HEY GUYS---"You wanna know what your problem is?"

[LavenderMenace]

Gina's tirade against the "beautiful" women of the world. From the movie beautiful girls

"You wanna know what your problem is? MTV, Playboys, and Madison fucking Avenue. Yeah. Let me explain something to you. OK, look, girls with big tits have big asses, girls with little tits have little asses. That's the way it goes. God doesn't fuck around, he's a fair guy. He gave the fatties big, beautiful tits, and the skinnies little, tiny niddlers. If you don't like it, call him...

Oh guys, look what we have here. [ Looking at a porn magazine. ] Look at this: your favorite. Oh, you like that? Yeah, that's nice, right? Well, it doesn't exist, okay? Look at the hair. The hair is long, it's flowing, it's like a river. Well, it's a fucking weave, okay? And the tits. Please, I could hang my overcoat on them. Tits, by design, are intended to be suckled by babies. Yeah, they're purely functional. These are silicone city. And look, my favorite, the shaved pubis. Pubic hair being so unruly and all. Very vain. This is a mockery, this is a sham, this is bullshit. Implants, calogen, plastics, capped teeth, the fat sucked out, the hair extended, the nose fixed, the bush shaved -- these are not real women, alright? They're beauty freaks. And they make all us normal women with our wrinkles, our puckered boobs, our cellulite seem feel somewhat inadequate.

Well, I don't buy it, alright? You think that there's a chance in hell that you'll end up with one of these women. You don't give us real women any thing approaching a commitment. It's pathetic. I don't know what you think you're going to do. You're going to end up 80 years old, drooling in some nursing home, and then you'll decide that it's time to settle down, get married, have kids? What are you going to do? Find a cheerleader?

Look at Paul -- with his models on the wall, his dog named Elle Macpherson. He's insane! He's obsessed. You're all obsessed. If you had an ounce of self-esteem, of self-worth, of self-confidence, you would realize that as trite as it may sound: beauty is truly skin deep. And you know what? If you ever did hook one of those girls, I guarantee you'd be sick of her.

Get over yourself! No matter how perfect the nipple, how supple the thigh, unless there's some other shit going on in the relationship besides physical, it's going get old, okay? And you guys, as a gender, have got to get a grip, otherwise the future of the human race is in jeopardy."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I love that movie.

[trancerxn112]

Ouch this sounds like a personal attack on all men... if there was a movie i could qoute about the opposite i would lol

[LavenderMenace]

Originally posted by trancerxn112

Ouch this sounds like a personal attack on all men... if there was a movie i could qoute about the opposite i would lol

NO, not really. there are plenty of good men in the world. Its actually more of an attack on models, and fashion, and media etc

Plus I just find this absolutely HILARIOUS!

[clubkat]

CLASSIC AND A HALF!

i have got to see this movie

[Xpander]

giant boobies are scary....

the fact that some are bigger than the heads that they're located near....

[LavenderMenace]

The other great monologue from that movie:

The Power of Supermodels

Supermodels are beautiful girls. A beautiful girl can make you dizzy, like you've been drinking Jack and Coke all morning. She can make you feel high full of the single greatest commodity known to man--promise. Promise of a better day. Promise of a greater hope. Promise of a new tomorrow. This particular aura can be found in the gaze of a beautiful girl. In her smile, in her soul, the way she makes every rotten little thing about life seem like it's going to be okay. The supermodels, Willy? That's all they are. Bottled promise. Scenes from a brand new day. Hope dancing in stilletto heels.

[rdancer]

Deep, really Deep. I would take a girl with small breasts over the large breasted one any day. Did I get the point or am I missing it

[dialectics]

i LOVED that movie - but i've got to say that if 'marty' was 18 around now, walking around columbia i'd probably be too scared to talk to her.

[roadrunner]

That's bullshit. Like there's no girls with big tits and small asses out there?

Why you'd want a tiny ass, however, is beyond me... Anyway, it's not the size, it's the shape and the scale. People are "perceived" as beautiful because of their proportions and the relative symmetry of their parts. they did a whole study on it. There's some 'golden ratio'-type thing that we view as the ideal. It doesn't matter if you weigh 110 or 210, as long as the proportions are right.

