Suicide blast in Jerusalem kills 1 Israeli, injures 110

[breakbeatz2]

Originally posted by breaksny

Ya but look. My Dad's from Lithuania. He basically hates Russians b/c of the 100s of years of their occupation of his homeland. Well he used to feel that way anyway. So what if you're Jewish, Muslim, or whatever else...what does it matter? I guess I'd put the question to people who don't agree or understand the mainstream (moderate) Palestinian argument this way (and keep in mind it's obviously just a hypothetical question). If the PA accepted a state in the territories in exchange for peaceful coexistence with Israel, would you support the complete removal of any Israeli military presence in East Jerusalem (since the vast majority of Israeli Jews in Jerusalem live in the Western section of the city anyway) and the territories? And let's say the temple mount (Haram al Sharif) is either put under joint, international, or divine sovereignty as a compromise on maybe the single most contentious issue in any proposed settlement. Obviously another provision in such a settlement would be the crushing of Palestinian militant attacks on Israeli soil as well. Would you find such a settlement reasonable in exchange for peaceful coexistence? That obviously goes farther than what Barak has offered. But it leaves Israel in control of 78% of its historical homeland, and continued access to the most important portion of its holiest city as well. That's what I understand to be the mainstream, moderate Palestinian position on what they want in exchange for peace. I'm not denying there are many radical groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the PFLP, the DFLP, and others that do want to see Israel's destruction. As well probably as some dissident factions of the PLO. But these are still (after all this carnage) a minority among Palestinian society). This seems to me the best way out of the conflict. I don't see it happening anytime soon for a whole host of reasons I'm sure the rest of you will be happy to elaborate upon. I just don't see any other way out. The violence will probably continue, if not worsen unless steps are taken in that direction. Seizing the territories, for example, would create a far worse situation than now, and would probably seriously hurt Israel's relations with America (as well as nations with which it has friendly diplomatic relations at present, i.e. the EU, Jordan, and Egypt). Not to mention the more important point that it would be occupying a people who would then be completely hostile in their attitudes toward their occupier. And expulsion of the Palestinian population, that's basically another word for what Milosevic did in Croatia, Kosovo, and Bosnia in the 90s. And you all know where he is now.

the territories MUST be occupied because that is the ONLY way to control the terrorists that reside there. Israel police and mossad must have access to these people so they can keep an eye on terrorist activity.

all the land that Israel has was won in WARS which the Arab lands instigated. then they LOST. you know what the word LOST means?? you know what the phrase SPOILS OF WAR means??

damn it, they attacked, they got fucked, so they better say bye bye to the land they lost. end of story. i think Israel has been generous enough in giving land. time to take a stand and kick some Arab ass as in the past!

[cintron]

take a lesson from the puertoricans:

dont stay in the sun too much, swim a little, dance a lot, and you'll have a place that everybody wants to go to.

oh and stop shooting people. we might have beef with hatians, dominicans and cubans but we live among em, not kill em everyday.

so everybody have some paella and cook a pig

crack open some malt liquor and go dance by the fire for a while.

the world needs to lighten the fuck up

[Xpander]

Originally posted by breakbeatz2

palestinians are killed in retaliation

the disspraportionate number of blacks in jail is a result of the messed up socio-economic problem created by the mergence of urban ghettos which are predominantly black neighborhoods. blacks often reside in high crime areas, and thus there is an endless cycle of poverty which leads to crime and so on. this is a completely different problem which i believe warrants a great deal of attention, but has very little relevence to the middle east problem.

the palestinians are a separate people, united in their hatred against Israel. i am sure that there are palestinians who are kind generous, peace-loving, and understanding. (although they would probably be killed by bastard terrorists for treason) however, the mindset of the ruling body, and of the majority of the people that are visible through demonstrations, is that violence is the answer and terrorist is the way. the few that dont think so are not heard. they are like the minority of imbeciles int he US that preach hate and racism. they are not heard because we denounce that in the US. peace is denounced by the majority of Palestinians.

you are naive in that you think that this world can be a peaceful and loving place where doves fly through the white clouds under the shining sun. reality check buddy, go into a certain neighborhood, and you'll get your ass kicked and your stuff robbed. go into a palestininan village as a Jew and you'll get your head cut off. that is the reality. if there is one palestinian sitting in his hut who doesnt think that what his brothers are doing to the poor old Jewish man outside, it doesnt matter much, because he is staying quiet.

peace-wanting palestinians are staying quiet and not speaking out against their terrorist kinsmen. thus, they are no better than those who are terrorists. until i see a movement in the palestinian people against this terrorism, i will judge the whole people as racist and ignorant and as TERRORISTS.

i'm sorry but i havent heard one Palestinian official speak of peace. all i hear, even from Arafat himself, is "i will die for my cause," i think Israel will be happy to oblige

Yeah, yeah, because I saw it on TV, Palestinians all deserves to die. And those who don't, didn't stop those who do and so they deserve to die too.

