Why Sharon is Talking and Fighting

[kramadas]

Originally posted by malone

As to raver mania, lets have a wee glimpse at his most recent offereings. As I predicted, the value of the links would be dismissed as worthless as they were pro- Israeli. How unusual. In other words, you offered links to sites which supported your view, and they are rejected, precisely for this reason. Presumably he was expecting pro-Palestinian sites?? Like I explained yesterday, this guy won't even hear of anything that challenges his view. His solution to this imbalance? Why the old stalwart of the British left, The Guardian. Ah yea. I lived in London for three years and read it on a regular basis and still do. And I witnessed all this time its strong leanings toward the Palestinians. I also happened to notice that it wasn't nearly so sympathetic To Irish Republican Army actions. Perhaps that would have something to do with the Proximity of the conflict. Its very hip supporting the Palestinians as they are unlikely to spontaneously combust in the heart of Oxford street. And whenever the IRA would carry out attacks in London, as they often did, there would be a major outcry for harsher police action. This, despite the fact that the IRA never came even close to the Barbarity exhibited by the various Palestinian outfits. Many completely innocent Irish people were rounded up; some even served very long prison sentences for offences they had absolutely nothing to do with. The beloved Guardian, unfortunately couldn't bring itself to do the kind of coverage you laud them for here. Why?? Perhaps it would adversely affect the old bottom line. There's an old saying that's apt here: It is easy to sleep on another man's wounds.

Malone, or should I say, Dusted - as usual you contradict yourself. On the one hand, you're blasting me for not having a "balanced" viewpoint, but on the other hand my earlier links are being dismissed as being pro-Palestinian. What is it man - make up your mind!

The only reason I post pro-Palestinian sites is to counter your blatantly pro-Israeli viewpoints. There lies the balance. And in all this, I have yet to see even ONE site to back up your opinions. God forbid, you ever write a research paper.

And tell me where I said that the Guardian was completely un-biased. Tell me, which media is completley unbiased. Show me the connection between them reporting on the IRA and reporting in the Middle East. Whats your point regarding the many innocent Irish youths being rounded up - just because they were not mentioned in the Guardian, the Palestians being rounded up should not be reported either? Or is it OK to round up the Palestinians since the same was done to the innocent Irish youth? I say they're BOTH wrong...however, I didn't know much about the IRish situation, otherwise I would have been as outspoken. What YOUR point is I do not know.

BTW, do plan on refuting anything in the Guardian article, or are you just trying to digress from the subject?

I'm close to the end of my patience with the two of you bigots (again, pls refer to the definition of bigot I posted before). In my view, the killings on both sides are wrong and parties like Islamic Jihad and Hamas need to be disintegrated and/or jailed. However, the atrocities committed by the IDF also has to stop, and atrocities they are. And its about time they started treating their own citizens equally, without seizing arab owned land for "nature preserves", spraying toxic chemicals on crops, or otherwise oppressing the rights of Israeli Arabs.

[dusted]

I'm close to the end of my patience with the two of you bigots (again, pls refer to the definition of bigot I posted before). In my view, the killings on both sides are wrong and parties like Islamic Jihad and Hamas need to be disintegrated and/or jailed. However, the atrocities committed by the IDF also has to stop, and atrocities they are. And its about time they started treating their own citizens equally, without seizing arab owned land for "nature preserves", spraying toxic chemicals on crops, or otherwise oppressing the rights of Israeli Arabs

--------------------

OOh I'm scared. :laugh:

So who is going to be the one to "disintegrate" or "jail" Islamic Jihad and Hamas? Hmmm? How do you find them, when they are hiding out amongst the regular PA's?

Israel would be pretty damn stupid to let Arabs, even Israeli Arabs in their army at this time, don't you think? That's a pretty ludicrous statement. Maybe some day when the "troubles" are over, but not now. At this time, and this is all the fault of the Arabs, the Arabs are considered enemies, it doesn't matter that they are citizens. They are free to go it they want to, they don't have to stay.

Why is it that you are more concerned with the way Arabs are treated in Israel than you are with the way Arabs are treated in Arab countries?

Where do your statistics concerning the 80 percent of Palestinian land being taken by the Israelis come from? You have records of which people owned plots of land? Please post this information. I want to check these statistics out.

