howienewport Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 u dont even need that much man! theres always shitty little dive bars all over that u can pregame at if u desire to get sloshed.... I know you're not talking about Roxy and Eric's place man. I usually have a ton of cash left over in the morning, spread out through every pocket I can find. But I like to have extra cause someone always runs out of do-ray-me or something unexpected comes up ya know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariaj79 Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 I agree with you u should get your $$ back, but why do they have to over crowde the place to a point where u cant move or even dance? When is the fun in that? Also if u dont think $6 is alot for water you are fuckin crazy, a beer alone at avalon is $7 I have been to places where the water was between $2 and $4 and sometimes $5, and even that is alot. Also between you and MariaJ79, tell me one place that DT spun at where they raised the prices during the night? I been going out to DT parties for 7 years and this is the first time he advertised one price and I had to pay another. I am not talking about the bouncers and staff I am talking about the greedy bastards at the door that kept letting people in.How much did you expect to spend for the nite $40? lol. All the big clubs charge $5-6 per water big deal....maybe there's a buck difference who cares. Don't have money don't go to Crobar. Yeah it's messed up they charge $60 to get in, next time get online tickets. They are not the first club to charge 60, I paid that much before few years ago... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cynstam21 Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 i dont know why anyone is complaining about...we were gonna get VIP but they upped it from their regular $100 per person to $150...so we decided to geet Gen Admin...a great idea since you didnt need wristbands to get upstairs anyhow......inside, i didnt spend more than $50 and we did find our little spots to chill...what I wanna know is name another venue that charges less for water? i dont know of any...if you think that's too much than be ghetto and fill up your water in the bathroomMaria - you are absolutely right, SF theme parties were just as crowded however, they had a certain 'flow' whereas at Crobar, there really isnt any direction, it was more like a bunch of zombies walking around dumbfounded bumpin into each other...that was my only complaintI'm shocked that they are giving refunds since usually, when u order tickets online they say 'guarateed admission b4 1 am' ...so Kudos to Crobar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elevatedflow Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 I'm shocked that they are giving refunds since usually, when u order tickets online they say 'guarateed admission b4 1 am' ...so Kudos to CrobarSince NYPD felt the need to get in the mix, i believe that the company is legally bound to refund all tickets regardless of the circumstance and time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fouroneone Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 I have hated crobar since they opened. 50 foot ceilings, horrible sound, an all digital system, most expensive coat check and drinks in all of NYC, a cement dance floor, preference to bottles and models, and bitchy and rude staff. This isnt from one experience, this is from MANY.God, it just stands for EVERYTHING that i hate about NYC and it's club scene. It is part of the ruining of any good vibe or friendliness that was left in NYC, and the club itself is responsible for things like fights in line because it chose to market itself to that "tuff guy" crowd.Hopefully it shuts down or gets shut down soon, but i doubt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepspell Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 hmm i didnt know their phazon was all digital...thats news to methat explains why u cant hear jack up in the balcony <shrugs> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariaj79 Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 I have hated crobar since they opened. 50 foot ceilings, horrible sound, an all digital system, most expensive coat check and drinks in all of NYC, a cement dance floor, preference to bottles and models, and bitchy and rude staff. This isnt from one experience, this is from MANY.God, it just stands for EVERYTHING that i hate about NYC and it's club scene. It is part of the ruining of any good vibe or friendliness that was left in NYC, and the club itself is responsible for things like fights in line because it chose to market itself to that "tuff guy" crowd.Hopefully it shuts down or gets shut down soon, but i doubt it.well it must be you then b/c everytime I go there everyone that works there is super friendly to me...again dont like it find a new spot..go to spirit and see how nice and friendly the staff is there and how much it cost to have a good time in that shit whole...and I dont think crobar is getting shut down anytime soon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fouroneone Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 excellent debate going on here on dig vs. analougehttp://www.dtourism.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14070 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfitz73 Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 excellent debate going on here on dig vs. analougehttp://www.dtourism.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14070You can't view that site unless you're registered... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepspell Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 excellent debate going on here on dig vs. analougehttp://www.dtourism.