The club legend is always right...

[Guest coach]

Remember also that running live bands is a much larger pain in the ass than running DJs.

And I really just don't see live music working for the afterhours crowd. Like Pod said, live music tends to be much more about the band than the dancing/mingling. I don't think the tweaked out afterhours set is really gonna give a fuck about a bunch of honkey whiners up on stage.

Dance clubs have been using DJs for 30-40 years. I just don't see that changing anytime soon. I do think that mixing it up will become more common and we will see more live acts, but no way the DJ is going away.

[Guest ICON]

i really wish someone would try this rock shit out for a while and see what happens. Kills me how you guys say that "SPICS" grew up on rock bands.... EVERYBODY GREW UP ON ROCK BANDS IN SOME FORM OR THE OTHER.. Hell, Ive been to GNR, Motley, Cinderella and many other concerts. I LOVED the music... I grew up on the music..... it doesnt mean that I want to party to rock music every night.

Personally, I hate bands and rock music in clubs.

[V. Barbarino]

1. no one ever said anything about after hours. No one in their right mind thinks bands will work in after hours.. But, how many after hours clubs are there in Miami? 2 and 1 is going out of business. Therefore no one ever bring up after hours on this thread again! idiots!

2. Pod, you are great at predicting what the beach wants, yet the beach has collapsed into 2 formats, hip hop and open format.

Can the beach sustain this scene with the same two formats which more and more they converge into one? I've told you in the north east the club scene has collapsed. NYC has 1 club left that plays house. If a city of 8 million and tourists can't pack the house clubs in up in the city, then why would it work here in Miami?

You have no answer, you have no prediction of where the market is going based on a racial excuse. I've laid out exactly why it will go to bands and I even provided examples. All you can say is the beach will remain hip hop and open format, because I know you aren't dumb enough to think edm is coming back.

[Guest pod]

Nevermind there is a huge capital investment for any club that wants to host rock bands or any live bands on a regular basis. You can do it the ghetto way by running it through the DJ system and piss off your patrons with horrible sound, or you can do it the right way and get a system installed that is capable of doing both at the outset.

In round figures, let's just say the price tag would approach a million easily.

Oh, and then you need a live sound engineer. A good one demands six figures. I don't know if any of you have ever worked a real live show before, but it's not easy getting everything together for a performance.

Oh, and let's not forget about having to re-do your lighting array as well. And possibly hiring a competent lighting designer. Cha-ching.

You could rent a system and hire an engineer on a per-gig basis, but that will get costly if you intend on doing live shit on a weekly basis.

[Guest coach]

No one said anything about after-hours? Really? Sorry, I wasn't reading.

Here's my predictions, 100% right, based on history. Clubs will come, clubs will go. Customers tastes will change. You can bank on that for at least the next 100 years.

[Guest Davenavarro10]

Pod I have to disagree with you man. I guarantee you that if Live or Pearl

Jam were booked to play a club like Mansion or Cameo, they would attract

quite a crowd. Pearl Jam played at Cameo years ago when they were first

starting out. I have a bootleg video of the show, and it was crazy. And

you have to remember that it was before they were established. Live

actually played at the Bar Room years ago (where Set now stands). It

was an amazing show. Like I said, it all depends on the acts. If the

clubowners take a risk and book good rock bands like Tool, R.H.C.P,

Live, Pearl Jam, Chris Cornell or The Strokes, the crowds will follow. I

bet even a crappy mainstream rock band like Nickelback could easily fill

up Mansion or Cameo.

[Guest coach]

I would agree that any of those would pack the place out. The problem is, do those clubs have enough space to make the cost of the show back? I don't know how much those bands would cost to book, but I would guess they aren't cheap. Then there is the technical cost of setting up for a live show. How many people would they have to be able to accommodate to break even?

[Guest talknightlife]

Like I said, it all depends on the acts. If the

clubowners take a risk and book good rock bands like Tool, R.H.C.P,

Live, Pearl Jam, Chris Cornell or The Strokes, the crowds will follow. I

bet even a crappy mainstream rock band like Nickelback could easily fill

up Mansion or Cameo.

