globalgirl Posted September 3 Report Share Posted September 3 I think what we are seeing right now is some of the old school labels who have not kept up with the times closing shop. It was very easy for labels to make money back in the day. I dont think Nervous folded because of downloading. Go onto any DL server like Soulseek, Kazaa, or whatever and do a search for any of the latest Nervous titles. You wont find many. Nervous has been stuck in the old NY Diva house style for too long, and never changed their image or their sound. You can't have a succesful label anymore just making music for NYC. Downloading is a very easy excuse to put the blame on right now. Dont get me wrong though. I think there needs to be something done about DL illegale MP3's, but not all labels should use that as an excuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidalexander Posted September 3 Report Share Posted September 3 major factor leading to the closing of SR & Nervous IMO...is demand-Less demand means less profit per single release. If you sold 10,000 pieces 10 years ago and now are only selling 1000, there is less $$ for staff, promos, distribution, A&R..etc....it gets to the point where it just doesnt make eco sense to continue in its present format. -Why isnt the demand there1. Havent kept up with the tastes of the buying public. Face it they got stale. Just like MicMac, Cardiac, Hot,..etc..etc. older labels that couldn't or wouldn't adjust to the changes in consumer tastes2. Competition has spread out demand. When SR & Nerv first started how many labels were there doing what they did? 20, 30. How many now. Every week I listen to about a 130 tracks for 130 different labels..I only have a limited $$ so even if 130 were great, Im choosin 10 tops3. More genere's have spread out demand. When SR & Nev started. There was house and house and maybe some house. Now we got, trance, house, deep house, tribal house, breaks, D&B, prog house, tech house..etc...etc... Labels dont appeal to everyone so they must "specialize" or have a sub label or two..ex..sondos and subusa..for subliminal4. Over saturated Compilations...back in the days everyone purchased wax, the djs and those that loved the music..b/c that was the only way to hear it at home...no the ave dance music enthusiast will not by the wax or cd single, but will wait for the MOS 60 track 3CD...sure labels get lic out of the comps..but the competition to get even one single on a mix cd is tuffI think its easier for a label to start now than for a giant label to adjust to the changes..labels like Hooj and Kismet r playing with digital DL for 99cents..maybe thats might help the distribution and pressing costs....dont know..Maybe SR & Nerv will return leaner and stronger...look at Tribal..I mean Twisted..I mean Twisted...looks like 3 times a charm for them.peaceDavid Alexander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
housekat Posted September 3 Report Share Posted September 3 nervous has not been a great house label in years. they have put out mostly shit for the past five years or so & thats the same thing that happend to stricty rhythm they put out that 1 track by acosta planet soul (they should have called it planet sold out) and it was all down hill from there. it's a tough time for every one in the underground house scean it dosn't help if you suck as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezrafree Posted September 4 Report Share Posted September 4 Originally posted by shroomy Of course any copy protection will be broken. But that is pretty much beside the point.Its still wrong, and all information should not be free. If I spend hundreds of hours comming up with a new idea anyone should just be able to steal it and use it? Gimme a break, it would kill every high tech business in the us. Including mine and all my customers.And your missing the point, stealling ideas is no different than steallin a TV. Its wrong, just because its easy or possible doesn't change the fact.And these megalomaniac hackers are idiots. They pretend they just want to expose security flaws! Gimme a break, how about if I walk up to them, beat them into the ground and tell them "I just wanted to expose you weakness in physical security"Breaking a law behind a computer, or behind a gun is still breaking the law. And real people suffer. Just because you don't know them doesn't make it right.BTW the PGP guy Phill Zimmerman was never thrown in jail, the gov had a suit against him for like 3 years which they finally droped. It was for illegally exporting secrets basically because he gave away his software over the net to whomever wanted it. yea sorry i meant to say they tried to jail him... same shit. the point is they knew exactly what a powerful weapon information and the ability for any joe bloke to be able to protect it is...diabolique007, you mentioned "the problem will never go away" and i just want to say that depends if you consider it a problem...Of course any copy protection will be broken. But that is pretty much beside the point.Its still wrong, and all information should not be free. If I spend hundreds of hours comming up with a new idea anyone should just