Why Sharon is Talking and Fighting

[dusted]

So are you people saying that the Muslim religion is Pro-Jew and Pro-Christian?

Please.

It IS a fact. If that hurts your feelings, then I'm sorry. If you think its racist and bigoted to point out facts, then thats just one more example of your attempts at thought control, via censorship.

And I guess no one here is up to the challenge of refuting the points I made in my first post on this thread, and backing it up with facts. That's what I thought.

Instead you've all fallen into your lazy habit of namecalling, when you should be getting out your books, and getting to work.

You have all proven, by your avoiding the challenge I have set forth, that none of you have the slightest idea what you're talking about.

[dusted]

What is the Jewish population in this country - 0.4% - why does $400 of every tax payers dollars go to Israel!! Why do I give fuck about Israel? Damage and death caused in 9/11 is directly related to our support of Israel!! WHY

When did Osama Bin Laden ever say anything about Israel?

[dusted]

Old Skool

Registered: Jan 2002

Location:

Posts: 367

Gender: none

LOL Y don't u come to my neighborhood where moslems, christians, and Jews all live peacefully and say bigotted crap like that here? That has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard on the topic of religion. What kind of idiot r u? LOL I'll check this thread this weekend after I've gone clubbing tonite. U all should probably go out and clear yer heads too. These discussions have gone from the heated and somewhat intelligent to the bigotted, now to the just plain ludicrous. Maybe we should all appoint nycmuzik a moderator or something so we can actually have a dialogue, but I doubt that'll help. O well have a good weekend everyone and someone help sassa find a cheap flight, I'm fresh out of ideas myself. Salam, Shalom, Peace, Ahimsa

Prove me wrong.

[ashta]

Instead of trying to get people to prove you wrong, you could try thinking for yourself and having your own opinions and feelings based on logic and reasoning.

Do you read arabic? Because I do, and even though I'm not moslem, I've read the Koran, and no where in does it say "Kill all non-moslems."

But if we were going by that logic, what about the crusades and the spanish aramada? Does this mean that all christians want to kill all non-christians? In addition, there are lots of countries and places where moslems live in peace with christians and jews.

It's people like you (on both sides) that cause trouble with their single mindedness and racism.

As to the other arab countries not taking in the refugees, some of them simply can't. Take Lebanon for example. An economy mainly based on tourism, what do you think the war in the middle east has done for it? The country has one of the highest rates of unemployment and is going bankrupt, and you want them to take in more people so they can all starve together in united arabness?

And lastly, the Israeli government cannot possibly want peace with the actions it's taking.

And I'm just curious, what would holding the body of someone you love, who had only 1/3 of their head do to you? Would it possibly make you want to fight back and take revenge? Just a little?

[dusted]

Instead of trying to get people to prove you wrong, you could try thinking for yourself and having your own opinions and feelings based on logic and reasoning.

Do you read arabic? Because I do, and even though I'm not moslem, I've read the Koran, and no where in does it say "Kill all non-moslems."

But if we were going by that logic, what about the crusades and the spanish aramada? Does this mean that all christians want to kill all non-christians? In addition, there are lots of countries and places where moslems live in peace with christians and jews.

It's people like you (on both sides) that cause trouble with their single mindedness and racism.

As to the other arab countries not taking in the refugees, some of them simply can't. Take Lebanon for example. An economy mainly based on tourism, what do you think the war in the middle east has done for it? The country has one of the highest rates of unemployment and is going bankrupt, and you want them to take in more people so they can all starve together in united arabness?

And lastly, the Israeli government cannot possibly want peace with the actions it's taking.

And I'm just curious, what would holding the body of someone you love, who had only 1/3 of their head do to you? Would it possibly make you want to fight back and take revenge? Just a little?

1. Name me one Muslim country where Muslims, Jews and Christians get along peacefully.

2.If Israel was able to take in hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees (that fled or were expelled from Arab countries), why can't the Arab countries, with so much bigger land mass, take in the Arab refugees.

3. Basically, your post is really dumb, and you were not able to refute any points I made, backed up with facts. Sorry. Try again.

