Claims of a "Massacre"....

[sassa]

sorry, but could not resist bringing this up...seriously, anyone with some rationale has to wonder why israel did not let the un send a fact-finding team there? if they had nothing to hide, there would be no problems, right? interesting article below.....

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Claims Of A "Massacre": Does Israel

Have Something To Hide From The U.N.

By Vin Suprynowicz

Toogood Reports [Monday, May 6, 2002; 12:01 a.m. EST]

URL: http://ToogoodReports.com/

Some Americans have doubtless concluded by now that Israel "must have something to hide," given the tiny nation's resistance to having an "impartial" United Nations team inspect the Jenin "refugee camp" (a 50-year-old city of three-story apartment buildings with electricity and plumbing and basements full of terrorist bomb factories) to determine whether Palestinian claims of a "massacre" there can be verified.

One wonders how these same Americans — or their parents — would have responded if an "impartial world organization" had sought permission to grill American troops to "investigate reports of a massacre" following our costly and hard-won victories at Monte Cassino or Iwo Jima.

Not that the United Nations is exactly seen as an "objective arbiter" in Israel, of course. David Tell writes in the "Weekly Standard" dated May 6:

"In 1948, when the armies of five surrounding Arab dictatorships invaded tiny, newborn Israel — in what the secretary general of the Arab League announced was a "war of extermination" against "the Jews" — the United Nations sat on its ass. And did not send a fact-finding mission.

"But, oh, how the U.N. has been making up for that oversight ever since. For more than 50 years now, the Jews have been its favorite subject. ...

"Right up to the present day, (the U.N.) Security Council has devoted fully a third of its energy and criticism to the policies of a single country: Israel. The U.N. Commission on Human Rights, which regularly — and unreprovingly — accepts delegations from any number of homicidal tyrannies across the globe, has issued fully a quarter of its official condemnations to a single (democratic) country: Israel. ...

"No fewer than four separate administrative units within the U.N. — two of them directly supervised by Kofi Annan's governing secretariat — do nothing but spend millions of dollars annually on the production and worldwide distribution of propaganda questioning Israel's right to exist. The 'Special Committee to Investigate Israeli Practices Affecting the Human Rights of the Palestinian People and other Arabs of the Occupied Territories,' for example, 'investigates' Israel's continued 'practice" of 'occupying' not just the territory taken in the 1967 war, but also the land within its internationally recognized, pre-1967 borders."

How would Americans feel about a similar ongoing "Special Committee," established just to investigate how this country came into possession of Puerto Rico and the Hawaiian Islands?

Mr. Tell then moves on to the question of the Jenin "massacre":

"Rescue workers in Jenin have so far recovered the bodies of six — not the rumored six hundred, but six — women, children, and elderly Palestinians. This, in a now ruined central area of the camp where countless armed gunmen rained days of nonstop sniper fire on Israeli foot patrols from the windows of still-occupied residences they had booby-trapped with high explosives. This is a 'massacre'?

"And why, even if its death toll had proved a hundred times higher, would it warrant a U.N. fact-finding mission? In 1993, just after the events lately made famous by Hollywood's 'Black Hawk Down,' a two-week U.S. bombing campaign against Mogadishu killed a thousand Somali civilians. ... But did it ever occur to the United Nations to convene an inquest into the 'human catastrophe' that was Somalia? It did not."

In fact, the Weekly Standard goes on, "The U.N. has spent decades, in the guise of refugee assistance, providing active, organized, and enthusiastic auxiliary services to the most delusional and violent strains of Jew-hating Palestinian irredentism. It bears mentioning, though one rarely hears it mentioned, that the UNRWA camp at Jenin has been for years what the Palestinians call a'simat al-istashidin, the 'suiciders' capital,' from which dozens of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah, Al Aksa, and Tanzim terrorist attacks have been launched, killing hundreds of Israelis.

"UNRWA funds and staffs the schools of Jenin, where, from fall through spring each year, children are taught that all of 'Palestine,' from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, belongs to them. ... UNRWA allows its food warehouses in Jenin to do double duty as munitions dumps.