As far as your last statement, about the Israeli Arabs "rising up" against their Jewish oppressors, what a load of cak. The biggest problem Israel has is with the "refugees" not the citizens. If the Arabs weren't so hostile to Israel in general, from the very beginning, they wouldn't have these problems. As it is, the Israel Arabs have it better than say, the Afghans, or the Arabs from other countries, so I don't know what their complaining about.

Now, I have refuted many of your claims in previous posts, I would like you to acknowledge that.

If I have to post anti Jewish quotes from the Koran and the Hadith, I will. But I think you should realize that Islam is as Islam does, and the persecution of Jews in Muslim countries was done in the name of Islam and continues to be done in the name of Islam today.

Israel is about as secular a state as any of these Muslims will ever see, my friend, and I can guarantee, if the PA ever gets their own state it will be neither secular nor remotely democratic, as the Arabs have no history of either.

And you have failed to answer the question of why the link you posted left out the very important fact that it was the Arabs that rejected the 2 independent states. Don't you know the answer?

[kramadas]

Originally posted by dusted

I'm close to the end of my patience with the two of you bigots (again, pls refer to the definition of bigot I posted before). In my view, the killings on both sides are wrong and parties like Islamic Jihad and Hamas need to be disintegrated and/or jailed. However, the atrocities committed by the IDF also has to stop, and atrocities they are. And its about time they started treating their own citizens equally, without seizing arab owned land for "nature preserves", spraying toxic chemicals on crops, or otherwise oppressing the rights of Israeli Arabs

--------------------

OOh I'm scared. :laugh:

So who is going to be the one to "disintegrate" or "jail" Islamic Jihad and Hamas? Hmmm? How do you find them, when they are hiding out amongst the regular PA's?

Israel would be pretty damn stupid to let Arabs, even Israeli Arabs in their army at this time, don't you think? That's a pretty ludicrous statement. Maybe some day when the "troubles" are over, but not now. At this time, and this is all the fault of the Arabs, the Arabs are considered enemies, it doesn't matter that they are citizens. They are free to go it they want to, they don't have to stay.

Why is it that you are more concerned with the way Arabs are treated in Israel than you are with the way Arabs are treated in Arab countries?

Where do your statistics concerning the 80 percent of Palestinian land being taken by the Israelis come from? You have records of which people owned plots of land? Please post this information. I want to check these statistics out.

As far as your last statement, about the Israeli Arabs "rising up" against their Jewish oppressors, what a load of cak. The biggest problem Israel has is with the "refugees" not the citizens. If the Arabs weren't so hostile to Israel in general, from the very beginning, they wouldn't have these problems. As it is, the Israel Arabs have it better than say, the Afghans, or the Arabs from other countries, so I don't know what their complaining about.

Now, I have refuted many of your claims in previous posts, I would like you to acknowledge that.

If I have to post anti Jewish quotes from the Koran and the Hadith, I will. But I think you should realize that Islam is as Islam does, and the persecution of Jews in Muslim countries was done in the name of Islam and continues to be done in the name of Islam today.

Israel is about as secular a state as any of these Muslims will ever see, my friend, and I can guarantee, if the PA ever gets their own state it will be neither secular nor remotely democratic, as the Arabs have no history of either.

And you have failed to answer the question of why the link you posted left out the very important fact that it was the Arabs that rejected the 2 independent states. Don't you know the answer?

Dude, all you write is bullshit. You like to turn things around, twist it to fit your own view, and disagree with anything that does not fit your picture. Thats utterly pathetic. oh yeah, just because the Muslims in Afhanistan are treated badly, its OK to treat the Arabs in Israel as second class citizens, right? Again, Israel is about as secular as my ass!

You have not refuted any of my points, just twisted them and thrown them back at me. Any disproving of points by you has to be backed by information provided in links.

I said this before, i say this again - all you do is spread hate. Thats it, I'm done arguing with a bigoted, ignorant, racist moron who knows nothing about holding an intelligent dialogue.

[malone]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by dusted

There are plenty of quotes in the Koran and the Hadith that are anti Jewish.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Prove this, if you can.

You don't know shit about Islam.