4. You are so biased towards the Arabs its not even funny, for someone who purports to be so unprejudiced.

[dusted]

These were my original points:

Don't any of you see what they are doing? When they[the Arabs] FINALLY realized that they couldn't destroy Israel militarily, (after the six day war), they decided to switch tactics, and destroy Israel with propaganda instead. To turn the world against Israel, by constantly harping about these "refugees", that are a product of the ARABS making, since the ARAB nations didn't take in THEIR OWN PEOPLE! They want to keep them being refugees as an open wound so that the world feels sorry for them and puts pressure on Israel. But the goal is STILL THE SAME- THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL!

ISRAEL, in case you didn't know, took in HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Jewish refugees that fled or were expelled from ARAB nations, these Jews left everything, their homes and possessions, which the ARABS took.

More than 50,000 Jews fled Yemen

123,000 Jews fled Iraq

more than 20,000 Jews fled Egypt

100,000 left Morrocco

And many thousands more from Syria, Tunisia, Algeria, etc.

How come nobody ever mentions this?

Israel took in the Jews, The Arab nations should take in the ARABS

The idea of the Palestinians being a separate nationality from the rest of the Arabs did not emerge until 2 DECADES after Israel was created. In 1948, Arab activist Musa Alami said: "how can people struggle for their nation, when most of them do not know the meaning of the word?...The people are in great need of a 'myth' to fill their consciousness and imagination" According to Alami, an indoctrination of the "myth" of nationality would create "identity" and "self respect". But that idea didn't take hold until AFTER the six day war, when they had to change tactics.

When the Arabs talked about Palestine, it was in the context of ARAB land on which a JEWISH state was intruding. In short, the ARABs wanted all the Arab land exclusively for ARABS. The idea of the lowly Jews having their own state infuriated them.

[crobra]

Originally posted by dusted

When did Osama Bin Laden ever say anything about Israel?

What planet do you live on?

Are you saying that there is no link to the anti american sentiment and US support of Israel!! Who has supported Israel the past 50 years?

Do you really believe Israel would exist today if the US didn't or doesn't support it?

Anyway - my point is that your belief that muslim religion is anti jew or christian is wrong!!! You said it was a fact but you back it up with no facts. But I would like to add that all three religion are against each other in their basics belief - that leads fundamentalist to carry out horrible crimes in the name religion and due to those differences!!

You say Muslims hate jews, and all Jews love muslims?

All christians love Jews or muslims - what about the crusades or the inquisition!!

What you have throughout history is people wrapping their hate in religion and using religion to justify that hate!!

[malone]

"What planet do you live on?

Are you saying that there is no link to the anti american sentiment and US support of Israel!! Who has supported Israel the past 50 years?

Do you really believe Israel would exist today if the US didn't or doesn't support it?

Anyway - my point is that your belief that muslim religion is anti jew or christian is wrong!!! You said it was a fact but you back it up with no facts. But I would like to add that all three religion are against each other in their basics belief - that leads fundamentalist to carry out horrible crimes in the name religion and due to those differences!!

You say Muslims hate jews, and all Jews love muslims?

All christians love Jews or muslims - what about the crusades or the inquisition!!

What you have throughout history is people wrapping their hate in religion and using religion to justify that hate!!"

Oh, where to start. If Israel'S EXISTENCE is contingent on American support then you are saying that the Arabs are the ones posing the threat to that existence. Correct? And if Dusted's "point" is so wrong in saying that the Muslim religion is anti jew and christian then why did you agree with that sentiment in your previous post as well as this one ("all three religions are against each other....")? And actually all three religions share their basic beliefs, namely monothesism, so you are quite incorrect on that point also. The devil, you see is in the details, my friend. I read through all of these posts and don't see where Dusted said that all Jews love muslims, do you? No, of course not. "What about the crusades or the inquisition"? Well, what about them?

[Crackorn]

Arguing about this is going to make as much progress as they are making over there. The situation is fucked up and that's that. getting back to sassa's initial post, both sides may be lucky right now with the people they have in charge. A huge percentage of Israeli's are not happy with Sharon's actions thusfar and the next person in his place might not be as dovish. The reason they put him there in the first place was because he was supposedly a hawk. The same holds true for Arafat. Not that he doesn't support terror and everyone knows he lies all the time about suppressing terror among his people. The next person in his place might be brutal and rally up all the Palestinians to gather together and charge the Jewish neighborhoods, killing at random. Also with Saddam. Rumor has it that his son is even more ruthless than he is.

