES...and your posts have certainly confirmed this (at least the threads you don't hide from)

KILL YOURSELF...just one less useless, douchebag in the world

[igloo]

THE ATROCITIES THAT PASS IN SILENCE

By ARNOLD AHLERT

May 5, 2004 -- THREE days ago, a pregnant Israeli woman and her four young daughters were shot to death at point-blank range by two Palestinian murderers. Each child - ages 11, 9, 7 and 2 - received another bullet to the head, and the mother was shot again directly in the abdomen.

It is useful to remember this incident and compare the dead silence it has elicited from those same human-rights organizations, media outlets and America-bashers involved in the feeding frenzy accompanying the Abu Ghraib prison scandal. The disparity of outrage is quite revealing.

The feeding frenzy demonstrates that even those who hate America - and never miss a chance to express that hatred - expect us to adhere to a certain standard of decency. The dead silence demonstrates that no similar expectations apply to societies that produce baby killers and homicide bombers, or use women and children as "human shields" in combat.

Why? Because behind the "high-mindedness" of "universal" human rights is a hypocritical prejudice which allows certain cultures more "leeway" when it come to murder and mayhem.

The United States has expressed regret over the Abu Ghraib prison scandal - even as several Palestinian militant groups wanted credit for murdering a pregnant women and her four young daughters.

[igloo]

From the Frontlines: A Combat Soldier's View of the Iraq Prison Abuse Case

The National Center for Public Policy Research this week has posted online two letters received from a soldier, Spc. Joe Roche, who presently serving on the front lines in Iraq.

The first letter provides a glimpse of the attitude of rank-and-file combat soldiers to the news of abuse of Iraqi prisoners in Iraq.

Excerpts:

"I'm at a place right now where there are thousands of U.S. soldiers. I went to breakfast and dinner at the KBR dining hall here. It is huge, hundreds of soldiers gathered to eat. Around us are large-screen tvs, and yes, the news was mostly about the prison abuse. Everyone is so angry. I mean, angry! It is as if those soldiers hurt us more than the enemies here in Iraq have. I don't think that if that RPG last week had hit and killed us in my hummwv, there would have been any of the damage done to our cause here that those soldiers have done."

"As you know, we have done raids and captured some of the top terrorists in Baghdad over the past months. My sister has some dramatic pictures of at least one raid. In all of those, we handled the enemy w/ respect. Our big bosses always pressed us on the Geneva Convention rules before raids, and we have taken many classes on ROEs (rules of engagement) and on the proper treatment of prisoners. There are rosters w/ all our names on them for these classes because dealing w/ prisoners is major concern of our leadership. My battalion has caught car bombers, weapons' smugglers, and those laying IEDs to kill us. We've even captured in raids those who fired mortars at our base on Baghdad Island. And EVERY TIME, we treated them w/ respect and took care to give them full medical treatment, food and clothing."

"Let me recount to you a story One day [two American soldiers] were hit by an IED in a hummwv... They got the one soldier out who was badly injured, but the fire was so bad that they couldn't get his friend out. They don't know if he was alive as he burned, but they had to watch. Now, that street that this happened on was one where they had built schools, improved much infrastructure, many many projects to make it a better and safer place. ...When the IED blew, across the street were some of those very same neighborhood people cheering. They cheered as our fellow American burned and the other one was dragged out. Now, these are tankers, and they have big BIG guns, and all were ready to fire. The soldiers, all of them seeing the tragedy of the attack, and seeing the sick group cheering across the street, they all held their composure. No one fired a shot, no one did anything inappropriate. They did exactly as they were trained."

The second gives an idea of the response of soldiers to "care packages" -- gifts of snacks, toiletry supplies and leisure items such as books and DVDs -- sent by Americans to troops serving in combat abroad.

An excerpt:

"...One of the most inspiring and important things to us has been the incredible arrival of care packages from people all over the country. It is overwhelming."

