The newest oppressed race??

[cathyo]

NO DRAMA!! I just want to tell a story 'cause I think it is wrong. This is a couple I know.

The cast...

A young couple in their late 20's, two daughters, ages 1 1/2 and 4.

The setting...

Husband recently laid off due to cutbacks (he's a computer something-or-other). The firm was small, so the severance was not much. Wife, homemaker, only because the cost of fulltime daycare for 2 young kids is more than she would bring home.

The plot...

Hubby gets an interview at a company after 3 weeks of endless worrying about how to feed and shelter his family. At the interview, the boss is VERY impressed. Even tells him at the end that he is the most qualified candidate they've had thus far and to be expecting a call in a few days!

Young husband and wife are so relieved! They tell friends and family there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

Two days pass and the call comes...it wasn't the orginal guy from the interview...he didn't get the job.

Finally after voice mails a plenty, the husband gets ahold of the original guy. After beating around the bush, the employer tells him, not in so many words, that the company needed to be more diverse. He says, you understand. From a contact in the company the husband finds out that the job was given to female African American. I'm not saying that she couldn't do the job just as well but, the guy actually came out and told him it was because of her gender and ethnicity!

Like I said, no drama but, I feel that this whole situation is incredibly unfair. This guy has a wife and two kids and no income...unemployment will barely cover food let alone rent. The job market BLOWS right now and they have no idea what to do.

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~*~*~Don't use time or words carelessly, neither can be retrieved.~*~*~

[majesticmelodi]

i know what your sayin... qualifications should get u the job.. not meeting diversity needs... its kinda sad sometimes... but its corporate america.. sux

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"that pigeon is standing there like a f*ckin asshole!"

"i am mo jo jo jo!!"

"Maybe some women aren't meant to be tamed. Maybe they need to run free until they find someone just as wild to run with."

AIM---> PrncssVrnc

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[manmademan]

valid point .. but what race was he from??? I`m guessing u`r referring to the whites ... But u know wat, this reminds me of what Michael Moore said once...

If whites in America are in fact so oppressed, then would u for a minute trade places, with say, the blacks .... simply for the "privileges U might then gain"

Answer if u care enough.

I don`t, cuz once I`m done with my education, I`m outta this Brave New World... don`t wanna be known as Alpha Plus all my life.

[nessalove]

Not only is this an issue in the job market, but in the application process for colleges as well. The quota system that's in place in these institutions deprives the companies and schools of looking objectively at qualifications to determine the best applicant, and it deprives skilled workers of eligibility for certain positions. It's essentially reverse-discrimination... and that promotes inequality just as much as classic discrimination. Besides, isn't it nicer to have landed a job or been accepted to a college because of your merits and not your race or gender? Believe me, I'm the furthest thing from a bigot, and am an absolute promoter of equal rights and equal opportunities, which is why I believe that these quota laws are absolutely hypocritical and a step backwards for the equality cause in general.

[manmademan]

that may be true .. but have u ever considered some statistics? Do u know that only 1 % of the world`s population can get a college education?? Do U know that the mean income of the world is $ 2 a day???

Equal opportunity .. yes ok, once U begin to realize how privileged U actually are, maybe u`d take a somewhat differentiated stand on "Equal Opportunity."

maybe then, u would not wanna trade places with these so-called "privileged as a result of backwards racism" races.

Look, I don`t care either way, put me in an equal position with anyone else, and I`m pretty confident I`ll come out somewhere on top.... I don`t like to have to say this, but I`m easily amongst the smartest top few percentage of the world, and I know that I`m one of the smartest ppl in my school, which is a pretty good school .. so yea, u wanna compete from equal positions, I`m all for it, cuz I`ll run most ppl into the ground anyway .... but if u have to talk abt equal opportunity, first get your facts right. In other words, start with a clean slate, and ensure everyone gets it to begin with. Or else, don`t complain.

[playboychick]

Originally posted by manmademan:

that may be true .. but have u ever considered some statistics? Do u know that only 1 % of the world`s population can get a college education?? Do U know that the mean income of the world is $ 2 a day???

Equal opportunity .. yes ok, once U begin to realize how privileged U actually are, maybe u`d take a somewhat differentiated stand on "Equal Opportunity."

maybe then, u would not wanna trade places with these so-called "privileged as a result of backwards racism" races.

.... but if u have to talk abt equal opportunity, first get your facts right. In other words, start with a clean slate, and ensure everyone gets it to begin with. Or else, don`t complain.