be able to steal it and use it? Gimme a break, it would kill every high tech business in the us. Including mine and all my customers.it's not beside the point in my opinion... and as far as "information not being free" or "what if i spend hundreds of hours on a new idea" welp, let's face something here folks... we are living in a world of exponentially increasing novelty (amount of ideas in a sense), and it all boils down to a power struggle. those big tech companies protect their intellectual property rights because they can. RIAA is no different. information itself, is still free whether you choose to beleive it or not. no matter what anyone ever does to try to keep the flow of information from flowing they will never succeed, it's just impossible. it would be like trying to make noone ever think again... and beleive me they'd love it if they could do that "but it's stealing" "but it's wrong", that all depends on who you let tell you what is right and wrong. you gonna let a bunch of 40 year old guys in suits tell you what's right and wrong or are you gonna follow your heart and do what you feel is best. not trying to say it's right, just wish people would think for themselves a bit more when it comes to this and other matters. you know, taking drugs is "illegal" and therefore considered "wrong" as well, i wonder how many people would say "but it's illegal, so it's wrong" on that one? do we just follow the law when it's convenient for us? some things to think about and watch out for...When you guys who know how to read, go to a newspaper stand, you know the kind where you put in a quarter and you take a paper, do you:1. take only one paper2. take all the papers?????The avg person will not steal, if they are given a good enough reason not to.This is built into any market. Downloading is not easy, it's a pain in the ass. Go check out oscar g live on kazza or blubster, those are my rips, i put them on there, i loved that cd, and i wanted the the public to hear that cd, heck i don't even know if that cd was for sale. I think it was a space give away, anyways, go try and download then entire cd... i ripped it and made my own tracks..here is the tracklisting:Oscar G Live Club Space 1.mp3Oscar G Live Club Space 2.mp3Oscar G Live Club Space 3.mp3Oscar G Live Club Space 4.mp3Oscar G Live Club Space 5.mp3Oscar G Live Club Space 6.mp3Oscar G Live Club Space 7.mp3Oscar G Live Club Space 8.mp3Oscar G Live Club Space 9.mp3Oscar G Live Club Space 10.mp3Oscar G Live Club Space 11.mp3Oscar G Live Club Space 12.mp3it will take you a month or months to find all the tracks, match them up and burn the cd, and since there is no tracklisting, you have no idea how many tracks there are.maybe it would take YOU a month to download, maybe it would take a month to download off of Kaaza where it's a bunch of dialup kids... but the times are changing faster then most can imagine and the amount of people with access to high-speed ftp servers where they can literally get whatever the fuck they want, is growing. even on places like Kaaza (not Kaaza but newer, similar file-sharing apps like it) if you know the right people nothing will take you more then a few hours to get. nothing. the amount of everyday people with t1 or better is continually growing as we wire up the world and the situation shows no signs of letting up... this is probably what the RIAA fears the most about all this, the rate at which information is continually being exchanged, and it's constant exponential doubling... 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Guest saleen351 Posted September 4 Report Share Posted September 4 do me a favor go download that entire cd and post when you have all 12 tracks... 100% shot you will never be able to do it, but if i gave you a choice to download or buy a copy for 10 bucks, you'd buy that cd if you truely wanted it..... but at 16 dollar price tags, about 40% higher price, you will never buy it. thus people are more inclined to buy cds they want if the price was right... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintjohn Posted September 4 Report Share Posted September 4 anyone care to address the difference between store-bought (red book) audio cds and typical mp3 files? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orisha Posted September 4 Report Share Posted September 4 Originally posted by ezrafree diabolique007, you mentioned "the problem will never go away" and i just want to say that depends if you consider it a problem...it's not beside the point in my opinion... and as far as "information not being free" or "what if i spend hundreds of hours on a new idea" welp, let's face something here folks... we are living in a world of exponentially increasing novelty (amount of ideas in a sense), and it all boils down to a power struggle. those big tech companies protect their intellectual property rights because they can. RIAA is no different. information itself, is still free whether you choose to beleive it or not. no matter what anyone ever does to try to keep the flow of information from flowing they will never succeed, it's just impossible. it would be like trying to make noone ever think