How Muslim Countries View America

[kramadas]

Originally posted by dusted

When I say crush them, I am not referring to genocide. I am talking about Israel using their military might to bring them to their knees, so that they give up their idea of destroying Israel.

Your problem is that you refuse to see that that is what the ultimate goal is, to destroy Israel.

What do you think would happen to Israel if they let all these Palestinian refugees back in and reverted to the pre 67 borders. Be honest now. Do you REALLY think everything would be all nice again?

So, you're saying crush them, on the ASSUMPTION that if Israel withdrew from the illegally occupied land and reverted back to old borders, that Palestinians wouldn't stop there? So, in your opinion Israeli occupation is the answer?

[breaksny]

U can't accuse someone advocating palestinian rights of anti-semitism. Palestinians and all Arabs are semites. I suppose it would be more accurate to say it's only one definition of the word. The person is more probably anti-zionist like myself, which is a far cry from anti-semitism or anti-judaism. Oooh closing in on 300 posts.

[dusted]

Originally posted by raver_mania

So, you're saying crush them, on the ASSUMPTION that if Israel withdrew from the illegally occupied land and reverted back to old borders, that Palestinians wouldn't stop there? So, in your opinion Israeli occupation is the answer?

Of course they wouldn't stop there. You're forgetting about the demands for the right of return, which would be suicide for Israel, to let in 4 million sworn enemies of Israel.

Secondly, the West Bank has been used by neighboring Arab countries repeatedly to attack Israel, which is how they came to control it.

Now are you saying that if Israel withdraws to 67 borders and agrees to let these 4 million Palestinians back in, there will be no more problems? Where are these 4 million descendents of the original refugees going to live?

You can't possibly be that naive.

[malone]

"So, you're saying crush them, on the ASSUMPTION that if Israel withdrew from the illegally occupied land and reverted back to old borders, that Palestinians wouldn't stop there? So, in your opinion Israeli occupation is the answer?"

This can not accurately be described as an "assumption", as the stated goal of the various Palestian representatives has always been and continues to be, a return of the refugees to Israel. This, were it to be accepted, would amount to the destruction of Israel for very obvious reasons. This point has been made by many posts and I don't know how often it has to be said. When the Palestinians make it clear that they have abandoned their dream of a return to Israel then that particular obstacle to progress in the region can be permanently removed from the table.

[dusted]

Originally posted by breaksny

U can't accuse someone advocating palestinian rights of anti-semitism. Palestinians and all Arabs are semites. I suppose it would be more accurate to say it's only one definition of the word. The person is more probably anti-zionist like myself, which is a far cry from anti-semitism or anti-judaism. Oooh closing in on 300 posts.

I think someone that tries to degrade their country by referring to it as "their precious little Israel" can certainly be described as a Jew hater, yes.

Maybe if the PA would behave they might get "their precious little Palestinian state"

Israel wouldn't be occupying their "precious little west bank" and "their precious little Gaza strip" if they hadn't kept repeatedly attacking Israel.

Or are you such a Jew hater that you think Israel likes being under seige?

[midiman]

Originally posted by dusted

Your comments reek of anti- Semitism.

But indulge me, what is your vision of this "precious little Israeli state"?

there we go back to that word.....never fails.

I am in fact a semite so try something else.

I have nothing against an Israeli state. A withdrawal from the occupied lands will end this. Arabs know that Israel isn't going anywhere. I just love it when you disagree with Israel's actions, you are labelled an anti-Semite.

[dusted]

And what about the right of return that they keep demanding?

[dusted]

Originally posted by midiman

there we go back to that word.....never fails.

I am in fact a semite so try something else.

I have nothing against an Israeli state. A withdrawal from the occupied lands will end this. Arabs know that Israel isn't going anywhere. I just love it when you disagree with Israel's actions, you are labelled an anti-Semite.

Why did you refer to it as "their precious little Israeli state"?

[breaksny]

Talking to you people is like talking to a wall, only you get more from a wall. At least if you bounce a ball off a wall it bounces back to you. You know what I have never seen on this board is anyone opposed to Israel's existence. No one. I have seen people who don't support Palestine's existence. The refugee issue, while I can comprehend Israelis fears about it threatening their security, isn't the obstacle you make it out to be since everyone involved in the negotiations knows the compromise is going to be financial compensation for the victims and their families of "the disaster," as Palestinians call it, and Israelis call "their war for independence." Most of these people will never return, everyone knows that. I don't have the solution as to who is gonna break this to the diaspora or when it will happen, but it will happen when final status negotiations finally do occur, @ this rate, probably decades from now. It seems to be another excuse the right wing has for keeping a Palestinian state from ever occurring. Thank god they won't be in office forever.