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14070ive wanted to join that forum but i cant it wont let me ive been wanting to write more letters to danny but cant sign up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fouroneone Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 well it must be you then b/c everytime I go there everyone that works there is super friendly to me...again dont like it find a new spot..go to spirit and see how nice and friendly the staff is there and how much it cost to have a good time in that shit whole...and I dont think crobar is getting shut down anytime soon Well, i will agree to disagree with you. Since you referenced the SF theme parties in your last post, i will just go ahead and assume that you and I are on different planets musically.I am sure you love crobar, every time i go there it is packed with people that look like they are enjoying it, my point is that I dont. I am not trying to convert you into a crobar hater in any way shape or form.After partying in this city since 1996, I have found that i find the most fun not in places like Spirit as you suggested, but saving up money and going to hear my favorite dj's in other cities such as detroit, chicago, san fran, philly, etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfitz73 Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 ive wanted to join that forum but i cant it wont let me ive been wanting to write more letters to danny but cant sign up It sucks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fouroneone Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 DTourism.com > Be Yourself Digital will never be better than a proper Analog system!!! BigHaus Registered UserJoin Date: Jul 2002Location: brooklynPosts: 52 Digital will never be better than a proper Analog system!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROFILE: Sound Man Shorty – Audio Engineer – New York City/MontrealAn analog fan to the end, Sound Man Shorty is THE man to call when you are in search of first class sound systems. The project for which he is most famous is the sound system for club STEREO in Montreal. His sound resume is both extensive and impressive, and includes working on the sound at Twilo, Def Mix, Zanzibar and the El Dorado Bumpin’ Disco on Coney Island. BounceFM.Com is proud to present Shorty in his own words:HOW DID YOU GET YOUR NICK NAME? . . . in this business you meet tons of people so you need to have a name that can be easy to remember.WHAT DOES SOUND MAINTENANCE ENTAIL FOR THOSE THAT DON’T KNOW? Going thru a system every week or month checking tolerances cleaning everything from the turntables to all the gear in the racks just making sure all the gear is operating properly for the club so it holds up for a long time, I do offer this for clubs as well in case a club wants SBS to service their systems.ANALOG OR DIGITAL? Analog hands downWHY? Because Analog sounds right and its real, digital is a computers interpretation of what the sound track is supposed to be, and digital has not lived up to all its promises its all marketing and convenience. Digital in my opinion will never be right it will get better but never be better than a proper Analog system or recording.WHAT SEPARATES A GOOD FROM A GREAT SOUND SYSTEM? A good system will not hurt you, but a great system will touch you emotionally and make you forget about your everyday troubles and you will never want the night to end because what your experiencing is magical & sexual.http://www.bouncefm.com/modules.php...order=1&thold=0 BigHaus View Public Profile Send a private message to BigHaus Send email to BigHaus Find More Posts by BigHaus Add BigHaus to Your Buddy List 13 Mar-05, 09:27 AM #2 y163 Justine LaMancheJoin Date: Aug 2004Location: nycPosts: 157 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:Originally Posted by BigHausDigital in my opinion will never be right it will get better but never be better than a proper Analog system or recording. not better, but equivalent. not now, but sooner or later.__________________Gentlemen, you can't fight here. This is the war room. -Dr. Strangelove y163 View Public Profile Send a private message to y163 Find More Posts by y163 Add y163 to Your Buddy List 13 Mar-05, 07:47 PM #3 soundmanshorty Registered UserJoin Date: Apr 2002Location: new jerseyPosts: 144 BounceFM.com interview on my company --------------------------------------------------------------------------------http://www.bouncefm.com--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Last edited by soundmanshorty : 13 Mar-05 at 07:54 PM. soundmanshorty View Public Profile Send a private message to soundmanshorty Find More Posts by soundmanshorty Add soundmanshorty to Your Buddy List 13 Mar-05, 07:56 PM #4 Adam Freemer Senior MemberJoin Date: Jul 2001Location: The Twilight Zone: North JoiseyPosts: 807 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Yum So when we gonna see some of these in nyc?__________________How do you tell when you're out of invisible ink? -Carlin --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Last edited by Adam Freemer : 13 Mar-05 at 08:01 PM. Adam Freemer View Public Profile Send a private message to Adam Freemer Send email to Adam Freemer Visit Adam Freemer's homepage! Find More Posts by Adam Freemer Add Adam Freemer to Your Buddy List 13 Mar-05, 08:21 PM #5 StevJ Senior MemberJoin Date: Jul 2001Location: Paterson, NJ (home of Adeva & Tony Humphries)Posts: 256 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:Originally Posted by Adam FreemerYum So when we gonna see some of these in nyc? This speaker stack reminds me of the stacks they had at the original Sound Factory. Almost exactly the same. It's time to leave NYC behind and head out to Canada!!!Steve J. StevJ View Public Profile Send a private message to StevJ Send email to StevJ Visit StevJ's homepage! Find More Posts by StevJ Add StevJ to Your Buddy List 13 Mar-05, 10:08 PM #6 Ryan Hinkis Registered UserJoin Date: Feb 2003Location: ManhattanPosts: 103 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Shorty,I still want one of those in my apartment. How can we work that? . I think I could put sheets over the Bertha and make that my bed. I would then have the best home stereo system.