UPDATED**-LP arrested at Space for noise violation. UPDATED**

[Guest endymion]

Umm yeah, it's doing absolutely splendidly.

http://www.miamiherald.com/460/story/47862.html

Read the story that you referenced if you're using it as evidence that there is no interest in the PAC. The PAC is selling tickets and making revenue very well. It's in the red at the moment because of cost overruns, not slow ticket sales.

If you would go and take a look at the place and see that BOTH halls are frequently PACKED for performances, then you would have a better idea of what's going on.

[Guest pod]

Well, considering they planned on not even being half a million in the red, I'd say they've got some major issues to address. Going past your deficit estimates by a factor of six or more is pretty harsh.

For better or for worse, the performing arts is the entertainment of choice for the wealthy and affluent. You're right, they've got the money and they vote. Again, the elitism I spoke about in another thread. They don't want "those" people near "their" center, so they're gonna make some noise, bribe the officials (vote? Bullshit, you forget Miami isn't a democracy), and then so let it be done.

I have zero problems with making money, but what I have an issue with is when the moneyed class throws it's weight around like this.

Again, I mean how bad is it really to have nightclubs around? At a realistic level? Are you dead then next day because Space is in operation? Did dance music fans affect your livelihood?

Oh, and let me tell you this, what if the club district only catered to a hip-hop crowd? They'd be in twice the trouble for reasons which are very deep-seated in upper-class society.

[Guest meta]

They haven't even had any major events happen there yet. I think everything is really going to start rolling at the Performing arts towards the end of the year.

[Guest endymion]

Again, I mean how bad is it really to have nightclubs around? At a realistic level? Are you dead then next day because Space is in operation? Did dance music fans affect your livelihood?

Nightclubs, with all of their nuisances, lower property values.

When nightclubs are in warehouse districts, nobody cares. When nightclubs are in areas where people care about property values, people care.

People who care about property values have better political representation than nightclub patrons and not just because they're rich, mostly because they pay attention.

[Guest ramon]

we need to have something like Sonar in Miami imo.

That would be something great for the PAC.

[Guest nickjunkie]

we need to have something like Sonar in Miami imo.

That would be something great for the PAC.

Prediction at work or just random comment?

[Guest pod]

When nightclubs are in warehouse districts, nobody cares. When nightclubs are in areas where people care about property values, people care.

People who care about property values have better political representation than nightclub patrons and not just because they're rich, mostly because they pay attention.

Umm, the clubs all are converted warehouses. The entertainment district was located there just for that reason. Putting the condos there was piss-poor strategic planning.

And no, they don't pay attention. At the end of the day it comes down to who has more money. The type of people buying up property down there aren't exactly what you or I would call politically aware. They just know that they or their Reichstag-esque HOAs will bribe the authorities if there's a "problem", which, again, like I've been saying, there really isn't in the grand scheme of things. A problem would be if the street was still in the shape it was circa 1997.

It's just sad really. And I'm willing to bet a lot of these properties are owned by speculators and not actual residences. Like the PAC, all these wildly optimistic projections for the condos are not gonna pan out. I got kicked out of my apt 2 years ago for a condo to be built, and guess what, my apt is still there since they never got enough interest to actually build the condo. Yeah it wasn't that hot (you saw it), but I planned on actually renovating the place until I got the boot.

[Guest ramon]

we need to have something like Sonar in Miami imo.

That would be something great for the PAC.

Prediction at work or just random comment?

a little of both.

www.sonar.es for those not familar with it.

[Guest dre4]

someone should build a condo with a night club on the property (separate entrances of course among other factors) and disclose that in the condo docs or disclose the fact that there are clubs nearby and only market to people who love to party and have a good time. there are plenty of wealthy people who love to party. many of the people in the continuum and portofino are party animals. not sure if this idea would ever work, but just throwing it out there

[Guest endymion]

When nightclubs are in warehouse districts, nobody cares. When nightclubs are in areas where people care about property values, people care.

Umm, the clubs all are converted warehouses. The entertainment district was located there just for that reason. Putting the condos there was piss-poor strategic planning.

I agree. An excerpt from the CRA's 2002 Master Plan, transplanted from another thread:

Attempts will be made to create a true, 24-hour functioning environment built

around an “after-hour†entertainment venue that is now developing loosely in the area.

...

Also, the noise and gaiety inherent in such entertainment, by defini-

tion, calls for creativity in design to overset upon the ground floor uses a series of

apartments desirable for extended residency.

...

Miami, with 69 percent of its population foreign-born, is a perfect location to test

new mixed-use tenures and coupling of uses. Lots of younger people are highly toler-

ant to lively music and art scenes for a living environment.

...

In many ways, these emerging clusters of apart-

ment dwellers are not devoted to the counterculture but rather want to be situated at a

location offering a blended mixture of music, galleries and a vibrant nightlife over the

more standard form of passiveness.

That was the plan. We can see how the reality is different from that plan. The critical difference is that the people moving into the luxury condos are not "younger people are highly tolerant to lively music and art scenes for a living environment".