[tastyt]

Originally posted by dialectics

i LOVED that movie - but i've got to say that if 'marty' was 18 around now, walking around columbia i'd probably be too scared to talk to her.

That was Natalie Portman, wasn't it???

BTW, I saw her in Central Park at the Basement Jaxx show- another one for our side!

Awesome quotes Lavender.

[petrol]

So, to overanalyze.

This link kind of begins to get at the essence of the relationship between language, perception, and the classical notion of the "Ideal Form".

http://ksi.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/KAW/KAW96/steve/meaning.html

But I'll try to express the idea in less technical terms.

Language is metaphor... we speak in terms which tend to be based on concrete examples. For example, the previous sentence uses the idea of concrete (as a physical substance) to express an idea. The same is true when we speak of 'a foundation for an idea' or 'to raise a child'. If you start noticing, you'll find it throughout language.

The second step: Terms in language tend to cluster around 'ideals' (there it is again- terms 'clustering'). For example... think of a pencil. Now look around and find a few pencils. Pick the pencil which is most 'pencil-like'. Pick the pencil which most embodies the traits a pencil has or should have. Language thrives on shared concepts and those shared concepts become ideals. Ideals may span a culture or the human experience. Ancient Greek philosophy discusses the 'ideal circle'. (Someone else will have to share who discussed this concept, i dont know). The 'Ideal circle' does not exist, nor can it exist. It is perfect in every way, and to draw a circle is to emulate the notion we hold in our minds of that perfect circle. When we speak of a circle, it is the 'perfect circle' we imagine.

The third step: In the same spirit as our previously mention linguistic 'ideals', so I believe we construct ideals for every concept. Have you ever thought of someone as well-suited to their name? "You really *seem* like a Jenny." Or "Wow, you don't seem like a ___" The "preconceived notion" is a matter of language. Like it or not, if I tell you to picture a man...

Picture a 'man'.

We will tend to picture an idealized form until we put him in some context or begin to describe him.

How many of us thought of a classical Greek form?

It may be personal, but it will also be cultural. And the same is true for the way we perceive women in our culture.

I agree that much of what we think in our culture is propegated by the media, but *we* consume the media and are thus involved in a feedback loop. I also think much of what we think is a matter of human experience. There a specific and measurable sexual traits which communicate physical health and maturity which our minds and bodies are keyed to.

A strong jaw; full hips and breasts; silky hair; full lips; strong musculature... all physical cues that that individual would provide healthy offspring.

So, when we look in a magazine to find a tall, tone, sleek individual with a healthy head of hair, we are looking at the ideal behind the term... a fantasy that exists in the mind, not in reality. And nothing more.

Ultimately each of us is still looking for our personal ideal in another.

[LavenderMenace]

OK, Eric, I agree with most of what you said but here are a few points to ponder:

1. the concept of what an attractive woman is changes over time and between cultures. e.g. the boticelli woman, compared to kate moss, who by the way does not look at all healthy or capable of reproduction. She looks dead. anorexic heroin addict.

2. Look at the rates of anorexia, bulemia, and general low-self-image among women as apposed to men. where do you think that comes from? something tells me women in the 15th century didnt force themselves to vomit cause they thought they were to fat. A recent study showed that 80% of women felt a significant decrease in self-esteem after looking at a fashion magazine for 10 minutes.

3. the of course there's always the good old double standards. when men age they look distinguished. when women age they look old. men who date youger women are congratulated. women who date younger men are scorned, etc. etc. etc.

I could go on and on but you get the point, besides you're one of the less offensive men I know so I wont give you a lecture in feminist studies.

[petrol]

Originally posted by lavendermenace

OK, Eric, I agree with most of what you said but here are a few points to ponder:

1. the concept of what an attractive woman is changes over time and between cultures. e.g. the boticelli woman, compared to kate moss, who by the way does not look at all healthy or capable of reproduction. She looks dead. anorexic heroin addict.