__________________Ryan Hinkis View Public Profile Send a private message to Ryan Hinkis Send email to Ryan Hinkis Find More Posts by Ryan Hinkis Add Ryan Hinkis to Your Buddy List 13 Mar-05, 10:19 PM #7 Adam Freemer Senior MemberJoin Date: Jul 2001Location: The Twilight Zone: North JoiseyPosts: 807 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------hmmmm.... something looks familiar __________________How do you tell when you're out of invisible ink? -Carlin Adam Freemer View Public Profile Send a private message to Adam Freemer Send email to Adam Freemer Visit Adam Freemer's homepage! Find More Posts by Adam Freemer Add Adam Freemer to Your Buddy List Yesterday, 03:01 AM #8 Liam Registered UserJoin Date: Sep 2002Location: St.Julians, MALTAPosts: 293 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------nice interview Shorty i really always like your depth of knowledge about Soundsystems Liam View Public Profile Send email to Liam Find More Posts by Liam Add Liam to Your Buddy List Yesterday, 03:02 AM #9 Liam Registered UserJoin Date: Sep 2002Location: St.Julians, MALTAPosts: 293 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Digital can never beat Analogas Shorty said it will improve but thats about it Liam View Public Profile Send email to Liam Find More Posts by Liam Add Liam to Your Buddy List Yesterday, 08:25 AM #10 y163 Justine LaMancheJoin Date: Aug 2004Location: nycPosts: 157 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:Originally Posted by LiamDigital can never beat Analog as Shorty said it will improve but thats about it I am afraid you are lacking imagination.There is several reason why I believe digital will end up better than analog: (1) we sense sound so once we have perfectly defined how we sense it ; it will be a matter of time before we can create a perfect 'input' to match this. (2) at the rate of progress, in 50 years (or 100 whichever) we might have nanotechnology ready. that alone is just completely mind blowing and then we possibilities are basically infinite. (3) analog is set, digital will evolve.You cannot just say: 'it will never be better and that's it' and expect me to believe you. I want reasons why you believe it will _never_ (that's the keyword here) be better. I am all ready to change my mind, but I need to be conviced because right now it is obvious to me that il will happen sooner or later. peace. j.__________________Gentlemen, you can't fight here. This is the war room. -Dr. Strangelove --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Last edited by y163 : Yesterday at 08:33 AM. y163 View Public Profile Send a private message to y163 Find More Posts by y163 Add y163 to Your Buddy List Yesterday, 09:33 AM #11 StevJ Senior MemberJoin Date: Jul 2001Location: Paterson, NJ (home of Adeva & Tony Humphries)Posts: 256 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:Originally Posted by y163I am afraid you are lacking imagination.There is several reason why I believe digital will end up better than analog: (1) we sense sound so once we have perfectly defined how we sense it ; it will be a matter of time before we can create a perfect 'input' to match this. (2) at the rate of progress, in 50 years (or 100 whichever) we might have nanotechnology ready. that alone is just completely mind blowing and then we possibilities are basically infinite. (3) analog is set, digital will evolve.You cannot just say: 'it will never be better and that's it' and expect me to believe you. I want reasons why you believe it will _never_ (that's the keyword here) be better. I am all ready to change my mind, but I need to be conviced because right now it is obvious to me that il will happen sooner or later. peace. j. Here's one major reason you dont understand and will not understand until you have been in a place where it is a 100% analog system!MAJOR REASON: You were to YOUNG to have experienced the Paradise Garage/original Sound Factory, so all that you have experienced is not top notch. You are what I call the digital domain kids, where you believe technology has and will surpase the previous generations. You are the CDs, Laptop, Mp3's and all of the jargon that we have today! CD's never had or will have the omph that vinyl has. Just like a wav. file sounds ten times better than an Mp3, WMA or any other kind of media used for music on pcs. When we used to go to the Sound Factory we used to hear the bass two to three blocks away. The same for my friends who experienced the Paradise Garage. They would hear the bass from the train spot, which was about 3 blocks away from the Garage. After the Sound Factory closed I have yet to hear another club that pumped like that! Not even Twilo sounded like that! Not even with the new Phazon systems that are out there today sound like them.The only club that I know of that sounds anything close to what we used to have is system at ClubShelter. And yes I know that was the old Twilo system in there, but they have it completely configured differently. Out of curiosity, why didnt you direct your questions to Shorty???? As it is obvious that he would be the better one to answer your question!Steve J. StevJ View Public Profile Send a private message to StevJ Send email to StevJ Visit StevJ's homepage! Find More Posts by StevJ Add StevJ to Your Buddy List Yesterday, 09:51 AM #12 Adam Freemer Senior MemberJoin Date: Jul 2001Location: The Twilight Zone: North JoiseyPosts: 807 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------They still dig ditches with shovels.I guess that will go digital too. __________________How do you tell when you're out of invisible ink? -Carlin Adam Freemer View Public Profile Send a private message to Adam Freemer Send email to Adam Freemer Visit Adam Freemer's homepage! Find More Posts by Adam Freemer Add Adam Freemer to Your Buddy List Yesterday, 10:20 AM #13 y163 Justine LaMancheJoin Date: Aug 2004Location: nycPosts: 157 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:Originally Posted by StevJHere's one major reason you dont understand and will not understand until you have been in a place where it is a 100% analog system! I've been to Stereo who is dubbed the best analog sound system on earth today.Yeah, _today_ analog is better (10, 100 fold maybe) ; but to say it will _always_ be better, I don't buy it.