Didn't they tell us that we would be greeted with flowers as "liberators"? Wasn't that the plan? Nobody put any thought into this plan at all before initiating it?

Or... did the commissioners behind the CRA plan have other stakes in everything that's happening that we don't even know about? Well at this point that's obvious. After Teele's suicide that's obvious. Look at the property records for the properties to the west of club Space and that's obvious. Big things are happening in that area soon and 24-hour outdoor dance party events will not be a part of it.

[Guest pod]

Here's one thing though, you build all these residential facilities, and then take away entertainment, what's left? The PAC? Please. No offense if that's what floats your boat, but by some people's yardsticks, I'm an uncultured baboon, so the PAC isn't directed at my market segment of 1.

We'll be Cleveland with palm trees at this rate. I would just like to think with rational discourse and proper planning, the PAC, the condos, and the clubs could all exist in one city.

[Guest tres-b]

Anytown, USA

There is a "cool, gritty" area where the clubs and more importantly, the after-hours clubs are located. There are a few residents in the neighborhood that live and work in the scene. More and more people start moving to the area and more condos get built. The people moving move to the "cool" area but it turns out they arent all that cool.

Next thing you know, the clubs are in the crosshairs...noise violations, code enforcement, closing times are changed and soon there is no profit in the clubs. The clubs close and bam...the "problem" is no longer in the neighborhood.

Miami is a couple years behind Atlanta on this but the path is very much the same.

[Guest endymion]

Here's one thing though, you build all these residential facilities, and then take away entertainment, what's left?

It's about what kind of entertainment remains. The idea is for the clubs that remain in Park West to be indoor venues, without crowds in the streets outside waiting to get in, and with tight enforcement on noise and trash codes. If noise and nuisance begin to outweigh the benefits of allowing a 24-hour zone (the subsidizing of parking, which was exposed as a worthless sham even before commissioner Teele killed himself) then bye-bye 24-hour licenses and outdoor after-hours events on terraces.

It's all spelled out completely in the public documents that are currently being used to shape the area. Don't just bitch, read them.

[Guest pod]

Yeah I know what the "master plan" is. I'm down there every weekend, and I do more than just drink and take photos of random people. I converse with managers, PD, code enforcement, parking attendants, you name it.

What my "bitch" is essentially is that people are being too sensitive. I mean, it isn't like the nearest residential facility is next door to the clubs, and it really isn't *that* loud near the condos.

I can understand the nuisance aspect of the crowds, but right now, I don't see random drunks other than the resident ones (the bums) near the condos.

With proper planning and procedures, the clubs, the PAC, and condos can coexist. Noise abatement is possible with proper sound engineering. People point out Opium as an example of "it can't be done", but you and I both know it can. Opium's sound system is from the Stone Age, and the noise abatement there is a half-assed attempt.

We both know some very talented sound engineers locally who can do this.

In the end, it comes down to the willingness of the clubs to actually do something about it. Because at the end of the day it is a business. Is it worth the tens of thousands of dollars to invest in noise abatement? Is it worth the hundreds of thousands to do it right with a proper sound system in the first place? A few weeks ago, I had an extended discussion with one of the top engineers in the biz, and the sound reinforcement companies know how to fix this problem. The question is, can the clubs afford it?

As for the people? Well, just enforce existing drunk and disorderly laws. Don't be afraid to haul Miss Thing in if she's being a disgrace to her parents and cursing out people in the middle of the street.

[Guest nickjunkie]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/4389057.stm

[Guest Electric Eel]

This whole issue kind of reminds me to what happened at Cocowalk. If anyone remembers Howl at the moon and other places that were there. The community voted to kick them out to make it more of a family oriented place. I guess it didn't make much money because now there are more clubs and bars there than ever before. So even if they do end up closing Space and the other downtown clubs i'm sure within a few years they will try to bring something similar back into the area.

[Guest endymion]

As for the people? Well, just enforce existing drunk and disorderly laws. Don't be afraid to haul Miss Thing in if she's being a disgrace to her parents and cursing out people in the middle of the street.

You and the CRA both share the same fantasy of the well-behaved, law-abiding club kids. That idea might look good on paper but's just not what really happens. Club kids get fucked up and then spill out into the nearby area making noise, getting into fights, and puking on things.

Like it or not, the future of 24-hour venues is to the west. Way west. Near the airport. Where property values are low and nobody cares about noise. Do you see nearby residents filing nuisance complaints against Miami Velvet? Nope.

[Guest pod]

I said that awhile ago actually when the whole Opium thing went off, that the Airport area is perfect for clubs. Let's put it this way, that's a compromise I could live with eventually. Gets them away from the Orlando-fied (oh yes, it is coming...) South Beach, and provides a haven for the "real" clubgoers.

People still bitch about airport noise. Ask Larry Ellison. He lands his MiG at 3 AM, and they whine. But he's Larry Ellison so there's not a damn thing they can do about it. The city fines him $10,000, he laughs and considers it a cost of flying a fighter jet. In the words of a blog I read ages ago, Ellison is the type of guy who would take a dump on your floor, tell you to clean it up, and you'd feel honored.