You mean kind of like what Live Nation is doing with the Fillmore in Miami Beach? I saw Seal there recently for one of their first shows and the place was PACKED. That place is not too big and not too small, it's just the right size for the crowd to feed the stage with energy. Kid Rock should be interesting, and Fall Out Boy is soon too.

I am SO glad that Live Nation got that venue instead of Cirque du Soleil.

[Guest pod]

This is years and years ago. The Beach isn't what it once was. When live acts actually worked on South Beach, 95 percent of you all were probably sporting bad fake IDs.

Nowadays, the Beach is very Euro- and Latin-centric, and I still stand by my declaration that your conventional American rock bands will not go over well with the Beach crowd. You start booking these run-of-the-mill rockers on South Beach, we might as well throw up a security gate on each causeway, pitch up the Universal globe, and rename South Beach to CityWalk South Florida.

Maybe that's where things might go, I don't know. But there goes your cool factor. South Beach would no longer be cool and lose whatever street cred it has left. You wouldn't have fashionistas, rappers, and athletes clamoring to get into the clubs, that's for damn sure. The club owners are about the money, yes, but I don't know if their egos would be willing to sacrifice their cool just to squeeze a bunch of honkies and college weenies from out of town to fill their clubs. You guys are all totally forgetting the ego factor here. People open up clubs to make money and satisfy a deep-seated need to be loved and approved by whomever they think is cool. Rock fans that follow Pearl Jam, Live, and Nickleback are not cool. You all might be nice guys and the sort I'd like to have a beer with someday, but to club owners and promoters in South Beach, you're not cool. Hell, I'm not cool. I'm what they call 'useful'. Drunks with cameras aren't and will never be cool. But I'm OK with that.

[Guest talknightlife]

People open up clubs to make money and satisfy a deep-seated need to be loved and approved by whomever they think is cool. Rock fans that follow Pearl Jam, Live, and Nickleback are not cool. You all might be nice guys and the sort I'd like to have a beer with someday, but to club owners and promoters in South Beach, you're not cool.

The crowd at the Seal show was the typical well-dressed-and-beautiful South Beach people. The same exact people that you see in the night clubs, I promise. The difference was that they were all smiling that night at the Fillmore. It was a great night. There's a lot more to nightlife than techno and disco balls.

Oh BTW, Club Planet: don't forget to censor us so that we can't say "Live Nation" in your forums. Just trying to help...

[Guest pod]

Seal is perpetually cool. He married Heidi Klum, an European supermodel. Knocked her up to prove his point too.

Seal has cool factor because:

1. He's English

2. He married a supermodel

3. His music has qualities which will go over well in a trendy nightclub environment.

Speaking of which, we've ignored the live music which always sells in nightclubs and that is jazz. Jazz was the first "dance music" to sell in trendy nightclubs. Get me a good jazz ensemble and I could slam Cameo with desirable clientele. You get your vocal numbers to keep the crowd happy, then your improvisational instrumentals so they can dance, mingle, and most importantly, traffic the bar. You don't want a centerpiece egocentric rocker all the time because your bar sales slack off for those two hours he or she is on stage. Jazz ensembles are more than willing to be exciting wallpaper for the evening, and yes, they can play till 5 AM. Jazz. You'll get your hip, fashionable crowd. And guess what, there is a strong jazz tradition in France. Cha-fucking-ching. Forget rock. Hell, the first "afterhours" had jazz ensembles jamming out all night long.

Oh and did I mention that some of these guys are amongst the world's most accomplished musicians?

[Guest Davenavarro10]

Pod you're making it seem as if clubs on the beach are Super exclusive

and will only let a select few in. I know some clubs are like that but

for the most part I think most clubs only care about making money. A good

example of this is club dress codes. Some places like Mansion are ultra

exclusive. But most clubs don't really care what a patron is wearing.