"UNRWA pretends not to know that explosives and counterfeit currency factories are housed in the public shelters it has constructed in Jenin. UNRWA cannot understand how it might be that its own administrative offices in Jenin are festooned with graffitti celebrating some of the world's most notorious terrorist organizations. Or how some of the world's most notorious terrorists might have found their way onto the agency's payroll — to the point where the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, extreme even in the context of Palestinian extremism, now openly controls the UNRWA workers' union."

Yet "This same United Nations, the blood of Israeli civilians still wet on its hands, now dares to question the morality of a modest, defensive, and long-overdue Israeli reprisal?"

"One extremist alone, Thabet Mardawi of Islamic Jihad, is thought to have dispatched nine bombers from Jenin, killing a total of 20 Israelis and injuring 150," reports the Toronto Globe and Mail. "He will not do it again. Israeli soldiers arrested him in the camp and put him behind bars. They also intercepted 10 suicide bombers who had made farewell videotapes and were ready to strike."

"The Israelis could have used air power instead of infantry and armor, and, in the style of Americans in Afghanistan, fought much of this war long distance," points out Paul Greenberg in the April 26 Washington Times. "They could have proceeded to level Nablus' casbah and Jenin's refugee camp with little or no risk to their own troops. Instead, they opted to fight house by house, block by block, in order to minimize civilian casualties, and they paid the price. ..."

An investigation published in the April 29 Boston Globe concludes Palestinian allegations "that a large-scale massacre of civilians was committed (in Jenin) appear to be crumbling under the weight of eyewitness accounts from Palestinian fighters who participated in the battle and camp residents who remained in their homes."

In interviews with civilians and fighters in Jenin, the Globe found "None reported seeing large numbers of civilians killed." On the other hand, referring to the deaths of Israeli soldiers in Jenin, Abdel Rahman Sa'adi, a 14-year-old Islamic Jihad grenade-thrower, said "This was a massacre of the Jews, not of us."

The Globe quotes a spokesman for the Israeli army reporting that Palestinians are now moving bodies of people not killed in the Jenin fighting into graveyards around the camp "to score points with the UN committee."

And the planned subterfuge doesn't stop there. The AP reported April 28 that in an effort to project a moderate image in advance of the arrival of the hoped-for U.N. investigative team, the Palestinian Authority has orchestrated a painting-over of radical graffitti inside the settlement, such as the one declaring: "Osama bin Laden is a hero."

It has replaced them with placid slogans in English for the succession of VIP visitors now parading through the camp, The AP reports.

The new, polite English graffitti is "very different from the venomous and warlike graffitti that has for years threatened 'rivers of blood' or 'opening the gates of hell' on the walls of every Palestinian town, village and refugee camp."

But was the (literal) whitewashing even necessary, given that all proposals for a U.N. probe team would have prominently featured U.N. "observer" Terje Larsen?

Ah, Mr. Larsen: undisguised anti-Israeli partisan, or just plain nuts?

On Thursday, April 18, Mr. Larsen toured the scene of that week's battle of Jenin, and proclaimed of an area bulldozed by Israeli tanks (described by the Times of London as an area "the size of two football pitches") "Not any objective can justify such action, with colossal suffering."

Ah. And Mr. Larsen makes this analysis of the level of devastation "appropriate" in an operation geared to wipe out the world's most concentrated nest of extremist terror bombers based on his long career of decorated military service?

Well, no. As it turns out, Mr. Larsen is actually a Norwegian university sociologist and former trade union official.

It may also be worth recalling that the United Nations — Mr. Larsen's employer — was founded in 1945 by the three victor nations of World War Two — the United States, the Soviet Union, and Britain.

The reason these nations were running the world in 1946, and were thus able to create an international body through which world peace might be promoted, is that they had just defeated the Axis powers.

Has Mr. Larsen never viewed photographs showing what Berlin looked like by the time the Red Army reached the Reichstag in 1945? Has he never seen photos of what Hiroshima and Nagasaki — Tokyo and Dresden, for that matter — looked like by the time the peace terms were signed in Tokyo harbor?

