white boy questions hip-hop

[noiseboy]

just thought i'd start a music-related thread (gasp! the horror!). . .

i was talking with some esteemed gentlemen at some point in the past week, when i posed a question:

Can hip-hop be non-violent, or is violence, in some fashion, at the very foundation of hip-hop??

the reason i ask this is because, like dance music (techno, trance, house, etc.) has drug culture as part of its foundation. . . and please let's not start the whole "drugs aren't or don't have to be a part of the culture" schtick. they are. there will NEVER be a rave without some sort of drug usage or reference involved. . .

i believe that violence IS, in some form, at the root of hip-hop, be it physical or lyrical violence. . .

i ask because i've been watching this shitty special "When Lyrics Attack" on mTV and glaad and everyone else is up in arms over eminem and his lyrics. . . this question seems relevant to the topic, i thought. (i mean, other than the fact that people are just looking for someone else to blame. . . )

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HARDCORE. . . ya better ask somebody!!

[ooana]

Hrmm, intresting question.

I'm not sure if violence is necessarily at the root of all hip-hop but quite possibly...conflict.

Actually, conflict is probably at the root of most music, whether that's conflict of the heart, mind, soul, body, physical, mental, extreme or subtle.

Conflict is what draws us to all art, even in music. Whether its a lyric that just pulls at our senses in such a way that we can't help but gasp, or a change in beat, rhythm, melody that just makes our breath stand poised.

I personally am not a huge fan of most hip-hop but I think it may be because it voices a kind of conflict that doesn't appeal to me.

Hope I'm making sense...feeling oddly...introverted and thoughtful today.

-Oo

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"When the soul wishes to experience something, she throws an image of the experience out before her, and enters into her own image."

---"You have wings! Why don't I have wings?!"

---"Cause you're a boy, silly."

"For the Greeks, the hidden life demanded invisible ink. They wrote an ordinary letter and in between the lines set out to write another letter, written in milk. The document looked innocent enough until one who knew better sprinkled coal-dust over it. What the letter had been no longer mattered: what mattered was the life flaring up undetected..."

[noiseboy]

Originally posted by ooana:

I'm not sure if violence is necessarily at the root of all hip-hop but quite possibly...conflict.

Actually, conflict is probably at the root of most music, whether that's conflict of the heart, mind, soul, body, physical, mental, extreme or subtle.

Conflict is what draws us to all art, even in music. Whether its a lyric that just pulls at our senses in such a way that we can't help but gasp, or a change in beat, rhythm, melody that just makes our breath stand poised.

-Oo

hmmm. . . maybe i should have said "anger" instead of violence?? even though anger generally leads to violence. . .

and i don't see conflict as the only major root to most art and music. . . (even though i know you didn't mean this ) i mean, i see art and especially music as a way to express the beauty that can't be described in words or in a simple explanation. . . and it's that type of work that usually catches me unawares, and affects me all the more. . .

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HARDCORE. . . ya better ask somebody!!

[a691vcc]

I started out only listening to hip-hop when I was young. When i started droppin bombz i then started to feel techno. I also feel like I grew out of being a "thug". I don't drop as many bombz anymore but I'm still addicted to the music. Iz violence part

of hip-hop. Hip-hop spawned from Urban

life which iz infested with crime. Hip-hop

haz now gone global spreading itz violent message everywhere. Proof of this are the low life kidz in say utah who now have a loser like emeinem as their mentorz.I am a fan of hip-hop today but even worse than the

violence, is the non-violent approach of today in which the rapperz rap about how they r cool just cuz they gotz money, they neglect the fact that money iz just one of the many aspects of happiness.

[hit-em up, iz the best hip-hop song eva]

[shadowchaser]

If you took you out the violence, useless anger, drugs, money, hoes, bitches, gang references, down with whitey references out of hip hop music...what do you have?

'Kriss Kross make ya wanna...jump jump..."

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life's a dance party...then you die...

shadowchaser076@aol.com

[pookie23]

Originally posted by shadowchaser:

If you took you out the violence, useless anger, drugs, money, hoes, bitches, gang references, down with whitey references out of hip hop music...what do you have?

'Kriss Kross make ya wanna...jump jump..."

I couldn't have said it better myself?

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AIM: Spragga25

[artful]

violence is not an integral part of hip hop.

Hip hop comes in all shapes and sizes.

Give a listen to some Pharcyde, or some Beastie Boys----many many more.. but I'm not going through a whole list.