__________________Gentlemen, you can't fight here. This is the war room. -Dr. Strangelove y163 View Public Profile Send a private message to y163 Find More Posts by y163 Add y163 to Your Buddy List Yesterday, 10:25 AM #14 rich4468 Senior MemberJoin Date: Jul 2001Location: nycPosts: 1,756 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:Originally Posted by StevJWhen we used to go to the Sound Factory we used to hear the bass two to three blocks away. The same for my friends who experienced the Paradise Garage. They would hear the bass from the train spot, which was about 3 blocks away from the Garage. After the Sound Factory closed I have yet to hear another club that pumped like that! Not even Twilo sounded like that! Not even with the new Phazon systems that are out there today sound like them. I do agree with you but you can't base your arguments on this... NYC is a different place these days... You can't even have the bass audible across the street much less 3 blocks away.One of the reasons that Vinyl got such a bad rap for their system was that they HAD to put in a TON of limiters for the bass ALONE to make sure that the sub bass frequencies didn't travel into other buildings. Even if you got the most amazing analog system in NYC you couldn't use it to it's full potential (at least without HUGE structural modifications in the building itself)...Now apparently Shorty does have a system debuting in the city where those structural modifications have been done so maybe we'll get to hear what he's all about... but you couldn't just drop that system into any room in the city, you'll get shut down for sure and fined out your ass for "quality of life" infractions.__________________rich4468 View Public Profile Send a private message to rich4468 Find More Posts by rich4468 Add rich4468 to Your Buddy List Yesterday, 10:27 AM #15 rich4468 Senior MemberJoin Date: Jul 2001Location: nycPosts: 1,756 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:Originally Posted by y163I've been to Stereo who is dubbed the best analog sound system on earth today.Yeah, _today_ analog is better (10, 100 fold maybe) ; but to say it will _always_ be better, I don't buy it. The only way that digital will be "better" than analog is when it moves away from the sample rate method and emulates the actual waveform. THEN it MAY approach the richness and depth of sound of analog.__________________rich4468 View Public Profile Send a private message to rich4468 Find More Posts by rich4468 Add rich4468 to Your Buddy List Yesterday, 10:46 AM #16 saintjohn Registered UserJoin Date: Jan 2004Location: FloridaPosts: 22 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:Originally Posted by y163There is several reason why I believe digital will end up better than analog: (1) we sense sound so once we have perfectly defined how we sense it ; it will be a matter of time before we can create a perfect 'input' to match this. Yes, we "sense" sound, but in the form of analog waves. Digital audio attempts to mimic those sound waves with a series of "sonic snapshots" - 44,100 per second in the case of commerical CDs. At relatively low sample rates, the effect is the audio equivalent of a child's animated flip book. The higher the rate, the more "natural" it seems, but it's still just an approximation of the real thing.Once upon a time, music was made with analog musicians playing analog instruments. Recordings of their performances were made with analog microphones and other analog gear and recorded onto analog tape. Those tapes were transferred to analog vinyl. That vinyl would be played back over analog sound systems. The entire process was pure analog.Today, musicians (if the word still applies) can compose a song on a digital computer or digital audio workstation using purely digital sounds (synthesized and/or sampled). The resulting track can be burned to a CD, and that CD must be played back on a digital CD deck. The deck's digital signal can be sent directly to a digital mixer, and that digital ouput can be sent directly to a digital processor (for EQ, crossover, delay, et cetera) and then directly to a digital amplifier. That's as digital as it can get. At that point, the amplifier's electrical output goes to the transducers, where it becomes analog sound (and heat, but that's another discussion).Either approach (or, more likely, some combination of the two) can yield impressive results, but "pure digital" audio isn't possible with analog sound waves. You could beam a digital audio signal directly to your brain using microwaves (yes, it's been done) to eliminate transducers and their inherent distortion, but I'm not sure the end result would be "better."Ultimately, our experience of reality is analog - a continuous experience, not a series of instants. Given a choice, I'll vote for a proper analog sound system every time. saintjohn View Public Profile Send a private message to saintjohn Find More Posts by saintjohn Add saintjohn to Your Buddy List Yesterday, 10:59 AM #17 y163 Justine LaMancheJoin Date: Aug 2004Location: nycPosts: 157 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------can't we reduce the digital steps so much as to make them 'invisible' to our senses anymore?isn't time itself suppose to be discrete?__________________Gentlemen, you can't fight here. This is the war room. -Dr. Strangelove --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Last edited by y163 : Yesterday at 11:04 AM. Reason: grammar y163 View Public Profile Send a private message to y163 Find More Posts by y163 Add y163 to Your Buddy List Yesterday, 01:29 PM #18 scottyj Registered UserJoin Date: Jun 2002Location: brooklyn nyPosts: 573 Ay yi yi! