Why Sharon is Talking and Fighting

[malone]

Look Crobra, the fact remains that the three religions in question have much more in common than they don't: they all maintain, in the absence of any evidence, that there is ONE GOD whose in charge of running the whole show, including, though by no means limited to, this board you're on right now. Got it?? It all sprang from the same source, namely, a bunch of wandering nomads in need of a identity, and a few rules to keep the crowd in line. All the rest is just incidental fluff. My prophet is better than your prophet, so to speak. And actually, by your silly scratching around to show otherwise, you just gave ample demonstration of how this nonsense gets perpetuated.

[flying_high]

Originally posted by dusted

It is not a fact that my attitude is arrogant, it is an opinion.

Wrong...calling people's views stupid and dumb, does not present an openminded person...but a very arrogant one as you believe that you're statements are sooo much more factual and correct than everyone else's

...that you are...biased as regards this subject

please show me were exactly you can find my opinion and what direction I am actually leaning towards (I would be really interested to know)

You keep giving the same opinions over and over..

...mmmhh, so let me get this straight....I stated my opinion on religion altogether once, and then one more post on your arrogance....yeah I can really see how this is the same opinion over and over again

Opinion does not count in a political debate. Opinion is not the same as political or historical analysis. It is hard to analyze a situation when you do not understand the origins of the situation.

Obviously, the people on this board don't understand the origins, or they would have taken up the challenge presented to them.

You are totally right here and noone says this is a political message board with people having a degree in politics or history ...sorry, if you're looking for a true analysis and discussion, I suggest you try some more 'intellectual' board than this one....cause last time I checked this was still the NYC Club board.

[malone]

you said that israel took in jews that fled countries in the middle east, and therefore it should be their rightful home

sweden took in thousands of jews during the 1930's and 1940's. Does that mean we should kick out all the swedes living there and make that a jewish state also

I don't believe that this is an accurate characterization of what Dusted said. You see, the Jews are quit content with one home, and therefore would have no wish to " kick out all the swedes" as you so eloquently put it. One Jewish state appears to suffice, as the Jewish population is not big into proselytizing. Also, Israel clearly didn't kick out all of the Arabs as there are somewhere in the region of one million (perhaps more) living there as we speak. All of whom have more rights than they would enjoy were they to live in any of their neighbouring Arab countries.

[Crackorn]

90% of all wars occuring at this moment involves Muslims.

[malone]

You are totally right here and noone says this is a political message board with people having a degree in politics or history ...sorry, if you're looking for a true analysis and discussion, I suggest you try some more 'intellectual' board than this one....cause last time I checked this was still the NYC Club board.

The message board may not be political, but the message sure is. This topic is political though, at least the last time I checked, and if you're looking for something, oh say, a little more clubby, may I respectfully suggest the hundred or so other threads available to you right here. You're quite welcome.

[malone]

Anyway, all I want to say regarding to this thread is that I find it very sad that the current political situation all around the world, changes people's beliefs about religion...well, at least mine to some extent. I'm Christian but with all the fighting and violence around us, I really question the value of any religion and the presence of god (I know that this might be bad but I really start losing my faith).

Why do you think it's such a bad thing that you may question your religion, or even lose your faith? After all ,if you don't have faith, and if you continue to hold a belief, then presumably it will be because you have evidence for that belief. Faith is just some belief that we have absent any corroborating evidence. Do you feel guilty about using your (God- given??) critical faculties to analyse the evidence for or against the existence a supernatural being.

[malone]

please show me were exactly you can find my opinion and what direction I am actually leaning towards (I would be really interested to know

Now, I would wager that you a leaning toward Dusted, of all people, in this debate. And the evidence you ask?? Well, how about this: " and furthermore, I think the points you've made are probably true...."

[wallflour]

DaVe, set up a Politics (or News/Current Events) board!

