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alivak

Bashing the US

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I recently started reading the posts here and i noticed that 90% trash the United States, i wont even go near the Israeli bashing. I know its done by a few people not everyone, but its really aggrivating especially when you see the hypocracy involved. Lets start with the anti-war movement.

We saw the streets in NY, DC, and London, etc with peaceniks all yapping against bush and blair. Where we these guys when other countries were being invaded. Where were the peace protests when Russia went into Afgan in 1980 - for no reason other then to turn that country into a communist state. At least we were attacked. Where we the peaceniks who marched during Vietnam and still march today whe Soviet Russia went in to the Hungry and Czech Republic and massacred thousands. We saw no one marching on Moscow. How about Iraq invading Iran, did anyone protest that? Or when they invaded Kuwait. Did anyone them become human sheilds for the Kuwiati people? Where are all these peaceniks who yap and yap about the US when others are the aggressors? Can u imagina a protest in the middle of Moscow during Stalin or Kruschev, these people would have been slaughtered. You think Hussein would have allowed a peace protest...you would have ended up in one of those mass graves. However, as soon as the US does something, all hell breaks loose. Its funny what freedom allows you do to. Go protest in China or North Korea, get the hell out of here if you are so concerned.

Then you go around posting artlices and trashing this country like its a sport. All you see here are people trashing this land. We are far from perfect, but why not mention human rights abuses elsewhere like in North Korea where people starve everyday, or the middle east where women are treated like 3rd class citizens. You think the Patriot Act is bad, go to Saudi Arabia and say something about their government - see how quickly they hand you your nuts on a platter. You guys harp on the same crap every day. There are leaders in Africa, Southeast Asia and the middle east who have more blood on their hands then all US presidents combined. Post those articles. dont be hypocrates. You treat Arafat a known terrorist who even had a US diplomat killed in Jordon in the 70's not to mention the olympic massacre, better then your own leaders here. Its pathetic.

The worst part is naturally i am going to be told that i am wrong, yadda yadda. For a group that supposedly believes in tolerance and acceptance - you're neither tolerant nor accepting of other views. You are always right and the other side is either stupid or ignorant. If that's the case, and you are always right, then you should not be on Clubplanet, but solving world problems. Quoting the Guardian - British verision of the NY Post (except for the opposite view) does not prove a point.

there are legitmate issues in the US that can be reasonable discussed, by posting 20 articles a day trashing this country is not one of them. The great thing about this land is that there are open borders - based on the anger and venom that is spewed here - why dont you just leave. there is nothing good that is said here or even offered. Its Bush this, Zionists that, America sucks. Grow the fuck up or get the hell out.

I am not addressing this to anyone in particular, just a rant based on an observation.

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You seem to forget that protest and the power of people to change the country they're living in, is what makes this place so great. What you're suggesting is a police state, where you shut your mouth and don't question what the government does.

Would you be singing the same tune if the government did something that you were against?

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Originally posted by raver_mania

You seem to forget that protest and the power of people to change the country they're living in, is what makes this place so great. What you're suggesting is a police state, where you shut your mouth and don't question what the government does.

Would you be singing the same tune if the government did something that you were against?

I think he is saying people are ungrateful, and that they take advantage of the liberties this country affords them. Protesting an issue because its what you believe is much different than the way certain people carry on, protesting everything this country does for the mere fact that it's America and they protest everything American. People on here will be against something we do even if it benefits everyone involved, causing no harm to anyone because maybe our "intentions" aren't the greatest or maybe there is some alterior motive. If every one benefits, who cares if the U.S. makes a couple extra dollars. That is what makes the world go around.

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raver mania - absolutely right, they are two separate topics, but i didnt really get into it with Israel, and do not want to. I was trying to mention keep it on the US., used Arafat to make a point about the way we look at our leaders compared to some terrorist on the outside who gets more favorable treatment.

I do not want a police state - came from one. Big difference between protest and power to change a state and what goes on here. this is just plain bashing, very partisan and very mean. Didnt work for the right when clinton was in power, not going to work for the left with bush.

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Ok well im not a US basher but u seem to have generalized everyone who was against the war as in this category so i guess ill comment. I agree with your first argument that their is alot of hypocrisy globally in the protesting of actions. The difference between what the Soviet Union did and what we did is simply that the US is where I live and frankly it concerns me what my government does. The US also has a high standard to uphold, the haters wont admit it but it is looked upon as the greatest of all countries so every mistake it makes is heavily criticized.

