mrdick Posted April 25 Report Share Posted April 25 I saw a show about women and body image today and I gotta say that I have some issues with this. Once again political correctness distorts a truth and takes a complex issue and tries to make it too simple.On one hand, yes, it is wrong to idealize the type of female body image that is unnaturally thin. But, and this is important, only thin to the extent that it involves denying some muscle build-up as well as fat build up. One problem is that a lot of teen-age girls in their obsession to be thin are taking the easy way and just denying all nutrients and not working out. Don't get me wrong, it is a sickness and some women work out too much as well - there is a minimum body fat level.But just because some women go too far for whatever reason does not change the fact that the low-body fat look is the ideal and should be.This doesn't mean we should be obsessed with looks or not accept that most people are not perfect. On the other hand, when we talk of ideals we are talking of our goals and aspirations and we cannot let our goals become mired in mediocrity.Big is not beautiful when its bigness because of body fat. Reubenesque women were just a silly fad for a sillier time. And plus size models are a joke!! I mean sure, some women still look beautiful despite being overweight. But choosing people because they are overweight is retarded!In today's society we have the time, resources and ability to eat right and do some excercise. Even over-worked supermom's can learn to eat right in a cheap and easy manner. And funnily, our bodies were designed in such a way that diet is actually way more important han excercise. If your diet is good you do not need very much exercise to stay thin. So even if you are strapped for time you can stay thin at least though you won't be in top notch shape.This is not an attack on anyone. None of us are perfect. I do not expect perfection in my women and find many women who are not in great shape to still be very attractive. But life is not easy, soft or fair and while I am compassionate and accepting I refuse to let these feelings make me so soft that it distorts my perception of truth. Political correctness tries to make the world a nicer place simply by saying that it should be nice and demanding that everyone play along with the ruse - but it doesn't work that way.Anyways, that is my rant for today. Let the flaming begin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djmoonshine Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 i dunno dick... you may be wrong, you may be right, who knows, i dont wanna get into that... but i honestly just don't like the post... ------------------ life's a ride... pack light...AIM: dELERiUM 540[This message has been edited by djmoonshine (edited 04-25-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrdick Posted April 26 Author Report Share Posted April 26 fair enough moonie We will agree to disagree Still luv ya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest xfactor834 Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 It may just get a lil' hot in here Dick...------------------ Don't fly too high on borrowed wings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmb1975 Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 What about men? Are men exempt from the rules that you have stated. Is it ok for men to have a few extra pounds. Are men dismissed from worrying about being overweight? This rant is the most one-sided, load of bullshit i have ever read. I see it as a way for you to skirt the issue at hand. You have a problem with overweight WOMEN and the people who choose them over the skinny waif like creature in the magazine. Do you know that the average woman is a size 12? I suppose that is wrong as well. Unfortunately, we do not all have the genetic make up of Kate Moss and Naomi Campbell. Most of us struggle from day to day with what we can and cannot eat, comparing ourselves to the genetically blessed, forcing ourselves to workout just to see the slighest change in our fat little bodies. And why do we do this? Because society, namely people like you, have made it so. You put your 80 pound models on our magazine covers, on our billboards, on our television shows. They model the clothing we wear, the food we eat, the cars we drive, even the sanitary products we use. So its no wonder women all over this country and the world have been forced to think that if you are not thin you are somehow less of a women, unattractive to the rest of society. Its disgusting. I am sick and tired of having to measure up to the unrealistic standards that are forced upon us. And to say that "Reubenesque women were just a silly fad for a sillier time" makes my blood boil. Who are you to say what should have been the norm 50 years ago? So, I suppose the pin up girls of yesterday were just ridiculous as well. Marilyn Monroe, Betty Grable. Compared to todays standards these beauties would be seen as fat!!! And these women were seen as goddesses and still are to this day!"So even if you are strapped for time you can stay thin at least though you won't be in top notch shape"...Maybe your