fkornre Posted November 16 Report Share Posted November 16 if it comes out and barry admits to using steriods would you still consider him as one of the best/the best player of all time???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtk4 Posted November 16 Report Share Posted November 16 nope. good but not great. He might of still been a hof'er even without the retarded numbers he put up in the past 6-7 years, but he would not be up there with the greats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicman Posted November 16 Report Share Posted November 16 no Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomembername Posted November 16 Report Share Posted November 16 great player...yeah but not anywhere close to what he is today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfitz73 Posted November 16 Report Share Posted November 16 The Bonds of the early 90's was still a great, maybe HOF type of player... But the arguement about him being the best ever would be over... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magellanmax Posted November 17 Report Share Posted November 17 if it comes out and barry admits to using steriods would you still consider him as one of the best/the best player of all time????I said it awhile back.... steroids will prolly make you hit a ball further, but not make contact. Hitting a ball is a eye-hand co-ordination talent... no amount of steroids will give you that...(atleast untill its proven otherwise). Discipline at the plate is what has made BB put up redic. #s in the last few years. And also, he was exceptional this year after the scandal broke. Now, i'm gonna go out on a limb and say he didnt do roids this year..... and if he did, he's gotta be the dumbest thing on 2 feet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fkornre Posted November 17 Author Report Share Posted November 17 i agree with u on the eye contact thing and having the discipline at the plate...but he is still breaking the law and doing an "enhancement" drug...would this not discredit him??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magellanmax Posted November 17 Report Share Posted November 17 ...but he is still breaking the law and doing an "enhancement" drug...would this not discredit him???According to the collective bargaining agreement, if the said drug wasnt listed as a banned substance... it wont count as a violation, hence, he will be presumed innocent of any wrongdoing... but when uncle sam joins the fray, its a whole new ballgame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicman Posted November 17 Report Share Posted November 17 i agree with u on the eye contact thing and having the discipline at the plate...but he is still breaking the law and doing an "enhancement" drug...would this not discredit him???yup. the extra strength from the 'roids probably enables him to hit the ball that extra 20-30 ft which makes a difference between a deep pop fly and a HR in many ocassions. he wouldve still hit a lot of HR's in his career w/o the 'roids, he just wouldn't be near the 700+ he has today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codica3 Posted November 17 Report Share Posted November 17 The guy is a good player, and I would really hate to see all of that taken away because of steroids.. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that all this shit blows the hell over for good and people start appreciating what he's done instead of questioning it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainpec Posted November 17 Report Share Posted November 17 I will not argue hand eye coordination to a hitter as being the key element, but why is "intimidation" overlooked? No one can say that steroids does not have a quantifiable impact on stats with the exception of distance of the ball. Take the well known Caminiti and look at his number before and during steroids... the guy was like a .260 batter and turned into a .300 batter over night. The fact that you hit the ball HARDER, not just further will make 1. the infielder's job much more difficult in stopping balls, 2. will make you produce alot more line drives as opposed to fly balls, and arguement 3. was already stated with regards to balls carrying over the wall.We won't even get into the fact that pitchers are going to throw the ball around and off the plate... you are ahead of the count more times than not and you now have a better chance at picking your pitches to swing at.I won't discredit Bonds 100% - he is still a good hitter... is he a great hitter with "great hand eye coordination?" - I would rather call up the name Gwynn instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfitz73 Posted November 17 Report Share Posted November 17 Everyone keep talking about hitters in regards to steroids, but what about pitchers?? It seems like any 23 y/o kid in the minors comes up throwing 98.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainpec Posted November 17 Report Share Posted November 17 The purpose of using steroids is to build muscle. Unless the guy is absolutely a thin rail, I don't understand how roids can benefit a pitcher - they need to be loose, not tight and muscular. Bulking up isn't going to necessarily make a pitcher throw harder... Randy Johnson. You don't see many pitchers out there with the physique of a bodybuilder.I don't see it... What's your view? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonStephen Posted November 17 Report Share Posted November 17 he's still one of the greatest, if not THE greatest, players ever....roids or no roids Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfitz73 Posted November 17 Report Share Posted November 17 The purpose of using steroids is to build muscle. Unless the guy is absolutely a thin rail, I don't understand how roids can benefit a pitcher - they need to be loose, not tight and muscular. Bulking up isn't going to necessarily make a pitcher throw harder... Randy Johnson. You don't see many pitchers out there with the physique of a bodybuilder.I don't see it... What's your view?Not all steroid are for bulking... As for pitchers with muscular physiques..ClemensBeckettSchillingKerry WoodI'm not saying theys guys are using. Just that they are big, strong guys that overpower hitters. Much like hitting, pitching is an art. Sheer power isn't gonna do it alone... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codica3 Posted November 17 Report Share Posted November 17 Not all steroid are for bulking... As for pitchers with muscular physiques..ClemensYeah but have you seen Clemens' work out regiments? The guy is a fucking maniac when it comes to working out.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fkornre Posted November 17 Author Report Share Posted November 17 but the most of the pitchers throwing speed are long and lengthy...not big and bulky... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfitz73 Posted November 17 Report Share Posted November 17 Yeah but have you seen Clemens' work out regiments? The guy is a fucking maniac when it comes to working out....Steroids don't work by themselves... You have to work out to get the proper effects. As a matter of fact, steriods allow you to work out harder for longer while a natural person would be overtraining...Again, I'm not accusing Clemens or anybody else of anything. I'm just pointing out that pitchers are being overlooked in this whole steroid issue... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfitz73 Posted November 17 Report Share Posted November 17 but the most of the pitchers throwing speed are long and lengthy...not big and bulky...Bartolo Colon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codica3 Posted November 17 Report Share Posted November 17 Steroids don't work by themselves... You have to work out to get the proper effects. As a matter of fact, steriods allow you to work out harder for longer while a natural person would be overtraining...Again, I'm not accusing Clemens or anybody else of anything. I'm just pointing out that pitchers are being overlooked in this whole steroid issue...Yeah but is there evidence against them?There was evidence against Bonds, Giambi, and Sheffield, wasn't there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfitz73 Posted November 17 Report Share Posted November 17 Yeah but is there evidence against them?There was evidence against Bonds, Giambi, and Sheffield, wasn't there?Not absolute proof... Just a lot of speculation... If there was evidence, action would have been taken already... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codica3 Posted November 17 Report Share Posted November 17 Not absolute proof... Just a lot of speculation... If there was evidence, action would have been taken already...But it's not like they're going after EVERY hitter that's big - there must be something against them that those were the ones that were chosen, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtk4 Posted November 17 Report Share Posted November 17 if clemens or any other older pitchers gained 3-4 mph on their fastball then i would say maybe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfitz73 Posted November 17 Report Share Posted November 17 But it's not like they're going after EVERY hitter that's big - there must be something against them that those were the ones that were chosen, no?All I'm saying is that if those 4 got arrested and put on trial for steroid use, chances are they would get off because of lack of hard evidence. I'll agree that is doesn't look good with Bonds trainer getting arrested, Sheff accidently using that steroid, and Sosa and Giambi magically shrinking. These things are all circumstancial though. I think they all probably did something shady but if this is all the "evidence" you have to go on they will continue to deny it and you'll never find out what really happened... It's like a murder case. You might be able to place someone at the scene of the crime around the time the murder occured, but if thats the basis of your case and you don't have hard evidence (weapon, dna, fingerprints etc...) you're not going to convict anyone... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfitz73 Posted November 17 Report Share Posted November 17 d/p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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