I believe Cathyo was referring to Equal Rights within the United States, not the world. If you're going to take a world stance, the majority of the people in the United States, not matter what race, are "privileged".

Affirmative Action was imposed by the United States' government to try and break a cycle within our society. We (the U.S.) can't influence another race's economic status if it is effected by another government. Example: countries within Africa, South America, and Asia.

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[manmademan]

playboychick, my statistics refer to the world, that`s true enough, but the "privileged as a result of backward racism" classes I referred to are very much american. Statistics such as the ones I gave have correspondingly similar ones that refer specifically to only the US, though they are not as pronounced as those others for obvious reasons. But, they do exist.

[glowsticks]

Thats harsh....thats why im gonna become a professional glowsticker

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Do you Fuck as well as you Dance???

AOLIMER: glowsticks8

EMAIL: nickantivachis@netzero.net

[This message has been edited by glowsticks (edited 04-03-2001).]

[deanna11]

nessalove, true about universities. for entrance into most top universities, asians are at a disadvantage because of the relatively large asian student populations compared to the general population

Originally posted by manmademan:

that may be true .. but have u ever considered some statistics? Do u know that only 1 % of the world`s population can get a college education?? Do U know that the mean income of the world is $ 2 a day???

Equal opportunity .. yes ok, once U begin to realize how privileged U actually are, maybe u`d take a somewhat differentiated stand on "Equal Opportunity."

most of the world doesn't NEED a college education, and especially not to make their less-than-$2/day. you can barely compare the harsh realities of a corporate interviewee in the US with someone dying of four different ailnesses before reaching puberty. and you know, i don't think you have to all the time. the issue we're speaking of here is not equal opportunity in a world-wide scale, but equal oportunity in the job market in OUR (rich american) world. social responsibility to the hungry has nothing to do with this

maybe then, u would not wanna trade places with these so-called "privileged as a result of backwards racism" races.

Look, I don`t care either way, put me in an equal position with anyone else, and I`m pretty confident I`ll come out somewhere on top.... I don`t like to have to say this, but I`m easily amongst the smartest top few percentage of the world, and I know that I`m one of the smartest ppl in my school, which is a pretty good school .. so yea, u wanna compete from equal positions, I`m all for it, cuz I`ll run most ppl into the ground anyway .... but if u have to talk abt equal opportunity, first get your facts right. In other words, start with a clean slate, and ensure everyone gets it to begin with. Or else, don`t complain.

i'm glad you're able to say things you don't want to. if you remember your statistics, it shouldn't be too hard to be in the top percentiles for intelligence. what school do you go to? you must be pretty smart if you can broaden any issue to include irrelevent points just to use within your argument

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Please

Leave me

Ur

Rock

[manmademan]

Deanna, maybe U didn`t read my latter post.

I was making a point by moving from the general to the specific.

I used those statistics simply as a means to making a larger point that such inequalities are, in fact, rampant in the United States as well. I do not have similar stats for the US, and therefore did not post them. One would simply assume here that people get the point, but apparently, thinking out of the box is a near certain impossibility for some. Admittedly, I used a broader context to try and make a point on america, but that was for lack of information rather than anything else.

I was particularly careful in fact to put myself in the top few percent, though I had already foreseen the possibility of someone pointing out what U have ... I just did not want to sound smug by saying I belong to say, the top 0.01 % of the world`s population, in terms of intelligence.

As for your remarks on my being "pretty smart", albeit with a hint of sarcasm, I was not attacking any person when I posted my previous messages. I was attacking a point, and what U did was totally unnecessary.

[deanna11]

if you have to point out your good points, some people may think it's because they're going unrecognized

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better to reign in hell than serve in heaven

[blueangel]

When this whole reverse discrimination came out in schools in the 80's (I believe) I (as an ASIAN FEMALE) was a bit concerned. Because now the students are not competing with one another with no regard to race but the government is saying they can only compete with one another if it's the same race? Also, another message that this reverse discrimination in the work force is sending out is that to be from a minority race is like being a handicap . . . that you will receive better and special treatment. That's BULLSHIT!

My younger sister who went to a high school with 5,000 kids graduated top 2 in her class. She had applied for many schools including Princeton. She didn't get into Princeton (her dream school) but got accepted by other universities such as John Hopkins and Yale. She didn't get into Princeton because she was competing with other asian kids . . . because they only allow certain percentage of asian students every year.