body was designed so that all you had to do was eat right. But that does not work for everyone my dear. Peoples metabolisms are different. What works for you will not work for the next person. How can you possibly say that all we really need to do is eat right, exercise isnt that important to stay thin. I know people who have struggled all their lives to maintain and desired weight. Even if they look at a donut, they gain 5 pounds. Also, dont pretend to know what a "super-mom" can put into her day. When you are raising a child and cant even go to the bathroom alone, then talk to me about what I should do once I have put my child to bed. Don't you dare pretend to know.I am disappointed, appalled and saddened to read this thread. I really truly hope that you dont actually feel this way and that you had some kind of brain fart and had to post a load of horse shit.Anyway, Thats MY rant for now. I'll be back if I think of more.------------------ The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djmoonshine Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 you know wyatt... i initially read your post and didn't know what to make of it... it made me upset but i couldnt get my thoughts together to come up with a reply that truly reflected how i felt. i think the biggest part of that was i couldn't believe you would post something like this. it's shocking and upsetting... well, here goes and yeah claire response had a lot to do with it... so blah...But just because some women go too far for whatever reason does not change the fact that the low-body fat look is the ideal and should be. This doesn't mean we should be obsessed with looks or not accept that most people are not perfect. how do you expect 16 old girls to not be obsessed with their looks when people like you feel that low-body fat is the ideal way to be? On the other hand, when we talk of ideals we are talking of our goals and aspirations and we cannot let our goals become mired in mediocrity.whos to say what anyones ideals are... shit to a fucking 600lb woman an ideal weight might be 300lbs... you dont know anything about anyone but yourself... fuck wyatt... im mediocore... i'm not leggy, long and beautiful... im short and uh, not skinny!!! im nothing like what society wants me to be... and it sucks cause then you find out you're friends think the same way... your friends dont really accept your beauty for what it is but is inwardly comparing it to supermodels... and yeah i know you've never seen me, but now how can i look foward to that when i know what you'll really be thinking...you know... im just so freakin pissed off right now... i probably dont make an ounce of sense so im just gonna shut up and steam... ------------------ life's a ride... pack light...AIM: dELERiUM 540 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diesel00 Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 Although noone in here knows me, I thought I'd reply to your post, Dick.You make a strong point about society, but your post was quite poorly written and you contradict yourself a bit. I do, however, agree with most of what you say and a bit of what Moonshine has to say.Girls are obessesed with their weight due to the immense amount of teenage periodicals thrown at them every day. These young women don't know how to handle it, and they do indeed "take the easy way out" by simply not eating. I watch some of my closest female friends do it on a daily basis. None of them excercise. They get headaches every day and normally aren't very happy.This goes to reflect a girl's personallity. I don't know you, Moonshine, but I am assuming you're a pretty optimistic girl most of the time (judging from your post regarding your stand on slim figures). The girls I know obsessed with not eating aren't happy. It's pulled me away from them over the years, and I really shouldn't even call them my "close friends" any more.Moonshine made a dramatic point. What IS an ideal weight? Heck, for me it would be about fifteen more pounds. For most any girl it is fifteen less pounds, and this is still the comparatively slender girls. It changes for every person, but overall, society wants a slim (=attractive) female.I can't agree completely blame magazines. I feel that a girl's mother has a lot to do with it. If a girl hears every day since day one, "you shouldn't eat so much," she's obviously going to have a different view on her food intake than a child who's mother says, "eat what you'd like to, dear." My sister, for example, is not concerned with her weight. I talked to her a few weeks ago, and she feels she looks fine. My friends tell me she does too if that means anything. She grew up under the second situation. My mom never hassled her about food, and it worked out nicely in her favor.Now, looking at the bellies I see on men every day. I really don't have time to go into this, but I just seems that the older men get, the less they care about their weight. What's even worse (or better?) is that they pretty much don't care at all their whole life.Whatever, I've taken too long to type this. Someone else can continue this if they are inclined.