And yo, Eminem? pfft... Fuck that shit... Eminem's shit is PG compared to some old NWA shit... and they didn't as much flack for it....

Don't forget those kids that burnt down a house and blammed that shit on Bevis and Butthead...

A young mind can pervert anything to suit its needs... be it innocent, violent, whatever...

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A lot of hip hop is about self expression... hence if you used to steal shit.. you'll rap about that... you might rap about the time your friend got shot... the time you got a really nice piece of ass... or a story a friend told ya...

In some way shape or form hip hop is a reflection of the artist.. perhaps more so than in other sections of music..

Will Smith expresses himself in his hip hop music in a way that befits his personality...

Special Ed was on more of a fantasy tip...

I've heard some heavy metal songs that would make a sailor blush... incidentally hehe...

If it sounds good listen to it.... and educate your kids.... cause I don't wanna have to pistol whip some young buck who's trying to run his life based on some shit that he heard that was actually a sarcastic comment, that he took for fact.

Just some thoughts.

Peace

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<I'm a Fire-starter>

<Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee!!> <I got the glow, baby!!

Can ya feel it?!? Now back up and give me some dancin' room!!>

--- When the Artful speaks

[noiseboy]

Originally posted by artful:

violence is not an integral part of hip hop.

Hip hop comes in all shapes and sizes.

Just some thoughts.

Peace

i agree that not ALL hip-hop has roots in violence. . . but SOME hip-hop does. . . and a lot of it is popular. . . eminem, NWA, B.I.G., TuPac, Geto Boyz. . . let's face it, gangster rap is a MAJOR face of hip-hop who have strong ties to violence. . .

i mean, i remember hearing KRS-One when i was a kid and learning something from it, but i also remember the first time i heard Too $hort and Snoop and being blown away by some of their shit. . .

even Snoop said that he didn't think there'd ever be a rap concert without some sort of act of violence being present. . .

now i agree there doesn't HAVE to be violence in hip-hop, but you have to admit that there is, and it is sometimes very integral to the style of music. . .

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HARDCORE. . . ya better ask somebody!!

[schwingep]

In an interview with Snoop, same question...he responded that there will always be some kind of violence in the hip-hop community

- Pete

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Upcoming Shows: Breffini Bar Sat Night...oops it got cancelled

My new web site...Version 1.02

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[stacychase]

what about the Will Smith DJ Jazzy Jeff days? R. Kelly considers himself an R & B artist and i do not see him expressing himself thru violence. Heavy D? i guess my point that there are many artists that put themselves into the R & B category, however do not promote the violence. not slamming gangsta rap (it was all i used to like) however i am just saying a few small facts. go way back late 70's early 80's, the music was out than and not always violent.

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Life can only be understood backward, but it must be lived forward.

[blueskygirl]

Originally posted by shadowchaser:

If you took you out the violence, useless anger, drugs, money, hoes, bitches, gang references, down with whitey references out of hip hop music...what do you have?

'Kriss Kross make ya wanna...jump jump..."

Good topic Mikey, and I feel I must go along with Shadowchaser here. Tho Artful makes a point about The Beasties, etc., I don't think they are indicative of most Hip-Hop, from what I've seen.

Wow, a CNYC thread with a thought provoking AND clubbing-related topic! What a novelty!! It may be the first ever...

Hugs,

BSG

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Just saying no to drama.

blueskygirl@djcentral.com

aolim blueskygirl2001

[artful]

How about this one----- gimmie a music category that has NO violence what so ever...

Music is an expression of human emotion. Violence, love, regret, et cetera....

It's all in there... just like Ragu.

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Most of us grew up watching Bugs Bunny and the Coyote trying to get the Roadrunner and stuff...

The world's a scary place. Ever watch those nature shows? SCARY... violence all over the damn place....

If you find yourself all stressed out and about to strangle granny....

I'd go with sound deprevation.

hehe

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<I'm a Fire-starter>

<Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee!!> <I got the glow, baby!!

Can ya feel it?!? Now back up and give me some dancin' room!!>

--- When the Artful speaks

[Dolly Dagger]

Run DMC were rapping about slapping chicks 15 years ago.

"Cool chief rapper, I see a girl I tap her

Then I take her on the floor, she don't dance, I slap her

The girl starts to cry and the crowd asks me why

If Run says "dance" you do or die"

But that was real rap. Not the crap rap that's out now.