[bigpoppanils]

Originally posted by dusted

1. Name me one Muslim country where Muslims, Jews and Christians get along peacefully.

2.If Israel was able to take in hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees (that fled or were expelled from Arab countries), why can't the Arab countries, with so much bigger land mass, take in the Arab refugees.

1. Because of people like you who incite hate, there are very few examples. The best ones i can think of are Qatar, Bharain, Egypt, Turkey (well not a good example but they are getting better), and Jordan.

2. Most of the arab countires consist of infertile desert, especially Iraq, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia. Iran and Pakistan have already been strained by and influx of refugees from Afghanistan. Yemen, Oman, Syria, and Lebanon do not have the financial nor humanitarian resources to take in everyone. Turkey has too many problems of its own, and Egypt seems to not want to be bothered anymore. The remaning countires are barely large enough to handle their own population.

[dusted]

So, no one has been able so far to refute my statements with fact.

All they are able to do is offer their stupid opinions, which are based on...nothing I guess, cause no one here has presented any facts.

Malone that was a VERY good point you made, about Israels existence being dependent on America. I wish I'd thought of that. What they mean, obviously, is that if America stopped supporting Israel, Israel would be destroyed by the Arabs. But I thought they said the Arabs weren't against the State of Israel?

[massad]

malone, i gotta disagree with you. For example in 6 day war and the 1973 war, israel won against the arabs without any interference by anyone else. I know you gonna say america gave them weapons and blah blah blah but soviet union which had just as superior of weapons gave them to the arabs so it was balanced out.

And another thing, if any of you stil believe it's israel's fault all this is happening you guys are in la la land. People never change and arafat is the same terrorist that he was when they made up the palestinian cause. WTF is a palestinian anyway???

[malone]

"Do you read arabic? Because I do, and even though I'm not moslem, I've read the Koran, and no where in does it say "Kill all non-moslems"

And now for the good news: the Koran is now being published in english, so Dusted, you can relax, you won't have to learn Arabic as our friend had to. Whew!! You know, I tried to read the Koran on three seperate occasions (the english version) and I just couldn't stay awake. What a crock. It's even more boring than the Bible, if you can believe that.

[flying_high]

Just before I start: Dusted, I'm not going to take you up on the challenge of refuting the points you made in your first post on this thread!!! So stop, throwing that same sentence back at everyone that states his/her opinion here.

You can keep looking down from your high horse and feel righteous and knowledgeable...and that's ok, I really don't care cause all I want to do is state my opinion (and furthermore, I think the points you've made are probably true and that's it).

Anyway, all I want to say regarding to this thread is that I find it very sad that the current political situation all around the world, changes people's beliefs about religion...well, at least mine to some extent. I'm Christian but with all the fighting and violence around us, I really question the value of any religion and the presence of god (I know that this might be bad but I really start losing my faith).

Shouldn't any religion help people to become and lead better lifes in which they respect all other living creatures??? Well, we as the human race are far from these ideals...the question that comes to my mind... are we worth to further inhabitant this planet??? Honestly, I don't think so...and that is pretty sad.

[crobra]

Originally posted by malone

"What planet do you live on?

Are you saying that there is no link to the anti american sentiment and US support of Israel!! Who has supported Israel the past 50 years?

Do you really believe Israel would exist today if the US didn't or doesn't support it?

Anyway - my point is that your belief that muslim religion is anti jew or christian is wrong!!! You said it was a fact but you back it up with no facts. But I would like to add that all three religion are against each other in their basics belief - that leads fundamentalist to carry out horrible crimes in the name religion and due to those differences!!

You say Muslims hate jews, and all Jews love muslims?

All christians love Jews or muslims - what about the crusades or the inquisition!!

What you have throughout history is people wrapping their hate in religion and using religion to justify that hate!!"

Oh, where to start. If Israel'S EXISTENCE is contingent on American support then you are saying that the Arabs are the ones posing the threat to that existence. Correct? And if Dusted's "point" is so wrong in saying that the Muslim religion is anti jew and christian then why did you agree with that sentiment in your previous post as well as this one ("all three religions are against each other....")? And actually all three religions share their basic beliefs, namely monothesism, so you are quite incorrect on that point also. The devil, you see is in the details, my friend. I read through all of these posts and don't see where Dusted said that all Jews love muslims, do you? No, of course not. "What about the crusades or the inquisition"? Well, what about them?