-Wes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clubkat Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 *Big is not beautiful when its bigness because of body fat. Reubenesque women were just a silly fad for a sillier time. And plus size models are a joke!! I mean sure, some women still look beautiful despite being overweight. But choosing people because they are overweight is retarded!*First of all i want to say that I love everyone!!!!!!Second....Dick baby....thats BS and this whole point is where the post went to hell.Some people can not help to have "excess body fat!" That's a given...being genetically proven.And isnt bigness always because of body fat? Then there's the plus size models are a joke Well what is a size 14 girl to do baby? Wonder how she looks in a size 0 girls clothes?? Other than that....the post makes some sense.Alot of people should get off their ass and start EATING right (including my ass cause it is gettin a lil too fat ) As far as excercise goes, you eat right, you stay healthy (some excersise doesnt hurt but hey! i'll raise my hand as "THE LAZY BUG!"Well whatever.....just my $1.02 (damn you people... i could of used that for a slimfast!)------------------ *How many licks does it take?* *Shake it baby, Shake it!* AiM: XxXccess(*SHAGFEST 2001* Cumming soon!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest xfactor834 Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 What a topic Dick...really controversial...but it's good to hear these opinions.No one has the right answer.No one has the wrong answer.Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It really is. We see people who have no legs (God forbid) getting married to their partners, and they are crying from happiness. That give me goosebumps (the good ones).We see deaf and blind people enjoy relationships filled with love and joy. That's so awesome.No one can say that a 200 pound lady looks ugly.And no one can say that an 85 pound 24 year old is ugly, either.Health is a completely different issue.Of course it's not healthy to be 600 pounds.And of course it's not healthy to be 85 pounds at 24 years of age.There are two topics here: health and beautyWomen need fat, especially since they're built to have children. An 85 pound pregnant woman will almost certainly not be able to nourish her baby well.Also, the 600 pound person will most likely die because of heart failure or congestion of arteries.But people may find them to be beautiful.Regarding health, there really are no opinions. It's pretty much all facts. No one can argue with a straight face that being 600 pounds is healthy.And no one can argue that it's healthy to be pregnant at 85 pounds.But with beauty, it's all opinion and no facts. No matter how much we argue with someone, he/she may find someone to be beautiful when we find him/her to be hideous.That's the beauty of life.Love you all.*Hugging Claire and Moonie in each arm warmly*Night people. ------------------ Don't fly too high on borrowed wings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenupa Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 I think Xfactor sorted this mess out realllyyy well. There are two topics here and as far as beauty is concerned, well, the eye is drawn to what is attractive. That's just nature. People have an easier time appreciating beauty, bottom line. Health is a different issue entirely. X said it, facts are facts. It's that simple.It really comes down to a personal preferance and how you feel about the other person that matters. For myself, I gotta have it all, smarts, looks, and a little 'tude. ------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djmoonshine Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 alright.. i admit, i over-reacted a bit and it shows cause my thoughts arent clear and consice and thought-out... i was just angry, really angry and i still am but now i must respond to what others have said... forgot to respond to this lovely piece of sentence the second time around so here comes the third...**I mean sure, some women still look beautiful despite being overweight. But choosing people because they are overweight is retarded!**ugh! that's a disgusting thing to say! retarded? come on!!! it's like the more thimes i read this the more stuff i find to get pissed off about! **But life is not easy, soft or fair and while I am compassionate and accepting I refuse to let these feelings make me so soft that it distorts my perception of truth.** WHAT IS TRUTH??! **Alot of people should get off their ass and start EATING right (including my ass cause it is gettin a lil too fat ) As far as excercise goes, you eat right, you stay healthy (some excersise doesnt hurt but hey! i'll raise my hand as "THE LAZY BUG!"