Circumcized vs. Uncircumcized

[ken2a]

circopath = someone with genital-cutting syndrome.

there is no pathology in the tissue; the pathology

is in the mind of the circumciser.

[gambitrah]

FWIW: most of the guys i know that got snipped were also because of religious reasons. I know its a 'catholic' thing to do (being irish\catholic)...what about the Jewish barmitzsfa? (sp?)...hmmm snippy snippy in front of the world..real cool...lol..

[tastyt]

Originally posted by gambitrah

FWIW: most of the guys i know that got snipped were also because of religious reasons. I know its a 'catholic' thing to do (being irish\catholic)...what about the Jewish barmitzsfa? (sp?)...hmmm snippy snippy in front of the world..real cool...lol..

A boy has his barmitzvah when he's 13! I should hope they don't wait that long to do it! The ceremony you're thinking of is the brisque (sp?).

[ken2a]

"Circumcision makes women cleaner, promotes virginity and chastity and guards young girls from sexual frustration by deadening their sexual appetite." Mrs. Njeri, a defender of female genital mutilation in Kenya.

"Of course I shall have them circumcised exactly as their parents, grandparents and sisters were circumcised. This is our custom." An Egyptian woman, talking about her young daughters.

References:

"Doctor and Supermodel Debate Female Circumcision"

http://www.pitt.edu/~cdhst16/waris.html

Female Circumcision Defended

http://www.africa2000.com/RNDX/femcirc2.html

"Is There A Difference?"

http://www.members.home.net/pshano/circumcision.html

Criminal Assault?

http://www.cirp.org/library/legal/boyle1/

Male Infant C. is "Torture"

http://www.intactcanada.org/newsrel.htm

"Where Sex and Violence First Meet"

http://www.birthpsychology.com/violence/baker.html

"No Trivial Matter"

http://www.calgaryherald.com/opinion/stories/010306/5049503.html

Hanny Lightfoot-Klein

http://www.nocirc.org/symposia/third/hanny3.html

The Journal of Social History (1994)

http://www.cirp.org/library/history/gollaher/

FGM data page

http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/femgen/fgm1.htm

A Violation of Basic Human Rights

http://www.icgi.org/Downloads/Humanist.pdf

"The Profoundly Disturbing and Explosive Facts."

http://www.math.missouri.edu/~rich/MGMprimer.html

Article by Paul Fleiss, MD (Mothering magazine,

Winter, 1997)

http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/fleiss.html

"The Lost List" http://www.norm-socal.org/docs/

The Ridged Band http://research.cirp.org

Involuntary Circumcision: The Legal Issues

http://www.cirp.org/library/legal/vanhowe5

Please visit: http://www.SexAsNatureIntendedIt.com. Sex As Nature Intended It: The Most Important Thing You Need to Know About *Making Love* But Nobody Could Tell You Until Now. The outstanding new book by Kristen O'Hara. Afterword by George C. Denniston, MD, President of D.O.C. (Doctors Opposing Circumcision). The Web address for D.O.C. is --http://faculty.washington.edu/gcd/DOC

Thank You.

One Woman's View:

"If I talk to women about circumcision and they don't seem to get it, then I make it personal. Sometimes I tell a story. (This probably works best woman to woman.) I'll tell them to: -

Imagine that you are admitted to a hospital for some minor surgery. On waking up from the anesthesia, you realize that your inner labia and the hood over your clitoris have been cut off.

When you confront your doctor, he explains that the tissue that was removed was "redundant" and not necessary for sexual functioning.

He goes on to say that you will be much easier to clean and have less odor, there will be less chance of infection, and he felt that you would look "better", more aesthetic.

He says that when he told all of the "risks" and "benefits" to your family, they gave informed consent for the procedure.

How would you feel?

Now imagine that you were awake and resisting, but they did it anyway.

If they don't get it right away, they usually will later, when they are alone.

- Susan Peer

Parents of Intact Sons

[gambitrah]

Originally posted by tastyt

A boy has his barmitzvah when he's 13! I should hope they don't wait that long to do it! The ceremony you're thinking of is the brisque (sp?).

oops my bad. Not being Jewish i was pretty lost there. Sorry for the lack of jewish-oriented-heritage-knowlege

:rolleyes:

[flying_high]

Originally posted by gambitrah

FWIW: most of the guys i know that got snipped were also because of religious reasons. I know its a 'catholic' thing to do (being irish\catholic)...what about the Jewish barmitzsfa? (sp?)...hmmm snippy snippy in front of the world..real cool...lol..