If "Not any objective can justify" the "colossal suffering" of a few hundred Palestinian families (who must have known they were living in a nest of terror bombers) being evicted and a few score of them (most armed and shooting back) killed, does this pathetic cretin hold that the levels of devastation seen in Germany and Japan in 1945 were also completely "unjustifiable," even for the objective at hand? (He did say, "not any objective," remember.)

Mr. Larsen thus shamelessly insults and betrays the brave servicemen who won the Second World War — liberating Norway from Nazi oppression while they were at it, we might add.

If there is some life after this one, we may at least hope Mr. Larsen finds his reward there, experiencing for eternity the typical life of an inmate of Auschwitz or Buchenwald or of one of the Japanese army's Korean "comfort women" — or else constantly and eternally re-living the emotions of a peace-loving Israeli civilian who has just watched his innocent wife and child torn limb from limb by a hate-filled homicide bomber as they were about to sit down to their Passover supper — since if Mr. Larsen believes the bulldozing of an area 120 yards square in one corner of the "Jenin Refugee Camp" was an inappropriate level of devastation to accomplish the military goal at hand — or "any" objective, for that matter — it must surely follow that he also believes the leveling of Berlin and Tokyo were equally unacceptable tactics to adopt in successfully bringing down those hideous regimes.

Doesn't it?

[j303j]

will you ever go away. im gonna buy you a one way ticket to the middle east and you can pick a country to live in. please never come back.

[alfuckingcapone]

Originally posted by j303j

will you ever go away. im gonna buy you a one way ticket to the middle east and you can pick a country to live in. please never come back.

Hey bro what the fuck is wrong with what sassa brought up?

I think sassa makes a good point and the article is good.

It's just people like you who sit up in your high horse being ignorant when somebody feels sorry for the palistinian civillians too. What, they are not people too? I think it's sad over there for both parties and it just takes a few bad people on both sides ,but way, way, more palistinian civils are being killed. Every one the IDF kills they claim is a terrorist. So why won't they let the UN investigate? Did you know the other day the IDF killed a mother and her two kids? They said it was a mistake. So I guess it is ok, right? We all know if it was the other way around, it would be all over the news for 2-3 days.

I watched an intresting program on cbs yesterday, i think it was dateline or something like that around 6 or 7. The program was on how high rank IDF soliders are refusing to serve becasue they say this is not serving there country by what they are doing in occupying land. They had a mother who's son served for the IDF and was killed not to long ago and they asked her "do you feel your son served and died for his country" and she said " no i don't, my son did not believe in what he was doing, he was against it".

So I guess you want to send me too, to the Middle East becasue i feel sorry for the victim in the other side.

[ender84]

ah! here.. if ur really troubled by these things, and cant sleep at night b/c of em, check this out.

http://www.electronicintifada.net/new.html

http://www.complacent.org/

and yeh.. I do bitch about what happens in the middle east... I even got my own free palestine t-shirt , but this aint the place for it.

well, unless ur planning on throwing one big mothafucking rave in the west bank....

[danwilson]

Sassa, thats a great viewpoint. Here's a great website about the Mideast. Just scroll down and read the articles.

http://www.freeman.org/online.htm

[sassa]

I really don't get it.....if you people that bitch about me don't like what I'm posting...THEN DON'T FUCKING READ IT!!!!

It's really quite simple! And j303 or whatever your name is....you have NO right whatsoever to tell me to do ANYTHING, if I want to stay here and annoy the fuck out of you with my posts, then I will...until then, I suggest you take that gerbil out of your ass.

