Message From The Respectable Fmr. NYC Mayor Rudy Giuliani

[Guest obby]

"I think every American should see this..." -- Fmr. NYC Mayor Rudy Giuliani

http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/080304v1.wmv

Can you say flip flop?

????

[V. Barbarino]

my god, that guy is a wacko.. I don't know who i'm going to vote for, but I saw tht entire interview on cbs and he was dancing around the question and leslie stall wouln't let him go, and I saw the dan rather one too, and he just has no answer.

[Guest endymion]

His opinion changed on that issue when he realized that Bush had been lying. Just like the rest of us.

You guys are unable to grasp that many of us feel that we have been lied to about the certainty of our WMD intelligence. If you don't feel that you have been lied to then you only see a guy supporting a war and then not supporting a war. Looks like a "flip-flop" to you. To me it looks like a guy realizing he's been lied to and changing some conclusions that he had made based on those lies.

If you're looking for Kerry supporters to beat up then I'm not one so don't bother, but this little smear animation doesn't really say anything about Kerry. It says a lot about the simplistic mindset of the guy who made the animation, but not much else.

[V. Barbarino]

kerry saw the same intel that bush saw.

keep trying tech...

[Guest obby]

His opinion changed on that issue when he realized that Bush had been lying. Just like the rest of us.

You guys are unable to grasp that many of us feel that we have been lied to about the certainty of our WMD intelligence. If you don't feel that you have been lied to then you only see a guy supporting a war and then not supporting a war. Looks like a "flip-flop" to you. To me it looks like a guy realizing he's been lied to and changing some conclusions that he had made based on those lies.

If you're looking for Kerry supporters to beat up then I'm not one so don't bother, but this little smear animation doesn't really say anything about Kerry. It says a lot about the simplistic mindset of the guy who made the animation, but not much else.

LOL

What lies?

The lies you claim were made are absurd. The entire White House, Congress, Clinton's entire admin, The entire UN, all of Europe, Africa and Asia, Australia, NATO ....ALL made the same claim. HE HAS WMD's. In order for your logic to be true, the entire world would have had to be in on this "LIE"???

Let it go bro. The world's intel may have been less accurate, but how does that make it a Bush lie? Stop for a second and listen to yourself.

I can only assume that You are motivated by hate which was fueled by misleading Bush haters. Not one fact is on your side. If you go issue, by issue, you'll learn that you've been misled about Bush. He's nothing you accuse him of. You can't back up any of your opinions w/ hard facts. Half-truths,,,maybe?? But that doesn't make it so......GET IT?

That documentary is what it is. Its Kerry himself saying what Bush told us, only it was in the 90's, when Bush was still Governor of Texas. Stop embarrassing yourself by repeating absurd accusations which have ALL BEEN DISPROVED. Why you blur the line between fact and opinion is beyond me? A fact is a fact is a fact. An opinion based on a fact is one thing, but that does not change the fact. GET IT? Open the door, see the light, take a fresh breath of air. I guarantee you'll feel better. If that Kerry documentary is the equivalent of a snuff film for rabid liberals that's your problem. It is what it is. THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE.

;D

[Guest endymion]

Look at the dates on the sound bites in your defamation animation. Then go look a the dates on the articles in my explanation of Bush's lie about the state of the union address. I'll repeat it all here if you really want. Honest people change their position when information underpinning their position turns out to be untrue. Dishonest people just keep telling the same story even after they find out that their rationalizations are false.

Here let me simplify this for you: you ask a bouncer at Crobar, "Do you think that people with fake ID's should be allowed in?" He says no. Checks your ID, lets you in. You point out to him that your ID is a fake and then call him a flip-flopper for letting you in. That makes sense to you?

It seems to me that you guys are digging.

[bornslippy22]

interesting film....

[Guest obby]

Look at the dates on the sound bites in your defamation animation. Then go look a the dates on the articles in my explanation of Bush's lie about the state of the union address. I'll repeat it all here if you really want. Honest people change their position when information underpinning their position turns out to be untrue. Dishonest people just keep telling the same story even after they find out that their rationalizations are false.

Here let me simplify this for you: you ask a bouncer at Crobar, "Do you think that people with fake ID's should be allowed in?" He says no. Checks your ID, lets you in. You point out to him that your ID is a fake and then call him a flip-flopper for letting you in. That makes sense to you?

It seems to me that you guys are digging.

