Nuclear Arms Reportedly Found In Iraq

[Guest JMT]

tell the Kurds that there were never any WMD.

Tell the Kurds where they got those bio-weapons from...oh thats right we sold them to Iraq...oops

so now we sold them chemical weapons.... any proof or you just making stuff up?

[Guest JMT]

AS I POSTED EARLIER, "LIBERALS" IN AMERICAN NEWS ORGANIZATIONS OUTNUMBER "CONSERVATIVES" 5-1.

HOW MANY CONSECUTIVE DAYS DID THE NYT PRINT A STORY ON ABU GHRAIB???

[Guest obby]

Halliburton is not a conspiracy theory. It's a real company, with real no-bid contracts in Iraq that are well documented.

JFK getting shot by space aliens is a conspiracy theory. Halliburton is current events. I haven't even seen Moore's movie, I just pay attention to current events. Moore seems like a crackpot to me too, but that doesn't eliminate the simple fact that close Bush/Cheney supporters are the only ones benefitting from Iraq.

So you're reprimanding liberals who point out that all of the justifications for war have been shot down and who point out that our fearless leaders have direct personal conflicts of interest. You do that as a footnote to a story about fabricated WMD lies. You condemn us for questioning authority and seeking truth but you do not condemn the people who are lying to you.

Some people are comforted by government propaganda. The Japanese enjoyed listening to Hirohito tell them that they were ordained to rule Asia, and they loved hearing all of the great stories about how they were winning. Made them feel good, comfortable, justified. The Germans ate up the Nazi Party propaganda that told them that they were the chosen few and that they were crushing the opposition. Both populations just ate it up.. until they lost.

An alarming number of Americans are willing to sit and watch Bush tell us "America is safer", "There was a connection", "There are WMD", "Iraq is stable now", "the military operations are over", "mission accomplished". It's so much easier to sit back and trust Dubya and hope that all is well like he's telling us than it is to take responsibility as a citizen of a democracy and think for yourself.

We laughed at the Iraqis who believed Iraqi Information Minister Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf when he told the Iraqis obvious lies from a desperate position. Then we go and glue ourselves in front of Fox News and let Bush do the same thing to us. He's waving his hands and pointing at Iraq while terrorists are rehearsing exactly how they are going to kill some of us here in the US this fall. Pathetic numbers of Americans just smile and talk about how much they admire his leadership as he drops the ball on protecting us.

But hey, we showed the world that we're not pussies. Just like Osama did. Go Bush.

:-X

[Guest demo909]

tell the Kurds that there were never any WMD.

Tell the Kurds where they got those bio-weapons from...oh thats right we sold them to Iraq...oops

so now we sold them chemical weapons.... any proof or you just making stuff up?

Less you forget in the 80's we were allies with Saddam because we thought that Iran was the greater threat in the region. We supplied Iraq with many weapons to help fight his long war with Iran. Many of those weapons were biological and in a twist of fate Saddam used those weapons to gas not only the Iranians, but also his own people...like the Kurds.

It's all true sad to say

[Guest endymion]

There was a story on the US supplying Iraq with chemical weapons that was very widely circulated and cited from 2002. Insert obligatory New York Times joke.

Here's a copy that you don't have to register to read.

[Guest saintjohn]

We supplied Iraq with many weapons to help fight his long war with Iran. Many of those weapons were biological

biological weapons? do you have a cite for this? if so, i'd be very, very interested.

[Guest JMT]

we know that we gave them arms, but it never says we GAVE them any chemical weapons, only that we continued to support them after we knew about their chemical weapons.

you are rewritting history.

[Guest endymion]

No I just posted the link I had nothing to do with that assertion.

[Guest JMT]

tell the Kurds that there were never any WMD.

Tell the Kurds where they got those bio-weapons from...oh thats right we sold them to Iraq...oops

so now we sold them chemical weapons.... any proof or you just making stuff up?

Less you forget in the 80's we were allies with Saddam because we thought that Iran was the greater threat in the region. We supplied Iraq with many weapons to help fight his long war with Iran. Many of those weapons were biological and in a twist of fate Saddam used those weapons to gas not only the Iranians, but also his own people...like the Kurds.

It's all true sad to say

ive never seen or read direct proof of non-conventional weapons dealing. you are inferring that happened.

[Guest saintjohn]

No I just posted the link I had nothing to do with that assertion.

i read the story you linked. in it, i did not find any suggestion that the us government supplied iraq with chemical weapons. on the contrary, the article states that:

"Former Secretary of State Shultz and Vice President Bush tried to stanch the flow of chemical precursors to Iraq and spoke out against Iraq's use of chemical arms"

how does that make the article "a story on the US supplying Iraq with chemical weapons"?