I haven't come across anything like it anywhere else on the internet, that has an interface as good as this

Strange as it may sounds, it seems that there are a good number of clubbers who have an interest in talking about this kind of stuff

[sassa]

Originally posted by dusted

That has NOTHING to do with what I said. WHAT I SAID WAS, that the Muslim religion, is anti-Jew (and anti Christian)

It is a FACT. I don't care whether its right or wrong, its still a FACT.

This is bullshit. During the last few centuries when Jews were getting the shit beaten out of them,and being constantly harassed and persecuted in mainly Eastern Europe, especially Russia...ever heard of pogroms? Jews there had to endure that kind of treatment from their host countries, while Jews under the Ottoman Empire were given the millet class and given the right to freely and without persecution practice their religion and retain their culture,so long as they respected the religion of the majority Sunni Muslims.

It also says in the Quran that a Muslim man is permitted to marry a Jewish and Christian woman as well, being that they are both "people of the book".

Your argument that Islam is anti-Semitic is pure and absolute BULLSHIT...for fuck's sake, are you so ignorant that you do not know that Arabs are semitic as well? It also is said is the holy books that they are of the same brethren...if you want to see it from a religious point of view, Abraham had two sons...Jacob and Issac, the former is known as the father of the Jewish people, and Issac the father of the Arabs...

These two people are more culturally bound than most peoples. It's just their religious zeal and immense distrust for each other that gets in the way...

What is sad is that there are many Israelis and Arabs that want to have peace and constantly try to speak out to the government...but of course the governments are going to do as they please...it's become a war of power, wits, who will come out on top....and it's taking the lives of so many innocents...how fucked up are we as the human race....

[bigpoppanils]

*APPLAUSE*

[flying_high]

Originally posted by malone

Now, I would wager that you a leaning toward Dusted, of all people, in this debate. And the evidence you ask?? Well, how about this: " and furthermore, I think the points you've made are probably true...."

well next time you read a message I suggest you read the whole thing...

...the reason I stated that his statements might be right is..that I don't believe I have the political or historical knowledge to truly argue/discuss all statements made. (I only wanted to express my opinion about religion alltogether).

You can call me not intellectual enough...but at least I admit that I'm not the "all-knowing" person here (THAT's ALL that I tried to express with that statement).

And if you would learn to read the entire message than you might see that my comment about this not being a political board only derived from the accusation that:

"Obviously, the people on this board don't understand the origins, or they would have taken up the challenge presented to them. "

So anyway, you keep coming back and forth for the arguing sake of it... cause that's what this is all about, right?!

[crobra]

Originally posted by malone

Look Crobra, the fact remains that the three religions in question have much more in common than they don't: they all maintain, in the absence of any evidence, that there is ONE GOD whose in charge of running the whole show, including, though by no means limited to, this board you're on right now. Got it?? It all sprang from the same source, namely, a bunch of wandering nomads in need of a identity, and a few rules to keep the crowd in line. All the rest is just incidental fluff. My prophet is better than your prophet, so to speak. And actually, by your silly scratching around to show otherwise, you just gave ample demonstration of how this nonsense gets perpetuated.

I'm not the one perpetuating anything - you just stated: "All the rest is just incidental fluff. My prophet is better than your prophet, so to speak. " I'm very sorry, but Jesus Christ is a little more than a prophet to the Christian Religion, he is the basis of the religion. I don't think that Jesus Christ is incidental fluff to a Christian, so I don't see how I am scratching around. If they were so similar, they wouldn't be different religions - they just be different denominations like Christian orthodox, Catholic, etc...

Your generalization is what perpetuates this nonsense, instead of trying to understand and tolerate others people's religious belief!!

[malone]

I'm not the one perpetuating anything - you just stated: "All the rest is just incidental fluff. My prophet is better than your prophet, so to speak. " I'm very sorry, but Jesus Christ is a little more than a prophet to the Christian Religion, he is the basis of the religion. I don't think that Jesus Christ is incidental fluff to a Christian, so I don't see how I am scratching around. If they were so similar, they wouldn't be different religions - they just be different denominations like Christian orthodox, Catholic, etc...