In my opinion, survival should be about how srong and intelligent you are. I TOTALLY understand why they put reverse discrimination in place. Growing up in Missouri and being the only asian kid in my school . . . I know what racist means. However, I wouldn't want anyone to tell my children that they have to compete with only their own kind NOR do I want anyone to tell them that being asian is an advantage in the work force cause they'll see your skin first to meet their quota. It's not right.

BlueAngel

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"Be as you wish to seem." — Socrates

[blueguy808]

While I absolutely don't consider myself or anyone I know a "victim" of reverse discrimination, I have witnessed it. While in the NAVY which prides itself on being an "equal opportunity employer", I witnessed white males being passed up for promotion, even though the test and their performance reviews were better, so that a black man or woman, or just a woman of another race could be promoted to show diversity in the higher ranks. Also, having served in the NAVY, forced to work along side people of various race/gender mixes, I now feel that "equal opportunity" is a bunch of BS. The physical standards in the NAVY, which are low to begin with, have been lowered even more to allow this diversity. Women, for example, are held to a lower physical standard then men. The problem with this is that we are all required to do the same physical work. On a racial level, the height/weight standards across the board have dropped to allow more people of typically shorter races (i.e. hispanic and asian). You can also this evident in the NYPD.

I know I may have come off sounding racist, and I'm sorry if anyone is offended by anything I've said. Not sorry about saying it, because it is what I feel, and I know that I am not a racist/sexist in any way. On a slightly related note, I saw something that bothered me the other day. On the train there were 6 people sitting in those 6 seats at the end of the car, 5 women and 1 man. A pregnant lady gets on, and the only one that even thought to give up their seat was the man. All of these women seemed relatively healthy, and the pregnant woman didn't accept this mans offer of a seat. Women complain about the loss of chivalry, but what about just being thoughtful?

Anyway...just some thoughts, sorry for rambling.

Peace,

-=J=-

.:808:.

[translucent]

While I'm not taking sides on the issue, one major point that is overlooked here is that the whole intent of "Equal Opportunity" is to balance the equation on a macro level. The government isn't as concerned with how unfairly Johnny is treated by corporate America as with the bottom line. The government just looks at the numbers and comes up with the quickest and most direct approach to fixing them. Changing the social, economic and financial cycles that are actually THE reasons why the ratio is so skewed would take a shitload of time and effort. Americans as a whole lack the patience to attempt long term solutions and prefer politicians promising quick fixes.

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[mysteriousss]

I think when it comes to college applications, they should NOT even ask for your ethnicity/gender.. It's not fair to admit ppl based on the quotas.. It's degrading to them also IMO because I wouldn't want to be given something just because I'm a girl.. I want to get it (a job, into college or whatever) based on my intelligence and skills..

Affirmative action IMO FORCES colleges and companies discriminate based on gender/race.. Isn't that what this law was trying to restrict?

[kitty19]

Originally posted by cathyo:

From a contact in the company the husband finds out that the job was given to female African American. I'm not saying that she couldn't do the job just as well but, the guy actually came out and told him it was because of her gender and ethnicity!

another thing to think about, generally speaking, is that caucasians/asian americans tend to get more training, preparation, and education than most other races. which, obviously, puts them "ahead of the game".

is it not true that causasians/asians can afford to take SAT preparation classes, preparation classes to get into Stuy/Bronx Science/Tech, GMAT/MCAT/LSAT classes, etc? isn't the schooling better in suburbia, where the majority of inhabitants are causasian? the schooling in areas such as the south bronx are horrific, where a HS graduate usually reads at an elementary school level.

so, if an employer/school sees potential in a minority race, such as an african-american/hispanic/native american person, but they don't necessarily have the top scores like the rest of their competition, are they less competent?

i believe that's what schools and companies should take into consideration. some of the most intelligent people i know don't go to school or have a brand name college degree. they couldn't afford the extra preparation, but by no means does that make them less qualified.

you don't know what/where that african-american woman has been through. so don't underestimate her just b/c you thought your friend was "more qualified".

cathyo, in no means am i downplaying what happened to your friend, it stinks to hear that the state of the economy are affecting a lot of people we know-- good luck to him and his family.. i just wanted to bring up another point. cool?

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*kitty19*

*turn it around baby*

[This message has been edited by kitty19 (edited 04-03-2001).]

[blueguy808]

Originally posted by kitty19:

another thing to think about, generally speaking, is that caucasians/asian americans tend to get more training, preparation, and education than most other races. which, obviously, puts them "ahead of the game".

is it not true that causasians/asians can afford to take SAT preparation classes, preparation classes to get into Stuy/Bronx Science/Tech, GMAT/MCAT/LSAT classes, etc?

i just wanted to bring up another point. cool?