Whatever.

[Xpander]

Originally posted by cintron

take a lesson from the puertoricans:

dont stay in the sun too much, swim a little, dance a lot, and you'll have a place that everybody wants to go to.

oh and stop shooting people. we might have beef with hatians, dominicans and cubans but we live among em, not kill em everyday.

so everybody have some paella and cook a pig

crack open some malt liquor and go dance by the fire for a while.

the world needs to lighten the fuck up

Yo, I'd go for some Paella...

[breakbeatz2]

if my friend is a racist, and i satnd by him and not speak out when he is talking shit about someone, than i am no better than he.

show me a Palestinian who peaks out and i will change my mind. until then, the words of Meir Kahane sound in my ears

[breaksny]

First of all ya I'm an idealist I admit it. If what you were saying was always true however, the Germans and French (among hundreds of other conflicts around the world) would still be @ war. As would Serbia and the rest of the Balkans. Likewise, Israel wouldn't have peace agreements with Jordan and Egypt. Remember those? You think those people should be killed too? War won't solve the problem dude cuz this is a war you cannot win. No amount of force will get it done. And frankly, the racism some of you espouse on this board is disturbing, to put it mildly. You didn't really refute any of my arguments either.

The argument that all Arabs hate Jews is bs too. the Palestinians hate what's being done to them. And I'm just pointing out the fact that the best offer Israel could muster wasn't sufficient to make for a viable Palestine, which is the only solution to the problem. If historical relics like those you're exemplifying won't get out of the way, you'll be swept aside by those who wanna make peace. And as I said, you're basically condoning appartheid if you oppose the existence of Palestine. Care to justify that from a moral standpoint?

[breaksny]

I should also add that by saying occupation is the only solution, you're proving my point. You're simply fuelling the violence. And also proving that the goverment (and right now that effectively includes Labor and Likud) doesn't want peace. It and the Israeli people want colonialism. Obviously not all of them, but the pacifist movement has been pretty effectively sidelined, as it has in the Palestine. It's not even Israeli land under the Oslo Accords. That's the biggest thing I don't get...Israel's proving that it never wanted nor ever intended to make peace with the Palestinian people or their democratically elected leadership. Besides being imperialist and racist, it's also effectively marshall law. Not something conducive to democratization. It's especially ironic to me given the fact of that the holocaust was one of the main reasons Israel was created. 6 million Jews killed in the worst genocide in the 20th century, and their own state can't make peace with the indigineous population in the land they call home. There's no justice in that.

And to answer your question about showing you a Palestinian who wants peace, I will. Hanan Ashrawi's daughter went to my high school (a Quaker high school). And they're pacificists. She has been on American, British, and probably numerous other Western, Arab, and other nations' talk shows supporting a just peace for over a decade now. The mainstream leadership of the Fatah faction of the PA wants peace, led by Arafat. But you have to get it through your thick skull what the concept of a just peace is. Imperialism is not it...it will make things worse. Any sensible moderate will tell you that. Did the Kosovars stop fighting Serbia after they were ethnically cleansed? No. Did my ancestors in Lithuania stop fighting Russian occupation? No. The Palestinians won't either...there's nothing Israel can do to stop the violence except to make peace. It's the only solution. And to get that war criminal out of office. He's an outrage and frankly should be put on trial for crimes against humanity.