**ok, clubkat gets a lot of credit for what she said. PEOPLE (NOT ONLY WOMEN!!!!!!! )should learn to eat right and excercise, but not necessarily to LOOK good, but to feel good, to stay healthy and live long... not because "the low-fat look is the ideal way to be" im still fuming about this post because there is no mention of men being over weight and lord help me, not all of you are as blessed to look as good and be as fit as dick obviously is... sure he saw a show about it on tv and it was about women, but come on... you can't talk about women without talking about men, not in this day and age... this post totally blows!!! all it has done is make me upset and sad about the way things are... UGH! ------------------ life's a ride... pack light...AIM: dELERiUM 540 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djmoonshine Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 p.s. xfactor.. you're a sweetie with a kind heart.. i totally agree with you and tenupa, but in my rage i forgot to mention you... p.p.s i love you to d...i love everyone... im just really angry and frustrated right now.. ------------------ life's a ride... pack light...AIM: dELERiUM 540[This message has been edited by djmoonshine (edited 04-26-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djmoonshine Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 ...sent url to my friend peter whom some of you met at the meetup... we thought he was one of the freaks and he wasn't... yeah you dont remember.. ok... well this is what he had to say to this whole thing... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Well,First of let me apologize on behalf of all the non-skinny bad diet fatties that must insult you daily by occupying YOUR planet. This is sooo ridiculous like you haven't figured it out. Of course you like skinny girls, thats all you've been conditioned to like, by Film, TV, Media since you were born. And doesn't it have to suck to live in this world when you are naturally, yes naturally incline to be overweight. Ive never had that problem, but do I think someone who weighs 300 pounds is just that way because they eat that much more or that much more poorly than I do? I doubt it. Try genetics and metabolism. Sure maybe if they starve themselves or go to the gym 24/7 they could beat it but is it worth it?? To them? To us? Hey if Thomas Edison was heavy set I'd rather have him fat happy and inventing electric lights and phonographs than doing sit ups all day.So yes the media has trained you to want healthy, skinny (too skinny actually) people and you've bought into it. You've achieved Pavlovian dog status. Congratulations! There was a time when fat meant you had achieved the social status to eat well and often and if you had a tan it meant you were poor and had to work in the fields. So times are times. Silly?? maybe but then again perspective doesn't seem to be your strong suit so I'm not sure I would pass judgment on anything if I were you. Oh look at the time. Shouldn't you be grabbing a ricecake and heading to the gym instead of reading this?hmmmmmmmmm~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ok, now im seriously gonna sit back on this one.. i've said more then enough...good night! ------------------ life's a ride... pack light...AIM: dELERiUM 540 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beautious1 Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 Don't you people sleep at night???Or are you guys vampires?Anyway.....I said it in a previous post about breast implants.... we all strive for that perfect body. Big breasts, tight abs, nice ass.... blah blah blah--media, society, movies....We ALL want to look good. Even the 300 pound woman, even the 85 pound woman... we ALL buy make-up, we all buy hair care products, we are all VAIN to a certain extent. Now to each is own, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and my personal favorite WHATEVER FLOATS YOUR BOAT!!! ------------------"Whose Line Is It Anyway?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrdick Posted April 26 Author Report Share Posted April 26 Well I guess I started something But can we not keep this an intellectual exchange of ideas please I am not sure that anyone actually read what I said. Or if they did they skipped the nuances - which to me are everything in this kind of conversation.To begin with, the show was on women but I should have made it more clear that it applies to men as well. Of course it does.The kate moss comment was uncalled for. To begin with, it is perfectly possible, even likely, for a society to have an ideal of beauty and fitness that most people cannot genetically live up to. It is the ideal. Now I think it is silly if that ideal involves women (and lets talk about women here for now) who are so thin that they are unhealthy. Beauty and fitness should be related and should involve trying to achieve a body size where you have the minimum healthy level of body fat AND healthy muscle development. An ideal (there is no one ideal yet generally there is a lot of common ground when it comesto ideas of beauty) should not be such that it involves portraying women who are not fit and healthy.As such, many, though not all, of the super-models are silly ideals - that is not healthy. However, that in no way means that FAT of any kind above the healthy level needed, should be an ideal. Its not healthy and it isn't as attractive as not having it. So some of the swimsuit or fitness models make excellent ideals - they are thin, fit, well toned, healthy women.Here's the tricky part. Some women, because of their structure, will always have wider