again... and beleive me they'd love it if they could do that "but it's stealing" "but it's wrong", that all depends on who you let tell you what is right and wrong. you gonna let a bunch of 40 year old guys in suits tell you what's right and wrong or are you gonna follow your heart and do what you feel is best. not trying to say it's right, just wish people would think for themselves a bit more when it comes to this and other matters. you know, taking drugs is "illegal" and therefore considered "wrong" as well, i wonder how many people would say "but it's illegal, so it's wrong" on that one? do we just follow the law when it's convenient for us? some things to think about and watch out for...Tru...deep down it's great to have tons of music. but, also, I meet too many DJs/Producers who get upset about about it, so I feel I have to respect that to some degree, and download with a conscience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southof5th Posted September 4 Report Share Posted September 4 thanks to bittorrents I got matrix reloaded, 1.5gigs, with full 5.1 AC3 surround sound...in about 3 hoursin terms of dance music, I think "piracy" has nothing but positive effects...with so many artists and DJs, proliferation over the Internet helps tremendously to get their music known over the whole world...eg.Oscar G has his set recorded at Space, it makes it's way to Kazaa, someone in NYC is browsing discussion boards like this one, sees people talking about OG, searches on Kazaa, downloads the set, LIKES IT, sees OG is spinning in NJ, decides to go, spends the $20 to get in...just one example Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidalexander Posted September 4 Report Share Posted September 4 Check this article out...seems like some of the big record co's are starting to adjust to the new reality....lets see if this even makes a difference...http://money.cnn.com/2003/09/04/news/international/universal_cds/index.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexusgroove Posted September 4 Report Share Posted September 4 David Alexander as in Kaeknow and David Alexander? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidalexander Posted September 4 Report Share Posted September 4 yes sir!!! that would be me...DA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexusgroove Posted September 4 Report Share Posted September 4 Cool. just checking. its been awhile since I seen u around MIa.peaceGrooveRadio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidalexander Posted September 4 Report Share Posted September 4 Nexus you work with Concept right...long time no see dude!!! Ive been MIA in the Mia...PM with the station info..I send u some nu mixesDA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djm Posted September 4 Report Share Posted September 4 I am not a DJ. But I can get most tracks faster and sooner than most DJ's can. I get about 200 vinyls (in mp3 format) a month, although like I said not all are Vinyl rips, some of them are studio promo's and cd rips. But if I were a DJ I would use my tracks to spin only if they were not avilable for me to buy yet. As is the case with 90% of the stuff I Get. So it's a shame that it's easier and faster to get the music free than it is to pay for it. But IF I couldn't get it FREE, I wouldn't get it at all. So the "Industry" looses nothing on me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxgrooveericxx Posted September 5 Report Share Posted September 5 Originally posted by djm I am not a DJ. But I can get most tracks faster and sooner than most DJ's can. I get about 200 vinyls (in mp3 format) a month, although like I said not all are Vinyl rips, some of them are studio promo's and cd rips. But if I were a DJ I would use my tracks to spin only if they were not avilable for me to buy yet. As is the case with 90% of the stuff I Get. So it's a shame that it's easier and faster to get the music free than it is to pay for it. But IF I couldn't get it FREE, I wouldn't get it at all. So the "Industry" looses nothing on me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southof5th Posted September 5 Report Share Posted September 5 I don't know how economics has much to do with dance music...MOST dance music has come from someone's bedroom studio...and is not driven by the need to make a living...With cheaper technology and more advanced software, we should be seeing an explosion in available tracks...Maybe that's not what kids are into as much as they were in the mid 90's though...But whatever the case, I will NOT SUCCUMB TO HIP-HOP!