Are you really sure about that (being circumsized is a catholic thing to do)???? If that holds true I wonder why no-one in Europe (and I believe they do have a lot of catholics there) is circumsized (or at least not that many people). Somehow that's the first time I hear about it and it really confuses me now. Damn ...this whole circumsized vs. unc. issue freaks me out totally. I just don't understand why people can't accept humans as they are meant to be. Everything on our bodies is there for a reason and has its purpose

[tastyt]

I see the point you're trying to make (and no I didn't visit all those links!) but you really can't compare male vs female circumcision. A circumsized male can still lead a *very* fulfiling sex life whereas with a circumsized female, except for the rare exception that proves the rule, that is not the case.

[tastyt]

Originally posted by gambitrah

oops my bad. Not being Jewish i was pretty lost there. Sorry for the lack of jewish-oriented-heritage-knowlege

:rolleyes:

I had to laugh when I imagined that happening at any of the Bar Mitzvahs I attended...

Well to be honest, I laughed... then cringed... :shake: :shake:

[gambitrah]

Originally posted by flying_high

Are you really sure about that (being circumsized is a catholic thing to do)???? If that holds true I wonder why no-one in Europe (and I believe they do have a lot of catholics there) is circumsized (or at least not that many people). Somehow that's the first time I hear about it and it really confuses me now. Damn ...this whole circumsized vs. unc. issue freaks me out totally. I just don't understand why people can't accept humans as they are meant to be. Everything on our bodies is there for a reason and has its purpose

well...i asked a good friend of the family (one of those god fearing bible reading verse quoting type) and he was under the impression it was. I dunno now im confused...i know i will do it to my son (if i ever have one). For whatever thats worth...

-gam-

[flying_high]

Originally posted by gambitrah

well...i asked a good friend of the family (one of those god fearing bible reading verse quoting type) and he was under the impression it was. I dunno now im confused...i know i will do it to my son (if i ever have one). For whatever thats worth...

-gam-

Thanks for clearing it a bit sweetie. I rather think though that it's an American thing to do and has nothing to do with the religious origins (catholic that is). I still don't quite understand why you would put your son through this though but I think I'll just quit the discussion here as I realize that I'm just too different to most people on this board and/or that country. I've listened to so many different people, heard their arguments (and don't understand them) and decided now to just put it behind me as something I can't and I won't agree to. I don't understand the reasoning....oh well, I guess that's just something you really call "cultural difference"

[ken2a]

"I see the point you're trying to make ... but you can't compare male vs female circumcision."

Please visit:

http://www.fgmnetwork.org/intro/mgmfgm.html

"Circumcised male can still lead a *very* fulfilling sex life ..."

Functional and Erotic Consequences of Male Genital Mutilation:

"When normal, sexually functioning tissue is removed, sexual functioning is also altered. Changes of the penis that occur with circumcision have been documented. These may vary according to the procedure used and the age at which the circumcision was performed, nevertheless penile changes will inevitably occur following circumcision.

Circumcision performed in the newborn period traumatically interrupts the natural separation of the foreskin from the glans that normally occurs somewhere between birth and age 18. The raw, exposed glans penis heals in a process that measurably thickens the surface of the glans and results in desensitization of the head of the penis.

When circumcision is performed after the normal separation of the foreskin from the glans, the damage done by forcible separation of these two parts of the penis is avoided, but the glans must still thicken in order to protect itself from constant chafing and abrasion by clothing.

The thickened, drier tissue covering the glans of the circumcised penis may necessitate the use of synthetic lubricants to facilitate nontraumatic sexual intercourse. Often, it is erroneously considered the woman's lack of lubrication that makes intercourse painful rather than the lack of natural male lubrication, which is more likely the cause. During masturbation, the circumcised male must use his hands for direct stimulation of the glans, and this may require synthetic lubrication as well.

In addition to the predictable physical changes that occur with circumcision, there are inherent risks and potential complications from the surgery. These include, but are not limited to, hemorrhage, infection, surgical damage and, while rare, death. Surgical damage and healing complications can result in extensive scarring, skin bridging, curvature of the penis, and deformities of the glans penis and urethral meatus (urinary opening). Extreme mutilations have resulted from inappropriate electrocautery use in circumcision, causing loss of the entire penis. Sex­change operations have been used as a "remedy'' for this iatrogenic condition." For a complete version of this article, please visit: http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/milos-macris2/

Interview with Dr. John Taylor, Pathologist*

http://www.intactcanada.org/taylor.html

*According to Dr. Taylor, the male "foreskin" is the embryological equivalent of the labia minora and the clitoral hood.