Your generalization is what perpetuates this nonsense, instead of trying to understand and tolerate others people's religious belief!!

__________________

Face it: all religion is bogus nonsense. No need to waste half my life trying to understand why people BELIEVE in any particular religion: They do so because Mommy and Daddy told them that this is how it is, and society simply reinforces that view. It's a big old comfort blanket for people who dread to face their own mortality. And of course it helps keep the rabble in line. Now, on the other hand if you can furnish evidence to the contrary I'd be delighted to have a gander. But I want real evidence here. None of the usual bs please, like " just look around you, where did it all come from, if not God?"

[malone]

well next time you read a message I suggest you read the whole thing...

...the reason I stated that his statements might be right is..that I don't believe I have the political or historical knowledge to truly argue/discuss all statements made. (I only wanted to express my opinion about religion alltogether).

You can call me not intellectual enough...but at least I admit that I'm not the "all-knowing" person here (THAT's ALL that I tried to express with that statement

Well,I did in fact read you entire post and what I posted was in FACT what you said. Nothing was taken out of context. Indeed, in your whining retort you go on to confirm that you did actually say it.You then go on to offer the explaination/apology that you only conceded this point because you didn't have enough knowledge of the subject . Fair enough. In itself, ignorance is not a crime just yet. The curious thing to me in all of this is , why you would agree that another individual, Dusted, is probably correct, given that, by your own admission and by your mea culpa comments, you aren't actually equipped to make this judgement call. Frankly, it's a ludicrous position to put yourself in. Sounds a little fawning to me also. Just thought I'd ask.

[malone]

Your argument that Islam is anti-Semitic is pure and absolute BULLSHIT...for fuck's sake, are you so ignorant that you do not know that Arabs are semitic as well? It also is said is the holy books that they are of the same brethren...if you want to see it from a religious point of view, Abraham had two sons...Jacob and Issac, the former is known as the father of the Jewish people, and Issac the father of the Arabs...

Firstly, It is extremely presumptious of you to state that Dusted is not aware that the Arabs are semitic also. No indication of such ignorance was evident by any of the post. What is quite evident, however, is your nit-picking ways, presumably to make your case appear more solid. With that in mind, I offer you the following definition from none other than "The American Heritage Dictionary Of The English Language": Anti-Semitic -- A person who is hostile to or prejudiced against Jews. Random House gives an identical definition. Alas, not an Arab in sight. Your argument , therefore, amounts to nothing more than sophistry. Sorry, do try again.

[malone]

So anyway, you keep coming back and forth for the arguing sake of it... cause that's what this is all about, right?!

Let me see if I understand you correctly: I keep responding to posts because I want to argue, and you keep responding to post because you want....? Hmm!

[spacemanspiff]

A reply to your 3 points above:

1) There are a handful of jews in the world to begin with and most of them have immigrated to developed countries such as the US and Israel. Why would you expect there to be significant jewish populations in Arab countries?

2) There are millions (not hundreds of thousands as Jewish refugees) of palestinian refugees. Many of who are refugees in countries such as Jordan and Lebanon. (Remember that Lebanese Refugee camp that Sharon slaughtered all those Palestinians in the early 80's? That was in Lebanon.) These millions of refugees can't just be shucked off into the four corners of the earth because it is more convenient for the US or Israel. Furthermore, it is not Saudi Arabia's nor any other Arab country's responsibility to settle Palestinians because Israel needs to expand (Didn't the Germans use the idea of Lebernsaum **spelling** to justify their actions, sounds sort of similiar).

3) As I said above, it is not other Arab countries job to take in people displaced by Israel. If it was, what sort of message does that send out: You can displace all the people you want, we will find room.