I mean people wear t-shirts to go to nightclubs and they get in. I'll

go as far as saying that I'm pretty sure I've seen tourists inside of

Cameo wearing shorts and sneakers.

[Guest pod]

I highly doubt that. If they were wearing sneakers, they were top-shelf Diesels or something. Shorts? Probably one of LP's buddies or something.

For all this rock stuff to happen, you're looking at a sea change in cultural attitudes by the major Beach club operators. They'd have to be willing to say fuck off to the models and bottles crowd that they want and sometimes get, stash their egos in the closet, and welcome White America in with open arms, nickel beer nights, bucket specials. Mansion would look like the Sandbar with a laser, and Cameo would resemble the Rat (at UM) with a premium sound system. Gone would be the innovative wall treatments that Creative Mafia developed, and you'd have banners for the next bucket 'o domestic special on Sundays. Might as well knock down that Welcome to Miami Beach sign on 195, put up mouse ears, and call it Pleasure Island. Let's roll back closing times to 2 AM, unleash hordes of mosquitoes, and call it Orlando-South.

There might be "major players" clamoring for this, but the guys holding the purse strings aren't gonna bend so easily. These are the ego players I've mentioned previously.

[ryan2772]

yeah man i think jazz is a great idea

[Guest eroc0411]

Pod i have a question for you??? When is the last time U Traveled outside of the miami area?? U keep saying the beach, the beach, the beach won't 4 for it... The beach is nothing but tourist i live there i know!!! but ur gonna tell me the ppl that live in kendall, doral, hialeah, palm beach ppl aren't gonna drive 20 mins-or an hr to see thier band live??... Shit i know tons of ppl of ppl that make it from all these places every weekend 2 go 2 the beach... I was in long island and the city was 45 mins away and i did it every weekend... chicago same shit... U, me and just bout all the cj'ers are spoiled cause we live w/ in walking disstance 2 everything.. So u think the world is like us... Ppl will come!!! trust me!!!!

and stop saying the "Beach" nobody lives on the beach except the ppl that work on the beach!

[Guest pod]

I'm not just talking boring old standards either. People initially think jazz, they think Love 94, or "The Quiet Storm" (you should hear my radio voice...someone ask Collado)...however, that being said, what is broadly defined as jazz has as many variations as dance music, and can even cross over into dance territory. A lot of what people consider deep house can and is performed live by actual bands. Gotsoul Orchestra, Petal Pusher, etc.

That sort of dance-friendly, groovy sound done live would have a lot of potential on South Beach. VIP-friendly, culturally acceptable, live, and still "cool".

[Guest pod]

Eroc, I travel outside of the Miami area all the time. I was in Borelando about a week and a half ago. I regularly go to New York, LA, Las Vegas, Colorado, and points in between.

And yeah, those people might travel 20 minutes to see their band, but the last thing the beachside club owners (did you read my ego declaration yet?) want is the Miami version of the bridge-and-tunnel crowd. Ego makes people do funny things.

If money was the sole goal for nightclubs on South Beach, there'd be no dance music nights period, and South Beach would resemble Panama City, Cancun, San Padre Island, or an expensive Ybor City. Egos have prevented such a change. You're fairly new around these parts so I'm venturing a guess you haven't really talked with movers and shakers in these parts, and I know most of them will take somewhat of a hit financially to satisfy their inner ego. You're not gonna get ego satisfaction by inviting the entire state university system to party at your club. You'll have bucks, but you might cry at night since your svelte Eastern European girlfriend went back to Moscow to marry a VP at GAZPROM who has a table reserved every weekend at Moscow's hottest destination. At least she won't have to rub elbows with those filthy people from up north.

[Guest eroc0411]

Eroc, I travel outside of the Miami area all the time. I was in Borelando about a week and a half ago. I regularly go to New York, LA, Las Vegas, Colorado, and points in between.

And yeah, those people might travel 20 minutes to see their band, but the last thing the beachside club owners (did you read my ego declaration yet?) want is the Miami version of the bridge-and-tunnel crowd. Ego makes people do funny things.