Photos of Normal Intact Men

http://www.circumstitions.com/Restric/Gallery1.html

How The Foreskin Works (Moving Graphics)

http://www.circumstitions.com/Works.html

What Is Lost? The Lost List

http://www.norm-socal.org/lost.html

MGM Destroys Roughly Fifteen (15) Square Inches of Highly Erogenous Genital Tissue

http://www.noharmm.org/snip.htm

http://www.circumstitions.com/Notjustaflap.html

Every Mutilation is "botched," although some are more "botched" than others

http://www.circumstitions.com/Botched1.html

Also Visit:

http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/

"How to Identify Damage"

http://www.noharmm.org/IDcirc.htm

Historical Medical Quotes

http://www.circumcisionquotes.com

Dr. Jay Gordon

http://drjaygordon.com/links/circ.htm

Circumcision Is Mutilation

http://www.webmagician.com/pubservice/index.shtml

"The Profoundly Disturbing and Explosive Facts"

http://www.math.missouri.edu/~rich/MGMprimer.html

Doctors Opposing Circumcision

http://faculty.washington.edu/gcd/DOC

Eileen M. Wayne, MD

http://www.informedconsent.org/circumcision.html

[tastyt]

I am sorry but there is no way to compare a baby boy having a doctor removing his foreskin to a woman getting her clitoris, labia, what have you, removed! Especially considering it's usually done to teenage girls, not babies- maybe it hurts the baby but at least he isn't going to remember: having his family standing around, holding him down, and using a rusty razor or the top from a tin can to do the job! There is no comparing the two!

And don't even try and give me that bs about circumsicion destroying a man's sex life. Sorry, but I'm sure that every cut man on this board can attest to the sexual pleasure he experiences. And as a woman I can say that a cut man is *still* more likely to get off before an uncut woman....

You're entitled to your own opinion, but the two procedures are not even in the same league and frankly I find it highly offensive to even compare the two.

[clubbingirl]

wow, lemme tell ya, this has been quite enjoyable to read.

[ken2a]

"I am sorry but there is no way to compare a baby boy having a doctor removing his foreskin to a woman getting her clitoris, labia, what have you, removed!"

I suppose that it's a matter of gender bias, combined with a lack of knowledge. Did you not read the articles? The "foreskin" is the equivalent of the labia minora and the clitoral hood. It contains a heavy concentration of nerves, nerve endings and blood vessels, etc.

references:

Video of an infant undergoing the partial amputation of his penis

http://www.intactcanada.org

Infant Male C. Is "Torture"

http://www.intactcanada.org/newsrel.htm

Interview with Dr. John Taylor, Pathologist

http://www.intactcanada.org/taylor.html

Photos of normal intact men -- http://www.circumstitions.com/Restric/Gallery1.html

"15 square inches"

http://www.noharmm.org/snip.htm

http://www.circumstitions.com/Notjustaflap.html

"How the Foreskin Works"

http://www.circumstitions.com/Works.html

"What Is Lost? The Lost List"

http://www.norm-socal.org/lost.html

"Especially considering it's usually done to teenage girls ..."

The supermodel in the interview was "circumcised" at the age of 5. In Muslim cultures, male children are mutilated during childhood and not during infancy. It would be helpful if you'd read the information that was posted.

"... not babies- maybe it hurts the baby but at least he isn't going to remember ..."

What difference does it make? The victim has a constant reminder that will follow him to his grave. It's unlikely that infant females could remember losing their labias, but that's not an argument for mutilating the sexual organs of infant females, is it?

"... having his family standing around, holding him down, and using a rusty razor or the top from a tin can to do the job! There is no comparing the two!"

In Africa, male children are sexually mutilated with the same primitive implements. Would it be acceptable to mutilate females in state-of-the-art hospitals? Of course not. Genital mutilation has life-long consequences, regardless of the gender of the victim. Hospitals are in the business of healing, and they have no business being involved in tribal blood rituals.

"And don't even try and give me that bs about circumsicion destroying a man's sex life."

It doesn't destroy a man's sex life right away. The process is gradual. It happens over time and gets worse over time.

"Sorry, but I'm sure that every cut man on this board can attest to the sexual pleasure he experiences."

They'd experience *much greater* levels of pleasure if they were intact. They're missing the best part of their genitals. Someone reached into their crotches during tender infancy and destroyed something that nature intended for them to have. And they may not be aware of the damage until they reach the age of 35 or thereabouts. And they have no point of reference, just as a blind person has no point of reference.

"And as a woman I can say that a cut man is *still* more likely to get off before an uncut woman.... "

That sounds like "premature ejaculation." Please read the book "Sex As Nature Intended It." http://www.SexAsNatureIntendedIt.com.