And we were attacked by Al queda not Iraq, Iraq was a joke country that couldnt even control its own provinces and the connection between the 2 has yet to be made.

Second you make the comparison of how we take for granted our freedoms cause in other countries they do not have these freedoms. Whats the point of having these freedoms if you are not supposed to be able to express them? So you are saying that I am not supposed to be critical of any decision the government makes because, well I'm lucky to be here cause in North Korea there is no political freedom? The whole point of having this freedom is the ability to express it.

I agree that this tends to be exploited many times. It seems that some people tend to just go against the gov. simply for the sake of it. I'm not like that but I'm sure as hell not gonna feel sorry about being against a decision the government makes...

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Originally posted by alivak

I recently started reading the posts here and i noticed that 90% trash the United States, i wont even go near the Israeli bashing. I know its done by a few people not everyone, but its really aggrivating especially when you see the hypocracy involved. Lets start with the anti-war movement.

We saw the streets in NY, DC, and London, etc with peaceniks all yapping against bush and blair. Where we these guys when other countries were being invaded. Where were the peace protests when Russia went into Afgan in 1980 - for no reason other then to turn that country into a communist state. At least we were attacked. Where we the peaceniks who marched during Vietnam and still march today whe Soviet Russia went in to the Hungry and Czech Republic and massacred thousands. We saw no one marching on Moscow. How about Iraq invading Iran, did anyone protest that? Or when they invaded Kuwait. Did anyone them become human sheilds for the Kuwiati people? Where are all these peaceniks who yap and yap about the US when others are the aggressors? Can u imagina a protest in the middle of Moscow during Stalin or Kruschev, these people would have been slaughtered. You think Hussein would have allowed a peace protest...you would have ended up in one of those mass graves. However, as soon as the US does something, all hell breaks loose. Its funny what freedom allows you do to. Go protest in China or North Korea, get the hell out of here if you are so concerned.

Then you go around posting artlices and trashing this country like its a sport. All you see here are people trashing this land. We are far from perfect, but why not mention human rights abuses elsewhere like in North Korea where people starve everyday, or the middle east where women are treated like 3rd class citizens. You think the Patriot Act is bad, go to Saudi Arabia and say something about their government - see how quickly they hand you your nuts on a platter. You guys harp on the same crap every day. There are leaders in Africa, Southeast Asia and the middle east who have more blood on their hands then all US presidents combined. Post those articles. dont be hypocrates. You treat Arafat a known terrorist who even had a US diplomat killed in Jordon in the 70's not to mention the olympic massacre, better then your own leaders here. Its pathetic.

The worst part is naturally i am going to be told that i am wrong, yadda yadda. For a group that supposedly believes in tolerance and acceptance - you're neither tolerant nor accepting of other views. You are always right and the other side is either stupid or ignorant. If that's the case, and you are always right, then you should not be on Clubplanet, but solving world problems. Quoting the Guardian - British verision of the NY Post (except for the opposite view) does not prove a point.

there are legitmate issues in the US that can be reasonable discussed, by posting 20 articles a day trashing this country is not one of them. The great thing about this land is that there are open borders - based on the anger and venom that is spewed here - why dont you just leave. there is nothing good that is said here or even offered. Its Bush this, Zionists that, America sucks. Grow the fuck up or get the hell out.

I am not addressing this to anyone in particular, just a rant based on an observation.

:laugh: :laugh: :blown:

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Originally posted by alivak

I do not want a police state - came from one. Big difference between protest and power to change a state and what goes on here. this is just plain bashing, very partisan and very mean. Didnt work for the right when clinton was in power, not going to work for the left with bush.

thanks for clarifying.