__________________

From the Quran:

5.51: "believers do not take Jews and christians as friends. They are but one another's friends. If anyone of you takes them for his friends, then he is surely one of them. God will not guide evil- doers."

5.56-4: Referring to "people of the book": "Isn't it true that you hate us simply because we believe in God, and in what He has sent down to us, and in what He has revealed to others before; and because most of you are evil-doers".

9.26,30:" Declare war upon those to whom the scriptures were revealed, but believe neither in God nor the last day, and who refuse to acknowledge the true religion until they pay the poll-tax and are totally subjugated.

The Jew's claim Ezra is a sun of God, and the Christians say, 'the Messiah is a son of God'. Those are the claims that indeed resemble the sayings of the Infidels of old. May God do battle with them! How they are deluded!"

2.61, referring to Jews:"Wretchedness and baseness were stamped upon them and they drew on themselves the wrath of God".

8.12: "I will instill terror in the hearts of the Infidels, strike off their heads then, and strike off from them every fingertip."

9.5-5: " Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them".

But of course actions speak louder than words. So we can look at the massacre of about 900 Jews of Banu Qurayza and a similar number of the tribe of Nadir in cold blood by Mohammed . The slaughter of countless others too numerous to mention, but all in the history books , if not on UN web sites. These are but two examples of his magnaminity towards the Jews and others. Oh, there were so many others. This is to say nothing of the outright stealing of property, ensavement of women for sexual purposes, etc. He made himself plenty rich by plundering and looting all around him. Yeah, Mohammed was quite well placed to lecture on sin, as there were very few he hadn't more than his fair share of indulgence in. Describing Mohammed as a great "religous" leader is akin to saying Attila the Hun was a peacenik. Now, throughout history, various tyrants have cited religous scrolls to justify their heinous deeds. Or have misinterpreted scripture, or what have you, to advqnce a particular cause. Mohammed, on the other hand cannot possibly have this avenue of escape. He held the patent on Islam, afterall. His tyranny can not be excused as a misrepresentation of Islam, or as something he did in his Youth before God straightened him out. No, there's no way around the reality that Mohammed was, by any standards, a brute. You wouldn't say that Stalin was not a proper ambasador for Stalinism; or that Hitler wasn't a good example of Naziism. But, I understand denial of reality is one of your specialties.

[kramadas]

Also from the Quran:

[2:62 & 5:69] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

[7:159] Among the followers of Moses there are those who guide in accordance with the truth, and the truth renders them righteous.

[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.

[60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book [Jews and Christians], those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God: They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account. (The Noble Quran, 3:199)"

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Malone, thats very nice of you to take verses out of context and paste them. What, of course, you fail to mention is that the verses you posted are in reference to people who do not believe their scriptures and start persecuting others (ie, Muslims) because of religion. Only then should muslims declare Islamic jihad.

I'm no expert on Islam, but I do understand enough to know when things are taken out context. Here's an example:

Say my group of people live amongst a people who worship the moon. We've been living in harmony until a small group of moon-worshippers decide to kill us because of religion, and I happen to make this statement:

"We are, all of a sudden, being attacked by these moon-worshippers. Protect and defend yourselves. Kill the moon-worshippers!"

Now, someone, like you will come and of course quote me as saying:

"Kill the moon-worshippers!"

Tell me, if Islam says kill all Jews, how is it the Quran says that Muslim men can marry Jewish and Christian women?

"This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good). (The Noble Quran, 5:5)"

Regarding my other points about oppression of Arab people living in Israel....any comment?

[malone]

Malone, or should I say, Dusted - as usual you contradict yourself. On the one hand, you're blasting me for not having a "balanced" viewpoint, but on the other hand my earlier links are being dismissed as being pro-Palestinian. What is it man - make up your mind!

The only reason I post pro-Palestinian sites is to counter your blatantly pro-Israeli viewpoints. There lies the balance. And in all this, I have yet to see even ONE site to back up your opinions. God forbid, you ever write a research paper.