LOL

So Bush lies and Kerry "changes his position" ?????

Right !!!!!!!

[Guest JMT]

very interesting film. this guy is incredible.

[Guest endymion]

LOL

So Bush lies and Kerry "changes his position" ?????

Right !!!!!!!

Please do yourself a favor and look at the dates in this video that you're so proud of. Really man, activate some neurons. Put this stuff into context. You lived through these times too, you remember what was going on at the time. If you're going to bring this up in the first place then you owe the subject the benefit of some sort of conscious thought.

Back when Bush was telling us that he was absolutely certain that he knew that Saddam was about to hand nukes to Osama bin Laden, Kerry and lots of other Democrats and Republicans alike supported the concept of war as a last resort. Bush did not use war as a last resort, he just attacked first, asked questions later. That was not what Kerry was supporting and this video is very misleading on that highly important point. Move forward through time to after the war, as all of the justifications for the war turn out to be lies. Kerry and lots of other people begin to characterize Bush's push for war as "misleading" for reasons that I have documented pretty fully already.

What do you do if you're in that position? Do you continue to support the war like an idiot knowing that you were misled or do you acknowledge that we have been misled and vow not to repeat the same pattern? If he had continued to support the war after the WMD and all of the other justifications turned out to be bullshit then you would call him a pussy. If he opposes it as his conscience dictates then you call him a 'flip-flopper'. Kerry is characterizing the war as a rushed, botched job that we were misled into approaching in the first place. That isn't a flip-flop, it's a realization. Bush told us that he was certain that there were WMD in Iraq when he knew that the evidence that he was telling us about was faked. That's not a mistake, it's a lie.

You can say mean things about Kerry regardless of his actual actions and regardless of whether or not his actions were appropriate if you can just prevent people from putting any of their own thought into the matter. Look at the dates, think about the context in those statements. You wanted people to think about Fahrenheit 9/11, about whether what Moore was saying was objectively true or subjectively misleading. You have the same burden here. Look at the dates in this video.

[V. Barbarino]

for the record i'm back skipping over techs posts. he is just so far gone it's worthless.

[bornslippy22]

after the fact, Kerry is using the "last resort" line...the Dems are just as guilty as Bush...if u wanted war as a last resort u put up measures within the bill to block the Prez from using it as a "first resort"...i mean they (Dems) could have taken their sweet time and set up the checks and balances NOT to allow strike first, ask questions later tactics...they didnt, which leads me to believe that: a) they pretty much wanted to take Saddam out as well or or are extremely naive...either way, if i am Kerry and i was "mislead" (as u stated), being a Vietnam Vet, i would abstain from the vote...but i would never vote against money that is going to our soldiers over there, that will be used for equip. and ammo...the soldiers are over there, if u were fooled i understand ur anger and outrage...but i would NEVER block money that will be going to our soldiers once they are over there...just my .02 cents

[LESjunkie]

for the record i'm back skipping over techs posts. he is just so far gone it's worthless.

no...you're exhausted because he is smarter than you and you are tired of researching how to respond to his posts...

[V. Barbarino]

for the record i'm back skipping over techs posts. he is just so far gone it's worthless.

no...you're exhausted because he is smarter than you and you are tired of researching how to respond to his posts...

smarter than me?

lol, what are we 3 years old?

dude, seriously, you hate bush due to gay marriage, so please shut the fuck up and show you true colors.

[LESjunkie]

for the record i'm back skipping over techs posts. he is just so far gone it's worthless.

no...you're exhausted because he is smarter than you and you are tired of researching how to respond to his posts...

smarter than me?

lol, what are we 3 years old?

dude, seriously, you hate bush due to gay marriage, so please shut the fuck up and show you true colors.

I don’t hate Bush persay- I just think he is an idiot and not a good president…and believe me, I have many more issues with him than his gay amendment bullshit…you trying to “expose†or make fun of me for this is comical and if it was an attack that you think would hurt me or demoralize me than you’re so mistaken- Things are too amazing in my life for me to ever be upset over who I am or whether or not I’m gay or straight, pookie. :-*

[ryan2772]

and what does all this have to do with giuliani?

[V. Barbarino]

and what does all this have to do with giuliani?

he put creedance into the film, by saying "go see it"

[Guest endymion]

after the fact, Kerry is using the "last resort" line...

