kfitz73 Posted November 17 Report Share Posted November 17 if clemens or any other older pitchers gained 3-4 mph on their fastball then i would say maybeSuppose that instead of gaining 3-4 mph on your fastball, you just never lost a thing on it. Even when when you're 42 and most would have lost a lot by that age?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtk4 Posted November 17 Report Share Posted November 17 clemens has lost some off his fastball but he throws a better sinker now.randy has not lost shit, percival has not lost shit. I think pitching is different with the right mechanics you can keep most of your top speed, what happenes is your arm tires quicker so you can not throw the heat as much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfitz73 Posted November 17 Report Share Posted November 17 Clemens still can throw 97-98... Just not as consistantly as when he was younger... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainpec Posted November 17 Report Share Posted November 17 Not all steroid are for bulking... As for pitchers with muscular physiques..ClemensBeckettSchillingKerry WoodI'm not saying theys guys are using. Just that they are big, strong guys that overpower hitters. Much like hitting, pitching is an art. Sheer power isn't gonna do it alone...Those guys were all naturally born with an arm...Clemens and Shilling spend lots of the time in the gym, but it's not to put on muscle. It's to keep in excellent shape - they are naturally "big" guys. I wouldn't say pound for pound clemens has near a body of Bonds. Bartolo is big and throws hard. And the reason for Clemen's consistency lately is his training regime... at an older age you can compete with young guns if you stay in shape and train hard... something Patrick Ewing never did and that's why I now hate him. His body always looked like shit... even when he was 30. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfitz73 Posted November 17 Report Share Posted November 17 I'm just playing devils advocate... We all know there is steroids in baseball and I'm positive pitchers are a part of it too. Obviously not on the same scale but can you honestly tell me there are no pitchers juicing?? There aren't any in the spotlight like Bonds, Giambi, etc but to think that there isn't one MLB pitcher using is a little niave imo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtk4 Posted November 18 Report Share Posted November 18 i believe they do but i do not think it is the superstar pitchers, while the superstar hitters probably are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majinbuu Posted November 18 Report Share Posted November 18 best player ever...steroids or not... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfitz73 Posted November 18 Report Share Posted November 18 The Bonds of the early 90's was a great player but they didn't fear him like they do today. They actually pitched to him back then. If he's juicing he would lose a lot in my eyes because all of his mind blowing stats stem from the fact that most teams just flat out refuse to pitch to him. That comes from him being able to to deposit a pitch 500 feet into the bay which he couldn't do 10 years ago. The roids don't help hand / eye coordination, but I'm sure they prevent his bat speed from slowing down like it does for every single major league player in history who's still playing at Barry's age. If he's not juicing, then god bless him... He would be the best player I ever saw... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainpec Posted November 18 Report Share Posted November 18 Question for all you guys... what defines a great hitter?Ability to get good stats across the board? Big rbi's? Making ever pitcher fear you?I seriously think Tony Gwynn is (should I say was) a better hitter than Bonds. Yes, he didn't hit for power and he didn't drive in runs... he just hit the ball... that's a hitter in my book.And there is no question on whether Bonds juiced or not. A normal man loses muscle every year around turning 30 (give or take a couple years). No way can he be as jacked in his 40's without his testosterone levels being off the wall... prohormones?... Hmmmn. I just can't carry his same value or almost any guy these days and compare them to the guys back in the day... those guys never had the luxury of the performance market available today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtk4 Posted November 18 Report Share Posted November 18 best player ever...steroids or not...he ould be the best player ever that cheated.ted williams is the best hitter ever. If he did not serve his country during the prime of his career bonds would be chasing his HR record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicman Posted November 18 Report Share Posted November 18 we all know MLBPA stance on steroid testing and like mentioned, his personal trainer arrested and giambi et all shrinking doesn't help. if MLBPA really wanted to do something they would allow drug testing and get it over and done with. but they dont. so that's proof enough for me that a lot of players out there are cheating and bonds happens to be a great player that is also cheating and his cheating along with other aspects (watered down pitching, smaller ball parks) have helped him get to where he today.i will never put him on the same level as a babe ruth nor a hank aron, at least until he is tested for drugs, but we will never know that. his word really doesnt carry any weight with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fkornre Posted November 18 Author Report Share Posted November 18 Question for all you guys... what defines a great hitter?Ability to get good stats across the board? Big rbi's? Making ever pitcher fear you?I seriously think Tony Gwynn is (should I say was) a better hitter than Bonds. Yes, he didn't hit for power and he didn't drive in runs... he just hit the ball... that's a hitter in my book.And there is no question on whether Bonds juiced or not. A normal man loses muscle every year around turning 30 (give or take a couple years). No way can he be as jacked in his 40's without his testosterone levels being off the wall... prohormones?... Hmmmn. I just can't carry his same value or almost any guy these days and compare them to the guys back in the day... those guys never had the luxury of the performance market available today.if ur talking pure stats in batting avg then ty cobb would be the best ever...if u want to include hr's, rbi's and the ability to make a pitcher fear you i would say bonds would fit that category...but so did ruth, williams and gehrig... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainpec Posted November 18 Report Share Posted November 18 I was just using Gwynn as a reference. I know there were better hitters than him (although he was great and never given as much spotlight as he deserved). Anyway, he is the best "averages" man that I have seen play the game and thats what I am going by. We can pull a hundred names to analyze... and not that Bonds has been blessed with great hitters in his lineup over the years, but Gwynn had practically no one in his lineups EVER to protect him/get him good pitches... with the exception of Co-RoidVP Caminiti.That's why I chose to use Gwynn over many other batters including Edgar M. who had much better lineups to work with... hence usually benefiting the batter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fkornre Posted November 18 Author Report Share Posted November 18 my bad...i always go for the answer...i am not good at telling when ppl are just using hypothetical situations...gwynn was nasty tho...i agree with ya... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majinbuu Posted November 18 Report Share Posted November 18 http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=1923567 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtk4 Posted November 18 Report Share Posted November 18 ted williams over all was even better then cobb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bxbomb Posted November 18 Report Share Posted November 18 ted williams has no head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fkornre Posted November 18 Author Report Share Posted November 18 ted williams over all was even better then cobb.i wasnt around to see with my own eyes either of them play...but #'s wise cobb has a better batting avg... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtk4 Posted November 18 Report Share Posted November 18 not by much .344 to .366but the 521 HR to 117 hr difference makes up for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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