And tell me where I said that the Guardian was completely un-biased. Tell me, which media is completley unbiased. Show me the connection between them reporting on the IRA and reporting in the Middle East. Whats your point regarding the many innocent Irish youths being rounded up - just because they were not mentioned in the Guardian, the Palestians being rounded up should not be reported either? Or is it OK to round up the Palestinians since the same was done to the innocent Irish youth? I say they're BOTH wrong...however, I didn't know much about the IRish situation, otherwise I would have been as outspoken. What YOUR point is I do not know.

BTW, do plan on refuting anything in the Guardian article, or are you just trying to digress from the subject?

I'm close to the end of my patience with the two of you bigots (again, pls refer to the definition of bigot I posted before). In my view, the killings on both sides are wrong and parties like Islamic Jihad and Hamas need to be disintegrated and/or jailed. However, the atrocities committed by the IDF also has to stop, and atrocities they are. And its about time they started treating their own citizens equally, without seizing arab owned land for "nature preserves", spraying toxic chemicals on crops, or otherwise oppressing the rights of Israeli Arabs.

__________________

Now lets see then, plan on refuting anythihg the Guardian said about the Middle east??. How would I do that? What methodology would you suggest I employ? With the evidently severely bruised ego, we know you're not ameniable to persuasion at this point, or to any ideas that might cause you distress. You see, your failure to remain calm has lead your emotions to have a field-day with you, and then we have do deal with your puerile nonsense as a consequence. Now if you don't want to understand my point about the Guardian and their bias, well there's not much I can do about it. But I will clarify, so that you may not use that particular excuse: The Guardian is on the left. Therefore, it will carry articles and news items that favor this viewpoint. In the case of the middle east, that means a pro- Palestinian bias. So, as nobody on this side of the discussion, on this thread ever said that the Israelis hadn't carried out brutal policies, as war is brutal, any amount of whinging about it is politically motivated. In other words , the Guardian complains about the plight of Palestinians, because their readers want to hear that, but may not be quite as concerned about the plight of the victims of Palestinians. On the other hand when IRA bombs were exploding in London the Guardian was most displeased. No long articles attempting to explain the roots of the conflict, or to understand these people, or to elicit sympathy from the reader for them. Why? Because the reader wouldn't want to hear it, that's why. So, as you yourself admit all media outlets are biased, your constant calling for me to include links is a meaningless exercise; made even more so by your dismissal of Dusted's as worthless as they are allegedly tainted. What a crock! Get your head out, for Christ's sake. Now as to the matter of rounding up Palestinians, or Irish, for that matter, which you claim to be out spoken on, what do you think the Israelis should do? In a previous post I mentioned how the Jordanians handled the PLO in 1970, by exterminating about 5000 of them. Didn't bother to check that out, huh?? There wasn't a link provided for your convienence? Aww, shucks! Well, I suppose you want the Israelis to buckle under the pressure of Palestinian attacks. Sorry to be the one to break this to you, but that's just not going to happen. And, while we're at it, you're the one, together with Breaksny who continually attempts to divert us off topic by your constant, petty insistence on labeling myself and Dusted as racists and bigots. Now, as I explained in previous post, you do so in vain. You see , we are quite familar with this lefty tactic of attempting to stigmatize someone's character in order to silence them. And to change subject to something you feel more comfortable with: name-calling, like a little school boy.These methods are, to borrow a phrase, the last refuge of a scoundrel. Bigot, you say? I bet you were looking in the mirror when you came up with that one.

[dusted]

Regarding my other points about oppression of Arab people living in Israel....any comment?

---------------

Yes. Lifes a bitch. They are free to leave, renounce their Israeli citizenship and go live in an Arab country, where they will be treated like A-1, first class citizens, with human rights for all.

[malone]

Malone, thats very nice of you to take verses out of context and paste them. What, of course, you fail to mention is that the verses you posted are in reference to people who do not believe their scriptures and start persecuting others (ie, Muslims) because of religion. Only then should muslims declare Islamic jihad.

I'm no expert on Islam, but I do understand enough to know when things are taken out context. Here's an example:

Say my group of people live amongst a people who worship the moon. We've been living in harmony until a small group of moon-worshippers decide to kill us because of religion, and I happen to make this statement:

"We are, all of a sudden, being attacked by these moon-worshippers. Protect and defend yourselves. Kill the moon-worshippers!"