hips or bigger bones than the ideal - even when perfectly fit and toned they may have too much muscle in some areas, be too squat, short, whatever. Same for men where it is a bit more complicated in that society has two ideals - the swimmer/gymnast lean look and the huge, very developped look. And yes, some of those ideals get taken too far becaus these guys areon roids and have too little body fat but there are many who are very healthy.The point is that beauty and aesthetics are not fair and what we use as ideals, what we will naturally aspire too or want to look at on TV and magazines - most of the time people cannot be like that EVEN if they ate perfectly and went to the gym all the time. But that's just how it is. These are the ideals. Some people have better genes than others. The point is that the people on our magazines and TV should be HEALTHY - I totally agree. But we shouldn'texpect them to in general be overweight. An ideal is not fair. It is what it is. Now, perhaps it is unhealthy to have so many pictures and images of these types of men and women around. Perhaps it is unhealthy for someone who can never be like that to be bombarded by these images. Perhaps these images are making our young women kill themselves slowly. But in thatcase the problem is with having to many of these images or of a culture thattakes personal beauty to be too important. But what you cannot do and remain intellectually honest is say some of those images, the healthy ones, were notideals of beauty just because they were unattainable by some. You cannot change your ideal to people with more body fat. Thatis dishonest and fooling ourselves. You can accept imperfection, you can say that thetre are otherthings that matter more, but you cannot idealize it. That is the road to a weak and decadent society. And I think that some of you missed the other half of whatI was saying which is: SO WHAT. Myself, Idon't havegreat genes and currentlydo not and never will look great. But I don't expect to be on magazines. Andsome people find me attractive. Some don't.When Isee a girl who maybe doesn't have the build for a great body and hasn't even maximized what she has that doesn't become the only characteristic that matters. She still may be super hot. I will still be attracted to her. I do not expect perfection. Iam not perfect. But neither will I make an ideal of imperfection.We live in a grossly over-weight society. Its otally out ofhand. And it is one thing to accept thatnot everyone has time or inclination to keep their weight in check. And its not always that big a deal. But on the other hand to idealize fat in anyway, to say that a woman or a man is at the pinnacle of health when he is in fact 10 pounds over-weightis fooling ourselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrdick Posted April 26 Author Report Share Posted April 26 2 x post oops[This message has been edited by mrdick (edited 04-26-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrdick Posted April 26 Author Report Share Posted April 26 3 x post[This message has been edited by mrdick (edited 04-26-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrdick Posted April 26 Author Report Share Posted April 26 I think I should have added - to me this is a philosophical discussion of what areculture sees as the ideal human form. It is a discussion of aesthetics.And everyone knows thatthere is not necessarily one ideal. variety is the soice of life. And even though there tends to be consensus on what is ideal, even if you don't fit that mold you can still be beautiful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clubkat Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 clubkat says...."Way over my head and it just got boring so who wants to lick my FAT KITTY COOCHIE to brighten up the day?" i'm sorry im just really bored today.------------------ *How many licks does it take?* *Shake it baby, Shake it!* AiM: XxXccess(*SHAGFEST 2001* Cumming soon!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tastyt Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 I'm not really sure where to start with this one... First off, I just want to say that, Moonshine, (CMB and Clubkat too, I just single Moonie out cuz of what she said about herself) you're beautiful babe, even if you don't have those long legs that I too wish for! You're gorgeous even if you're not "what society wants you to be." FUCK society!I know it was mentioned, but it really should be more of a healthy vs unhealthy rather than fat vs skinny issue. Kate Moss may be healthy (from what I hear she eats like a horse) but for most women, if they were that thin, it would mean they were seriously malnourished.And yes your homelife has a strong influincing factor as well. My Mom's family is obsessed with thinness. I was very skinny at one point during college (lots of drugs); in all seriousness my mother said to me AS A COMPLIMENT "oh you're so skinny, you look like you're anorexic!" Don't you know I jumped on her case about that one!And I have to agree w/CMB about mothers. I do not have children so I can only imagine what it's like. But when you have a little person to take care of 24/7 