It is not true that caucasians/asians can afford these classes. My family didn't make any more money thananyone else just because we were white. I grew up very poor, and very white. Didn't get to go to College because of the money issue. I took the opportunity to join the NAVY. I am now more successful than my parents probably ever will be, and no thanks at all to my being white.

Race does not necessarily give you the benefits that some are familiar with.

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Peace,

-=808=-

.:J:.

[tastyt]

Originally posted by blueguy808:

It is not true that caucasians/asians can afford these classes. My family didn't make any more money thananyone else just because we were white. I grew up very poor, and very white. Didn't get to go to College because of the money issue. I took the opportunity to join the NAVY. I am now more successful than my parents probably ever will be, and no thanks at all to my being white.

Race does not necessarily give you the benefits that some are familiar with.

While it's true that anyone can beat the statistics, you just might be the exception that proves the rule. I just finished reading this great book about Berkeley HS, it followed 3 students through their senior year (which was last year) and looked at the different issues they each faced based on their race, economic standing, etc.

One of the main points made in the book is that the NUMBER ONE determining factor in a child's grades/ standardized test scores, was their economic standing. Being that blacks and hispanics are so disproportionately represented among the underpriveleged, they tended to score in the lowest percentiles across the board.

There are so many things that most of us take for granted, things so seemingly insignificant as our parents reading us bedtime stories or teaching us the alphabet before we go to kindergarten. It's horrifying to learn that there are children that don't even get these basics. Their parents may work two or three jobs just to survive, and are too exhausted at the end of the day to pay much attention to their children.

Of course quotas and affirmative action are not the answer. What we really need is sweeping social reform. Too bad that's not going to happen anytime soon. It's really not so bad if we let students into colleges whose grades may be considered sub-par, because they may not have had the same opportunities as kids who were sent to the best private schools, could spend the money on test prep, etc.

Anyway I hope I didn't ramble on too much. Discrimination sucks, be it "reverse" or not. Unfortunately our power structure sucks too so for now it may be the best answer.

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I never try anything, I just do it... Wanna try me?

[blueguy808]

Originally posted by tastyt:

While it's true that anyone can beat the statistics, you just might be the exception that proves the rule. I just finished reading this great book about Berkeley HS, it followed 3 students through their senior year (which was last year) and looked at the different issues they each faced based on their race, economic standing, etc.

One of the main points made in the book is that the NUMBER ONE determining factor in a child's grades/ standardized test scores, was their economic standing. Being that blacks and hispanics are so disproportionately represented among the underpriveleged, they tended to score in the lowest percentiles across the board.

There are so many things that most of us take for granted, things so seemingly insignificant as our parents reading us bedtime stories or teaching us the alphabet before we go to kindergarten. It's horrifying to learn that there are children that don't even get these basics. Their parents may work two or three jobs just to survive, and are too exhausted at the end of the day to pay much attention to their children.

Of course quotas and affirmative action are not the answer. What we really need is sweeping social reform. Too bad that's not going to happen anytime soon. It's really not so bad if we let students into colleges whose grades may be considered sub-par, because they may not have had the same opportunities as kids who were sent to the best private schools, could spend the money on test prep, etc.

Anyway I hope I didn't ramble on too much. Discrimination sucks, be it "reverse" or not. Unfortunately our power structure sucks too so for now it may be the best answer.

I fully agree with you on all points including that I am the exception.

Peace,

-=J=-

.:808:.

[gambitx73]

God works in mysterious ways. Perhaps this opportunity wasn't available to him so another which might be better will present itself to him.

He who lives by the law shall judge by law. He whol lives by faith shall judge by faith.

Let us all pray for this individual and hope he gets a real nice job.

[boa_boy]

Originally posted by divalicious:

As an African American Woman, I must respond.

While "reverse discrimination" may be wrong and incite feelings of anger, the fact still remains that a white man has more oppportunities available to him, and will receive a higher salary, than I do. Because he is a man, and because he is white. And that is wrong, and makes me quite angry.

I'm not an advocate of giving jobs to unqualified people just because of their race, but I think that affirmative action does have some merit. It forces employers to give others a chance, when they normally would not have. One way I think of it is... The teacher who always calls on the smart kid, passing over the not-so-smart kids. (I've seen this happen all through my schooling.) The principal steps in and makes the teacher realize the problem. The other kids, while they have the potential to be just as smart, are being neglected and overlooked. But once the teacher starts to engage them, their potential can start to be realized.