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:Originally Posted by y163can't we reduce the digital steps so much as to make them 'invisible' to our senses anymore?isn't time itself suppose to be discrete? You see, technology is great! It really is! The problem is technology cant be all things at all times! Digital -vs- Analog! Analog will always be an actual waveform! Digital will always be a computer chip emulation of the actual waveform, and thats what it is!Unfortunately, the conversion proccess used to recreate the waveform from binary code is still, some 16 years into the technology, NOT good enough! Maybe at some point Digital will be indistinguishable from analog audio, but not at this point in time! Conversely, with the change from vacuum tube to transitor era, beginning in the late 60,s, by the mid 70,s they had solid state audio working and sounding great! Some still preferred Vacuum tube sound, but SS had outdone tubes in ceratin areas! SS made, and makes better bass! Tubes are smoother sounding through the mids! But, the transistor only got better and better, and so on! With digital, they keep coming out with higher sample rates, and longer wordlengths, and yet, although digital audio is improved over the last ten years, it is still noticeably artificial sounding, and offensive through the mids!Can we hear the difference from digital audio to anaolg audio? To me its still as simple as play your fav track off CD, and then the same track off vinyl, and tell us what you hear, and which you prefer!Digital audio, even with top filght processors such as DEQX, or BSS-FDS-366 Compact Plus T, still does not sound natural! Nor does it have the depth, warmth, and harmonic richness of top flight analog audio!I play todays music on what some might consider outright antiques! Yet, people come into my place and cannot understand WHY my system sounds so good, so real, so right, like music! Or how I get so much from so little, after all, I do not have 75,000 watts of power, like some of todays systems, yet, it works and performs, no I will say OUTPERFORMS many things available today! Dont get me wrong, I love technology, I am a gear whore, and always want new things, and new technologies, but my ears tell me what sounds proper, ANALOG!Will Digital ever get to be indistinguishable from analog, let alone surpass analog? Well, we got 16 years invested thus far, I guess we will have our answer in another 16 years or so! In the meantime I am preparring for summer season, and getting the Eldorado Analog Monster ready to rock!Eldorado Auto Skooter 1216 Surf avbrooklyn NY 11224Opens 7 days a week, from April till Oct, till..........? You come and hear for yourself, you can tell me instead of me telling you! scottyj View Public Profile Send a private message to scottyj Send email to scottyj Find More Posts by scottyj Add scottyj to Your Buddy List Yesterday, 02:56 PM #19 Adam Freemer Senior MemberJoin Date: Jul 2001Location: The Twilight Zone: North JoiseyPosts: 807 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------The issue is the quality of equipment, "the hardware" and the depth of sampling and algorythms used to do the sampling. The other issue is digital processors have more flexibility then analog processors (infinite crossover slopes, etc) that sound engineers tend to use as an easier fix then the limitations on standard analog gear. By nature that can cause the sound to be artificial in essence because you're doing things with it in the digital domain that would never really be done with circuitry. (A 100db/octave crossover would be of such a high order with such complexity it would be difficult to produce with caps, coils and standard components)There are A/D converters that are used in high end production environments that if coupled with high oversampling rates would yield results that the human ear couldnt detect. They're used all the time in studios. That in conjunction with realistic crossover slopes and better algorythms could make digital processing much more life like. The problem is, you're not going to get these results with a box that costs $1k-$2k when just the highend studio A/D and D/A converters cost many times that alone. How else would you reproduce an analog waveform digitally if not by sampling though?Quote:Originally Posted by rich4468The only way that digital will be "better" than analog is when it moves away from the sample rate method and emulates the actual waveform. THEN it MAY approach the richness and depth of sound of analog. __________________How do you tell when you're out of invisible ink? -Carlin Adam Freemer View Public Profile Send a private message to Adam Freemer Send email to Adam Freemer Visit Adam Freemer's homepage! Find More Posts by Adam Freemer Add Adam Freemer to Your Buddy List Yesterday, 04:58 PM #20 Bashar Join Date: Mar 2003Location: White Plains, New YorkPosts: 685 External summing to make the digital crap sound good... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Analogue Wins again...Byline: BARRY RUDOLPHAfter amplification, summing and mixing are two of the oldest and most basic audio processes - going back to the early radio broadcast days when the announcer's microphone signal and the record player's output were combined for transmission. Summing and mixing have always been inseparable, interrelated processes: Control the individual signal levels (mix) and then combine and amplify them on a mix bus (sum). While summing and mixing audio signals have always required an audio mixing console, the recent and rapid adoption of digital audio workstations, with integrated digital summing and mixing facilities, has challenged the console's sole dominance - even its continued existence as the centerpiece in a modern recording studio.While the sonic arguments for and against mixing DAW productions (out of an external analog mixer vs. "mixing inside the box") continue, a new class of products has emerged in the form of small, analog summing-only boxes. Using an external summing unit divides the mixing process into digital mixing within the DAW and external analog summing.WHY SEPARATE SUMMING?A growing number of proponents of summing their DAW mixes in analog say they're much happier with the overall sound of their mixes. Claims of a "more open, clear and punchier sound" are common, with the main consensus that (given a high-quality summing