Now, someone, like you will come and of course quote me as saying:

"Kill the moon-worshippers!"

Tell me, if Islam says kill all Jews, how is it the Quran says that Muslim men can marry Jewish and Christian women?

"This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good). (The Noble Quran, 5:5)"

Regarding my other points about oppression of Arab people living in Israel....any comment?

__________________

What do you mean taken verses out of context? You asked for proof of where the Quran said this and that and I provided you proof . You didn't say that its not there. No. Now you turn around and say it was taken out of context. Maybe you have taken it out of context! And no amount of citations to attempt to show otherwise can alter the fact that it says what I posted. It may prove that the Quran is a pile of self-contradictory mush, but that's another topic. You whined in previous posts about the absence of sources and you go wobbly when I cite THE source. You dismiss Dusted's links as wortless, then demand links from me , at the same time as you say that Dusted and I are the same person. You then cite the Quran yourself, presumably in context, as clearly you wouldn't be capable of doing otherwise. And then you completely ignore the mass butchery of Jews that was carried out by Mohammed himself, because it's just too darn inconvenient to deal with. Conclusion: You truly are a moron of guagantuan dimensions. When are you going to acknowledge that your woefully hyper-inflated ego has gotten the better of your judgement? You are never going to accept anything I, or anyone else has to say, simply because it's not you who are saying it. That much you have made abundantly clear. You have exposed yourself as a complete sham. And now to your final point of oppression of the Arabs in Israel: detail for us the sources and the nature of the alleged oppression, and perhaps what the Palestinian members of the Knesset have to say about it, as they are the ones who are charged with looking out for Palestinian's interests. As opposed to, say, an Arab living in an Arab country who doesn't even have an election to not vote in. We'll see what needs to be said, as I have no compunction in condemning abuses by anyone. I am not locked in any ideological cocoon, unable to venture out, lest the big bad world might intrude. In the meantime, you can tell us what the founder of the worlds second largest religion was doing war-mongering and pillaging through his time? And what conclusions a follower would be justified in drawing: "Do as I do , not as I say", perhaps??

[malone]

I listened to an interview with a chap, Ibn Warraq, on the radio yesterday. This fellow, who has a deep knowledge of muslim scholarship, and who himself was raised a muslim, was less than impressed with what Islam represents. And he wasn't talking about the so-called fringes of Islam either. The amusing thing about these apologists for Islam is that they put down the incidence of violent Islam to misinterpretation on the part of others. When, in actual fact, violence was at the very core of Islam from the very outset. The head honcho, himself, was steeped in blood and gore up to his eyeballs. And the big dumb boy "raver mania" is splitting hairs like he's some big-bucks lawyer on Park avenue. Which is just more diversion. He can't handle the truth, so he pretends that everything must be put in the proper "context": meaning, that unsavory information must be ignored or explained away. But never, ever acknowledged. Air brushed out of history, like his mentor Stalin did to Trotsky.

[dusted]

Tell me, if Islam says kill all Jews, how is it the Quran says that Muslim men can marry Jewish and Christian women?

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So as to facilitate the spread of Islam, by bringing up the children born of such a marriage as Muslims.

(and in all probability, forcibly convert the woman to Islam)

The Muslims, unlike the Jews, spread their religion in a large measure by conquest and conversion, thats why there are so many Muslims in the world, even though Islam is a comparatively young religion.

It was common for Muslims to steal Jewish children and bring them up as Muslims, for they don't care one whit if the person was actually "born" a Muslim

But answer this: What does the Koran say about Muslim women marrying Christian or Jewish men, and bringing their children up as Christians or Jews? Is that allowed?

[ashta]

Wow you guys are getting very far with your attitudes.

You're doing just as well as they are in the peace process.

Why don't you continue picking on details, twisting words, and being generally agressive and lets see how long and boring we can make this topic.

Good job.

[dusted]

Thanks for your helpful input. it really shed new light on the subject.

I think Malone and I could really use you on our team.

[malone]

Wow you guys are getting very far with your attitudes.

You're doing just as well as they are in the peace process.

Why don't you continue picking on details, twisting words, and being generally agressive and lets see how long and boring we can make this topic.

Good job.