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidalexander Posted September 5 Report Share Posted September 5 Economics has a lot to do with it. For many producers this is not a hobby but a livelyhood. This is how they get paid. A lot of hours can be invested in creating a track. Those who are professionals 9 times out 10 will create quality music. All the producers I admire have been at this game for a while and have the skill and talent to put out something worth my $$, this is also how many of them make a living. Sure people who produce love what they do, but thats not a justifcation for them to lose money or time. The rise of technology and cheap bedroom setups has created a flood of weak tracks...There is no quailty control....Anyone with Reason and some refills can create shit and try to market it. I dont wont an explosion of crap, soon I will be listening to 300 records a week most of them crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest saleen351 Posted September 5 Report Share Posted September 5 Originally posted by southof5th I don't know how economics has much to do with dance music that could be the dumbest thing ever posted on here...dude econmoics has to do with everything on earth....NSTAAFL <<<< learn it, know it, understand it.... nothing is free, thus it's all based on economics.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southof5th Posted September 5 Report Share Posted September 5 take it easy...I'm talking economics on scale with producing a eg. Celine Dion CD is not the same as in dance music. During the most influential days where dance music progressed the most, a cut of 3,000 vinyls was considered a successfull production.those who don't depend on something for a living are more likely to take risks...and thus be inventive...when it's done for commercial success it becomes stale and predictable....if your worried about a flood of crap, of course there are filters for thatsalee, before calling me stupid, what are your credentials for talking about economics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
properheadcase Posted September 11 Report Share Posted September 11 I've read a fair chunk of the convo so far. I'll just add my usual comments on the subject and some references to the convo so far - and see what y'all have to say...Yes, downloading MP3's is illegal so is anti-competitive practice. The major labels are clearly acting in an anti-competitive manner, or rather the RIAA is, on their behalf.85% of CDs sold in the US are from the big 5 - the only members of the RIAA, mind you. They regularly mis-report the number of CDs being sold, or more accurately, the so-called lost sales. Sales are being lost to independent labels who actually release album's worth of good music as opposed to an album containing between 1 and 3 singles and the balance is uninspired filler (assuming the singles where inspired to begin with).Before anyone jumps on me about that, let me say overall sales of CDs ARE down. Why? We're in a period of "downward correction" aka a minor depression. The sales of everything is down. The first thing to be effected by decreased spending power is entertainment and non-necessary items (with the exception of alcohol).THERE's some more excruciatingly simple economics for you.Also, as has been mentioned, to an extent, the fact is that music as a whole is suffering from it's own success. There are now more styles to choose from and more artists within those styles. The majority of the public have limited spending power, so of course they'll have to make a choice as to which Maxi(s) or 12"(s) they're gonna buy.In the early 60s the choices, as far as pop music were concerned were pretty limited - rock and roll or soul (blues, country and jazz weren't pop, for the purpose of this illiustration), and there was plenty of cross-over between the two - Wilson Pickett being a prime example. By the late 70's there was rock and roll, so-called stadium rock, psychedelic rock, hard rock, metal, punk, ska, reggae, disco, early hip-hop, etc., etc. Still there was enough of a market that it all did pretty well - at least in part because of the still exploding population.Now, in early 2000, we have dozens more genres that are big enough that it's possible for people to have a fulfilling musical experience by sticking to just one genre - though most dabble in others. And Westernized nations where, let's face it, most of the record buying happens is facing a marked stagnation in birth rates and the average age is, therefore, gradually creeping upwards. Of course these things are effecting record sales.There's no doubt that downloading and burning is having some effect on sales, too - as per the table posted previously:There are plenty of labels that have started up in that time that are doing just fine - Naked Music springs to mind as an excellent example.Now, where is the 2% tax from all CD-R sales going? And what about the tax on CD-R units? Those items are decreasing in price in line with manufacturing economies of scale. Yet pre-recorded CD's are doing just the opposite, until very recently. Mainly because of the ludicrous amounts that the major labels are spending on marketing their product in an increasingly competitive and apathetic market. That said, if that's why Major label CDs are so expensive why are independent label's CDs exactly the same price? Do you s'pose that the record stores are being strong-armed by the labels? Sure, the independents don't have the economy of scale working in their favour, but EXACTLY the same price?What gets me is that the RIAA sued Napster and AudioGalaxy into oblivion and are now afer the file-sharing individuals but the fact is that they should be embracing this technology, and here's why...Moby (Which major