As for well-behaved club kids? I don't expect that.

What I expect is a more proactive approach by law enforcement to people on the street acting up. Like I said, haul 'em in, process 'em, and put 'em to work cleaning the neighborhood up the next day. Stripping some in-everything-but-the-name woman of the night of her Prada and Gucci, and fitting her with a county-issued jumper will do wonders. And that 'roided up guy trying to take on the entire street will suddenly become real tractable after he has to pick trash up, hungover, in 90 degree plus heat.

[Guest coach]

You start enforcing laws and the clubbers will *quickly* migrate to somewhere else, even if it is their buddy's living room.

[Guest pod]

How little faith you have. By and large, the clubgoing lot is what I call weekenders looking to blow off some steam. 80 percent of them go out and go home without incident. Even by "normal" standards. Yeah, they get rowdy, but nothing that I would consider a danger.

The other 20 percent? Well, you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. Haul 'em off and be done with it. Let them party at their apartments and OD, that's fine by me. Better there than out on the street.

[Guest 4040]

Something off the topic. I work for southern wine and spirits and one of the sales reps just told me that she went on a sales call and was in the office with lp and his attorneys. lp asked about the inventory on roeder crystal magnums and the attorney asked how much it is per bottle. The sales rep said its $500 a bottle at wich time the attorney said no to lp you can not get that. Any input?

[Guest endymion]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/4389057.stm

You know Nick, I was going to suggest this but I thought it was just too nerdy to even mention. I could make this happen pretty cheaply with Bluetooth. Use your own phone headset or rent headsets from the club that have better bass and don't need to be paired. DJ-booth-to-Bluetooth bridge in software on a Mac.

I didn't even mention it because I know that this will never happen if I propose it in nightlife. That's just not the way that the nightclub industry looks at problems. If I go over and propose it to the New World Symphony then there's a good chance that they will find me a grant and ask me to build it for real.

You're a guy from Anywhere, chilling by the symphony garden in Miami Beach and playing with the free city wi-fi. They project video of the symphony performing live on the side of the giant Frank Gehry symphony hall, and they play the audio live on speakers in the park, but you're too far away to hear them. You can stream it live on the Internet if you have your computer, but if you don't then you can just pair your phone's headset to a Bluetooth broadcaster in the park and listen live that way.

All of that (minus the Bluetooth headset part) is really happening. Our nightlife scene is advancing. That park and all of that will really be here for the 2010 season, and it won't be a Nocturnal that doesn't really happen until 2015 and then turns out wildly different than its sales pitch. Miami Beach counters the PAC with the NWS, Miami counters with its own entertainment district redevelopment in the Park West area in addition to the PAC and the Omni area maturing.

City commissioners are way more focused on entertainment of that variety than they are on dark warehouses full of kids who need to find a place to go at 7 AM because they're on drugs so they can't sleep. That's why comissioners are actively planning out what kind of entertainment remains in the Park West Entertainment District once the area is fully developed. Is there evidence that the city sees the night clubs as a tourist draw, or do they see them as a way to fill under-utilized parking spaces to enable redevelopment until something better comes along?

Put another way: how many events in Park West are listed in the calendars at the Miami Convention and Visitors' Bureau?

[V. Barbarino]

Out west won't work, considering it doesn't work where it's at right now. Do you people actually think those clubs are turning a profit besides Space???

The answer is NO!

Now here is another conspiracy theory. If you own a club at the Hard Rock or down town lauderdale, where they don't fuck with the clubs noise levels how do you protect yourself? Simple, you get Space shut down. Once Space is gone, the whole block falls.

[Guest leveldwella]

They should take it a step further with the low end transposed into subsonic vibrations and then pumped into the dancefloor!!

then you could feel it as well!

you would probably have to suspend the dance floor on dampeners to truly make it silent so it wouldn't bother anyone.

hell then the next step would be a personel setup and VR eyewear ...club from your own house.

ehh i like the old fashioned way!

there needs to be more soundproofing.

[Guest]

Judging from the drawings of what the city has planned for this area (in the .pdf file i viewed) it looks like they are trying to make the area more like a city walk/downtown disney type place in Orlando.. Lots of shops, restaurants, bars, etc.

If the city had any sense whatsoever, they would allow for that block to remain open.. and when it is time... force the clubs to give those ugly ass warehouses a nice outter facelift that goes along with the look of the rest of the development that they have planned. All in all, everybody wins.

As for the patio.. I could careless if it comes or goes, but I guess the point that I am trying to make is why not have world class nightclubs in a new/modern looking/cleaner/safer entertainment district that they are trying to develop?

Srsly, if you can look into the future... Imagine that we are in let's say 5 years from now in that area... Bars everywhere, clubs everywhere, world class restaurants everywhere, shopping, movies, etc. I think it would be pretty damn cool to grab a dinner, watch a movie, hit up a little bar for drinks... and hit Space all night after that. It would be a one stop shop.

Also.. how is it that these condos are more concerned about Space than that sleezy titty bar at the corner? They are more concerned about a little noise than prostitution? Thats assbackwards in my opinion.