I know that at some point in my work history, I've gotten a job because I am a "double minority", but I could not have kept that job without the ability to do the job.

Divalicious & TastyT & to an extent Kitty19 are on point, on this type of issue I personally have an interesting perspective...being the only white and the only male where I work, with the president and my immediate supervisor being successful African American women.....but more pertinently I also have to confront these issues being a recruiter. In considering candidates for a job it is illegal for me to NOT consider someone because of race/sex/age/sexual identity, I can not make mention of a candidate being 'older' in hand written notes OR on our database, all of these things can be subpoened in a law suit. Anecdotally examples like Cathyo's are discussed around water coolers, and take on a life of their own...someone may have noted that the successful candidate was black and ASSUMES she got the job because she was black, whereas in actual fact she may have been the better candidate by a whisker. Who knows I surely don't!?!?

Cathyo feel free to email me @ boa_boy@yahoo.com, as an IT recruiter maybe I can help your friend out, the job market certainly is tighter but believe you me there are still a lot of jobs out there.

Today was the third in an excellent series in the Times about Race and the NYPD, examples like (from memory) an african american male who in his military career was promoted several times, yet in 13 years in the NYPD has yet to make the rank of seargeant, a key reason being their use of standardised test for advancement...how on earth can a standardised test (multiple choice) tell me you're a good/bad police officer.......or the plum special assingments were there is a squad of 110 and there are 2 (count 'em) black men...anyways some good reading there if you're interested...........well Iif you couldn't guess I could go on about this all day but back to work for me

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If only he'd use his power for good instead of evil............... boa_boy@yahoo.com

[This message has been edited by boa_boy (edited 04-03-2001).]

[cathyo]

Originally posted by divalicious:

The teacher who always calls on the smart kid, passing over the not-so-smart kids. (I've seen this happen all through my schooling.) The principal steps in and makes the teacher realize the problem. The other kids, while they have the potential to be just as smart, are being neglected and overlooked. But once the teacher starts to engage them, their potential can start to be realized.

I know that at some point in my work history, I've gotten a job because I am a "double minority", but I could not have kept that job without the ability to do the job.

Excellent points!

I do understand the need to have laws like this in place to effect an overall change, unfortunately, as with most things, someone has to pay the price for the better good.

boaboy, thank you so much for the offer. I'm not sure exactly what area he is involved in but I will let him know about you!

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~*~*~Don't use time or words carelessly, neither can be retrieved.~*~*~

[rparadox]

It's too bad that laws like this exist, but they are neccessary. There are still some employers out there that, if these laws didn't exist, wouldn't give anyone from another race a second look for a job opportunity.

A lot of African American and Hispanic kids grow up in inner cities, and are faced with substandard schools as well as a lack of libraries and other recreational activities. What you end up with is a number of otherwise smart kids or young adults who have never been given an opportunity to excel.

It's say that someone's underqualified for a job or college, when you base the criteria on a power rating of a substandard school, etc. I Grew up and went to school in North Philadelphia, and played high school and college basketball. Even with my bachelor’s degree, at every job that I applied for in Philly, I was always less qualified than the other candidates because my high school and college weren’t as "good" as theirs, regardless if I was better equipped to do the job or not. Now I get rave reviews at my job up here (in CT) doing work that’s at least 2-3 times more difficult than anything I would have done in Philly.

Opportunity means a lot, doesn’t it?

(Sorry, more like a personal rant against all of the HR people that looked at me as if I were dumb as a rock, when I knew I was most likely smarter than they were)

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Fuck a signature...

[crobra]

What I find funny is some people proclaiming themselves the smartest people in their schools or the world. I believe Socrates said something about people who thought they were smarter than everyone else!! Wise person knows he/she knows nothing - the fool thinks they know everything!! Little more respect should be shown to our fellow classmates or co-workers!!

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WALK WITH ME THROUGH THE UNIVERSE AND ALONG THE WAY SEE HOW ALL OF US ARE CONNECTED - FEAST THE EYES OF YOUR SOUL ON NO LOVE THAT IT BOUNDS ON ALL PLACES AT ONCE - SEEMINGLY ENDLESS - LIKE YOUR OWN EXISTENCE!!

WE ARE ALL CONNECTED!!

[exit2heaven]

Originally posted by glowsticks:

Thats harsh....thats why im gonna become a professional glowsticker

Oh sheeet...u mean u not a pro?????

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Ravers don't stumble

and fall....

we TRIP and ROLL..

AIM: XxFUEL1xX