The text of the first letter can be accessed at http://www.nationalcenter.org/2004_05_01_BlogArchive.html#108373189457257523 online; the second at http://www.nationalcenter.org/2004_05_01_BlogArchive.html#10836356378620677 online.

The letters' author, Spc. Joe Roche, serves with the 16th Engineering Battalion of the 1st Armored Division, which is part of a quick deployment force tasked with dealing with sudden eruptions by enemy forces within Iraq.

[igloo]

Regardless of our disgust and disappointment, this was no My Lai. Nor was it Saddam Hussein's Abu Ghraib, where prisoners were brutally tortured, raped and murdered. Where the armies of North Vietnam and Iraq were rewarded for committing atrocities, American men and women will be punished.

A few bad apples, tens of thousands of good men and women

Kathleen Parker (archive)

May 5, 2004 | Print | Send

Shock and awe are back, this time in the images of U.S. soldiers humiliating Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison.

The pictures, broadcast on CBS' "60 Minutes II" and now reprinted in newspapers around the world, are America's worst nightmare. We who have positioned ourselves as the sane solution to an uncivilized world - standard bearers of human decency and fairness - now can be viewed as the infidels many already believed we were.

Islamist recruiters can pack up their cameras and take early retirement thanks to a few bad actors who have provided all the images needed to promote anti-American hatred, while putting the lives of their military kin at greater risk.

No one feels more betrayed than Americans who have tried to hold steady during an excruciating period of second-guessing and rising death tolls. Except, perhaps, for the American soldiers in Iraq who daily risk their lives while trying to perform professionally.

I heard from one such soldier a few days ago. I don't usually like to share my precious real estate with others, mucking up my prose with someone else's words, but this particular letter comes at a time when Americans need to hear from a grown-up on the ground in Iraq. Today I'm going to let him do most of the talking.

Meet Sergeant First Class Charles M. Grist, an Orlando native and member of the Altamonte Springs Police Department, who is the NCOIC (non-commissioned officer-in-charge) of the Protective Service Detail for Gen. Charles Davidson of the 350th Civil Affairs Command in Baghdad. Translated, he's the military equivalent of the Secret Service whose job is to protect the general.

No kid at 55, Grist is also an Army Ranger who served in Vietnam with the First Cavalry Division as a rifle platoon leader (1970-71). He is both outraged by the images that left most Americans cringing, and he is worried. Mostly, he's worried that the behavior of a few will taint America's image and that some, even back home, will "My Lai" the incident into a larger blamefest.

"It reminds me of my service in Vietnam," writes Grist. "After the My Lai massacre, the peace activists and others began referring to all veterans of that war as 'murderers' and 'baby killers.' At first, it caused fistfights; later we just shook our heads at the stupidity of the people insulting us. Another such transfer of blame cannot happen to this generation of warriors."

While the effect of the prison images is likely to further erode our credibility in the Arab-Muslim world, at least temporarily, and potentially make Iraq even more volatile, the madness at Abu Ghraib was confined to a few and doesn't accurately characterize the U.S. military.

Regardless of our disgust and disappointment, this was no My Lai. Nor was it Saddam Hussein's Abu Ghraib, where prisoners were brutally tortured, raped and murdered. Where the armies of North Vietnam and Iraq were rewarded for committing atrocities, American men and women will be punished.

So far six (all officers and noncommissioned officers) have received severe administrative reprimands; a seventh officer received a more lenient reprimand; another six U.S. military police face possible criminal charges. Such is the beauty of law among the lawless.

And such, Grist hopes, will be the message telegraphed to the world. In the meantime, he urges resolve among his countrymen, and especially among America's leaders. Again, he remembers the lessons of Vietnam, a war lost politically rather than militarily.

"From my service in Vietnam as a young lieutenant to my experience in Iraq as a somewhat crusty old sergeant, I must ask one thing of our civilian leaders: If you are not going to win, do not send us to war. If you do send us to war, then give us everything we need, not only to win, but to finish the job."

Grist is equally passionate about U.S. commitment to the Iraqi people.

