What's next for the Miami scene...

[pod]

Several threads recently have spiraled into a debate of what is wrong/right with the Miami scene.

What do you all seriously see happening in the next few years?

I'm a bit worried, to say the least...

For one, numbers...the numbers are just not there on most nights, especially at the major clubs. As little as two or three years ago, places like Shadow Lounge, crobar, level, Groove Jet, Liquid (Paciello/Casares), even holes in the wall like KGB/Mission were packed to the rafters. Lines blocked off most of the sidewalks, and more often than not, cops were around shouting at people to stay off the road! I know numbers don't count for all, but the quality of the entertainment was there too. Shadow introduced Miami to the trance sound, Groove Jet saw the likes of Sasha and John (waay before their rise to fame) as well as Jon Cowan's Bliss parties, Liquid had the fame and fortune, as well as DJs like Tenaglia dropping by sometimes, and the little holes in the wall sometimes got experimental, leading to parties like Beat Camp (which brought in some top Drum N Bass DJs, by the looks of it...), which even was a cover story in Mixer once! Not bad for a little party. The bullshit pretentiousness was there in full effect of course, too. Clubs like Chaos, Bar Room, and so forth had near-impenetrable velvet ropes. But in a way, the pretentiousness kept away the whole bling-bling element, which stayed put in the Grove pretty much. Those who were smart though could deal with the pretension, and simply go around it.

The rise in club culture brought a lot of good and a lot of bad though. The good thing was, even more performers and DJs came to Miami, since it was profitable for them to do so, the bad element was that the clubs got a little too greedy and started having some truly low-class parties, not necessarily hip-hop oriented, but those parties formed the bulk of it.

To make a long story short, the people who throw good quality events have been scared away, good events still happen, but it's not at the level it once was...I applaud the efforts of Biz, Louis, Carmel, Marco and the PMS people, Xplosion Records, and all the others (you know who you are!) for trying to bring the quality back...but the numbers still aren't there, even though the above party promoters are doing their damndest to make it happen.

So, to set it all off, what needs to happen for our scene to become what it was supposed to be?

[sobeton]

right now I think the economy is affecting the scene; until the economy is back on track. I foresee the club industry in general, continuing to suffer a bit. what I would like to see are more people, out supporting the scene; if and when they can. whether your thing is trance, house, hip-hop, salsa, etc. try to go out at least once a week, and support the scene. it may not be the perfect solution, but at least it will help to keep the scene alive.

[marcodavalos]

Dan...

I share your concern. I've been in South Beach since the early days of the Art Deco District. And have seen the evolution of night life from The Spot, Cameo, Warsaw and the Chilli Pepper (SB), all the way thru the list you just enumerated.

I believe the dramatic change has come since the end of WMC 2001. But also believe we have touched bottom and now is a way uphill, no doubt about it.

April and May are transitional months in South Beach. They are months were already what is called "season" starts to vanish before we get to the hot and slow summer period.

Last summer was a normally slow summer. Nothing out of the ordinary. South Beach depends on its locals during the summer. And locals tend to create enough savings during season, to carry them thru a normal summer, where there is less expenditure but there is reasonable expenditure.

The end of the summer catches locals with the last cents of their savings. They wait for season to increase their standard of leaving and their leisure spending. But when the end of last summer approched all of us, September 11 slapped us badly.

It is well known that South Florida, especially South Beach depends on tourism. It is a domino effect which brings money to the hotel (and all their personnel), to the restaurant (and their kitchen staff, waiters, bartenders), to the retail stores (and their managers and employees), to the clubs (and their securities, bartenders, promoters, managers)....

When an incident as September 11 steps for the first time U.S. soil, and uses the main way of transportation of our days (air), places highly dependent on tourism, like South Beach, suffer the most.

We went in South Beach thru the high season, November 2001 thru March/April 2002, in a fraction of what we were accostomed. The europeans practically did not visit us, northners were suffering the shock of terrorism, learning to cope with it, and worrying of a recession unknown since the Art Deco District implementation.

When locals don't have the ability to create savings that will put them thru the summer, spending is constrained. And as a domino effect, it hits every corner of the South Beach economy.

Narrowing down to the club scene, it is no exception to the lack of cash in SOBE's economy. Clubbers have less money to spend. This is leisure money. And when you hit a slump in the local economy like the one we are going thru, there are more important issues than leisure.

Clubs, and specially new clubs, are targetting mainstream events, such as hip-hop, because the potential client base is inmense compared to house, trance or better, electronic music in general. Locals are not going to this places, they come from mainland, where the economy has been less hit.