[breakbeatz2]

bro you are as off as off can be

apartheid?? are you nuts???

occupation is necessary until palestinians realize that terrorism is not the way. until the terrorist activities ceize, palestine is occupied and every palestinian is a suspect. bottom line

they have their borthers who like to blow people up to thank for that.

and what is being one to them? they were racist bastards when Jews first started moving back into the land, and they are still racist bastards. only thing is, the Jews proved themselves smarter and more productive, made some smart alliances, and kicked some ass. now, these palestinians are crying for the lands which they abandoned in the 1940's? what the hell were those idiots thinking back then?? they left, and now live with it.

what rights to palestinians have on lands that they left and that Jews settled on? NONE!!!

and as for lands that are palestinian now and are occupied by Israeli military, well, when the terrorist actions ceize, i dont think there will be a reason to keep them occupied.

bottom line: when there are no more terrorists, there will be no more reason to occupy any lands on which Jews do not live. until then, Palestinians are digging a grave for themselves and their future

[mysterynyc]

in addition to breakbeatz2 comments:

Palestinians tried to settle in Jordan..specifically this area dubbed

Trans-Jordan. THEIR ARAB-MUSLIM BROTHERS KICKED THEIR ASSES OUT OF JORDAN.and declared Trans-Jordan solely part of Jordan again.they didn't want to house them. They considered them savages. This is because Palestinians are the gypsies of the Arab world.Ethnically, they are a mixture of Syrians, Egyptians, and Jordanians,and a couple of other things.

Jews are Jews. thats it. There Ashkenazi, Sabra, thats just tribes. Our blood is all the same.

[mysterynyc]

and by the way...Arafat..the great Palestinian leader ...is EGYPTIAN...Cairo born and raised.

[breaksny]

LOL U think there'd be no reason? You obviously don't have much concept of the disproportionate political influence the Israeli far right and the settler movement has in Israeli politics, especially in this centre right government. Do you have any idea just how right wing Sharon is anyway, let alone Netanyahu? Sure I'm TECHNICALLY wrong in calling it a center right govt since it's actually a national unity government, but the scary thing now is now Peres (Mr. former Nobel laureatte) is effectively condoning this barabarism by staying in the government. As is the Party's leader (forgot his name). The Parliamentary Speaker Avraham Burg is the most high ranking moderate I'm aware of in the Israeli government at this time.

In terms of calling the occupation appartheid. My argument (which is basically the Palestinian/Israeli left's argument) already demonstrated how that's appartheid. The territories are littered with Settler communities, protected by Israeli military and police presences (in the case of Hebron before the intifada by a setller commuinity of a few hundred was protected by an Israeli security presence in a city of 100,000 Palestinians). The settlements continue to be built (at a faster rate under Sharon than Barak or Netanyahu when they were in office). Many Palestinian city's are effectively blockaded from the outside world, making the prospect of the average person trying to make a living impossible. The security cooridors and roads I mentioned before are already in place, and likewise divide Palestinian territory into piece (bantustans). That is the same as South Africa under Apartheid. You can't justify that unless you really justify economic, political, and social racism.

On your issue of the violence, I already told you the reason it continues is because of the occupation. That's why. Israel is not acting simply in response...it wants now to destroy the Palestinian government, why else destroy their security offices when they're demanding the PA crack down on militants? Why else imprison Palestinian mayors (their own elected president as well) in their homes? They don't want peace. They live in a fantasy land of thinking they can defeat a war of independence. They can't and they won't. Obviously you've never been occupied, so you don't understand that.

What rights do they have to what land? The Israelis drove them out. And I'm not even discussing Israel proper...do you understand that distinction? I'm only discussing the territories...those lands are Palestinian land under the Oslo accords (remember those?). Or were you asleep the day Rabin and Arafat signed that agreement?

Bottom line (as you like to say): Sharon will fail. He won't be in office that much longer anyway. And I hope for Israel's sake it learns eventually that this man and those like him have no vision, no concept of where to go after this concept. From a strategic standpoint, Sharon has no idea of what the end game is...and this cycle will continue. Remember Sharon's the one who put Israel in Lebanon back in the early 80s...it figures he's the one who puts his country into another war it cannot win. The violence stops when the occupation ends, or at least some steps in that direction.

[mysterynyc]

what gov't? what Palestinian gov't? :laugh:

They don't have an existing govt. If PLO is what your talking about...you can equate them to Hamas, the terrorist group.

[mysterynyc]

George Carlin might be a comedian...but he's so right when he says that we ARE a fading republic, 'cause of people who side with the Palestinians or who just are the against the Israelis.

[sonicinfusion]

Im not gonna get into this convo ...

even thou i am a MUSLIM and can give zillions of reason why the Palestinian ppl do suicide bombing ( which is wrong but in a way they dont have any option)

other reason why would the HAMAS listen to ARAFAT to stop the bombing cause SHARON said it .. its a war goin on since 50 years or more .. and by discussing it on the board will creat dislike among us .. we are here for the music .. lets just stick to that !!

i love peace

the way the world is goin right now !! the dooms day is close !!