ESPECIALLY when you're doing it by yourself...??? And I don't just mean single moms. Plenty of married women take care of their children- ALONE. You're forgetting not only the TIME but the MONEY involved; healthy food is more expensive! And going through pregnancy can really change a woman's body.Our bodies are designed to STORE fat, not the other way around. Exercising is a much better way to stay in shape than changing your diet. And guess what? How much time do you think a mother has for exercise?And don't even try to exempt men from this one. A spare tire is just as unattractive on you guys as it is on us.With that said... Bad, Dick, very bad. ------------------ Let me take you on a journey into bliss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digital7 Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 I agree that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, no matter who or how they look like.------------------ Respect the Floori.d.a. scene! Believe. Peace,DIGITAL 7-------------------------Surgeon General's Warning: Smoking Causes Lung Cancer, Heart Disease, Emphysema, And May Complicate Pregancy.------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tastyt Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 One more thing about this "ideal" business. You say that the Rubanesque figure was a silly fad. Waifs were a fad. Marilyn Monroe was a fad. Who's to say that today's "ideal" won't just be another one? There are no absolutes when it comes to taste. Whose ideal are we talking about here??? YOURS!Oh, and by the way, what was that thing about being ten pounds overweight??? Give me a break! Welcome to the real world, except on someone as short as me, ten pounds ain't nothin'.------------------ Let me take you on a journey into bliss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmb1975 Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 Well I guess I started something Wasnt that your intention.But can we not keep this an intellectual exchange of ideas please I guess we are not as intellectual as you.I am not sure that anyone actually read what I said. Or if they did they skipped the nuances - which to me are everything in this kind of conversation. We all read it dick, and we all came to basically the same conclusion. Notice the similarity of the posts.The kate moss comment was uncalled for. To begin with, it is perfectly possible, even likely, for a society to have an ideal of beauty and fitness that most people cannot genetically live up to. That comment was in response to your idea that all we need to do is eat right and we can be thin. That somehow we all have this marvelous metabolisms, where we dont need exercise. Beauty and fitness should be related and should involve trying to achieve a body size where you have the minimum healthy level of body fat AND healthy muscle development. Thats terrific. Do you still believe in the easter bunny as well? We dont live in a fantassy world here. People struggle daily with attaining the ideal, but its harder for some people than obviously for you. An ideal (there is no one ideal yet generally there is a lot of common ground when it comesto ideas of beauty) should not be such that it involves portraying women who are not fit and healthy. No it shouldnt but why do you think they are on all the magazine covers? Because society, namely people like you, will only accept that. Larger people are unacceptable somehow, less important, less human. When in fact, we are the norm, the majority.However, that in no way means that FAT of any kind above the healthy level needed, should be an ideal. Its not healthy and it isn't as attractive as not having it. So some of the swimsuit or fitness models make excellent ideals - they are thin, fit, well toned, healthy women. Thats wonderful. If my job was a runner or a swimmer or a gymnast, I too would be able to spend my life creating that perfect ideal for myself. But since I have to work 9-5 behind a computer and then care for my child, I dont have that kind of time. Some women, because of their structure, will always have wider hips or bigger bones than the ideal - even when perfectly fit and toned they may have too much muscle in some areas, be too squat, short, whatever. Same for men where it is a bit more complicated in that society has two ideals - the swimmer/gymnast lean look and the huge, very developped look. And yes, some of those ideals get taken too far becaus these guys areon roids and have too little body fat but there are many who are very healthy. and what is the point here? Backpeddling again?The point is that beauty and aesthetics are not fair and what we use as ideals, what we will naturally aspire too or want to look at on TV and magazines - most of the time people cannot be like that EVEN if they ate perfectly and went to the gym all the time. But that's just how it is. These are the ideals. Some people have better genes than others. Couldnt have said that better myself. So why are you reaffirming these unfair ideals with your "rant"?The point is that the people on our magazines and TV should be HEALTHY - I totally agree. But we shouldn'texpect them to in general be