How Muslim Countries View America

[midiman]

I emplore you to go and live in the west bank for a week. Misery loves company. I would love to see how you feel then.

[breaksny]

Nah they already understand the "real situation on the ground." Doing that might impair their judgement.

[dusted]

Here we go again: I feel Ifeel I feel.

How about thinking about that Israeli woman whose entire family was wiped out by a Palestinian suicide bomber. How do you think she feels?

[breaksny]

I for one never said that wasn't a tragic thing. Some of the more brainless people on here may've, but I'm not a barbarian. By contrast, I don't see the same compassion on your side for the other side. Care to show some?

[dusted]

I'll tell you how I'd feel. I'd be pretty pissed off at the PA leadership and the surrounding Arab nations, for using me as fodder for their petty squabbles.

I'd be pissed off that none of my Muslim brethren were helping me, or taking me in.

I'd be pissed off that my people kept attacking Israeli citizens, not soldiers mind you, but civilians, and making things worse for my people.

I would hope that my leadership, the PA, would wise up and call a cease-fire, and bring the Israelis back to the negotiating table.

I would hope that my people would get over this right of return business, since it can never happen, and pursue other avenues, such as resettlement in the surrounding nations.

There can't be right of return. Its too late. Too much damage has been done. It can't be. Forget it. Think of something else.

Finally, I would wish the PA would recognize Israel, and move on to trying to do something about the sorry state of ALL the Muslim people.

I would hope that my people would just let Israel be, and hope that the rest of the Arab nations would try to emulate it, instead of despising it and being jealous of it.

[dusted]

It is possible to feel sorry for someone, and still think they are in the wrong.

[breaksny]

Sigh. Does anyone else see what I mean now by my comment "you completely don't understand the other side of the conflict" in regard to dusted, malone, and tribal now? O ya, most of em left a while ago. Resettlement in the surrounding nations? Why they do that? It's their homeland. U ever think that they'd b pissed off that tanks, helicopters, troops, missiles, guns, naval vessels, and all sorts of other hostile and terrifying military hardware from a foreign country, operated by people who often don't speak your own language, is rumbling down your streets and slaughtering people, and in other ways completely destroying your lives? The Palestinians hate Arafat b/c of corruption, authoritarianism, the way he (like the israelis and other nations b4 him) support the old landed palestinian elite, and the way he operates as israel's policeman. They don't like him or the israelis b/c israel's security depends on palestinian authoritarianism and corruption, not to mention poverty.

[malone]

"or that quote you pulled about palestinians supporting the occupation. I never said that".

Sorry to be the one to break this to you, breaksny, but you did actually say that. Further more, you obviously didn't manage to erase it so it's still out there. I'm just glad you're not giving us an oral presentation . I can't begin to imagine what you'd deny having said under those conditions.

[malone]

"The Palestinians hate Arafat b/c of corruption, authoritarianism, the way he (like the israelis and other nations b4 him) support the old landed palestinian elite, and the way he operates as israel's policeman. They don't like him or the israelis b/c israel's security depends on palestinian authoritarianism and corruption, not to mention poverty"

Those Palestinians sure seem to have a lot of hate, now don't they. Now here's a wee question for you: Why does Israeli security depend on a) " Palestinian authoritarianism and corruption"? Are you acknowledging, albeit in a circuitous manner that Palestinians are a security threat to Israel? And

why does Israeli security depend on "Palestinian poverty"? I thought you wouldn't mind clarifying for us.

In addition, if Arafat is all of these bad things why haven't they gotten rid of him? Surely it can't be too difficult to accomplish for a people with their record of struggle against the Israeli defence forces? We have been told this same nonsense ad nauseam about how this or that Arab regime is hated by its people because of its corruption. Well, where in Allah's name are all those revolutionaries now? Well??

[malone]

"I for one never said that wasn't a tragic thing. Some of the more brainless people on here may've, but I'm not a barbarian. By contrast, I don't see the same compassion on your side for the other side. Care to show some?"