[sassa]

While I'm here posting...

why do people choose to blind themselves to the truth? why do people prefer to act like ostriches and turtles and stick their heads in a protective shell when the going gets rough? has all human curiosity and the need for truth died? how can people live in suburbs with their suv's, their 3.5 kids, their dog name poodles, and their 9-5 jobs...and completely cut off all the indecent, horrible, human-degrading, SICK things that are going on in this world? we all live here, this is the only Earth we will have, yet we continue to abuse it every day and destroy it for future generations....with assholes like Bush who is more concerned with kissing big corporate ass rather than salvaging what is left of this planet for the comfort of the future generations to come...

i make no apologies for posting anything i do in here...it comes from my mind and my heart, and like i said before...if you don't like this...then BUGGER OFF.

[masaru]

Stop the Violence!!!!! by KRS-ONE:mad:

heres link for peace:)

http://members.aol.com/UKpoet/global.htm

[sassa]

Originally posted by masaru

Stop the Violence!!!!! by KRS-ONE:mad:

heres link for peace:)

http://members.aol.com/UKpoet/global.htm

awwwwwwwwww......what a cool site thank you!

[roadrunner]

Sassa, I don't mind your opinions, but why do you only post about the middle east? If you're only interested in current affairs, why don't you find a messageboard that's not so locally hedonist? I mean, c'mon, this is a board about New York clubbing, and ALL YOU POST ABOUT IS THE MIDDLE EAST!

I don't get it...

[sassa]

Originally posted by roadrunner

Sassa, I don't mind your opinions, but why do you only post about the middle east? If you're only interested in current affairs, why don't you find a messageboard that's not so locally hedonist? I mean, c'mon, this is a board about New York clubbing, and ALL YOU POST ABOUT IS THE MIDDLE EAST!

I don't get it...

really? all my posts are about the middle east? i don't think so. sorry you see it that way.

i tend to read articles that i like, and when i do find one, i post it. if that bugs you, then sorry. read what i wrote above. thank you.

sassa

[roadrunner]

Sorry, guess the 'controversial' ones stick out more...

[tribal]

yo sassa, if you want a better debate board than this, try www.urban75.com

its very liberal, left leaning, so i always have fun debating those fellas, who are mostly brits and other europeans. i think u would fit right in.

[stonedcl]

Originally posted by j303j

will you ever go away. im gonna buy you a one way ticket to the middle east and you can pick a country to live in. please never come back.

Dude you the one bringing up the suicide biombings?

Truth hurts man..

The Jews are not as innocent as the US potrays them!

[mrblonde55]

There is a very good reason that Israel did not let that UN fact-finding team investigate anything, and it is because the Security Council expaneded their mandate on an almost daily basis without putting anything to a debate or vote. Israel knew that the deck was being stacked against them and pulled from the agreement. Jenin has been since opened to both the press and humanitarian groups, and all reports say that there was no massacre. Human Rights Watch has issued a public statement that they have found NO evidence of any type of miscounduct of the behalf of the Isreali in regards to any massace in Jenin.

BTW, the speechwriter for the Israeli council to the UN came to speak in one of my classes last week and had some interesting things to say about the working atmosphere of the UN. Keep in mind, there is only one Israel, and countless Arab and anti-Israeli states that each get their own voice and vote....so just by its democratic nature the playing field is not level.

[cintron]

Interesting article Sassa. Long and obviously biased but it was actually somewhat funny I do have to admit though, i'm completely worn through the floor with the violence in the middle east, so when i see people angry that this stuff keeps being brought up, i tend to agree - not because i'm shallow or think they can all go to hell [though that is a part of it].

It's kind of like if suddenly the news started reporting every person by name who died every day. At first perhaps the facts might be interesting but they'd wear out quickly and eventually you just don't even want to know anymore.

To me, it's not my country over there that's going through this, and i honestly can't stand hearing about it anymore. Perhaps they should just stop reporting on it altogether unless something good happens such as a peace treaty signed.

Oh well. call me shalllow but i just don't care anymore. They've been killing each other for thousands of years. why should i get involved in an issue between people who are obviously too arrogant and egotistical to work out a solution between themselves?

[midiman]

it was a massacre....why can't Israeli supporters ever admit that Israeli is doing evil things. People who support Palestine are against bombings yet Israeli supporters support everything Shron does claiming it is "necessary". Was this necessary?