[Guest JMT]

No I just posted the link I had nothing to do with that assertion.

correct my man, that was really just directed at demo.

[Guest endymion]

Like I said, I had nothing to do with the chemical weapons assertion. I posted the link to the frequently-cited NYT article that I happened to know about. I don't have an opinion on whether US participation assisted Saddam's chemical or biological WMD programs.

[Guest saintjohn]

thanks for the clarification.

i know you had nothing to do with the original assertion, i was just questioning why you chose to characterize the nyt article that you linked as "a story on the US supplying Iraq with chemical weapons." a more accurate description would be "a story on the us stanching the flow of chemical weapon precursors to iraq while simultaneously ignoring the fact that saddam was gassing iranians and kurds," but whatever.

the important thing is we both agree that michael moore is a crackpot.

i'm saintjohn and i approved this message.

[Guest JMT]

i'm saintjohn and i approved this message.

LOL!

[Guest saintjohn]

We supplied Iraq with many weapons to help fight his long war with Iran. Many of those weapons were biological

i don't mean to be a nag, but i'd really, really, really like to see some support for this claim.

[Guest JMT]

We supplied Iraq with many weapons to help fight his long war with Iran. Many of those weapons were biological

i don't mean to be a nag, but i'd really, really, really like to see some support for this claim.

i think we can all agree that there isnt any.

[Guest saintjohn]

of course there isn't any such evidence, but that doesn't stop certain individuals from claiming otherwise.

with all of the well-documented cases of government misconduct, why would someone feel compelled to make such an outrageous claim? is there some virtue in always and immediately believing the very worst of one's elected officials? honest political discussion is one thing - casually stating that "we" supplied iraq with biological weapons is quite another.

[Guest obby]

Because everything is our fault. We are evil war mongers. We have done nothing for this world.

:

[rbs]

I just spent 30 minutes reading all these posts. Some of you might know my stand on this matter. I served the US Navy for 5 years. I support any commander in chief. Republican or Democratic. I will never back down from what we chose to do.

Like I said before. We only know what the "Govt." wants us to know. Things happen everyday that we will never even know about. Trust me I know. I did things you wouldn't even imagine. All I know is that there was a price for Osama since 98-99 when Clinton was in office. And ever since 9/11, the military or US Embassy's have not been attacked. We are in a safer time. For how long who knows. I don't doubt there won't be more attacks but until then I sleep safer. And about the Iraqi civilians, Freedom has a price. It always has since the begining of time. Persian Empire, Roman Empire, etc....

[Guest obby]

Your service to our Country is highly respectable in my eyes.

Like I mentioned in one of my post. "I know how I feel. Freedom ain't free. Never has been. I've personally lost a cousin in Iraq and understand the sacrifices. I'm sorry to read so many posts from people who either cannot or will not face the threat our generation has been handed. I thank God for all the sacrifices made by all Americans."

[Guest endymion]

I show respect for our military, not disrespect, by second-guessing our leadership. Military service is not automatically, inherently noble. Following unjust orders is dishonorable. Therefore the only defense against our military being dishonored is our society openly debating whether our military is being used in a just manner. Blindly following any leader is un-American.

[Guest saintjohn]

Blindly following any leader is un-American.

i see we agree again.

[rbs]

Blindly following any leader is un-American.

Then I guess your freedom here doesn't mean anything. If it does, then you must not mean the statement you made and you are just being devil's advocate.

[Guest endymion]

I don't understand your logic RBS. The whole point of our country is Americans defending democratic ideals by actively participating in the decisions.

If we lived in a country full of people who were willing to unquestioningly fight against whatever menace their leadership wants to fight that year ("Oceania is at war with Eastasia. Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia. War is peace.") then we would live in a country that was not worth fighting for.

I do believe that this thread is misguided overall. The nukes that weren't found in Iraq and the biological weapons that we probably didn't help Saddam to make are both examples of people trying hard to create new dirt, where there is no need for new dirt. As Saint John points out, there is plenty of compelling reality to consider when trying to find your compass in these complicated times. There is no need to make things up.

[rbs]

Tech, I respect everything you say. At least you have a lot of history and you think things thru. You obviously don't like war, only for self defense.

But the very land you sit on and love and party and gives you employment , was made up by soldiers following unjust orders. We slaughtered all the indians we could find and made this our land. That was unjust, but in the overall scheme, it was brilliant for us. It was a shame for the indians.

We can go on and on with this war. It might be unjust for us now, but how do you know it will not be brilliant in years to come?

You said, "The whole point of our country is Americans defending democratic ideals by actively participating in the decisions." I believe the point of our country is to appoint those we feel will be the best decision makers. That is why we have elections every four years. To make sure the people want the present candidate or a new one.