You never said it wasn't tragic?? Well, have you ever said that it was tragic? You see breaksny, you're not a participant in the actual dispute, on the ground, as it were, just an interested bystander. Surely you can do a little better than merely stating you compassion through the negative form. You're not a barbarian after all. On the other hand you have managed to convince yourself that Dusted is of the Jewish persuasion, which, if correct, would place Dusted much closer emotionally to the conflict. Yet despite this, you then proceed to attempt to elicit from said individual expressions of compassion that you yourself coul barely muster. At any rate, making such a point to begin with, is just puerile nonsense. Not only does it add nothing to the discussion, it's just a pissing contest about who can feel the other's pain the most. Come on.

[malone]

"I emplore you to go and live in the west bank for a week. Misery loves company. I would love to see how you feel then"

Who's paying? This suggestion makes about as much sense as oh, say, why don't you go live in Israel for a week and try and travel as much as possible by bus. I'd love to see how you feel then. You see, an argument that can be used to prove anything at all, is quite susceptible to the objection that it proves nothing at all.

[breaksny]

No malone I never did say that u moron and even if that'd been typed it'dve been a typo. Christ how fucking annoying do you wanna be? Now U distort my statements as well as preach hate. U obviously have no idea even what I'm saying either. Not that it matters. U seriously think Israel can do no wrong obviously.

In terms of the Jewish remark, I apologize. It's more a criticism of zionism than anyone's religion anyway but yer right I have no way of knowing his identity and I don't really care. Regardless, I don't c how my identity or proximity to the conflict has a damn thing to do with it. He posed a hypothetical question, I responded to it and that's all the discussion involved. I do see in tribal's experience a clear understanding of the intifada's effect on a portion of the israeli population, but little if any for the views of the israeli left or the palestinian side of the conflict, like u and dusted. I'm convinced u just don't get it and frankly don't want to. U don't even see your own racism, but whatever. Wtf is your point in saying "palestinians are a threat to israeli security" as a blanket statement anyway? That is flat out racism, talk about not contributing anything. How is that different from shouting the n-word, or any other racial epithet?

In terms of the woman dying, of course I said it was a tragedy, I have numerous times. I never condoned killing, I condoned Palestinian self defense u moron...fighting an occupation is self defense. The Israeli invasion of land it has no legal or other legitimate claim to is not. The problem with the settlements as far as I'm concerned is they're sitting targets. I can't say I think anyone has the right to go in there and murder people, but I would never put my family in a place like that where they'd basically be a sitting duck. I think most of these people are religious fanatics b/c of their view that this land (meaning the territories) is theirs by some sort of divine right, and while they don't deserve the suffering they experience, they're sort've asking for it b/c it's not Israeli land, under international law. It's like building your house next to a war zone. What's the point? But as far as my not getting the Israeli side, that's utter bs. I obviously know less than about Israeli side, but the arguments u present are only those of the right wing. It's no longer even the only mainstream of Israeli popular opinion. I don't see how you can just discount or doubt that fact. But suit yerself.

Put in yer last remark to distort my beliefs and let's end this stupid thread already. This whole argument is completely removed from nycmuzik's original idea of a dialogue anyway.

[dusted]

. The Israeli invasion of land it has no legal or other legitimate claim to is not.

---------------

Why do they have no legitimate claim to it?

If they don't then who does, and under what grounds?

Also, even if they didn't have any legit claim to it, why do you think its illegal for Jews to build settlements on it? Land ownership does not constitute occupation.

If I buy a house in France, that does not mean that America is occupying France.

[dusted]

The fact that there are millions of foreigners that own property in America, does that mean that America is being illegally occupied by foreign governments?

[dusted]

Lets say Jordan takes over the West Bank, and they throw all the Jews out, isn't that racist?

[dusted]

[i obviously know less than about Israeli side, but the arguments u present are only those of the right wing.

Why do you continue to label ideas that you disagree with right wing?

Why does everything have to have a slant with you. Why can't there just be correct ideas and incorrect ideas?

God, if you said to me 1+1=3 and I said No its not its 2, you'd say i was being right wing.