There's a peace process??? Now, "asta", the last time you saw fit to give us the benefit of your wisdom on this thread, which was a one-sided harangue against Israel, you then proceeded to call politicians " filty minded bastards", and now you're going to talk to us about "attitude" and agression? Please.

[ashta]

There's a peace process??? Now, "asta", the last time you saw fit to give us the benefit of your wisdom on this thread, which was a one-sided harangue against Israel, you then proceeded to call politicians " filty minded bastards", and now you're going to talk to us about "attitude" and agression? Please.

Nope. No wisdom this time. After all it's senseless to argue with a cow isn't it? Just a sarcastic and pointless comment completley apropriate for the tone this thread has taken.

Still if it eases your frustrations to spell names wrong and what not, then please go ahead dear.

Personally I'm not wasting any more of my time on this thread.

Good luck in the world, and hope you never get to live on the other side of this mess for your own sake.

[malone]

Nope. No wisdom this time. After all it's senseless to argue with a cow isn't it? Just a sarcastic and pointless comment completley apropriate for the tone this thread has taken.

Still if it eases your frustrations to spell names wrong and what not, then please go ahead dear.

Personally I'm not wasting any more of my time on this thread.

Good luck in the world, and hope you never get to live on the other side of this mess for your own sake.

__________________

Wow!! How touchy. A little typo, and your knickers are in a twist. And it's only a made-up name to boot. Phew, talk about frustration. Dusted was right. I want you on my team. Sign right here...

[breaksny]

Dusted yer an idiot. We're the same person? What have you been smoking? lol And to answer u, the overwhelming majority of muslims are peaceful b/c their religion demands it. If you don't get that, then you don't get anything about islam. Stop trying, not that you ever did. And that's all I can say? No u moron I don't wanna waste my time on an idiot like u that's y I;m not saying anything on here. That's why most people have left this discussion. And if you think the 2 posts immediately proceeding mine were coherent, and then I'm glad yer warped brain can comprehend some meaning in them b/c mine can't.

[kramadas]

Dusted and Malone - I hope you guys the best in life. You see, you might know a few things about the Middle East, but in the end its the implementation that counts...and on that I'd rather be center/slightly left than far right. Thats why, though I'm not religious, I have one prayer - that the likes of you are never close to being in any position of power. And Malone, maybe its time to practice what you preach. One post you trash me for name-calling, and the next post, you right out call me a moron. Very nice.

I'm outta here - I have better things to do than exchange insults with a couple of morons (yes, I'm calling you a moron).

Peace.

[dusted]

Kill a Jew for Allah

National Review | 3/22/02 | John Derbyshire

I recently got a long, carefully composed e-mail from a reader, who begged me to circulate it among "other opinion-formers." It laid out a plan for peace in the Middle East. The writer, obviously an intelligent and well-informed person, had composed the e-mail with great care. With some passion, too — he really wants to find a solution to the Israel-Arab problem. Here was a public-spirited person doing his citizenly best to promote an idea that, he fervently believed, would put an end to the horrors.

And what was that idea? In a nutshell: The U.S. should lean hard on Israel to abandon the Jewish settlements in Arab land — i.e. beyond Israel's pre-1967 borders. These settlements (my reader argued) were the root cause of all the strife. Closing them down would remove the main casus belli; and the good faith shown by this act would open the eyes of the Arabs to the fact that peace with Israel is possible. The logjam would be broken.

I don't know what to say to people like this. Obviously they are decent, good citizens. Obviously they are trying their best — trying to be constructive, to give some hope to the world. How do I tell them what I feel? Which is, that they are floating in orbit between Uranus and Neptune — inhabiting some place that does not touch the real world at any point.

Look: Possibly there would be some abstract justice in closing down the settlements, I don't know. I don't see it myself, I must admit. Why should Jews not live among Arabs? Lots of Arabs live in Israel, and do very well there. There are rich Israeli Arabs; there are Israeli-Arab pop stars and comedians; there are Israeli-Arab intellectuals, teachers, writers, businessmen, athletes. Why, when the whole thing gets sorted out, should there not be Jews living in Arab territory — as there were for centuries past? What, exactly, is wrong with the settlements? I don't see it.