There's more to sex than "getting off." Americans don't know about normal sex for the most part, given the climate of taboo that prevails here. Kristen O'Hara's book is must-reading.

There's a big difference between a normal intact penis and one that's been mutilated. You're speaking as someone who lives in a climate of sexual mutilation.

"You're entitled to your own opinion, but the two procedures are not even in the same league ..."

My opinion is based on the facts of biology. What is yours based on? Ken.

Please visit: http://www.SexAsNatureIntendedIt.com. Sex As Nature Intended It: The Most Important thing You Need to Know About *Making Love* But Nobody Could Tell You Until Now. The outstanding new book by Kristen O'Hara. Afterword by George C. Denniston, MD, President of D.O.C. (Doctors Opposing Circumcision). The D.O.C. web-site is: http://faculty.washington.edu/gcd/DOC

[tastyt]

If I ever had a son, no, I would not have him circumsized. And I don't know how many penises you've experienced, but I'm willing to bet I've had more (unless you're gay, but just by law of averages I'm banking you're not). I know a circumsized penis is not as sensitive. But if you say it's *not sensitive,*, period, you're full of it.

It's undoubtedly wrong if a child, teenager, adult, whatever is forcibly circumsized with improper and barbaric tools. However I will reiterate that when a baby boy is circumsized under sanitary conditions he will almost certainly still be able to have satisfying, *intense*, pleasurable sex. A woman, regardless of the conditions under which it happens WILL NOT! EVER! In fact she will most likely find intercourse very painful.

And no I wasn't referring to premature ejaculation, and yes I understand that the sole purpose of sex should not be to orgasm.

[ken2a]

"It's undoubtedly wrong if a child, teenager, adult, whatever is forcibly circumsized with improper and barbaric tools."

Would it be OK to poke out a child's healthy eyeballs in a sterile hospital environment? Would it be OK to amputate a little girl's healthy clitoris in a sterile hospital environment? This is about human rights for children. Involuntary genital mutilation is crude and barbaric even when performed in a sterile hospital environment.

"However I will reiterate that when a baby boy is circumsized under sanitary conditions he will almost certainly still be able to have satisfying, *intense*,pleasurable sex."

Absolutely not true. A prepucectomized man will *never* know what it's like to have "satisfying, intense, pleasurable sex." This option is forever out of his reach. All he knows -- all he'll ever know -- is mediocre sex and abrasive, dysfunctional sex. His mutilated penis doesn't send the right messages to his brain. Remember, he's missing thousands of nerve endings and hundreds of nerves. http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/fleiss.html (Mothering magazine, Winter, 1997).

"... woman, regardless of the conditions under which it happens WILL NOT! EVER!"

That's not true. Circumcised women can enjoy sex. Hanny Lightfoot-Klein says so in "Prisoner's or Ritual," and she's one of the world's foremost experts on the subject. I've provided links to Hanny's web page. Did you check it out?

"In fact she will most likely find intercourse very painful."

You have no business speaking for "circumcised" males OR "circumcised" females, unless you're a victim yourself. Ken.

[tastyt]

I give up- I have neither the time nor the inclination to read all 30+ articles you have linked; nor is my interest in the subject so great that I plan on searching for articles to support my case. All I know is, if ever decide to become a mother someday, my boys aren't getting cut; in the meantime I'll while away the time pleasuring and receiving pleasure from my circumsized boyfriend.

[ken2a]

Female Circumcision Defended

http://www.africa2000.com/RNDX/femcirc2.html

Doctor and Supermodel Debate Female Circumcision

http://www.pitt.edu/~cdhst16/waris.html

[ken2a]

http://web.wichitaeagle.com/content/wichitaeagle/2001/07/24/frontpage/0724online2.htm

The Wichita Eagle

Wednesday, July 25, 2001

Agreement reached in circumcision case

A settlement between an 18-day-old baby's parents, whose disagreement over whether to circumcise their son almost ended up in court, was reached today, the boy's father said.

It includes a provision that the baby, Asher Nathaniel Grisham, will not be circumcised, Rodney Grisham said.

"I wouldn't agree to anything less," he said. "Nobody is doing that to my son."

The dispute between Rodney and Sheila Grisham, who are in the process of divorcing, began before the baby was born.

Rodney Grisham, 25, said circumcision amounts to sexual assault. Sheila Grisham, 21, argued not doing it was against her religious beliefs.

Rodney Grisham went so far as to file a protection from abuse order at the Sedgwick County courthouse in the name of his son to stop the procedure.