2. Look at the rates of anorexia, bulemia, and general low-self-image among women as apposed to men. where do you think that comes from? something tells me women in the 15th century didnt force themselves to vomit cause they thought they were to fat. A recent study showed that 80% of women felt a significant decrease in self-esteem after looking at a fashion magazine for 10 minutes.

3. the of course there's always the good old double standards. when men age they look distinguished. when women age they look old. men who date youger women are congratulated. women who date younger men are scorned, etc. etc. etc.

I could go on and on but you get the point, besides you're one of the less offensive men I know so I wont give you a lecture in feminist studies.

OK. I'll bite. /Devil's Advocate

1. We are in agreement and this is the experience we all share and currently find distasteful. Most people would agree that rail-thin is unattractive. Look at the heat Callista Flockhart caught for being thin. Beauty is cultural... and biological... If we look at such thin women from a biological perspective we may well find most men less atttracted. However, in our society, beauty has a cultural component... wealth and health.

The Botticelli nude and beauty standard for that time included easy availablity of food as a symbol of status and wealth. In our modern culture, anyone can be fat, and it tends to be a symbol of less wealth and status today.

To be rail-thin... now *that* screams status.

2. The words aren't modern English...

But seriously, If I recall correctly, and thats a big 'if', either the samer study or a similar one also showed the same phenomona beginning ot take hold over men as well. The problem isn't with an unattainable beauty standard being held up by men. The problem is with an unattainable beauty standard being held up by society. The 'womens' magazines of which you speak have disastrous consequences on the self-image of our culture. But by the same token, our consumer society has been pushing that idea that if we dont care for something we can simply discard what we have and shop around for a better one.

That attitude is easily just as much to blame for our concepts of beauty and worth.

I'll try to stay on topic, but this phenomena goes well beyond a simple discussion...

3. Your 'good old double standards' are just that, old. Recent studies do indicate a dramatic increase of the decline of self-image among young men. And for the same reason. 'mens health' magazines and fashion magazines have seen a great increase in subscriber-ship. For each magazine comes the subsequent sizing up we see with the destructive womens magazines.

So, the good news? Men are getting theirs.

We are now a society of equal opportunity offenders. God help you if you are an imperfect man or woman. My guess is this has come about as a result of womens financial power finally beginning to assert itself. Guys finally have to look good... not just have money.

The bad news? Now we can all feel crappy about ourselves.

/Devil's Advocate off

Edit: Spelling error

[dialectics]

eric - i am with you on this one. it is that feedback loop you mentioned involved in media consumption that i feel is responsible for a great deal of idiocy in modern western civilization.

lav - one thing i do not understand is if reading fasion magazines causes so much of a decrease in self esteem, why do women continue to read them? i grew up reading cosmo, until i realized that most of these mags have an agenda to push. why purchase, consume and obsess over something that is damaging to your well being? why listen to somene tell you how you should look, how to dress, how to act, how to behave in bed, how to attract men, and how the type of woman you should become? why buy MORE of these magazines to make yourself like the people in the mags that made you depressed in the first place?

isn't it possible to break the cycle somewhere?

Rob

[dialectics]

petrol: just read your recent post. i like your viewpoint. lets hang out sometime.

rob

[LavenderMenace]

hold your horses there buddy!

I will agree that over the past 500 years the situation of women has improved.

I will also agree that the situation of men as it applies to self-image, physicality, sexuality, and expectation has become more stressful. men are expected to take care of their appearance much more now then ever before. but you know what? considering the advantage that the male gender has had over the past.... oh I don know... ALL TIME. I'm not really boohoo-ing for ya just yet.

IN ADDITION: progress does not equal resolution. just because the balance has shifted doesnt make it any where near even.

Anorexia and bulemia rates are still what they are, and you cant argue that. there are plenty of statistics to back this point. and yes, they have IMPROVED over the years but they still aint nothin to jump for joy over.

Your point on the boticelli is well taken. however: that body type was a lot healthier than heroin-chic, and as a side note we're not talking venus of willendorf here, just boticelli. slightly less "fat" and more, vuluptuous and healthy looking.

now, the question of whether society creates the media image or vice versa. well, thats a whole other arguement, but I have to say that I think your average Joe (or jane) schmo, is taking their cues from the media as opposed to the other way around.