I am not anti Israel anti-semetic, I just think the Palestinians are getting a raw deal.

A fun fact: Did you know the state of Israel displaces more Palestinians then there are in Jews in Israel.

[massad]

Originally posted by spacemanspiff

A reply to your 3 points above:

A fun fact: Did you know the state of Israel displaces more Palestinians then there are in Jews in Israel.

yeah ookkkkkk there buddy. there are more people in israel than there are "palestinians" so i duno where you get your facts from

[dusted]

yeah ookkkkkk there buddy. there are more people in israel than there are "palestinians" so i duno where you get your facts from

He pulls his "facts" out of his ass.

[dusted]

Originally posted by sassa

This is bullshit. During the last few centuries when Jews were getting the shit beaten out of them,and being constantly harassed and persecuted in mainly Eastern Europe, especially Russia...ever heard of pogroms? Jews there had to endure that kind of treatment from their host countries, while Jews under the Ottoman Empire were given the millet class and given the right to freely and without persecution practice their religion and retain their culture,so long as they respected the religion of the majority Sunni Muslims.

It also says in the Quran that a Muslim man is permitted to marry a Jewish and Christian woman as well, being that they are both "people of the book".

Your argument that Islam is anti-Semitic is pure and absolute BULLSHIT...for fuck's sake, are you so ignorant that you do not know that Arabs are semitic as well? It also is said is the holy books that they are of the same brethren...if you want to see it from a religious point of view, Abraham had two sons...Jacob and Issac, the former is known as the father of the Jewish people, and Issac the father of the Arabs...

These two people are more culturally bound than most peoples. It's just their religious zeal and immense distrust for each other that gets in the way...

What is sad is that there are many Israelis and Arabs that want to have peace and constantly try to speak out to the government...but of course the governments are going to do as they please...it's become a war of power, wits, who will come out on top....and it's taking the lives of so many innocents...how fucked up are we as the human race....

I don't know where to start here.

Number 1, if you would read more carefully, you would see that I specifically said "Jew hater" and not "anti Semitic", since I anticipated your silly hairsplitting response. Nevertheless, Malone should have set you straight on the meaning of "anti-Semitic" I trust you won't trot that one out again.

Secondly, the thing that Tribal posted about the Jews using the Muslim blood was propagated by the Saudi Government, and is nothing more than a continuation of the infamous "Blood Libels" that have occurred from time to time in Arab countries, such as the one in Syria in 1840 that brought about the death torture, and pillage of countless Jews falsely acacused of murdering a priest and his servant to collect the blood for Passover matzo.

These "blood libels" were not isolated incidents, and as we can see, they have been resurrected by the Saudis.

Now, you want to talk about pogroms? Ok, let's.

After the Jews who lived in what is now Saudi Arabia were expelled or destroyed by the Prophet Mohammad, Jewish communities in all the Muslim territories fell under "infidel" status; as such they were considered inferior.

In Adan in December 1947, caused in part by anti-Jewish broadcasts from Egypt, there was a devastating pogram, in which 82 Jews were murdered and 76 wounded, approximately 100 shops were robbed, 4 synagogues were burned down, and a 200 Jewish homes were burned or robbed. For months after, the Jews were terrified to venture out of the "Jewish Quarter"

Thousands of Aden Jews were airlifted out of there to Israel after that. After the Six-day War, the remainder of them fled with the help of the British, when they discovered that the Arabs were planning to massacre what remained of them.

In Iraq, in 1941, following general violence against Jews(murders by mobs, bombs in synagogues, etc) a massacre occurred in which hundreds of Jews were killed. Hundreds more were wounded, and over a thousand Jewish homes and business looted and destroyed. From that time on, it seems there was a program of systematically destroying the Jewish community. Jews suffered torture, imprisonment without charge etc.

After Israels war of independance, Zionism became a capital crime, and Jews were publicly hanged in the center of Baghdad. The Jews were also stripped of millions of dollars by the government, through "voluntary donations" , appropriation of property, etc.