Whoa, stop, false statement alert!! The debate before the war as to whether to employ diplomacy or whether to just attack was forefront. Bush giving up on diplomacy and attacking before weapons inspectors did their job was the huge hot-button issue at the time. Characterizing Kerry's objections to the way that Bush proceeded as "after the fact" is simply false.

I don't want to get into the business of automatically defending Kerry any time any of you attack him, but please don't try to rewrite history.

[bornslippy22]

Whoa, stop, false statement alert!!

but please don't try to rewrite history.

Back when Bush was telling us that he was absolutely certain that he knew that Saddam was about to hand nukes to Osama bin Laden, Kerry and lots of other Democrats and Republicans alike supported the concept of war as a last resort.

false alert indeed...just using the words u were using...i guess ur right, i AM trying to re-write history... :

[Guest trancepriest]

smarter than me?

lol, what are we 3 years old?

dude, seriously, you hate bush due to gay marriage, so please shut the fuck up and show you true colors.

Today Koko the gorilla said that she's smarter than Saleen.

[Guest endymion]

I am absolutely astonished to see this simplistic attitude on some of you guys, where you can't understand how somebody could support an honorable war but condemn a dishonorable war. That sort of simplisitc religious world view is exactly what drives Al Qaeda. You can't be ideologically opposed to an ideology if you share the same ideology.

You're trying to reduce a very complex situation into two mutually exclusive options, either blindly supporting the war or opposing it completely. Classic simplistic neoconservative good-versus-evil mentality. Life is unfortunately not a Sunday school parable, it's way more complex than just black-or-white. You aren't doing anybody any favors by pretending that those were the only two options. I'm not even a Kerry fan but I'm not such an idiot that I will allow somebody to try to convince me that he reversed a position that he didn't reverse by pigeonholing a sophisticated position into "YOU'RE EITHER FOR US OR AGAINST US!!" What I am primarily voting aginst in November is that idiotic and simplistic mindset.

Kerry supported going tough against Saddam when the false British and Bush administration rationalizations were widely thought to be probable. Even then he supported diplomacy first, he supported letting weapons inspectors complete their jobs before acting rashly, and he never supported attacking prematurely or on false pretense. To refer to his position as a reversal you have to establish that he was in favor of attacking Iraq after the justifications began to fall apart. Go ahead and haul out some documentation, I'm eager to see it.

[bornslippy22]

sorry to have "pissed" u off by shoving ur own words back in ur face...but never answered my question....why not set up safeguard when he and the rest of the Dems agreed to using force? why give the Prez a absolute power to do what he wishes in Iraq? i dont have anything against people changing their minds once the truth comes out...thats absolutely logical to do so...but dont paint Kerry as not being on board for all of this...and again, u can be against the war, but to deny necessary equip. to ur troops over there (whether u were tricked or whatever) is down right wrong...u dont like the bill on the floor? abstain...u fail to realize that we are in the mess b/c of Bush, but i dont think ANY congressman/congresswoman that voted yes for that resolution can wash their hands either...

[Guest endymion]

...and again, u can be against the war, but to deny necessary equip. to ur troops over there (whether u were tricked or whatever) is down right wrong...

Was the bill narrowly, simplistically about whether to fund our troops? Is this entire topic an attempt to pigeonhole rather than to analyze? Has anybody here put any effort at all into even reading the bill in question or are you watching the video clip at the beginning of this thread and going "YEAH!!" like a Michael Moore fan does when he watches Fahrenheit 9/11?

You guys are not doing anybody any favors by encouraging people to adopt simplistic positions without thinking about them. That's not democracy.

[rbs]

Even then he supported diplomacy first, he supported letting weapons inspectors complete their jobs before acting rashly, and he never supported attacking prematurely or on false pretense.

Didn't Bush give Sadam three chances to let UN inspectors in and he laughed in Bush's face....Come on. Let's face facts like you say.

[Guest mursa]

They have a saying " wherever there is a pile of shit a fly is never too far behind " .....hence the comical union between SALEEN & OBBY in this thread . ...both think the US is gods gift to the universe , europe is thrash , and look down upon anyone who doesn't worship the red/white & blue .

blah blah blah kerry saw the same intelligence that bush did ?! , always an excuse ..little do they realize that the President is the person who has to take the MAXIMUM RESPONSIBILITY ( COMMANDER & CHIEF !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ) for any " fuck ups" ...kerry is only one of a few hundred senators that fell for "misinformation" .

RBS..... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3556714.stm