[malone]

Okay, breaksny, lets clear this up once and for all: You obviously did make that comment as it was lifted from your post. Am I trying to be annoying on the matter? Well, I simply sought clarification about what you ment by it , only to have you deny you even said it. It's instructive about your manner, that's all.

Now, why is saying Palestinians are a threat to Israeli security like saying the n-word? Get over your Stalinist inclinations to smear your opponents. Your continued reference to me as a moron is further evidence of this tendency and I would say doesn't help your case at all. It is infantile really, and adds nothing to your points. It's just plain rude! You say you can see the other side, really? Explain to me why you continually refer to the present conflict as brutal when refering to the Israelis, and as simply the "the intifada" (lifted right from the Palestinian Propaganda manual) when discussing the Palestinian side? You are the one without the balance here. Everything you've said from your first post to your most recent has passed through your leftist ideological filter. Don't you ever let your guard down and just look at the world as it might be without this constant intrusion? There's not a major journal of the left that I don't consult on a regular basis, and have done so for the past seventeen years now. In fact, as we found out yesterday, even some you weren't aware of. So to be very frank, I am quite familar with that side of the argument. To be familar with another side, though, is not necessarily to concur. I thought perhaps you might bring a little more energy to that side; show us another angle, if you will. Unfortunately, and regrettably really, you degenerated to name-calling, distortion of your opponents points, and just plain silly behavior. I would say this though: You strike me as being quite intelligent. I think you would do yourself a big favor by making a concerted attempt to broaden your exposure to other points of view, even those you disdainfully deem as "the right".

[dusted]

". Wtf is your point in saying "palestinians are a threat to israeli security" as a blanket statement anyway? That is flat out racism, talk about not contributing anything. How is that different from shouting the n-word, or any other racial epithet? "

I wonder if Breaksny would say that this is a true statement:

The Palestinians are not in any way a threat to Israeli security.

Or this one:

Syria is not a threat to Israeli security.

[malone]

"I'm convinced u just don't get it and frankly don't want to. U don't even see your own racism, but whatever".

The constant accusations of racism are a very common feature of encounters with the left. I don't doubt that those making this charge are often quite sincere in believing in their opponents racism. But, of course, that doesn't necessarily make it so. There is plenty of racism in the world without having to conjure it up. But that particular accusation has been so misused by now that it has lost a great deal of its punch. Notice anyone quaking in their boots??? It's crying wolf. People who are willing to bandy about these irresponsible accusations are being reckless in their behavior; and without precision in their language. It also smacks of extreme intellectual laziness. After all it's much easier to dismiss someone's position if you've already dismissed them as an irrational, mean-spirited, closed-minded racist/bigot. This is exactly what has been happening here. Labeling your adversaries the better to assist you in dealing with them. It's the big stick, whipped out every other sentence. This is no way for a mature adult to conduct a discussion. Throw away that crutch, and see if you can't stand on your own two feet. Have a little more confidence in your case, and your own abilities to defend it. When you unburden youself thusly, who knows, you may even come to recognize actual racism some day if you happen upon it.

[breaksny]

[dusted]

Originally posted by malone

"I'm convinced u just don't get it and frankly don't want to. U don't even see your own racism, but whatever".

The constant accusations of racism are a very common feature of encounters with the left. I don't doubt that those making this charge are often quite sincere in believing in their opponents racism. But, of course, that doesn't necessarily make it so. There is plenty of racism in the world without having to conjure it up. But that particular accusation has been so misused by now that it has lost a great deal of its punch. Notice anyone quaking in their boots??? It's crying wolf. People who are willing to bandy about these irresponsible accusations are being reckless in their behavior; and without precision in their language. It also smacks of extreme intellectual laziness. After all it's much easier to dismiss someone's position if you've already dismissed them as an irrational, mean-spirited, closed-minded racist/bigot. This is exactly what has been happening here. Labeling your adversaries the better to assist you in dealing with them. It's the big stick, whipped out every other sentence. This is no way for a mature adult to conduct a discussion. Throw away that crutch, and see if you can't stand on your own two feet. Have a little more confidence in your case, and your own abilities to defend it. When you unburden youself thusly, who knows, you may even come to recognize actual racism some day if you happen upon it.