By the time 1950 rolled around, most of Iraqs 130,000 Jews had fled to Israel and other places.

There were numerous "blood libels" in Egypt, and starting in the 1940's, there were many organized anti-Jewish riots, and about 20,000 Jews fled. During the Six Day War, Jews were arrested and put in concentration camps where they were abused and tortured. By 1970, most of Egypts 75,000 Jews had left for Israel.

In Morrocco, Jews were forced to live in separate ghettos. Rapes and looting, burning of synagogues, murder, were common. In 1032, 6000 Jews were murdered, in 1146, 100,000 killed. In 1948, there was more anti-Jewish violence, resulting in many deaths. But around 1960, 200,000 Morroccan Jews had fled to Israel.

Now, I can go on and on, but I hope it's not necessary. I haven't even mentioned the regular, daily humiliations suffered by the Jews at the hands of the Muslims, such as special taxes, no right to testify against a Muslim, the fact that Jews had to always defer to Muslims, and the general subjugation to Muslims.

Hopefully, you will come to see, eventually, that this idea you have about Jews being treated well in Muslim countries, is pure fantasy, fantasy that is being spread by Arab propagandists.

For if you want to know if a country is good or not, just check out which way the people are going. Hundreds of thousands of people don't just give up everything and leave a country, unless the conditions are intolerable. All those Jews didn't leave for no reason. You don't see that many American Jews fleeing to Israel, because theres no reason to.

And one more thing, Jews are not religious zealots. Jews do not prosyletize, do not try to convert, they just want to be left alone to be Jews. You cannot say the same for Muslims. The entire history of Islam from the get-go has been replete with aggression, conquest and forced conversions. Any religious zealotry on display is coming from Islam, not Judaism.

So please, try to get your facts straight next time.

[dusted]

Originally posted by spacemanspiff

A reply to your 3 points above:

1) There are a handful of jews in the world to begin with and most of them have immigrated to developed countries such as the US and Israel. Why would you expect there to be significant jewish populations in Arab countries?

2) There are millions (not hundreds of thousands as Jewish refugees) of palestinian refugees. Many of who are refugees in countries such as Jordan and Lebanon. (Remember that Lebanese Refugee camp that Sharon slaughtered all those Palestinians in the early 80's? That was in Lebanon.) These millions of refugees can't just be shucked off into the four corners of the earth because it is more convenient for the US or Israel. Furthermore, it is not Saudi Arabia's nor any other Arab country's responsibility to settle Palestinians because Israel needs to expand (Didn't the Germans use the idea of Lebernsaum **spelling** to justify their actions, sounds sort of similiar).

3) As I said above, it is not other Arab countries job to take in people displaced by Israel. If it was, what sort of message does that send out: You can displace all the people you want, we will find room.

I am not anti Israel anti-semetic, I just think the Palestinians are getting a raw deal.

A fun fact: Did you know the state of Israel displaces more Palestinians then there are in Jews in Israel.

On the contrary, I think you are anti-Israel, judging by your post.

1. The reason there are no Jews in Arab countries, is because they all fled for their lives or were expelled, as noted in my above post. Half the population of Israel are Jews that came from Arab countries. Israel, a tiny little nation, took all of them in, and continues to take in any Jew, from anywhere in the world. The Jews take care of their own, in contrast to the Arabs, who let their people languish in camps to use them for Anti-Jewish political purposes.

2. It is their responsibility actually, since they started the war against Israel that caused all these refugees.(And subsequent wars, which yielded even more refugees) If you'll notice, the Arabs who did not flee Israel during the War of Independence, are now Israeli citizens.

3. What kind of message does it send to the Arabs, if they continuously make war on Israel, but theres no price to pay for it? That violence will achieve their ends? The Arabs keep making war, and everytime, Israel has to take back the "refugees", and give back all the land it takes in the course of these wars? Don't you think that sends the message that its ok to attack Israel, since theres no consequences?