But, okay, let's suppose there is some valid moral objection to the existence of the settlements; and let's suppose my reader's plan were to be carried out, and all the settlements were removed, their populations transferred back to metropolitan Israel, their buildings razed, their fields ploughed with salt. Does anybody think it would make a damn bit of difference? There was no such thing as settlements, no such thing as "occupied territories," before the 1967 war. There were no such things in 1960, for example, when Adolf Eichmann was abducted from his hiding-hole in Buenos Aires by Israeli secret agents, an event recorded by Saudi Arabia's principal government-controlled newspaper as: "ARREST OF EICHMANN, WHO HAD THE HONOR OF KILLING 6 MILLION JEWS".

The problem of the Middle East is not the settlements. It is not this piece of land or that piece. It is not the Golan Heights or East Jerusalem or Temple Mount. It is not oil, or land, or water, or history, or geography, or metaphysics. The problem is in plain sight. You know what the problem is, and so do I. The problem is that the Middle East hates the Jews.

I say "the Middle East" because I don't know any more precise way to say it. You can't say "the Arabs" (though of course the Arabs hate the Jews more than anyone), because the Iranians and the Pakistanis and the Berbers of North Africa hate the Jews too, and they are not Arabs. You can't say "the Muslims". That is a lot closer, I think, and there surely cannot be much doubt that institutional Islam is riddled with Jew-hatred. Still, Malaysia is a Muslim country, and they don't hate the Jews, except in a go-along, pro forma sort of way, to keep on good terms with the Saudis and Gulf Emirs.

And I am sure, before you write to tell me, that lots of people in the Middle East don't hate the Jews. Lots of Arabs, millions probably, don't hate the Jews. Probably lots of non-Arab Muslims don't hate the Jews, either. Yet it's hard to avoid the impression, from reading the MEMRI translations, from looking at the kinds of things taught in schools all over the Middle East (and in Islamic schools here in the U.S.A. — see below), from listening to the pronouncements of Middle East politicians (remember the Syrian foreign minister explaining to the Pope — to the Pope! — that: "When I see a Jew in front of me, I kill him"?) and from random conversations with New York cab drivers, that visceral, murderous Jew-hatred is awfully widespread among Arabs, Pakistanis, Iranians, and North Africans. Awfully widespread.

In between getting that e-mail and answering it, I did two unrelated things, by way of my daily work. One was to prepare an editorial snippet for the print National Review about Islamic schools here in the U.S., based on a long study in the Washington Post of February 25th. There are estimated to be between 200 and 600 private Islamic day schools in the U.S., with up to 30,000 students in attendance. They use textbooks imported from Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. One in use at the Islamic Saudi Academy in suburban Virginia instructs readers that a sure sign of the Day of Judgment will be that Muslims will fight and kill Jews, who will hide behind trees that say: "Oh Muslim, Oh servant of God, there is a Jew hiding behind me. Come here and kill him." School authorities did some fast damage control when the Post confronted them (as the Saudis are doing over the now-famous Blood Libel article). The textbooks are in process of being replaced with special versions more suitable for American students, they assured us, with the kill-a-Jew-for-Allah stuff left out. Presumably that stuff remains untouched back home in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt, Syria, Iran, Libya,... Their kiddies will get the right message, you can be sure: "What do you mean, you don't hate Jews? Look, even the blessed trees hate them!"

The other thing I did was read Jeffrey Goldberg's article about Saddam Hussein in The New Yorker (titled "The Great Terror" in the 3/25/02 issue).

"Iraqi dissidents agree that Iraq's programs to build weapons of mass destruction are focused on Israel. 'Israel is the whole game,' Ahmad Chalabi, the leader of the Iraqi National Congress, told me. .... "[saddam] thinks he can kill one hundred thousand Israelis in a day with biological weapons....' Students of Iraq and its government generally agree that Saddam would like to project himself as leader of all the Arabs, and that the only sure way to do that is by confronting Israel."

Seems to me, from what I read and hear, that those students are quite right: That by "confronting Israel" via killing a hundred thousand Israelis in a day, Saddam would win the hearts of the entire Arab world, and of the Iranians, Pakistanis, Afghans and North Africans, too. (Does Hamid Karzai, Washington's new darling, hate Jews? Has anyone asked him?) I am sure Saddam himself believes this to be the case, and he is, with all his endearing little character flaws, a man who knows something about the Arab mentality.