Locals are hybernating, awaiting the season to finally come. I'm positive that with the low rates of airfares and hotels, tourists will come in big amounts this season. And that will reactivate the local economy. More money in the locals pocket, more leisure spending.

South Beach locals are here, living in a quite expensive piece of Miami, because they like the lifestyle. The small town feeling of having your favorite club, bar, restaurant, beach, around the corner. And I'm sure they are just waiting for fresh cash to come in for them to go out.

Then the Crobar's, Space's, Spin's, Level's, Lola's, Red's, will have more people attending their events. Both from the tourists and from the locals with a healthier pocket.

Realistically, how much does a local need to go out and have a good time? Maybe 40 dollars. It sounds like a lot nowadays. But it was nothing a couple of years ago.

Lets wait for the season to hit. South Beach's economy has never in the past decade been that bad. And by the way, the only ones not getting hurt are the landlords. Or have they brought down their rents as the clubs have done with their drinks, the restaurants with their menues, the stores with their never ending sales, the hotels with their rates...

Concluding, tourism will reactivate the economy. Will increase income per capita, and will allow more money into leisure spending.

MD

[davidalexander]

Quality topic.....here is my dose centavos..

I believe that the supply is way outstipping the demand in the Beach right now due to a couple of things....

1. The obvious...tourism is down...the economy sucks..people don't travel as much and with all the trouble worldwide..more reasons not to travel.

2. The great Fashion industry that made the beach in 90's has drastically reduced its presence in Miami....

3. The economy sucks...the masses are more cautious with their entertainment dollar...ie..the average joe..has cut his expenditues..therefore..the average club has less income to work with...since they all must compete with free admission, open bar...things unheard of 5 yrs ago..Now clubs have to undercut each other inorder to survice...Undercuting for an extended period in any biz always has negative repurcussions

4. Too many megaclubs...4-5 yrs ago...the beach was controled by the mid sized clubs...GJ, SL, Liquid..smaller spaces..allowed more people to be spread around...now you have 3 megaclubs with 1500+ each every Sat..right now the concentation is with the BIG CLUBS with the Big names..Thats great...I LOVE MY BIG CLUBS....that's where people want to be on a sat...and these megagclubs have to work hard to attract the 1500+ and make money every Sat..but that could be changing and maybe people will be heading out back to the smaller places...like Lola..Red..

5. Lack of supply has caused good clubs to BOTTOM FEED...there is a small supply of quality peeple...so clubs go LCD....thats why there are 30 HIP HOP nights with an open bar..no cover..and people still not tipping the bartender..Hip Hop is popular with the masses..and the clubs...just want warm bodies in there establisments..hoping that they might spend a dollar or 2...

What needs to happen to change the present situation..pure and simple attrition

Lots of clubs need to close...the bottom feeders need to end there run shut down and when that happens there needs to be no more new clubs to open for an adjustment period so no clueless club owner can take it place....and become a BOTTOM FEEDER and UNDERCUT to survive..

Maybe a megaclub or 2 needs to close or change its format...add 2000-3000 people to the mix heading to the midsized clubs and see what will happen...QUALITY CONTROL...no more bottom feeding because the supply of people has increased.

Cooperation....the clubs and the City need to work together..For a couple of years it looked like the City leaders had turned their backs on the Industry that created the Beach resurgance...meet the DEMANDS of the clubgoer...Longer hours with alcohol...afterhours...more parking....it can be done without having the crap return...cause they got rid of the afterhours..and under 21...and it crappier than before...

i guess that it for now

David Alexander

[pod]

Notice that? The beach is "worse" after the 'afterhours law' was put into effect. I'm sure Lieberman and co. didn't consider that part.

True to form for any club, I'm sure The Mix would have closed on it's own by now, due to economic pressures from Space and other clubs, but it would've been nice if the option existed to try another afterhours on the beach.

It's hard to convince a potential club owner to stay that way...they see the $$$s going to Level, crobar, and Space, and think, "If I could grab a piece of that..." , leading to a succession of venues opening and closing in the blink of an eye (Liquid II, and the like...) and faster...

I'm not necessarily advocating a return to the time where every club had a Studio 54 policy, what I really want is a return of quality events. It's being done, the support just isn't there. It's why I try to go out to my friends' events as much as my time permits. Grant it, I gotta get around to shoot most nights, but I always try to at least stop in and show my support for nights like PMS, Ongaku, and Biz's deal over at Spin/Space, which manages to keep a friendly atmosphere in a mega-club environment.