[breaksny]

More racist contempt. Jeeze some of you need to read the news a bit more carefully. Sonic, I see your point, but I don't think it matters really. If we all agree not to talk about this sort of thing here or if the moderators start closing or deleting non music threads on these boards, fine I'm willing to stop. But as long as it continues, I don't see the problem with an open discussion as long as everyone's allowed to get his or her 2 cents in. There's already plenty of arguments on the boards here and elsewhere about music, this is just a different (albeit much more serious) subject.

[kkeot]

What the heck are you guys arguing like 40 messages back and forth about this crap. I mean HELLO!! we don't live in isreal, palestine anywhere near the middle east or any of that crap. Who cares? I don't know we're bothering to send these envious in the first place. Let the israelies and palestinians solve thier own problems. We got enough to worry about with this war on terrorism. As far as I'm concerned all the middle east is a source of cheap oil. Anything esle is just causing us problems. I don't even know why we bother giving so much aid to israel they never seem to help us out in any of our overseas missions that's for sure. HEll we've gotten more help from pakistan on the war on terror then we ever got from Israel. as far aas I'm concerned we should cut aid to israel by half or so , ignore this stupid situation and let them deal with it themselves and just support regimes that actually have some oil. Seems we watse allot of time worrying about what's happening in Israel instead of what's happening to our own citizens. Israel, palestine WHATEVER they should take care of themseleves, instead of waiting for the US to bail them out of every problem. We should stop wasting money over there and just spend it on the war on terror...

[mysterynyc]

Originally posted by kkeot

What the heck are you guys arguing like 40 messages back and forth about this crap. I mean HELLO!! we don't live in isreal, palestine anywhere near the middle east or any of that crap. Who cares? I don't know we're bothering to send these envious in the first place. Let the israelies and palestinians solve thier own problems. We got enough to worry about with this war on terrorism. As far as I'm concerned all the middle east is a source of cheap oil. Anything esle is just causing us problems. I don't even know why we bother giving so much aid to israel they never seem to help us out in any of our overseas missions that's for sure. HEll we've gotten more help from pakistan on the war on terror then we ever got from Israel. as far aas I'm concerned we should cut aid to israel by half or so , ignore this stupid situation and let them deal with it themselves and just support regimes that actually have some oil. Seems we watse allot of time worrying about what's happening in Israel instead of what's happening to our own citizens. Israel, palestine WHATEVER they should take care of themseleves, instead of waiting for the US to bail them out of every problem. We should stop wasting money over there and just spend it on the war on terror...

this is the exact ego-centric mentality that got our asses bombed in the first place.

[kkeot]

We got bombed because a bunch of crazed fanatics were trying wanted to hurt the US,

and if that's what you're so concerned about, all I want to know is how is Israel

helping us win the war on terorism. I mean they/'re not putting any troops into afghanistan

that's for sure, they're costing us money, not getting us any oil and making our

arab allies nervous. I just don't think it's worth the agravation. Let them solve their

own problems. THey seem to do nothing, but cause us more trouble. I mean why should it be our

problem if they can't control their own populations? As far as I'm concerned

that's nothing more than a dirty little civil war and I don't know why we bother backing

one side against the other. They're all a bunhch of idiots....

Look man the truth of it is israel and truthfully most of the middle east in general

is a little backwater...Except for the oil their it's barely worth our time.

ISrael causes more trouble than it's worth and we should drop it like a hot potatoe.

IN my mind their barely a democracy, and they dicriminate against their own people

by keeping them in little ghetto's and not letting them vote it's idiocy and they wonder

why the country is so unstable.??? I really just don't see what israel or the palestinians

do for us at all.