label is he distributed by, by the way?). The most downloaded artist on Napster (for the tracks from 'Play'), whilst also having his best selling album ever (erm, 'Play'). The month of highest traffic on Napster was also the best month for CD sales for 5 years (the last September of Napsters existence, IIRC).The RIAA's rhetoric regarding massive decreases in CD sales in university towns, where the highest concentrations of Napster users were, failed to mention the massive and roughly equal increase in on-line CD sales. If someone's downloading music how can you categorically deny the likelihood that these same people are buying music on-line?http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=cache:uQzGotfCZ0cJ:www.nielsen-netratings.com/pr/pr_030508.pdf+netratings+111%25&hl=en&ie=UTF-8, the global standard for Internet audience measurement and analysis, reports that rap music is the most popular genre purchased by Internet users downloading music. According to the latest data from the Nielsen//NetRatings @Plan service, online music enthusiasts were 111 percent more likely to purchase rap music than the average Internet user over the past three months (see Table 1). Dance and club music held the second spot, with downloaders 106 percent more likely to have purchased dance and club music than the average Internet surfer and 77 percent more likely to purchase alternative rock. R&B/soul music and rock rounded out the top five.Here's another table (from the same source) for you:Genre Index1. Rap 2112. Dance/Club 2063. Alternative Rock 1774. R&B/Soul 1635. Rock 1506. Pop/Top 40 1417. Soundtracks 1418. Alternative Country 1399. World 13910. Blues 125That means that even the least popular download genre, 'Blues', was 25% more likely to be bought if downloaded first. And if you notice there's a rough correllation between likely age of downloader and likelihood of purchase - the older downloaders were less likely to buy, on-line at least.I do not disagree with the legality issue. Downloading IS illegal and an infringement on the artist's rights. But the music industry is anachronistic, especially as far as the major labels are concerned. Other industries move with the times and tastes of people - the labels may do it to an extent, with regard to product, but their marketing and distribution models are up the wazoo (or should that be 'Kazaa'?).The larger labels miss out by being album-focused, insofar as they release albums and then release singles to support those albums, when they should have released the singles to test the market's acceptance of the artist/style and then committed to an album. The smaller labels, especialy the 12"/single centric labels generally miss out. Especially if they eschew CDs for vinyl. CDs are cheaper to produce, cheaper to ship, and allow CD-DJs and non-DJs the opportunity to purchase tracks that they like.An example: It's taken me months to finally get the CD-Maxi of Solid Sessions' 'Janeiro' (with Holden & Lemon 8 mixes - thank you, once again, Avex Asia, IIRC - thanks for the WoW and Hybrid singles, anyway). Yet, MOS and similar compilations are piled onto our record-store shelves. Here's a thought, if the albums sell really well, wouldn't the unmixed single versions of those songs sell, too? Certainly enough to justify a couple of each single coming in with the albums. :blown: My name's Alan and I download MP3s... lots. I also own in excess of 4000 CDs (singles, EPs AND albums).The people who have not got money from me are the artists on major labels who have 1-2 OK tracks, no good remixes and an album consisting of skits, shit and filler (though they DO get a portion from the compilations that I buy).Unfortunately, the other people who have received no money from me are the artists/producers/labels putting out good Nu-Skool Breaks & Progressive House because they won't release, or rarely release stuff on CD. When they do, I buy it - thank you Skint, Botchit & Scarpa, Bolshi, Mob, etc. for at least releasing unmixed or semi-mixed comps and the occasional CD single for us CD-DJs. And thank you Union Square Music for the House Breaks Session compilation! More please.Going all the way back to the start, again, and talking about Nervous...They were cool in the mid-90s, weren't they? They may still have been good but I haven't heard anything from anyone to say that they were, recently, but I used to see Nervous record bags and T-Shirts in Auckland (that's New Zealand, BTW) BEFORE I started DJing (9-10 years ago).Wasn't Josh Wink with Nervous, or didn't he at least release a couple of tracks through them? Same with Masters at Work, 'The Nervous Track' anyone?Josh Wink, and by extension Ovum (and thus King Britt et al.) are doing OK, last I heard. Masters at Work are still going strong (yet another M@W remix of a George Benson track on the latest GB retrospective compilation).Yeah, so let's blame CD-R and P2P for the demise of Nervous Better more demographically accurate marketing would lead to more and cheaper CD releases.The internet is there - F#@KING USE IT!!! :blown: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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