overweight. Says who? I know you think that plus size models are a joke, but there is a reason they exist. Because women and men are sick and tired of seeing these "healthy ideal people" trying to sell us clothes and food and cars. I think Emme is one of the most beautiful women I have ever laid eyes on. But I guess since she is not the "ideal" size 4, then she is a joke too, right? Perhaps it is unhealthy or someone who can never be like that to be bombarded by these images. Perhaps these images are making our young women kill themselves slowly. But in thatcase the problem is with having to many of these images or of a culture thattakes personal beauty to be too important. But what you cannot do and remain intellectually honest is say some of those images, the healthy ones, were notideals of beauty just because they were unattainable by some. You cannot change your ideal to people with more body fat. Thatis dishonest and fooling ourselves. You can accept imperfection, you can say that thetre are otherthings that matter more, but you cannot idealize it. That is the road to a weak and decadent society. Society has made us think we have to look a certain way or we are not right, we are less of a woman/man. People struggle daily with imperfections because they are being honest with themselves. "They will like me more if I look like her/him." Comparing yourself to another is disasterous, yet this is what you are telling us to do. Look at these fit people and see what you SHOULD look like. Because they way you look now, its not good enough. Well I for one am sick of it. I am sick and tired of not feeling as beautiful as someone else, because I dont wear a size 4. I am fed up with feeling like less of a woman because I dont fit into this ideal catagory. Who are you to tell me what I should look like, how much I should weight, what clothes I should fit in. And I think that some of you missed the other half of whatI was saying which is: SO WHAT. Actually, I must have missed that. I dont see that anywhere in your original thread. We live in a grossly over-weight society. Its otally out ofhand. And it is one thing to accept thatnot everyone has time or inclination to keep their weight in check. And its not always that big a deal. But on the other hand to idealize fat in anyway, to say that a woman or a man is at the pinnacle of health when he is in fact 10 pounds over-weightis fooling ourselves. I dont think thats what any of us where saying. I agree that society on teh whole is an overweight society. However, I dont think its up to you to tell me how much weight I should have to lose to fit in to societies standards. I apologize to the rest of the board for going on and on about this topic, but it really hurts me to have to read this crap.------------------ The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrdick Posted April 26 Author Report Share Posted April 26 I am not usually one to engage in sloppy writing but my previous posts, especially my first, were very poorly written as Diezel mentioned. It was particularly inexcusable post a poorly worded argument on such a sensitive issue. I was insensitive in thinking that this argument could somehow remain intellectual. I see now that it almost had to become personal. Frankly, I wish that I had never posted in the first place. It is not that I think I was wrong but rather that any small benefit achieved by this discussion has been completely outweighed by the harm that it has done. This being said, the discussion has happened - is happening. I feel that partly due to poor writing and partly due to high emotions, I have been misunderstood. I will try to present my case as eloquently and succintly as I can as well as address some points that have come up.Some of my points were flippant and silly. Many "plussize" models are beautiful. And there is a legitimate business need for them as heavier women need clothes and need to see examples of how good they can look in those clothes."taking the easy way out" was a bad way to phrase it as anorexia is a disease and is not the "easy" way out of anything. Many of these young women are trying to achieve such unhealthy ideals that they don't even excercise - not becaue it would be too hard, but because they are afraid to put on any muscle mass because that would make them big. They are not just trying to avoid fat -they are trying to be small and some of them - most of them - do not have bodies that can ever look like that.And I fully include men as well as women in this topic. There are some differences but I am generally referring to both. What I was clumsily trying to get at is that I do believe that societies and cultures do have Ideals of beauty. I am not saying that there is only one ideal or one truth to the universe. But I am also saying that it isn't necessarily true that truth is completely subjective either - that it is completely up to the individual. Despite "beauty being in the eye of the beholder" cultures do seem to have a remarkkable consensus on many aesthetic ideals. Even cross-culturally there is some consensus. There are, of course, always exceptions.So I do think that intellectually there are some