[sobeton]

all of you guys have some valid points. I also wanted to add I think the Miami Beach leaders need to get back involved in the scene. while the city may frown at the thought of after-hours; that issue needs to be addressed. you have many people who will go out to a beach club, and then head over the causeway after 5:00am, or go home. simply because there is nothing left too due on the beach. I am sure there are tons of dollars being lost, not only for sobe clubs, but the restaurants, and such that make up the beach business community. I would like to see more daytime events, like what aquabooty is doing this weekend. it’s an awesome idea, and why not take advantage of a killer location, and the great weather we have year around.. also the clubs themselves may have to make, things a little more appealing to not only for tourist, but the locals as well. bring the cover charges down a bit, lower the drink prices some, have some type of specials going on, etc. this is also not a time when we should be turning our backs, on any segment of the dance music community. house, trance, hip-hop, etc all have a place, and an audience. keep the scene as diverse; as the community that surrounds it. at this point it’s going to take a little creativity; if the scene is going to survive thru the current state of the economy. I hope the scene will never come down, to a few clubs dominating. if that happens you will loose a bit of the variety; which is essential to keeping things interesting, and fresh.

[diegonyc]

pod, it's not just in miami. believe it or not, the NYC scene is suffering just as bad if not worse. bottom line, when the economy flourishes, so will the nightlife. for now, we just have to deal with what we have.

[sandiegino]

I have a ideas about this too that dont have to do with the Miami scene entirely, but it contributes a bit i think.

In Recent years the music scene has been spread out through the states more and more. You hear about parties all over. I used to live in LA a few years ago before moving to San Diego and remember what it was like. It has changed alot. The music scene is growing stronger with time. It seems that there is always a superclub, lounge, dive bar that you could hit and hear quality music from superstar DJs whether its a weekday or weekend (sometimes choices are hard). I see this happening throughout California.

It seems that no matter where you go, there is a large crowd. Clubs now are a mix of glam, celebs, clubber, meat head, stripper crowds.

New clubs/parties are being started alot lately.

I dont know how it is anywhere else but that what i have seen here in california.

Miami was ahead of the game i think for a long time and now it seems that the other major cities are catching up. So people who once went to Miami for the music scene only, will probably think twice now.

I remember the first time being in Miami in 97'. I was F***EN AMAZED by the music, vibe, people, city. I have been going back at least once a year and i do agree, its not the same. I still love it though!!!

Anyway, thats my 2 cents.

[tsheritage]

the little holes in the wall sometimes got experimental, leading to parties like Beat Camp (which brought in some top Drum N Bass DJs, by the looks of it...),

Hey now ... we may have been a "little hole in the wall" as you put it, but you don't have to throw it in our faces! We started BeatCamp in 1997 at Zanzibar, then moved it to The Mission, and finally to Tanja until we closed it just a couple of months ago. Lots of hard work was put into that weekly to keep it running every Thursday for nearly five years ... we owned d'n'b on Miami Beach in the late '90s ... and were the first crew to bring UKGarage to Miami in the spring of 1999. Our crowd was always hype and the place used to get packed, before the laws changed and fuqd everything up (we had an admittedly youthful crowd).

Now, like you say, the underground stuff on Miami Beach is hard as hell to find, there's hip-hop *everywhere* (which I really feel has changed the vibe of Miami Beach immensely) and the over-21 law helped to finish it off. Luckily we still have downtown clubs to do the 18+, but I'm sure we all agree the vibe is not the same in Downtown. Another huge blow was the shutting down of The WOMB and Beach Radio live broadcasts. It was great when we used to be able to cover the beach with our signal and get everyone in their cars on the Washington Ave strip blasting our broadcasts. I'm sorry, but the potential for 93.1 to fill that void hasn't happened quite yet.

I have big hopes for this season, with the radio exposure from Party93.1, to the movement of some of the previous "underground" sounds to bigger venues like Level, Exile, Crobar, etc ... here's wishing the economy hits a rebound and encourages it all to happen. WMC2003 may let us all know if we've still got it in Miami.

[tsheritage]

Two excellent points that compliment each other I think ... not mutually exclusive.

Lack of supply has caused good clubs to BOTTOM FEED...there is a small supply of quality peeple...so clubs go LCD....thats why there are 30 HIP HOP nights with an open bar..no cover..and people still not tipping the bartender..Hip Hop is popular with the masses..and the clubs...just want warm bodies in there establisments..hoping that they might spend a dollar or 2...

this is also not a time when we should be turning our backs, on any segment of the dance music community. house, trance, hip-hop, etc all have a place, and an audience. keep the scene as diverse; as the community that surrounds it.