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Originally posted by alivak

STICK TO THE TOPIC - now who's avoiding the subject. ;) . Maybe ur a little insecure, i didnt mention anyone by name

why would i be insecure? I didn't say anything about it being targeted towards me. :blank:

you do have a point, i see it. but other countries are bashed. all governments have problems one way or another. if you want to complain about other states, then do it. so does everyone else. no one's stopping you. btw, the kremlin is one of the most corrupted governments in the world, right alongside the US. they have NO right to be doing what they're doing in chechnya. should have left them be when they declared independence in 1991. but that's another topic to be discussed elsewhere. saudi arabia, NO ONE is saying they're perfect, they are so corrupt it's sickening. so is israel. so is zimbabwe.

please. this isn't an US-only trashing board. other issues are discussed here as well. i see what you mean, but i don't see the point of it also (if that makes any sense)

i also don't agree with how you're lumping everyone who does this in one category. different people have different reasons for attacking the government? isn't this supposed to be a democracy, where you CAN complain and get away with it? and believe me there's a LOT to complain about. people in other countries no doubt complain about their states too. so what was your point really.....

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Originally posted by alivak

I do not want a police state - came from one. Big difference between protest and power to change a state and what goes on here. this is just plain bashing, very partisan and very mean. Didnt work for the right when clinton was in power, not going to work for the left with bush.

True. but unfortunately as much as you don't want to live in a police state as much as I don't want to live in one, I hate to say it but we are living in a police state here unfortunately.

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we do not live in a police state, you have no idea what it is like to live in one. Dislike or hatred for John Ashcroft or the governement, Patriot Act, etc. does not make this a police state. In a police state you would not be able to post half the stuff that you do, just as an example. Forget about speaking negatively against the govt or leaders. You have that ability here, you have the power to protest and live free as u choose

Sassa, I hear ya, my whole point was really just a rant/observation. To compare the old kremlin to Washington in terms of corruption is a huge stretch and i think you know that. I mean the KGB and the secret police. I know we have issues, but nothing like that.

BTW, nice to see this being a civil discussion.

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Originally posted by alivak

we do not live in a police state, you have no idea what it is like to live in one. Dislike or hatred for John Ashcroft or the governement, Patriot Act, etc. does not make this a police state. In a police state you would not be able to post half the stuff that you do, just as an example. Forget about speaking negatively against the govt or leaders. You have that ability here, you have the power to protest and live free as u choose

Sassa, I hear ya, my whole point was really just a rant/observation. To compare the old kremlin to Washington in terms of corruption is a huge stretch and i think you know that. I mean the KGB and the secret police. I know we have issues, but nothing like that.

BTW, nice to see this being a civil discussion.

depends on what you think i was comparing the two to. i was comparing today's kremlin and washington in terms of corruption.

you cannot deny russia has become nothing but a huge mafia state. law comes second to making money there now. sadly. :(

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you said it yourself, Russia is a mafia state, putting politics aside for a sec, the US is not. I cannot see the comparison between the two. I know you feel that we are corrupt and money definitely has corrupted our political system...both parties, the Clintons raised money by the boat load from as far away as China..and bush is doing as well. However, we are still a lawful society run by institutions who are held accountable (to some extent..to say the least). We are not an organized mafia (again do not look this in a partisan way) that is holding the country hostage.

Its is indeed very sad what has happened in Russia because it is a beautiful country with the most natural resources of any land...intellectuals who are being held down by the government even after the fall of communism. It will take time, but in the end i can see democracy working there. You cannot change 75 years of repressive ideology where the government stole, murdered and supressed the people and expect them to change overnight. It all takes time.

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Originally posted by alivak

you said it yourself, Russia is a mafia state, putting politics aside for a sec, the US is not. I cannot see the comparison between the two. I know you feel that we are corrupt and money definitely has corrupted our political system...both parties, the Clintons raised money by the boat load from as far away as China..and bush is doing as well. However, we are still a lawful society run by institutions who are held accountable (to some extent..to say the least). We are not an organized mafia (again do not look this in a partisan way) that is holding the country hostage.

Its is indeed very sad what has happened in Russia because it is a beautiful country with the most natural resources of any land...intellectuals who are being held down by the government even after the fall of communism. It will take time, but in the end i can see democracy working there. You cannot change 75 years of repressive ideology where the government stole, murdered and supressed the people and expect them to change overnight. It all takes time.

i wish they would give independence to those who have died for it. but that's another topic.

how much time.....it's going downhill fast. i'm afraid to even go to my home. :cry:

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sorry, i was referring to chechnya. it's a lost cause. russia needs to just give it up. wasted money and lives.

but the same could probably be said for other places that want their freedom from russian control also.

anyways,

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