unit) the mix sounds like it was done on a very expensive Neve, API or SSL analog console. The best of both digital and analog worlds, the rising popularity of this method is self-evident: The DAW's wonderful mix automation, plug-in processing and editing features allow for individual track level adjustments, muting, soloing and effect treatments, while external analog summing frees the DAW's CPU (and ancillary DSP chips) from the processing overhead required to perform internal digital summing.Another concomitant feature of external analog sum mixing is that the session sample rate is no longer critical when it comes to the final stereo mix master. If you want to leave all of your options open for future release formats (analog 2-track; 44.1, 48, 88.2 or 96 kHz; MO; SACD/DSD; DVD-A; or Blu-Ray) or just don't know what the final delivery format will be, you can work on your project at whatever sample rate you like and wait to output your mixes in whatever form is required. Furthermore, the mix audio, now at +4dB analog line-level, is fully accessible for additional euphonic processing without extra deleterious A/D, D/A or sample-rate conversions.SUMMING BOXES DEFINEDFor the purposes of this article, summing boxes are defined as stand-alone units that accept any number of audio outputs from a DAW's analog I/O and sum, or add, them together to create a stereo mix. For the most part, these summing units do not have individual input level controls, nor do they have effect sends, mute, solo buttons or other controls that would define them as line-level mixers. These are strictly summing blocks. Ideally, a summing unit is an inert box - as sonically transparent as possible and without mixing controls - so that the repeatability of your DAW mix is certain.SUMMING IN ACTIONWithin the DAW program, instead of assigning and mixing all channels (tracks) to the internal digital stereo mixing bus, each track(s) would be assigned to an individual analog output of the system's I/O unit or soundcard. These outputs would connect to the external summing unit's inputs, where they would each be electrically added together to build a stereo mix. In the case of large mixes with many tracks, stem mixing - a rigeur du jour in film and TV production - is used, in which groups of instruments are subgrouped and routed to pairs of stereo I/O outputs, although there are no technical reasons why a 72-channel or bigger summing box could not be used for large mixes.The following are brief descriptions of eight summing units on the market today. Models come in all price ranges and from the simplest to the most elaborate, each with unique feature sets to fit any audio chain and workflow method.THE BOXESBoutique Audio (www.boutiqueaudio.com) has taken over the Inward Connections line. Its summing unit is a 1U rackspace box featuring 16 differential balanced input channels, each with its own panpot. There are eight XLR connectors for the first eight channels and two DB25 connectors for inputs 1 through 16. The stereo bus master control has custom-wound Cinemag transformer outputs and 1/4-inch TRS insert points for outboard processing. A front panel switch toggles the inserted processing in/out. All amplifiers are discrete Class-A SPA690 amplifier blocks, and up to three units can be linked together for 48 total DAW channels. Frequency response is 1 Hz to 200 kHz, [+ or -]0.5 dB; THD @ 0.002%, 10 Hz to 20 kHz; signal-to-noise at unity gain is -110 dB; IMD is 0.005%; clip point is +26 dBm; and input impedance is over 10M ohms. The unit sells for $3,600 MSRP; a meter bridge is optional.One of the first companies to offer a dedicated summing unit, Dangerous Music (www.dangerousmusic.com) makes two models: the 2-Bus and 2-Bus LT. The 2-Bus LT is a 16x2 summing unit in a single rackspace. The LT takes in eight stereo pairs and automatically routes them to the left and right sides of its stereo bus. Eight mono buttons are provided to sum or "collapse" any individual pair down to mono - equally to the left and right buses. This convenient feature is for "forcing" normally center-panned audio tracks like kick and snare drums - coming in from DAW outputs 1 and 2 - to the center of the mix.Connecting the LT to your DAW is easy by using DB25 connector cables wired in standard Tascam DA-88 pin-out. The LT also has a pair of rear panel XLR jacks for linking multiple units for more than 16 inputs or for external stereo effect returns such as reverb to the LT's master bus. Full +4dBm XLR stereo output connectors are also provided to feed a monitor unit (such as the Dangerous Monitor) or your existing console's monitoring section. A second pair of +4dBm outputs feed your analog stereo mixdown machine. MSRP is $1,500.The Dangerous Music 2-Bus is a two-rackspace unit with all of the features of the LT but with slightly better performance specs and 16 separate XLR input connectors instead of two DB25 connectors. The XLR connectors make wiring up a normalled input patchbay for 16 insert effect paths an easy task. There are also +6dB boost buttons for each stereo stem to "jump" the level up of any stereo pair(s) over others when needed. Options include a stereo insert loop path on the output for outboard processing and the replacement of the +6 buttons with simple mute buttons. Frequency response is 1 Hz to 100 kHz, [+ or -]0.2 dB; THD is 0.005% in the audio band; IMD is measured at 0.005% IMD60 4:1; noise floor is at -81dBu total energy in the audio band; and max output level is +26 dBu.The 2-Bus features a premium, stepped stereo output attenuator custom-made by NASA-supplier Janco Corp. for completely repeatable stereo bus level setting. The stereo output bus has a 10dB range adjustable in 0.5dB steps. All of the Dangerous gear features Burr-Brown op amps and hermetically sealed Arrowmat relays with silver contacts to switch audio. The 2-Bus sells for $2,999 MSRP.InnerTUBE Audio (www.innertubeaudio.com) offers Sumthang, a tube-based 8-input stereo summing box that features custom-wound, nickel-core, transformer-balanced inputs and outputs; dual Sifam VU output