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SICKTRACKS.COM

[a691vcc]

Who R the best 2 rapperz eva? wuz violence an intricate part of their lives?Did their passing have anything to do with the state of hip-hop today?

[fou]

Music to me is an expression, it takes the on its surroundings. So yes today it is filled with violence. Remember what sells the best also. sex, drugs, distruction.

just my 2cents

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[k_car]

Originally posted by shadowchaser:

If you took you out the violence, useless anger, drugs, money, hoes, bitches, gang references, down with whitey references out of hip hop music...what do you have?

'Kriss Kross make ya wanna...jump jump..."

LOL!!! Now, that was funny!

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"Strangers are just friends waiting to happen." - Old Sage Twilo

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[grepanelli]

I myself am an avid hip-hop fan as well as a writer and a lyricist. I tend to do a little production as well. However, in regards to hip-hop being directly linked to violence, sex, money and drugs, this is far from true.

Hip-hop, in itself, is a culture. However in every culture there are various sectors and divisions. Take Pop/Rock for instance. There is soft rock, easy listening and then just i guess, regular rock. Each having it's own characteristic to define the meaning or it's specific outlook on the culture.

Hip-hop however, did not evolve upon the basis of violence, sex, money or drugs. While these seem to be prevelant issues within the hip-hop industry, a lot of people, such as myself, overlook such as "real" hip-hop. Hip-hop is more defined as an influential type of music which speaks your mind, while uplifting and teaching, or making you dance. A lot of rappers however, have become "commercial" or "mainstream" therefore allowing the everyday negative facets of life influence their music. Enimem, while he is quite a superb LYRICIST, tends to lack in certain categories of influential hip-hop.

"Real" hip-hop can be seen in the likes of others. Take for instance, Common, Talib Kwali, Mos Def, De La Soul or Pharoah Monch or Tribe Called Quest. Listen to THEIR lyrics. Hip hop is not about drugs money, sex or violence.

Take note of the more influential rappers, rather than the more mainstream or commercial rappers and you'll realize what hip-hop is really about, which is beats, rhymes and enjoying life. Most rappers while they speak of hard times, should provide a positive outlook on the outcome of their success and uplift others with their music. While I buy a variety of music for versatility, these still remain my favorites and retain most rotation in my CD player. And while Gangsta and Thug Rap has taken over a dominantly large portion of the mainstream industry, underground hip-hop still proves to be the most audio-worthy to play. You just have to keep your eyes peeled.

Suggested Listening:

THE ROOTS - THINGS FALL APART. . . . .

COMMON - LIKE WATER FOR CHOCOLATE

PHAROAH MONCH

DE LA SOUL - ANY OF THEIR CD'S

Get in tune with some real hip hop music.

Gre'

TRIBE CALLED QUEST - ANY OF THEIR CD'S

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"Same shyt different day"

"Uhm. . . Whaddaya mean you're to tired to go tonight?. . .

Grepanelli for SexOnThaWkEnds Entatainment Inc.

AIM - Gre1P

[schwingep]

Well just look what happened at Cheetah last night...it's a horrible thing.

- Pete

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Upcoming Shows: Breffini Bar Sat Night...oops it got cancelled

My new web site...Version 1.02

http://www.naked-edge.com/schwinge.html

DJSchwinge@naked-edge.com

[fou]

Originally posted by schwingep:

Well just look what happened at Cheetah last night...it's a horrible thing.

- Pete

No question, what really sucks it just makes it hotter for everyone going out in NYC.

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[jammy]

Pete that was wrong ...No one said nothing about hip-hop in the story...That is messed up...Bad labeling...

~*Jam*~

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Email: ynicholas@aol.com

AIM: ynicholas

[edge420]

excellent thread guys (and gals). don't have too much to add, but when i think of hip-hop the first groups that come to mind are Tribe Called Quest and De La Soul, two groups which had relatively little to do with promoting violence or anger. in fact their message seemed to me to be mostly about making it in the music industry ("the Business") or finding some "betties" LOL. just my .02. good to see some intelligent dialogue without drama. excellent comment btw shadowchaser, and some good points there too a691vcc and grepanelli.

peace!

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[schwingep]

Originally posted by jammy:

Pete that was wrong ...No one said nothing about hip-hop in the story...That is messed up...Bad labeling...