I hear what David is saying ... the bottom feeder (nice analogy) hip-hop nights bring a crowd that trashes the beach and makes us locals wish for the old days when it was friendly to walk around from club to club. I hated the velvet rope policy as much as any other club-goer, but at least it kept things a bit under control.

And SobeTon has a valid point too, the more diverse the clubs are, the more likely it will be to keep many people satisfied and keep the beach scene thriving ... the problem I see now is that the clubs are more homogenous than ever before.

[vipnerd]

No need for afterhours at the beach. Let the clubs close at 7. That would do it!!!!

Good thread, Pod.

[jasonmarc]

Originally posted by vipnerd

No need for afterhours at the beach. Let the clubs close at 7. That would do it!!!!

Good thread, Pod.

i agree with this....there is no need for alot of afterhours......

to make things short but sweet...THE BEACH SUCKS, Ft Lauderdale should be next in line......

The workforce sucks total ass..noone has a job. economy sucks. I'm still looking for work while freelancing and its hard as helllllllllllllllll!....Government is trying to shut us down for the faults of little raver kids......However, Picotto at SPACE NOV 29th....im there...im on with life... nice post POD

[sobeton]

there’s no need for a bevy of after-hours, however leaving a few options beyond 5:00am will help the surrounding businesses, and clubs. I don’t believe ft. Lauderdale will be a viable alternative to south beach, for quite sometime. as you some may recall it was the ft.lauderdale city government, which all but put an end to spring break and imposed strict conditions upon clubs..imo ft. Lauderdale is comfortable in position they are now; with that sense of suburbia. with clubs and lounges that pretty much, cater to the local folks. dade county still dominates in tourist dollars spent, and that is the backbone of dade county’s economy. also people who live in dade county are less likely to travel, outside of dade county for an evening out. particularly when clubs in broward, close a lot earlier then dade county clubs. conversely folks in broward are more likely, to travel outside of broward; for an evening out.

[CHRles]

Big round of applause to Pod for starting an excellent thread that I see a lot of people responding to with passion and intelligence.

You're all bringing up a lot of good points that might ultimately help your scene go in the direction you all want it to go.

South Beach got so big by the late 90s that it was seen as this bigger than life, sort of epic place (and the Trance and House coming out of some of the clubs with an epic slant was the perfect soundtrack in a lot of ways). Really, most tourists that would come to Sobe would just feel like they're in a very unique place, and a lot of the locals were obviously loving it too.

I think SoBe will remain an active hotspot in North America, if not through the big clubs then through some of the mid to small sized ones, and not b/c there's a current trend in the UK to move away from mega clubs, but rather b/c of a number of other conditions which Miami is facing. But if you think the era of big clubs in Miami is over you ain't seen nothing yet, some will get bigger and better with time...

[djburrito]

Hey! How about some latin rock nights at Lola??? :laugh: :laugh:

now...are you really worried?

Jokes aside, I know what you are talking about P.O.D. and I see things in a simillar way...not exactly nor necessarily the same way.

You see? The crowds have changed but the "needs" have remain. To succesfully react to what the masses demand today is important to be flexible and honestly accept that indeed, there has been a change in needs and a very dramatic one.

South Beach as a party scene goes way further back from the David Padilla's days at The Mix...my second home at the time.

If you saw Andrew blow through Miami in persona, then you will know exactly what I'm talking about.

South Beach used to be a desserted beach town with kick-ass parties only here and there...not a whole lot going on back then, but it sure was good.

You had George Acosta as resident Dj at The Spot exclusively playing for you and your closest 400 friends.

Black Fat Pussycat was also off the chain, you could only go in with a password...members password was Little Red Corvette.

Prince had Purple, Ron Wood had Woody's, Gianni Versace lived down the street, Madonna Used to jog there, Mickey Rourke and Sly Stallone stumbled from club to club always well guarded, but free to roam.

Things have changed you say??? It looks more like a problem of "just because it happens to me is important" my friend. There's a different crowd outh there now...what to do?

To raise this bitch up is all about unity and mutual support.

Godspeed

[pod]

Things have changed, yes...that is to be expected, but not necessairily for the better...I'm not opposed to hip-hop per se, but just the element that it seems to attract, the whole bling-bling mentality gets to me after awhile. I do mourn the loss of the past, sure, but I kinda was expecting something better to take it's place...yeah there would of been a bad side, but not as bad as it is today.

Like I said though, there is hope, there's at least 3 or 4 good parties a week, but they are all struggling in one way or another...the bottom feeding parties taking the dollar, and the resources of the partygoer...

[davidalexander]

Damm Woodys and the Spot..Burrito.you are going back....