The accusations of racism are really used by the left to silence people and censor them. They think people will be cowed into shutting up due to shame and embarrassment of being called a racist, which is unfortunately true a lot of the time. Its just another form of bullying.

It really truly is an attempt to stop ideas they don't like from being deceminated.

[dusted]

This link has interesting writings from the Israeli perspective.

http://netanyahu.org/abpal.html

[malone]

I do sincerely hope that some of those who wave their lefty credentials as if they were a badge of honor would check out some of the material on that link you posted, Dusted. It may not change their minds, but it can serve as the begining of a corrective. I agree entirely, Dusted,with your points that the name-calling is used as a means of censorship of ideas that may not be fashionable. But, I think their is an even more insidious form of the genre afoot here: the tendency to self-censorship. Yesterday breaksny acknowledged that he didn't know as much about the Israeli side as others. Well who's fault is that? Isn't that the end result of a willful decision not to self-inform?? The information is certainly out there - but that's not much good if someone has already made up their minds that the only point of view that matters is that which carries the imprimatur of the left. Yet it doesn't stop these people from claiming their views as "balanced". Look, for the longest time the left was silent about the barbarities of the Soviet Union (and many still are), while they showed no such restraint in condemning right-wing dictatorships throughout the globe. And when finally that system collapsed, and even more information emerged about it's evil, they said: "well it wasn't actually- existing socialism that the Soviets practiced." For crying out loud!!

[dusted]

THE PALESTINIANS IN THEIR OWN WORDS (Palestinian Quote Sheet #50) 16 October 2000

On 13 October 2000, the official Palestinian Authority television station broadcast live a Friday sermon in the Zayed bin Sultan Aal Nahyan mosque in Gaza. Below are excerpts from the sermon, as transcribed by the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI), .

The speaker is Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya, Member of the Palestinian Authority-appointed "Fatwa Council" and former acting Rector of the Islamic University in Gaza.

On killing Jews and Americans:

"O brother believers, the criminals, the terrorists - are the Jews, who have butchered our children, orphaned them, widowed our women and desecrated our holy places and sacred sites. They are the terrorists. They are the ones who must be butchered and killed, as Allah the Almighty said: 'Fight them: Allah will torture them at your hands, and will humiliate them and will help you to overcome them, and will relieve the minds of the believers..."

"Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them. Wherever you are, kill those Jews and those Americans who are like them - and those who stand by them - they are all in one trench, against the Arabs and the Muslims because they established Israel here, in the beating heart of the Arab world, in Palestine. They created it to be the outpost of their civilization and the vanguard of their army, and to be the sword of the West and the crusaders, hanging over the necks of the monotheists, the Muslims in these lands. They wanted the Jews to be their spearhead..."

On making peace with Israel:

"Even if an agreement of Gaza is signed - we shall not forget Haifa, and Acre, and the Galilee, and Jaffa, and the Triangle and the Negev, and the rest of our cities and villages. It is only a matter of time. The weak will not remain forever weak, and the strong will not remain forever strong... If we are weak today... and we are not able to regain our rights, then at least we have to pass on the banner - waving high - to our children and grandchildren..."

"...We will not give up a single grain of soil of Palestine, from Haifa, and Jaffa, and Acre, and Mulabbas [Petah Tikva] and Salamah, and Majdal [Ashkelon], and all the land, and Gaza, and the West Bank..."

"...Let us put our trust in Allah, close ranks, and unite our words, and the slogan of us all should be, 'Jihad! Jihad! For the sake of Palestine, and for the sake of Jerusalem and Al-Aqsa!'"

An excerpt from the link.

[malone]

I think you're doing these guys a big favor here, Dusted. I suspect you may be wasting your time though. For, as breaksny said:"Nah they already understand the 'real situation on the ground.' Doing that might impair their judgement."