[tribal]

there are 3 types of people who think they are right about this issue

type 1: the ones that are pro israeli and see the majority of palst as terrorists

type 2: the ones that are more left leaning and critisize israel for its policies, thereby dismissing palst terror acts as a byproduct of israeli actions.

type 3: the ones that just dont give a shit, the ones that know least about the situation

you are all wrong

for type 1, consider the fact that since 1967, israel maintained control of palst areas (the areas officially recongized by the entire world, UN Charter 147), by using military/economic/subversive measures, measures that many times were excessive and constitued crimes (sabra, shatila). adding to that, the Likud govt has routinely let messianic jewish settlers move into clear palst areas in order to build settlements, all in clear violation of international law.

for type 2, consider the fact that the Palst, are refugees from the 1948 war, a war started not by israel, but by its neighbors. consider the fact that the palst had in their national charter, explicit declaration to destroy israel, a declaration that was unwillfully revoked in 1993 due to the Oslo agreement.

consider the fact that Arafat is a recognized terrorist, directly and indirectly responsible for hundreds of israeli deaths, most recenlty with the Karine A fiasco, a palst boat that was transporting tons of deadly weapons for palst terror groups, all under control of arafat. consider the fact that palst media incites its citizens daily, by calling on young teenage 'martyrs' to drop their books, pick up rocks and attack israelis. by the way, the notion that palst only have rocks and hand guns is false. many are armed with molotv cocktails, ak-47, qassam 2 medium range missiles, mortars and anti tank weapons. adding to that the PA has close to 40 APCs and heavy anti armor weaponry. a great intelligence news site www.debka.com provides more information. oh and the daily suicide attacks dont help either.

for type 3: everything effects us, whether its as close as in south jersey, or as far as Be'er Sheba or Talin, ignorance is a pretty dangerous policy.

[cintron]

i'll be part of group 3, and happily so when i say

I dont give a shit

fuck em.

their problems are their problems, just like ours are ours

they have been killing each other for years, its not going to stop no matter how hard we argue. it wont stop no matter if israel extends its hand in peace (been done).

it wont stop if palestine pledges to talks

they are a tempermental, egotistical bunch of people who are too proud for their own good.

Pride is good until you start shooting your neighbor.

i'm personally sick of hearing about all of it. everyday, it's another bomb, another suicide attack, another group of people dead, another group claiming responsibility and issuing a threat as if they were doing something revolutionary.

in the part of the world that is supposed to be the most sacred and holy, there exists only war and strife where people die for being born who they are.

as far as i'm concerned, neither side has anything to offer the world to make it a better place. it seems all they always do is make headlines with the newest most savage acts of violence.

i dont care whose people on this board they are. i dont care what creed you are.

i think it's fucking disgusting to see a people behaving in this manner, and if it was my people i'd be just as disgusted.

[Xpander]

Originally posted by tribal

there are 3 types of people who think they are right about this issue

type 1: the ones that are pro israeli and see the majority of palst as terrorists

type 2: the ones that are more left leaning and critisize israel for its policies, thereby dismissing palst terror acts as a byproduct of israeli actions.

type 3: the ones that just dont give a shit, the ones that know least about the situation

you are all wrong

for type 1, consider the fact that since 1967, israel maintained control of palst areas (the areas officially recongized by the entire world, UN Charter 147), by using military/economic/subversive measures, measures that many times were excessive and constitued crimes (sabra, shatila). adding to that, the Likud govt has routinely let messianic jewish settlers move into clear palst areas in order to build settlements, all in clear violation of international law.

for type 2, consider the fact that the Palst, are refugees from the 1948 war, a war started not by israel, but by its neighbors. consider the fact that the palst had in their national charter, explicit declaration to destroy israel, a declaration that was unwillfully revoked in 1993 due to the Oslo agreement.

consider the fact that Arafat is a recognized terrorist, directly and indirectly responsible for hundreds of israeli deaths, most recenlty with the Karine A fiasco, a palst boat that was transporting tons of deadly weapons for palst terror groups, all under control of arafat. consider the fact that palst media incites its citizens daily, by calling on young teenage 'martyrs' to drop their books, pick up rocks and attack israelis. by the way, the notion that palst only have rocks and hand guns is false. many are armed with molotv cocktails, ak-47, qassam 2 medium range missiles, mortars and anti tank weapons. adding to that the PA has close to 40 APCs and heavy anti armor weaponry. a great intelligence news site www.debka.com provides more information. oh and the daily suicide attacks dont help either.

for type 3: everything effects us, whether its as close as in south jersey, or as far as Be'er Sheba or Talin, ignorance is a pretty dangerous policy.

Thank you.

But I'm still not sure if anyone cares about South Jersey

[Abstrakt]

excellent points tribal.

[breakbeatz2]

in this argument, i dont think one side can ever appease the other.

thus, i think it comes down to pick your side, and let's get ready to rumble.

[mysterynyc]

Originally posted by xpander

Thank you.

But I'm still not sure if anyone cares about South Jersey

lololololololololololol.