[ken2a]

Attorneys for the Rights of the Child

2961 Ashby Avenue, Berkeley, CA 94705

Fax/phone 510-595-5550 Email arc@post.harvard.edu

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: August 15, 2001

CONTACT: J. Steven Svoboda, Esq., 1-510-595-5550

Attention: Health Editor

United Nations Criticized for Sex Discrimination Against Males

GENEVA, SWITZERLAND-The United Nations and its Sub-Commission on the

Promotion and Protection of Human Rights were sharply criticized yesterday

by two human rights organizations for discrimination against males in the

enforcement of human rights. Speaking on behalf of the National Organization

of Circumcision Information Resource Centers and Attorneys for the Rights of

the Child, J. Steven Svoboda, Esq., a Harvard-educated human rights lawyer,

noted that while a panoply of protections for women and girls has been

instituted including aggressive programs to stop female genital mutilation

(FGM), male circumcision has never even been studied by any United Nations

body including the Sub-Commission.

Svoboda demanded that the Sub-Commission explain why Sub-Commissioner Mrs.

Halima Embarek Warzazi, previously its Special Rapporteur on Traditional

Practices Affecting Women and Children, was now barred from considering

traditional practices' effects on male children.

Svoboda commented that everywhere that FGM occurs, male circumcision also

takes place, adding that male circumcision occurs six times for every time

FGM occurs. "Some day," Svoboda told the United Nations, "we will come to

understand the misguided nature of our attempts to explain why any violation

of female genitals is criminal while a comparable, serious, extremely

painful, and disfiguring alteration of male genitals is permissible. The

best way to do justice to the rights of the child is to do no harm, to let

it enjoy life in every aspect and to protect it and to love it. When the

child is of the age of consent, he or she can make up his or her own mind

about his or her own body. "

Svoboda called the United Nations' attention to the fact that the Parliament

of Sweden recently voted decisively, 249 to 10, in favor of new legislation

which regulates male circumcision and in its preliminaries also ordered a

study to determine what effect the new law will have and whether male

circumcision should be considered a human rights violation. Many Swedish

Members of Parliament stated that male circumcision violates children's

rights.

Svoboda commented that human rights professor Jacqueline Smith of the

Netherlands Institute of Human Rights has also emphasized the importance of

protecting males as well as females from circumcision. Svoboda also called

the Sub-Commission's attention to the fact that Ms. Gay J. McDougall, its

own expert on systematic rape and sexual slavery, stressed that human rights

must protect both males and females from all forms of sexual assault.

Svoboda called the Sub-Commission's attention to the disfigured genitals and

deaths which are regularly caused by male circumcision wherever it is

practiced, in the United States, in the developing world, or elsewhere. He

recounted the story of David Reimer, whose penis was entirely burned off, as

has since been documented on television and in a best-selling book. Reimer

was raised and surgically "reassigned" as a girl but his life and the lives

of everyone in his family were catastrophically altered. Svoboda quoted an

August 1 article in the New York Times reporting that 35 boys have already

died this year in South Africa alone from circumcisions. Ten percent or more

of initiates have been left with no penis or a "disfigured stump."

Svoboda testified that every single national medical association that has

examined the issue has failed to find medical benefits which can justify

routine removal of healthy tissue from a non-consenting infant. Regarding

religion, Svoboda stated that for boys and girls alike, under basic human

rights principles, another's right to practice a religion must end where

that individual's body begins.

###

[nightgroover]

Originally posted by smyligerl

If you want to talk about pain, listen to the quest of the chicks in the middle east and africa who have their clits ritualistically cut off (no pain killers)as soon as they have their first periods. A lot of them have such heavy scar tissue that sex is painful for the rest of their lives AND many die in childbirth because the opening doesn't stretch anymore. Sorry about the rant, I just thought I'd throw that in...

Did anyone here say that it is wright to circumcise women. I personally think people who do that should be tortured and hung somewhere. But still it dpoes not diminish the pain of getting your foreskin removed.

[nomembername]

here ya go primetime

[NOT IN USE]

Well, I've only been with guys that have been circumsized (sp?)

so since thats what I'm used to I guess uncircusized would be wierd to me??

I don't know..

romy20

------------------

ARE YOU FEELING IT?

_________________________

clubchick20@hotmail.com

Aim: Romina321

what up girl?

[ken2a]

http://www.cirp.org/library/procedure/gomco/

PATIENT CARE, Volume 12, pp. 82-85, March 15, 1978.

[fkornre]

what up girl?

u do know that this was posted 05-22-2001, 10:18 PM