grounds for discussing common ideals of beauty and body image. And that in fact, in some sense, you can say that a certain body is more beautiful than another one and within a certain context, you can be right. This gets into the metaphysics of whether all truth is objective or subjective - and I think that it is somewhere in-between. And thus so are ideals of beauty and body image -not entirely in the eye of the beholder but also not entirely objective.As x-factor pointed out, health and beauty are different concepts. But I feel that they should be and are related. Beauty and health have usually been related when cultures have chosen their body image ideals. I think that all cultures will have ideals and probably should - it is just human nature.And it is my feeling that if we are going to have ideals of beauty, and it is those images that will be posted on our walls and on our magazine covers, then our ideal should be a healthy one. And given our improved knowledge of health and our improved economic situation over the past - what is healthy for us is going to be different than what was healthy for other societies.For example, it is not necessary for us to fatten up during the fall to survive the winter. There are other examples as well.So knowing what we know, the ideal weight for people isn't a weight at all - it is having very little (though enough) body fat and healthy muscle development. And it so happens that partly because of this connection to fitness and partly for purely aesthetic reasons, most people are at their most beautiful when they have achieved a state of having minimal body fat and good muscle tone.I think we also have to accept that some people are generally going to be considered more beautful than others. And also, that some body sizzes and frames at their optimal weight are going to be considred more appealingthan other frames, even if they are also in perfect condition. This is life. This is human nature. I do not think that we can change our opinions of beauty because they are not fair. It is not necessary that an "ideal" be actually attainable by everyone for it to be an ideal.I also think that a society is naturally going to want to see its ideal of beauty more than it is going to want to see images that are not of that ideal. Therefore, I don't think you will ever get to the point where we see over-weight people on magazine cvers and pin-up posters. And perhaps we shouldn't. The issue of what being constantly bombarded by images of "ideal" men and women does to our psychology is a different matter. first off, I feel that many of these ideal body types are not a "healhy" ideal. but even if they were all healthy ideals of veryfit men and women it still would cause some loss of self-esteem to the populace. But he answer here is not to say that these are not "ideals" of beauty butrather to either bombard us less or teach a philosophy whereby physical beauty is not thought to be of primary importance to ones self-esteem. But we cannot try to deceive ourselves. What I object to is not an attitude that says people of all shapes and sizes can still be beautiful. I also feel that we areall imperfect but can still be attractive. A few extra pounds is not a big deal. But on the other hand, we should not say that being 10 pounds over-weight is completely fine. Its not a big deal and a person usually has bigger issues to deal with. But they would, most likely, look better without the extra pounds. Big may be beautiful but it is not beautiful because it is big.We need to be able to accept our flaws without forgetting that they are flaws. It is up to people to determine what priority they give to fitness. But I do think that we should not be teaching people that it is perfectly fine to be over-weight - that that isjust how YOUR body works and that is your ideal size. No one's ideal size involves being overweight. Many people have trouble controlling their weight. It is harder for somke than others. I respect that. But it is intelllectually dishonest to say that becaue someone finds it hard to stay thin that being over-weight is ow they "should" be. This was meant to be a philosophical discussion and I hope that maybe we can all become a little less heated if this discussion does continue. I do admit that it was my fault that it got heated - I was reckless when dealing with a very sensitive subject. For that I am truly sorry. But I do hope the discussion can become less personal. And on a philosophical basis I find this topic fascinating and I do notthink I have all the answers. Iwoulddefinitely welcome an exchange of ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djmoonshine Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 ive decided not to say anything more about this... i've said more then enough and now it's stupid... tastyt... thanks doll clubkat... ill lick your fat coochie any time you want to thrust that shit in my face... wyatt... i dunno what to say to you, so ill leave it at that... ~djmoonshine ------------------ life's a ride... pack light...AIM: dELERiUM 540 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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