"I know many who risk death every day just by working for the Coalition, but who, like the brave patriots of another nation long ago, put their lives on the line for their country. We cannot betray or abandon these brave people."

And finally, Grist breaks our hearts with this: "Either way, I can promise America your sons and daughters, your brothers and sisters, your husbands and wives, your fathers and mothers and, yes, even those of us who are grandparents, will endeavor to serve America with professionalism and honor."

No translation needed.

[kramadas]

THE ATROCITIES THAT PASS IN SILENCE

By ARNOLD AHLERT

May 5, 2004 -- THREE days ago, a pregnant Israeli woman and her four young daughters were shot to death at point-blank range by two Palestinian murderers. Each child - ages 11, 9, 7 and 2 - received another bullet to the head, and the mother was shot again directly in the abdomen.

It is useful to remember this incident and compare the dead silence it has elicited from those same human-rights organizations, media outlets and America-bashers involved in the feeding frenzy accompanying the Abu Ghraib prison scandal. The disparity of outrage is quite revealing.

The feeding frenzy demonstrates that even those who hate America - and never miss a chance to express that hatred - expect us to adhere to a certain standard of decency. The dead silence demonstrates that no similar expectations apply to societies that produce baby killers and homicide bombers, or use women and children as "human shields" in combat.

Why? Because behind the "high-mindedness" of "universal" human rights is a hypocritical prejudice which allows certain cultures more "leeway" when it come to murder and mayhem.

The United States has expressed regret over the Abu Ghraib prison scandal - even as several Palestinian militant groups wanted credit for murdering a pregnant women and her four young daughters.

As atrocious as that incident was, she's a settler, fighting for a cause (the expansion and keep of settlements) thats a DIRECT reason for many of the Palestinian's sufferings, and a huge sticking point in the peace process. She should not have been there, and not have been going to a protest against the withdrawl plan.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, my pity and compassion for settlers fall faaaar below that what I feel for normal Israelis.

[trigger55]

Also keep in mind guys that there's a big difference between knowing and seeing these things. The arabs and us already knew these prisoners weren't exactly in the best situation, its not like they're going to be living luxuriously. No one should be surprised if a terrorist is tortured for more information, it happens often. The problem is, SEEING all these pictures... now everyone has a real mental image of whats going on, and this of course angers people. If they're going to torture a terrorist for more information, don't fuckin take pictures of it and smile on camera, just get your information, relay it to your captain, and then shut the fuck up about it. Stay away from innocent women while you're at it too. I'm glad that these idiots are going to jail, but unfortunately the damage has been done and now they've threatened the lives of every single one of their fellow soldiers, hopefully they'll be thinking about that while rotting in their jail cell. I hope people take note on how just a few soldiers stupid actions can change the course of the world.

[trigger55]

As atrocious as that incident was, she's a settler, fighting for a cause (the expansion and keep of settlements) thats a DIRECT reason for many of the Palestinian's sufferings, and a huge sticking point in the peace process. She should not have been there, and not have been going to a protest against the withdrawl plan.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, my pity and compassion for settlers fall faaaar below that what I feel for normal Israelis.

Exactly.. that was a horrible tragedy, but so is the fact that she took a palestinian families house away from them. I would be angry if I got kicked out of my home and had no where to go, I'd be angrier if me and everyone else was kicked out of the whole fuckin neighborhood, and who knows how angry I would be if my countries borders were being redrawn illegally and unethically, in addition to having a gigantic wall be built so I could never see it or set foot on the land that was once mine ever again. The situation there is too messed up, none of us know what they go through... I can't even begin to imagine the level of hatred they have for one another.

[igloo]

Remarkable how the so called "Pro-Palestinian" crowd come up with their justifications....

[igloo]

...(the expansion and keep of settlements) thats a DIRECT reason for many of the Palestinian's sufferings, and a huge sticking point in the peace process. .

Yeah, that's it!!! How simple!!!! Those fucking Israeli's and their settlements and the "DIRECT" reason for Palestinians suffering and why there is no peace process....