What is your point - So arabs are a threat to Israel's existence - what does that have to do with Christianity!! He is wrong in saying that religion itself is anit-jew, because where in the Koran does it say it!! What I was trying to say is that people have used religion to justify a lot of shit!! What about the crusades and the inquistion - well if the devil is in the details - you can say that those events are basically about the christian religion being anti Jew and muslim (or the religion being used to support those actions)!!! The devil is the details - Christian's believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah - Do Jews share the same belief?

no - How about muslims - no - Isn't that the basis of the christian religion - yes - although there is a similar belief in a monothesism, there some big differences in the religions - infact - that is what makes them different religions!! So your whole point of them being similar is quite wrong - there is no christian religion without Christ - I think that is pretty big "detail" to overlook - so I guess the devil is in the details. Do all Jew love muslims - I never stated that he said that, I was just pointing out how this is a two way street - Muslims are anit-jew, Jews are anit-muslim - I think the current conflict proves that! I think you should go look at the details some more!! I am just pointing out that all three religions have their basic belief's, and that's what make them different. People exploit this to create conflicts and hate between the religions, but where in those in religions does it tell people to be against the other - I don't know - please share!!!

[malone]

"malone, i gotta disagree with you. For example in 6 day war and the 1973 war, israel won against the arabs without any interference by anyone else. I know you gonna say america gave them weapons and blah blah blah but soviet union which had just as superior of weapons gave them to the arabs so it was balanced out.

And another thing, if any of you stil believe it's israel's fault all this is happening you guys are in la la land. People never change and arafat is the same terrorist that he was when they made up the palestinian cause. WTF is a palestinian anyway???"

Massad, you can disagree with me all you want to, but I, on the other hand, entirely agree with you, so there. But the real focus of my point was that the post I was referring to was self- contradictory. I accept your criticism though.

[dusted]

Just before I start: Dusted, I'm not going to take you up on the challenge of refuting the points you made in your first post on this thread!!! So stop, throwing that same sentence back at everyone that states his/her opinion here.

You can keep looking down from your high horse and feel righteous and knowledgeable...and that's ok, I really don't care cause all I want to do is state my opinion (and furthermore, I think the points you've made are probably true and that's it).

Anyway, all I want to say regarding to this thread is that I find it very sad that the current political situation all around the world, changes people's beliefs about religion...well, at least mine to some extent. I'm Christian but with all the fighting and violence around us, I really question the value of any religion and the presence of god (I know that this might be bad but I really start losing my faith).

Shouldn't any religion help people to become and lead better lifes in which they respect all other living creatures??? Well, we as the human race are far from these ideals...the question that comes to my mind... are we worth to further inhabitant this planet??? Honestly, I don't think so...and that is pretty sad.

So basically you are just offering us more opinion, not based on facts. Opinions that you just pulled out of the air. *yawn*

[dusted]

The Jewish religion cannot be anti Muslim, since it predates Islam by thousands of years.

There are plenty of quotes in the Koran and the Hadith that are anti Jewish.

Furthermore, Islam is as Islam does. And Islam has treated Jews horribly, has totally subjugated them, and unltimately, the Islamic countries have pretty much expelled all their Jews. Half the population of Israel, the Sephardic Jews, are Jews that were expelled or fled from Muslim countries.

[bigpoppanils]

you said that israel took in jews that fled countries in the middle east, and therefore it should be their rightful home

sweden took in thousands of jews during the 1930's and 1940's. Does that mean we should kick out all the swedes living there and make that a jewish state also?

ps: I am not anit-semetic, just trying to understand dusted's logic...although he is probably going to twist that around also.

[bigpoppanils]

there are lots of statements in the Bible that are anti-jew as well, such as the the story of jesus

[dusted]

1. Because of people like you who incite hate, there are very few examples. The best ones i can think of are Qatar, Bharain, Egypt, Turkey (well not a good example but they are getting better), and Jordan.

2. Most of the arab countires consist of infertile desert, especially Iraq, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia. Iran and Pakistan have already been strained by and influx of refugees from Afghanistan. Yemen, Oman, Syria, and Lebanon do not have the financial nor humanitarian resources to take in everyone. Turkey has too many problems of its own, and Egypt seems to not want to be bothered anymore. The remaning countires are barely large enough to handle their own population.