If money was the sole goal for nightclubs on South Beach, there'd be no dance music nights period, and South Beach would resemble Panama City, Cancun, San Padre Island, or an expensive Ybor City. Egos have prevented such a change. You're fairly new around these parts so I'm venturing a guess you haven't really talked with movers and shakers in these parts, and I know most of them will take somewhat of a hit financially to satisfy their inner ego. You're not gonna get ego satisfaction by inviting the entire state university system to party at your club. You'll have bucks, but you might cry at night since your svelte Eastern European girlfriend went back to Moscow to marry a VP at GAZPROM who has a table reserved every weekend at Moscow's hottest destination. At least she won't have to rub elbows with those filthy people from up north.

true enough 2 an extent. I sure as fuck like 2 be around the european chicks and they won't put up w/ the flannel beer drinker crowd.. But theres enough places losing money on the beach tryin 2 be VIP...

[Guest pod]

Let them lose money then. It's theirs after all. I don't begrudge the flannel beer-drinker crowd a place to hang, but at the same time, I don't foresee that crowd overrunning the Miami/Miami Beach club scene. A monolithic scene, no matter what the genre, is not a good thing. There's enough buildings and liquor licenses for everyone to have a playground.

[Guest ICON]

honestly.. i love clubs that open up being assoles and dicks at the door... then down the road they go out of business... Sorry, but I thrive off that shit. Serves them right for being assholes.

Barbirino hit the nail on the head... clubs trying to be VIP reminds me of Vegas slot machines ripping off the once/year tourist MILFs that sit there and lose their money all day on those things... they dont know any better.

AT Space.. get a group of 8-10, everybody pitches in.. get sloppy ass drunk and have a good night for cheap.... now thats VIP... the shit on the beach is all a front for the tourist dollar.

[V. Barbarino]

Pod, you are loosing the argument. I can't understand why you paint the beach with such a broad brush. You shouldn't speak for the beach, plus you don't even live on the beach. I don't know how true it was or is, but reportedly 25% of the licenses scanned at Space back in the day were from Broward.

It's almost like LP paid you to go on here and discredit the live band movement when you are faced with so many examples of it working yet you still bury your head in the sand.

Tech pwed you, yet you won't conceded except to say Seal doesn't count.

Example you said something like it would cost a million dollars? Dude! Are you out of your fing mind? Dude, LP could set up a real deal rock set up for 100k in a day! We are talking clubs, not the fucking Sound Advice Amp.

If shitty speakers work wonders for Mansion why won't shitty concert set ups?

Models and bottles love rock stars 10000000000000% more than DJs.. Trust me on that one. When you are a Rock Star you can marry 14 year old chicks like Steven Tyler or Elvis and not get in trouble.

So tell me where the beach and edm are going.

[Guest pod]

Mansion rents systems and engineers for live shows. Hell, the bands that have played Mansion insist on it 95 percent of the time. Mansion has a Funktion-One (like Nocturnal) that is primarily geared for DJ use. I've done enough live shows in clubs with existing systems to know that very few rigs are geared for live shows. Otherwise myself and the people I was working with at the time wouldn't have been hired to go in there and set up a temporary rig for live use.

100K? That'll get you the board and maybe some DSPs. A Midas Heritage series console (the big-ass board you probably saw at the DMB show) costs tens of thousands of dollars. The new Yamaha digitals cost even more. Cameo isn't Sound Advice Ampitheatre, certainly, but to book decent bands, you need a big board to accommodate all those inputs. Then you get into speakers, tuning, and labor. A sound genius like LP could shave some costs off by doing some stuff himself, but you're still running a fair chunk of change to retrofit a club for permanent live use. Oh, and don't forget your house engineer. He's gonna want $60-$100K in salary, or charge you a fortune per gig.

Putting on a live show costs a lot, even with all the shit in place already. And this is before the band is booked. You could book Jesse and the Rippers and there's still a lot of money to be laid out.