[petrol]

Originally posted by dialectics

eric - i am with you on this one. it is that feedback loop you mentioned involved in media consumption that i feel is responsible for a great deal of idiocy in modern western civilization.

lav - one thing i do not understand is if reading fasion magazines causes so much of a decrease in self esteem, why do women continue to read them? i grew up reading cosmo, until i realized that most of these mags have an agenda to push. why purchase, consume and obsess over something that is damaging to your well being? why listen to somene tell you how you should look, how to dress, how to act, how to behave in bed, how to attract men, and how the type of woman you should become? why buy MORE of these magazines to make yourself like the people in the mags that made you depressed in the first place?

isn't it possible to break the cycle somewhere?

Rob

I know you didnt ask me...

But. Why do we buy magazines which only make us feel like shit?

Because we want to be beautiful and popular and these magazines hold out the hope that this will happen.

We learn this behavior during adolesence and keep it up for most of our lives. And the sad fact is... pretty people are more popular. Thin people get preferential treatment. Tall men get promoted more.. women with long hair get held back more.

Why do we consume this crap? Because of this crap... its a recursive loop.

[LavenderMenace]

Originally posted by dialectics

lav - one thing i do not understand is if reading fasion magazines causes so much of a decrease in self esteem, why do women continue to read them? i grew up reading cosmo, until i realized that most of these mags have an agenda to push. why purchase, consume and obsess over something that is damaging to your well being? why listen to somene tell you how you should look, how to dress, how to act, how to behave in bed, how to attract men, and how the type of woman you should become? why buy MORE of these magazines to make yourself like the people in the mags that made you depressed in the first place?

Rob

ROB- I have NO IDEA. I dont read any of that crap and I never have. my only answer: a lot of women just dont know any better because they have been told since birth that this is how they should be. Just a thought...

[petrol]

Ok, i have to make this a little quick..

Never once have I suggested parity has been reached. Men have held power for (essentially) all of our history.

But I think we are finally, in the US, beginning to see the dawn of some promise of equal treatment of the sexes. But what saddens me is that the promise of the future is not that we will begin to see each other as human, but that we will (apparently) expect the impossible from everyone.

You can see my comment above for my opinion about the beauty myth in the media.

As for my personal expectations of female beauty? I've offered to have a chat over coffee before. ::wink::

See y'all Friday

e

[kjlive]

Petrol, I liked what you had to say. What you said about language is a sentiment shared by many who have studied under post "linguistic turn" professors at college. Very interesting stuff.

I think what LM said is also important. When it all comes down to history and what actually happens to people, women (people of color, gays and lesbians) have historically come up short. Times have changed, but this is still a patriarchal culture we're in, no doubt. And that has real tangible consequences outside of the theory world. This isn't to victimise; we have to all recognise the damage done culturally to women today and in the past and promote progressive solutions that increase our democratic efficacy as a whole.

I like the dialogue, people!

Never thought I'd see it on a clubbing message board.

-Roland Barthes.

oops

I mean kjlive

[ggfella4]

i dont have the patience to read all these long ass posts...so im just gonna say, i think your right!! what i think is right you ask...i have no clue! :tongue: :confused:

peace out

gianni

[dialectics]

Originally posted by kjlive

-Roland Barthes.

there is a name i haven't heard in a while... thank you for taking me back to film school, the damn engineers need to lighten up and have some fun.

oh well... i've got lucien foort blasting on the speakers in the lab i work @.... maybe that'll teach 'em

rob

[blowflyii]

Like girls the way they are. Each woman has something about her that is unique, when you find it that is when she is beautiful.

Some girls do have nice larger butts and have medium to smaller breasts. I hate plastic looking girls. She has to have something quirky and cute about them to be on my list.

[phuturephunk]

. . . I feel obligated to give my intelligent two cents on this conversation . . however . . . I cannot . .

. . . It's all a sham . . . beauty that is . . . class and greed, that will set you free . . or so they tell me . .

. . . I do believe I have too much pain to put in on this post kids . . .

[Xpander]

all i have...