__________________

1. Don't blame Muslim Jew hating on me. The countries, you list as being so jew-friendly, what are you basing that on? It was my understanding that Jordan does not allow Jews to reside in their country. Do you see anything pertaining to Jews on this site?:

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-------------------

2. What do you mean that these countries you mentioned were "already strained by their Afghan refugees" ? The Palestinians have been refugees for decades now! Why haven't they taken them in? Why doesn't Saudi Arabia or Iraq or Egypt take them in? The Saudis certainly can absorb them.

why are they taking in Afghans and not Palestinians? Could it be that its all political? HMMMM.

3 Your reasons for the Arabs not taking in their own people are pathetic, the land mass they have and the oil money, does not give them any excuse. Israel took in HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Jews from the Arab countries, when it was only a very young country. Not to mention that Israel is a tiny sliver of a nation compared to the Arab world. Its just no excuse.

[wallflour]

Originally posted by dusted

1. Don't blame Muslim Jew hating on me. The countries, you list as being so jew-friendly, what are you basing that on? It was my understanding that Jordan does not allow Jews to reside in their country. Do you see anything pertaining to Jews on this site?:

I believe Arafat is banned from Jordan

Also, I wonder why it's only Israel that has to give land to the Palestinians.

I've heard that the Arabs all hate each other. I guess the thing that unites them is that they all hate Israel.

I've also heard that on the streets of Kuwait, at intersections, Palestinians have to yield to Kuwaitis (compare to the US, and probably most civilized countries, where it's whoever got there first who gets to go through first)

There ain't much love for each other out there!

[flying_high]

Originally posted by dusted

So basically you are just offering us more opinion, not based on facts. Opinions that you just pulled out of the air. *yawn*

Yep that's basically what I do... and I don't consider it worse (or better) than all of your arrogant talk...btw: this opinion is actually based on the fact that your attitude and way of argumentation is a very arrogant one.

Facts for that:

dusted:

"All they are able to do is offer their stupid opinions, which are based on...nothing ..."

"Basically, your post is really dumb" etc.

[dusted]

sweden took in thousands of jews during the 1930's and 1940's. Does that mean we should kick out all the swedes living there and make that a jewish state also?

Sweden is a nation. Palestine was NEVER a nation. Most of the so called "Palestinians" were only recent immigrants to the region, from Egypt and other Arab countries. They came there because of the economic opportunity in Palestine.(that the Jews brought) They were NOT there from time immemmorial, like they like to claim. The Jews had JUST as much right to the area. The Arabs started getting irritated at all these Jews, and demanded the British halt all Jewish immigration into Palestine. The Arabs kept starting trouble with the Jews because they thought they were "taking over". The UN wanted to divide the areas into one Jewish and one Palestinian state, with Jerusalem being separate. The Arabs rejected it. When Israel declared independence, all the Arab nations attacked them, hence the "refugees" These refugees have no right to come back to a country that they made war on. A very large portion of them left their homes voluntarily, so that the Arabs could slaughter the Jews more easily.

Now, given that Israel has taken in so many Jewish refugees from the Arab nations, leaving a huge gap in these countries, why aren't these Arab nations taking in an equal number of Arab refugees? Why are these refugees, who were not really natives to Palestine, insisting on living there, when they could just be resettled in Arab nations and be with their own people?

Furthermore, The State of Israel did not necessarily have to mean that no Muslims could live there, but after they attacked, it certainly did.

[dusted]

Yep that's basically what I do... and I don't consider it worse (or better) than all of your arrogant talk...btw: this opinion is actually based on the fact that your attitude and way of argumentation is a very arrogant one.

Facts for that:

dusted:

"All they are able to do is offer their stupid opinions, which are based on...nothing ..."

"Basically, your post is really dumb"

I don't really care if you think I'm arrogant. No. your opinion is based on your opinion. It is not a fact that my attitude is arrogant, it is an opinion.

It is my opinion, that you are very uninformed and biased as regards this subject, but you don't have any facts to back your opinions up. You keep giving the same opinions over and over.

Opinion does not count in a political debate. Opinion is not the same as political or historical analysis. It is hard to analyze a situation when you do not understand the origins of the situation.

Obviously, the people on this board don't understand the origins, or they would have taken up the challenge presented to them.