[cintron]

wow that picture completely killed the good vibe i've been having all day. thanks.

[j303j]

Originally posted by midiman

it was a massacre....why can't Israeli supporters ever admit that Israeli is doing evil things. People who support Palestine are against bombings yet Israeli supporters support everything Shron does claiming it is "necessary". Was this necessary?

it is sad that civilians die but thats what happens when these pussy terrorists hide amongts civilians. i was so saddened when i saw what happened there.

[sassa]

Originally posted by cintron

Interesting article Sassa. Long and obviously biased but it was actually somewhat funny I do have to admit though, i'm completely worn through the floor with the violence in the middle east, so when i see people angry that this stuff keeps being brought up, i tend to agree - not because i'm shallow or think they can all go to hell [though that is a part of it].

It's kind of like if suddenly the news started reporting every person by name who died every day. At first perhaps the facts might be interesting but they'd wear out quickly and eventually you just don't even want to know anymore.

To me, it's not my country over there that's going through this, and i honestly can't stand hearing about it anymore. Perhaps they should just stop reporting on it altogether unless something good happens such as a peace treaty signed.

Oh well. call me shalllow but i just don't care anymore. They've been killing each other for thousands of years. why should i get involved in an issue between people who are obviously too arrogant and egotistical to work out a solution between themselves?

look...i've said this before...if you don't like what i am posting, then just don't read or respond to it. plain and simple. i would like to think that people in here are not completely moronic and can engage in deep conversation about issues that should be important to us all...what happens anywhere in the world affects us all, whether we blind ourselves to that fact or not...just don't even open a post with me posting it, if it's so much of a problem for you...besides, i think a person can talk about clubbing, music, drugs, partying, AND ...literature, art, politics, business, technology, and philosophy...maybe i'm the fool here if this is so irrational...

sassa

[mssabina]

for god's sake people... what's wrong with a little current events? let her post what she wants... if you don't like it, don't read it, simple as that. no reason to give her hell b/c she brings up something controvesial that she feels is important.

[LavenderMenace]

i'm just curious about those that continue to refer to Jenin as a masacre. how exactly do you define this term? and how does that relate to the number and nature of those killed at Jenin?

my understanding is that 10 - 15 civilians were killed and about 30 armed militants were.

certainly, if israel had simply bombed Jenin (which they could easily have done) and killed hundreds of people indescriminantely, there would have been a massacre.

curious to see your response midiman and others....

btw --- this is BarVybe - forgot to change screen names.

[sassa]

Originally posted by lavendermenace

i'm just curious about those that continue to refer to Jenin as a masacre. how exactly do you define this term? and how does that relate to the number and nature of those killed at Jenin?

my understanding is that 10 - 15 civilians were killed and about 30 armed militants were.

certainly, if israel had simply bombed Jenin (which they could easily have done) and killed hundreds of people indescriminantely, there would have been a massacre.

curious to see your response midiman and others....

btw --- this is BarVybe - forgot to change screen names.

i'm not sure if you are aware of the situation there, but hundreds HAVE been killed...check out this site http://www.middleeast.org It's not biased, since it is maintained by both Israeli and Palestinian writers...

There is so much more going on over there than many people realize..and it definitely affects the US...in terms of the US's position in the Middle East, which could dangerously affect the US's image in other Arab states' eyes...and then ...no oil for us...and we get hiked prices and other bullshit...the people need to take back the government.

[barvybe]

i'm sorry...u are saying that hundreds were killed at Jenin? that is certainly not what i have read from humanitarian groups or what they reported (for example in last weeks New York Magazine).

hundreds in total...yes i'm aware of that.

[cintron]

sassa all i said was i thought the article was amusing and informative, and that the reason others may be rude is because we've heard so much about it t hat we're all over saturated.

honestly, chill out. i don't wish to discuss fucked up middle eastern politics and strife and i don't think that makes me moronic. Perhaps i should call you a fucking moron for posting this time and time again? I won't though.

so lay off the insults.