meters; a stereo output volume control (or optional stepped attenuator); and the ability to cascade multiple units to handle additional input channels. Optional 8- and 16-channel expander units run from a single external power supply. It's interesting to note that like all of InnerTUBE's product line, Sumthang uses only octal tubes (8-pin tubes with ceramic, bakelite or phenolic bases holding the glass tube itself; in this case, two 12SL7s and two 12V6s), which is said to be better-sounding than glass-only tubes. List price is $2,500.The Commander from Nautilus Master Technology (www.nautiluspro.com) is a discrete Class-A design that sums 12 channels to stereo. Mastering-style stereo bus functions include a four-way assignable stereo insert for external analog mix bus processing, separate L/R mutes, a Mono button, VU meters and meter range control. Stretching our survey's definition between a simple summing unit and a line-level mixer, it has eight analog XLR/TRS inputs with pan and mute controls. There are also two dedicated stereo pair inputs that can be used for effects returns or for expanding up to 36 total channels with the upcoming Commander expansion units.__________________DJBASHAR.COM Bashar View Public Profile Send a private message to Bashar Send email to Bashar Visit Bashar's homepage! Find More Posts by Bashar Add Bashar to Your Buddy List Yesterday, 05:09 PM #21 Adam Freemer Senior MemberJoin Date: Jul 2001Location: The Twilight Zone: North JoiseyPosts: 807 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Even with that, prices are expensive. I mean an apogee A/D and then D/A on a simple 2 in 8 out crossover/digital processor would probably be $5k-$10k in just the converters, let alone hi-fi connections, manufacturing, etc... I'm sure someone must have something high end like this for the application. It just seems like BSS and all the other processor manufacturers arent making anything super high-end. Just with "its good enough" specs. I dont know the gear that well, but thats what it looks like to me IMHO.__________________How do you tell when you're out of invisible ink? -Carlin Adam Freemer View Public Profile Send a private message to Adam Freemer Send email to Adam Freemer Visit Adam Freemer's homepage! Find More Posts by Adam Freemer Add Adam Freemer to Your Buddy List Yesterday, 05:10 PM #22 rich4468 Senior MemberJoin Date: Jul 2001Location: nycPosts: 1,756 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:Originally Posted by Adam FreemerHow else would you reproduce an analog waveform digitally if not by sampling though? I don't know really... but the main issue w/ digital is that no matter how fast you sample there's always a tiny bit of data that goes unsampled... at least that's what I've taken from the reading I've done on the subject...How does analog magnetic tape work? It's not a wave form per se like a vinyl record but it is an analog reproduction method that is still used to this day in analog studios and reproduces sound in a matter similar to vinyl records (at least the high end ones do)...It seems to me that if a wave form can be recorded and stored in a primitive fashion like vinyl records and then reproduced on high end club systems, then there must be some way to digitally encode the wave form itself that doesn't involve slicing the sound up and microsampling it. In essence it means moving TOWARDS the theories behind the way that vinyl works, not away from it.__________________rich4468 View Public Profile Send a private message to rich4468 Find More Posts by rich4468 Add rich4468 to Your Buddy List Yesterday, 05:55 PM #23 Adam Freemer Senior MemberJoin Date: Jul 2001Location: The Twilight Zone: North JoiseyPosts: 807 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Digital means binary, meaning base 2. To perform mathematical operations on data it has to be in digital form or base 2. Storing information on a record or other means is not in this form. Its just recording a wave on a mechanical groove or other medium and reproducing it by amplification. ENIAC and the first supercomputers used in the 40's and 50's were actually base 10 to replicate the human base 10 ways of mathematics. The idea was quickly scrapped as designing transistors (the building blocks of all modern electronics) around a base 10 architecture was nearly impossible with any complexity. You have to convert to base 2 to operate on data. By definition a conversion is necessary. It will always be that way, its just a matter of making as high quality of an interpretation of that original wave as possible and being able to output a high quality signal as well.__________________How do you tell when you're out of invisible ink? -Carlin Adam Freemer View Public Profile Send a private message to Adam Freemer Send email to Adam Freemer Visit Adam Freemer's homepage! Find More Posts by Adam Freemer Add Adam Freemer to Your Buddy List Yesterday, 08:58 PM #24 Bashar Join Date: Mar 2003Location: White Plains, New YorkPosts: 685 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------sounds that you can hear feel and loveor a computer that can do thisIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIO IOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOIOto replicate the above. __________________DJBASHAR.COM Bashar View Public Profile Send a private message to Bashar Send email to Bashar Visit Bashar's homepage! Find More Posts by Bashar Add Bashar to Your Buddy List Yesterday, 11:06 PM #25 LhiannanShee Late Night Lux GirlJoin Date: Aug 2002Location: Sintra - PTPosts: 103 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Bashar, u said it all __________________The Underground Blossom's Music LhiannanShee View Public Profile Send a private message to LhiannanShee Send email to LhiannanShee Find More Posts by LhiannanShee Add LhiannanShee to Your Buddy List Page 1 of 2 1 2 > « Previous Thread | Next Thread » Quick Reply Message: Please click one of the Quick Reply icons in the posts above to activate Quick Reply. OptionsQuote message in reply? Thread Tools Show Printable Version Email