Oh, and if dance music is dead, why the heck did Mansion suddenly start booking people like Steve Lawler, Sasha, Axwell, and company? A club that has the easiest job of 'upgrading' to booking rock bands consistently. They've got a stage, and I would guess enough in their war chest to rip out the Funktion-One and put in JBL Vertec (live sound system). For the cost of the three DJs I mentioned they could put a nice downpayment on the project.

I'm in the middle on this one. Dance isn't as dead as you make it out to be, nor is it as healthy as some of the others on the forum are saying. I don't deny that some people would want a rock band in a club, but I'm not wildly optimistic that 2008 is gonna be 'the year rock returns to South Beach'. There's a lot of factors that I'm sure you're aware of and that I've mentioned that will prevent a slam-bang-boom-Hootie in '08 transition. If all clubs decided, 'OK, that Barbarino guy has a point, let's try it', it would still take a full season to turn things in that direction. And, my feeling is that it would come from the ground up. Smaller venues would do it first. You might see a (well duh) a Rokbar that actually plays rock music first.

[Guest talknightlife]

Tech pwed you, yet you won't conceded except to say Seal doesn't count.

Haha, thanks bro... Club Planet is about clubs. It's obvious why they focus on DJs and not rock bands.

Will Club Space endure for as long as Tobacco Road? We'll see, only 88 more years to go! Adapt or die. The Club Legend has always been right about that one, it's just more obvious now that the 21-25 demographic likes open format and hip hop. They don't even know what the hell we're talking about when we reminisce about the glory days of dance music.

The 21-year-old who you see at Club Space was in grade school when Sasha & Digweed released Northern Exposure. Think about that. He was about SEVEN YEARS OLD when they released New Years - Renaissance Domain Name for Sale - New Year's Eve Party Guide and Nightlife Information. (BTW, Pod, why did Club Planet turn my "Renaissance" link into SEO text for "New Years"? I linked the word "Renaissance" to this URL and the board turned it into that 'new years' garbage: Renaissance: The Mix Collection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Die-hard DJ fans are the 2007 version of the 40-year-old guy in the black Led Zeppelin T-shirt at the rock shows in the 90s. Or "Hey man, is that Freedom Rock, man?" from the 80s. That gap is less than 20 years, think about it...

[Guest pod]

What I'm getting at is that there's always been dance music fans, just like there's always been rock fans. Successful clubs can and do adapt, you're right. Tobacco Road didn't start out playing rock music, even. They adapted to it in the 1960s. I never said that Space, Mansion, Cameo, etc, are going to stick with house music as their mainstay sort of sound. I merely said dance music. Hell, Space started life driving the heck out of the trance sound. Now, you're lucky to get a trance DJ once a month. Ask around, like some of the people who are 40ish, and have lived here all their lives, there's always been some sort of DJ-driven nightclub scene in Miami. They probably called it a disco in the 1970s though. They didn't all of the sudden kick out all the live acts circa 1997.

Barbarino, let me ask you this for clarification. Do you see Cameo, Mansion, etc, turning into giant college bars? Or somehow, getting their current crowds to accept your live rock bands as entertainment? Or my theory that it's going to be more Latin and European rock sounds? Or jazz?

I'm repeating myself, but I see live music on the beach, not rock exclusively.

[Guest JustDade]

First of all......Barbarino generates another huge thread.

BUT....he's clearly wrong on this one. What he's failing to take notice of is the fact that no venue in Miami has ever had even marginal success with live music as a format. Why, you ask? I don't have a clue. Many have tried. Hell, even the Steven Talkhouse failed here.

As the resident old guy here I have been clubbing in Miami longer than most of you. There has never been a live scene and there never will be. The idea of the Beach becoming a big Dave Matthews loving college kegger is just nuts. We don't even have enough college spirit to fill the Orange Bowl for a Canes game. Miami's college party scene can't fill the clubs in Coconut Grove on Thursday, (college night), so I think the Beach is safe.