~*Jam*~

What do you mean? Wed nights at Cheetah is a hip/hop R&B party

- Pete

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Upcoming Shows: Breffini Bar Sat Night...oops it got cancelled

My new web site...Version 1.02

http://www.naked-edge.com/schwinge.html

DJSchwinge@naked-edge.com

[jammy]

But violence IMHO can happen anywhere and just b/c of the "type" of music that is playing somewhere (or none at all)...Its like saying if something violent happens in NYC, someone mid-west say...Wow NYC is so dangerous and totally put the label on it. But nevermind my rantings, I see what you are saying but what if that happened outside of Liquids...I didn't hear anyone say that the assailants came from Cheetah, went to Cheetah, or had anything to do with Cheetah...And besides if it were from ppl that had some association to Cheetah, does that automatically mean b/c they played Jay Z that night that it was over hip-hop? Or some hip-hop song sparked it? So basically you are saying there is not a lot of violence associated with any other type of venue...Oh wait, just because guns were involved blame it on hip-hop and hip-hop alone...And trust me I would feel the same way if it were a shootout at a country-club (not that I listen to country or anything ) GO SHANIA...ooops, sorry

~*Jam*~

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Email: ynicholas@aol.com

AIM: ynicholas

[grepanelli]

very very nice rebuttal and I'm sure the point was well taken.

Like with anything, music should not be confused with reality. While music at times, does coincide with reality itself, entertainment is exactly what it is. . . . . entertainment. Therefore music, should not be confused with your everyday life. And it is up to parents to educate their children regarding this matter.

In regards to hip hop suggesting these actions, I repeat. . . do not confuse entertainment with reality. In regards to the shooting at Cheetahs, you cannot blaim music for the actions of the clubgoers for one simple reason. . . . Everyone in the club were adults. They know better and are responsible for their actions as are we.

I'm sure that if any of us stole something or hit someone and music just happened to be on, we wouldn't blame it on the music, so why do it in this instance? Music is influential. . I won't doubt that. . but only to a degree. . . it can't force someone to do something that they weren't already planning or thinking about doing. Regardless of the music, the final decision relies on the person themself.

Children are possibly easily influenced by music. Not adults. So therefore the shooting can not be blamed on music.

Plus, do you even know what type of music was playing when the shooting occurred? What if it was some "lovey dovey" R&B or hip hop talking about sex or partying, would you still say that it influenced the shooting? I think not.

Please. . . don't blame hip-hop. . or any other music for that matter, for the actions of a person. Like I said, each person is responsible for their own actions.

Gre'

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"Same shyt different day"

"Uhm. . . Whaddaya mean you're to tired to go tonight?. . .

Grepanelli for SexOnThaWkEnds Entatainment Inc.

AIM - Gre1P

[schwingep]

Jammy....a little long

I agree with you about the violence can happen anywhere. I wasn't labeling anything...The topic was about hip-hop and violence...it just so happened that there was an unfortunate incident at Cheetah last night...I wasn't using it to back the issue that violence only occurs at hip hop parties, I was just saying that while we were discussing this, the incident occurred.

As for Liquids...the last 3 weeks there have been scuffles there...A trance party with fights breaking out...Now without pointing any fingers or generalizing...one of the fights there involved hip hop people...I know this for a fact cause one guy that was involved in the fight came up to me while I was spinning asking if he could rap over the top of one the tracks...then he asked if we could play hip hop...

I'm not trying to say that hip hop equals fighting and shooting, but let's look at history for a moment...we hear about more incidents at hip hop parties...Madison Square Garden even for a time banned hip hop shows. And yes hip hop became to the forefront of the music industry in the past few years as the number 1 type of music being sold. And therefore when something is on top the media is going to expose it as much as possible, and that's what we hear and see.

But besides Hip Hop, it goes for any style of music...Lets look at Woodstock and how they say Limp Biskit initiated the chaos there...Violence with music is not a black/white/yellow/green/blue thing...it's a music thing and it seems that certain types of music bring out an aggression in people no matter what the style.

Rock and roll in anytown, USA can bring out a fight in people...Techno at a rave can do the same...and especially classical music...So many riot have broken out after performances of many pieces of music that we consider to be some of the finest symphonic arrangements in music.

Stravisnky's Firebird Suite (1912) i believe or (1919)...after the performance a full riot insued because people didn't understand the "new" type of music and ballet that was just displayed...So it's not just hip hop, it's not just a specific venue...it just how people can't behave in certain enivironments.

- Pete

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------------------------

Upcoming Shows: Breffini Bar Sat Night...oops it got cancelled

My new web site...Version 1.02

http://www.naked-edge.com/schwinge.html

DJSchwinge@naked-edge.com