Raver--ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME????????????

To use a line from another post:

Perhaps someday the term pro-Palestinian will be redefined to include those who would urge Palestinians to seek compromise and peaceful co-existence with their neighbors, build a real economy, and discourage their children from suicide, murder and mutilation.

[trigger55]

its not about justification, its about putting the blame on both sides rather than just pointing the finger towards one or the other.

[nocfgs]

I say we drop a bomb.

[marksimons]

"WASHINGTON ? An Army Reserve general whose soldiers were photographed as they abused Iraqi prisoners said Saturday that she knew nothing about the abuse until weeks after it occurred and that she was "sickened" by the pictures. She said the prison cellblock where the abuse occurred was under the tight control of Army military intelligence officers who may have encouraged the abuse.

"The suggestion by Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski that the reservists acted at the behest of military intelligence officers appears largely supported in a still-classified Army report on prison conditions in Iraq that documented many of the worst abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison, west of Baghdad, including the sexual humiliation of prisoners."

Anyone who knows anything about interrogation knows that interrogators like to have prisoners 'softened' up.

read the rest of that article here: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0502-03.htm

[kramadas]

Yeah, that's it!!! How simple!!!! Those fucking Israeli's and their settlements and the "DIRECT" reason for Palestinians suffering and why there is no peace process....

Raver--ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME????????????

To use a line from another post:

Perhaps someday the term pro-Palestinian will be redefined to include those who would urge Palestinians to seek compromise and peaceful co-existence with their neighbors, build a real economy, and discourage their children from suicide, murder and mutilation.

So, do you think the settlements are a problem or not?

LIke I said its not the ONLY problem, but its still a pretty damn big reason, one of the biggest reasons, for the whole mess. If they're going to do what was done in SOuth Africa during the apartheid era, then be prepared for the repercussions.

Did you read the article I posted yesterday about how government money was being funneled toward constructions of illegal settlements.

I'm not necessarily "pro-Palestinian", just not "anti-Palestinian". And I'm not "anti-Israel" either...coz being anti-anything is not solving the problem (as both sides should realize, but, hey, who am I, right).

[howardstone]

exactly, all these pieces of shit did on 9/11 & right after, besides run around the streets of paterson nj & detroit & give out candy & celebrate & have their ugly toothless women smile for the cameras, was cry about "don't discriminate against us"...not once any of these moderate clerics speak up against terrorism...and for all the arab-sympothizing PC faggots who are gonna come on here & say not all arabs are supporters of terrorism, save your bullshit cause I'm not buying any of it ....fuck all them & fuck you too if you feel for them

[sobeton]

The best way for the US government to end this scandal now is to admit to all wrong doing; open up all detention locations, including "gitmo" and in Afghanistan for international human rights organizations visa vi Red Cross; and change our policy of detention and torture. Easy enough.

[igloo]

So, do you think the settlements are a problem or not?

LIke I said its not the ONLY problem, but its still a pretty damn big reason, one of the biggest reasons, for the whole mess. If they're going to do what was done in SOuth Africa during the apartheid era, then be prepared for the repercussions.

Did you read the article I posted yesterday about how government money was being funneled toward constructions of illegal settlements.

I'm not necessarily "pro-Palestinian", just not "anti-Palestinian". And I'm not "anti-Israel" either...coz being anti-anything is not solving the problem (as both sides should realize, but, hey, who am I, right).

I think you already know my position on settlements, as I have stated before they are a issue...

BUT to say they are DIRECTLY impeding the peace process and the reasons why Palestinians are suffering is being "pro-palestinian" in the most naive way...and that is what you said..

Anyway, you and I always go round and round on this issue(s)....but in my view, if there were zero settlements, there would still be Arafat,Hamas, Iran, Hezbelloh, ect.....and as long as they exist and operate, there will never be peace, and the ordinary palestinian will continue to suffer.....That is what directly impedes peace and prosperity for both sides