this Page Subscribe to this Thread Display Modes Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode Search this Thread Advanced Search Rate This Thread You have already rated this thread Posting Rules You may post new threadsYou may post repliesYou may post attachmentsYou may edit your posts--------------------------------------------------------------------------------vB code is OnSmilies are On code is OnHTML code is On Forum Jump Please select one User Control Panel Private Messages Subscriptions Who's Online Search Forums Forums Home -------------------- Be Yourself Music Is The Answer No Glowsticks Baby, Do You Feel Me? Similar Threads Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post 3 new SBS analog systems in NYC soundmanshorty Be Yourself 8 23 Nov-04 09:26 AM I Wonder What My Analog System Is Worth? DANNY TENAGLIA Be Yourself 22 23 Aug-04 01:16 PM Analog Sound System in NYC JoshJay Be Yourself 21 20 Aug-04 09:35 AM remodling of Stereo montreal and faze 7 of stereo system upgrades soundmanshorty Be Yourself 12 03 Aug-04 11:49 PM Analog & Digital - A Primer Kerri Be Yourself 79 18 Jul-02 10:33 AM All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:07 PM.Contact Us - DTourism.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.7Copyright ©2000 - 2005, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. ©2001 - 2005, DTourism.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepspell Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 how so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariaj79 Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 Well honey, i will agree to disagree with you. Since you referenced the SF theme parties in your last post, i will just go ahead and assume that you and I are on different planets musically.I am sure you love crobar, every time i go there it is packed with people that look like they are enjoying it, my point is that I dont. I am not trying to convert you into a crobar hater in any way shape or form.After partying in this city since 1996, I have found that i find the most fun not in places like Spirit as you suggested, but saving up money and going to hear my favorite dj's in other cities such as detroit, chicago, san fran, philly, etc etc.I'm just gonna say this, if you hate it do not go there. I think that makes sense lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepspell Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 awesome discussion!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfitz73 Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 how so? For the most part, the board serves no purpose but to kiss Danny's ass... Sign up when they let you, you'll see what I mean... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cynstam21 Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 After partying in this city since 1996, I have found that i find the most fun not in places like Spirit as you suggested, but saving up money and going to hear my favorite dj's in other cities such as detroit, chicago, san fran, philly, etc etc.I'm goin to Chicago in April, do you feel the same way about the original Crobar?? I was hoping to check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariaj79 Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 For the most part, the board serves no purpose but to kiss Danny's ass... Sign up when they let you, you'll see what I mean...same with JP's site...if you mention other DJ's, try to promote other parties, say that JP sucks or when he used to spin in that shit hole spirit you couldn't even bash the club cuz that bitch would ban you...bunch of little kids kissing his ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fouroneone Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 I'm goin to Chicago in April, do you feel the same way about the original Crobar?? I was hoping to check it out.I have heard only wonderful things about the original crobar in chicago, and cant wait to check it out myself.Smartbar is a blast, def. check that out if you are in town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fouroneone Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 analouge will always be the best, but containing the bass is a great point brought up in that thread.Its a catch-22 that will plauge NYC clubs for a long time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backupqueen Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 They charge $60 because they're already beyond capacity and they still have a huge line of people outside waiting to get in. They're actually trying to discourage you from wanting to go.lol...yeah, they're doing it for our well-being not to make even more money out of us...lolplease! it's a known and shady tactic of clubs to do that. it's just really tired and i think they loose all credibility afterwards coming here and say "we're really about our customers"...they have nerve to make statement like this, overcharge us but don't insult our intelligence at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepspell Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 For the most part, the board serves no purpose but to kiss Danny's ass... Sign up when they let you, you'll see what I mean...does he post on there?? lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stompy Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 I have heard only wonderful things about the original crobar in chicago, and cant wait to check it out myself.Smartbar is a blast, def. check that out if you are in town.The original crobar is gone. It was all redone 2 years ago or so, and now is just a big room with tables on the side and on the top. It's still a cool place, but not what the old crobar used to be back when psycho and terri spun.Vision is another place worth checking out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepspell Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 isnt there a place called sound bar too?? heard that was good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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