Here is another 2 cents...sometimes success brings eventual failure...by way of the ME TOO's remember all those dot.com copycats...same thing happened with da Beach...those that started the scene did so because they were passionate about what they did, the lived it and loved...as success followed...eventually the ME TOO's Clubowners came in lured by what they thought was easy money, fame and females...finding it not So easy...these ME TOO's got desperate, and threw out whatever gameplan they had..and resorted to whatever paid the rent....their clubs became a burden to them...they would count down the days to their lease was over...or some other bright eyed ME TOO bought em out....

Toby situtations brings up a great point...When Beatcamp started they were one of the FEW it not ONLYplaces anyone could hear D&B in the tri-county area....it was so new and fresh...shit..I remember my first time at Zanzibar on a Thursday...I was working the Wed...decided to stop by...on the night Panacea was there...it was so NEW and INNOVATIVE.....fast foward to 02...and D&B is the Mainroom at every rave...a handful of djs became 100's, its on the radio,(WOMB, 88.1, 90.5)..........So what happens...with soo many people in the game...u have to take the good with the bad...its great to see soo many people into a sound....but with necessary increase in supply of an item...D&B, Trance, Clubs..etc...it can lead to a reduction in demand as the item is no longer scarce or as highly desired..it leads to an oversupply....everyone fighting for the same piece of cheese...look at the Compliation market..as an example

Ft. Lauderdale has the opportunity to become..... Ft. Lauderdale...it will never replace the beach.....maybe with time it can become a decent scene for the locals seeking an alterntive to the top40/rock/hip hop scene...props to Jon Cowan..for his effort in trying to bring an underground house scene to Ft. Lauderdale...didnt work...maybe it was too soon...I've been down there once in the last 3 months....it has potential..HELL, the Edge was there once....I guess all it takes is balls, and a dedicated, educated, veteran clubowner/staff...to make it happen....People said that Downtown wouldn't work...and it HASN'T.....except for SPACE....an example of the right team, at the right time....

[djburrito]

Damm Woodys and the Spot..Burrito.you are going back....

Davidalexander, I did go way back...and I kinda did it just for fun

Truth of the matter is, no scene...that's what is boiling down to. Just a bunch of clubs with no connection between each other...discontinuity in sound, crowd and athmosphere. If every other club offers a completely different good, then your crowd is all going to be mixed up and shit. I do not only party here at the beach, I live and work here also...and I see the difference in crowd during the day also. Somewhere along the line, Miami Beach stopped being "ga-ga" ...hey! wait a minute there and give this place some credit...at one point, South Beach was the shit!!! So much I still hold love and respect for it...but sadly, it's becoming day in day out, a big slum...even the odor is unsufferable.

If you are looking for a landmark, I have to agree with P.O.D. the prohibition of after-hours, sent the beach on a downward spyral and we are still caught up in it. Simple math, this fucking thing took 1/2 the profits and now we are 1/2 as rich a city, a party scene and evrything that goes with it.

Is like that bozo who prohibited sping-breaks at Ft.Lauderdale and then had the balls to ask himself "why is business down?"...I think I've made my point clear.

Thanks for such an intelligent thread, it woke me up from my coma!

Soul Donkey

[sobeton]

I live and work on the beach as well. the beach is far from becoming a slum. it has its bad areas as most cities do. you have a major office tower going up around washington and 15th, and I’m sure with the final completion of that, will be the further cleaning up of washington. which imo is a major eye sore. you also major construction projects taking place all over Lincoln road, and the surrounding areas.. although I was not crazy about the commercialization of Lincoln road; it’s turned out quite well. jeez you have people that drive over to the beach to hit up the Regal Cinema; which I find kind of odd. I have lived on the beach for over three years, and to be quite honest, I would not want to live anyplace else. I have everything I want and need, literally within walking distance. for the first time in a longtime, the beach is making the changes; it needs to make to continue to draw people to the beach. the number one tourist destination, in south florida is still miami beach..

[djburrito]

the beach is far from becoming a slum.

Sobeton, I think I exagerated with the term "slum"...I love it here also, so what I'm saying comes from the heart. I guess we are in the middle of a work-in-progress...we'll see what the "new and improved south beach" looks like and works like when it's finished.

let's all hope for better days

Burrito

[sobeton]

Originally posted by djburrito

Sobeton, I think I exagerated with the term "slum"...I love it here also, so what I'm saying comes from the heart. I guess we are in the middle of a work-in-progress...we'll see what the "new and improved south beach" looks like and works like when it's finished.

let's all hope for better days

Burrito