[wallflour]

Originally posted by dusted

He pulls his "facts" out of his ass.

Yup, it would help to put up a link of where the facts were reported. However, all that you read should be taken with a grain of salt, cuz that's the way news is these days.

Like this:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020314/ap_on_re_mi_ea/palestinians_lynching_4

I think the Palestinians have some elements with whom peace will never be achieved... like those who drag bodies through the streets

Their situation seems to have come down to this: Either kill them first or be killed

Take care of them first, and then all parties involved can talk more seriously about achieving a real peace

[malone]

3) As I said above, it is not other Arab countries job to take in people displaced by Israel. If it was, what sort of message does that send out: You can displace all the people you want, we will find room.

I am not anti Israel anti-semetic, I just think the Palestinians are getting a raw deal.

Regardless of whose job you think it is to take in Palestinians, one fact should be obvious: It sure as hell ain't going to be Israel who does it. So you had better look for another solution. Now as to your assertion that there are millions of displaced Palestinians out there, well, where did you get that information from?? Furthermore, Is it the job of Arab countries to sponsor terrorism all over the region? Just wondering want kind of jobs you think the Arabs may be suitable for.

[ashta]

You know what?

When I see some of your refences and bibliographies, then I'll feel the need to provide my own.

For the time being all I can provide you with is an eye-witness account of some of the things I've seen.

I'm may be half arab, but I also have jewish and israeli friends.

And I don't hate jews aor israeilis in general, I hate people who who are bloodthirsty fanatics (on both sides), and I sure as hell hate the Israeli government for not trying to make an effort to stop the violence, and instead issues threats and carries many of them out.

I hate the israeli goverment for killing my people, in more ways than one. When they bomb UN refugee camps and bomb them again two hours later when they know the firemen are trying to put the fires out and drag out as many of the bodies and pieces of bodies as they can, only to end up as nothing more than some charred bits of flesh and splatters on the wall. And then they have the nerve to call it an accident. If you want your "facts" look up Quana.

In fact I hate politicians in general, because most of them are filthy minded bastards who don't give a shit about the country they're running and even if they harm their own people as long as they gain their own ends, no matter how many lives are lost along the way.

[malone]

I hate the israeli goverment for killing my people, in more ways than one. When they bomb UN refugee camps and bomb them again two hours later when they know the firemen are trying to put the fires out and drag out as many of the bodies and pieces of bodies as they can, only to end up as nothing more than some charred bits of flesh and splatters on the wall. And then they have the nerve to call it an accident. If you want your "facts" look up Quana

Do you hate the Palestinians terrorist when they blow to pieces little Israeli children? And when they set off explosions when ambulances are arriving on the scene of a suicide bombing, as they did a few weeks ago? Where those innocent CIVILIANS end up as nothing more than charred bits of flesh and splatters on the wall? And then the Palestinians responsible have the nerve to call it an accident, as I saw them do on an NBC interview last week. You claim to hate "bloodthirsty fanatics, on both sides" yet you could only find it in your heart to attempt to bring our focus on Israeli violence against Palestinians. I suppose the other crowd just doesn't merit the same concern. Which is kind of strange, given you claim only to hate the Israeli government. Yet the great majority of the Israeli victims here are not soldiers or other government agents. The thrust of your entire post was : Israel bad, Palestinian good. Look, I have no problem with you identifying with your "people" in this dispute. That's an understandable position. But don't delude yourself into believing that your point, and that of other Arabs, is the only legitimate interpretation of the conflict. You tell us you have "jewish and Israeli friends" presumably in order to appear as a reasonable person, which you may well be. But it is also intended to confer the sense that we are about to receive a more balanced point of view here, otherwise why raise it in the first place. It's a subterfuge, and I can't imagine it will fool too many.