It is not too difficult to envisage a plan by which the spoken grievances of the Arabs against Israel could be addressed, and some compromise struck. The chancelleries of the world — including Israel's — are in fact full of such plans, drawn up with loving care by legions of diplomats, experts, politicians, ambassadors, scholars and private do-gooders like my reader, across decades of time. In an atmosphere of goodwill, and genuine desire for a solution, the Palestine circle could be squared. You'd just have to pull one of those plans down from the shelf, blow the dust off it, and say: "Let's take this for a starting point, shall we?" The circle is not going to be squared though — not by George W. Bush, not by my e-mail pal with his elaborate scheme to shut down the settlements, not by another round of "shuttle diplomacy," not by any amount of work on a "peace process". It isn't going to be, because there is no goodwill, and no real desire on the part of Israel's enemies for a solution. Or rather, there is a widespread desire for only one solution — the extinction of Israel and the driving out, or mass killing, of the Jews. That's what they want, the Middle East; that's all they want.

I don't think we should be sending diplomats to the Middle East. I think we should be sending teams of psychiatrists. This is a diseased culture, a sick culture. Go back to that disgraceful recycling of the Blood Libel in the Saudi press. Do you think anyone in that newspaper's readership thought there was anything odd about it, anything deplorable about it, anything untrue about it? I don't think so. To the newspaper readers of Saudi Arabia, it was routine stuff, a statement of the obvious. If MEMRI hadn't brought it to the attention of the civilized world, do you think the Saudi authorities would have bothered about it? Do you think, even now, they really have a clue what all the fuss is about? Of course the Jews use gentile blood to make their cookies. Doesn't everyone know that? We'd best pretend to be shocked, though. Those Americans are so-o-o sensitive!

We are dealing here with people who are, not to put too fine a point on it, nuts. The Arabs, the Iranians, the Pakis, the Libyans: they are nuts, the great majority of them. Nuts. Not playing with a full deck. Not too tightly wrapped. One brick short of a load, one coupon short of a toaster. The smoke not going all the way up the chimney. Not quite 16 annas to the rupee. Nuts.

Is there anything we can do about it? Only what Peggy Noonan told us to do in her brilliant Wall Street Journal piece last week: Do what you do when you find yourself in a roomful of glittering-eyed lunatics down at the local funny farm. Keep smiling, talk softly, don't make any sudden moves, keep nodding and smiling, and keep a tight hand on the stun gun in your pocket. The Middle East contains three hundred million people, and most of them are crazy as coots. Glad I don't live there.

[malone]

Dusted and Malone - I hope you guys the best in life. You see, you might know a few things about the Middle East, but in the end its the implementation that counts...and on that I'd rather be center/slightly left than far right. Thats why, though I'm not religious, I have one prayer - that the likes of you are never close to being in any position of power. And Malone, maybe its time to practice what you preach. One post you trash me for name-calling, and the next post, you right out call me a moron. Very nice.

I'm outta here - I have better things to do than exchange insults with a couple of morons (yes, I'm calling you a moron).

You guys lowered the level of civility, and used the jargon of race hustlers in an attempt to silence Dusted and myself. You clearly didn't succeed. I don't care if you call me a moron, as It's intended as a personal insult. I can handle that, no problem. My problem is with your attempt to remove this discourse from the arena of policy difference, and attempt to smear your opponents into silence a la Joseph Mc Carthy or Joseph Stalin. You would do well to distinguish between the two. And calling you a moron was certainly warranted by your behaviour and by your own incessant bad manners. Alas, you could dish it out, but could not take. And finally, at what point did you realize that you had better things to do than exchange insults?? Was it right after you realized that you had come up empty??

[malone]

Yeah, Dusted, that guy is dead on target. These guys on this board, the apologists for the Muslim murders, don't want to understand this. They are in deep denial. Not because it just ain't so, but because it's all about them, now. They won't acknowledge that it's hatred of the Jews that's fueling the entire problem, combined with a large helping of jealousy of the West, especially the USA. Oh, that's just too painful. It must be something WE did. Wake up!