[dusted]

Originally posted by breaksny

Talking to you people is like talking to a wall, only you get more from a wall. At least if you bounce a ball off a wall it bounces back to you. You know what I have never seen on this board is anyone opposed to Israel's existence. No one. I have seen people who don't support Palestine's existence. The refugee issue, while I can comprehend Israelis fears about it threatening their security, isn't the obstacle you make it out to be since everyone involved in the negotiations knows the compromise is going to be financial compensation for the victims and their families of "the disaster," as Palestinians call it, and Israelis call "their war for independence." Most of these people will never return, everyone knows that. I don't have the solution as to who is gonna break this to the diaspora or when it will happen, but it will happen when final status negotiations finally do occur, @ this rate, probably decades from now. It seems to be another excuse the right wing has for keeping a Palestinian state from ever occurring. Thank god they won't be in office forever.

Why do they keep demanding the right of return?

And why do you presume to know that this really means "financial compensation"?

[malone]

"U can't accuse someone advocating palestinian rights of anti-semitism. Palestinians and all Arabs are semites. I suppose it would be more accurate to say it's only one definition of the word. The person is more probably anti-zionist like myself, which is a far cry from anti-semitism or anti-judaism. Oooh closing in on 300 posts."

To be an anti-zionist is, for all practical purposes, to be opposed to the existence of the state of Israel, is it not? To be opposed to the state of Israel, for all practical purposes, is mostly to deny that the Jewish people needed a seperate state to ensure their freedom from persecution in the world. It may well be that they didn't need a seperate state, but a look at their history doesn"t lend much credence to that notion.

[dusted]

Why do you think that Israel would care one way or another about a Palestinian State, unless that state was a threat to them?

[dusted]

To be an anti-zionist is, for all practical purposes, to be opposed to the existence of the state of Israel, is it not? To be opposed to the state of Israel, for all practical purposes, is mostly to deny that the Jewish people needed a seperate state to ensure their freedom from persecution in the world. It may well be that they didn't need a seperate state, but a look at their history doesn"t lend much credence to that notion.

----------------------

Which brings us back to what I've been saying all along.

[malone]

"Why do you think that Israel would care one way or another about a Palestinian State, unless that state was a threat to them?"

I don't imagine that Israel will ever permit an additional seperate

Arab state to emerge on it's borders without some serious copperfastened guarantees about it's own security. And history clearly shows that they have every grounds for such caution. The Arabs didn't exactly embrace the state of Israel. So I would think the region has got to work out some solution that does not jeopardise Israel.

[breaksny]

No it's not to be opposed to Israel's existence. More walls talking back to me. What a joke. LOL Opposition to Zionism can also mean, opposition to Israeli expansionism, namely occupation, annexation, or ethnic cleansing of the occupied territories, the full range of whose views are supported by a majority of members of the Israeli parliament. All those positions are racist to me, and to most of outside world, which supports Palestinian independence and their right to self determination. Everyone in the middle or on the left in this debate opposes that form of zionism. That's what the term means to alot of Palestinians, imperialism, and racism, or all different forms. It also means in practice 2nd class citizenship for Israel's Arab minority economically, politically, and culturally. My opposition to that, in no way illustrates I want Israel to go anywhere. It's a fact of life I don't really care if it's there or not, but it is and I'm glad Jews have a homeland. I just think the idea of Zionism is very akin to other forms of racism in it's physical and other dimensions when it so blatantly not only attacks non Jews, but in 1000s of cases, kills people. That's what the occupation is, and the philosophy behind it is state-sponsored violence. That's what I oppose.

And on this question of who the entire region is most holy too, I dunno who brought that up, but its ludicrous to suggest the holy city in particular is any more quanitfiably or qualitatively holy than to the either of the other 2 religions in question. Haram al-sharif is more used by Moslems than the other 2 groups in practical terms anyway, but that's besides the point. The whole region is pre-eminently sacred to everyone. That's why shared sovereignty, or else divine or interational sovereignty, is the only peaceful solution to the Jerusalem question.

And on the refugee compensation issue, that's been on the table since Oslo began. It's an inevitability. Arafat is even beginning to consider compromise on that issue himself. There was talk around the time of camp david of allowing a couple hundred thousand people to return, and the rest would get some sort of financial reimbursement for their losses. I dont know the details, but that seems inevitable for how that issue will be resolved. Israel (which probably will end up calling the shots as they have for the last decade or more) won't allow much more than that.

[dusted]

This is war. Why do you refer to casualties as ethnic cleansing? Are the palestinian suicide bombers also engaging in ethnic cleansing?

The definition of Zionist is to be for the creation of a jewish state. therefore, to be anti zionist is to be against it.

Now, in 1947, the UN wanted to divide Palestine into 2 separate states, one Jewish and one Palestinian, with Jerusalem being under international jurisdiction. Why didn't the Palestinians accept the plan?

[malone]

"No it's not to be opposed to Israel's existence. More walls talking back to me. What a joke. LOL Opposition to Zionism can also mean, opposition to Israeli expansionism, namely occupation, annexation, or ethnic cleansing of the occupied territories"

Thanking you for giving me your wonderful definition of "anti-zionism". Or was that "The Shadow" interpretation of the word. Alas, while you claim to accept Israeli existence you would negate their capacity to defend themselves, thus efectively ensuring their non-existence before too long. Which brings us back to my previous point.

[malone]

"Now, in 1947, the UN wanted to divide Palestine into 2 separate states, one Jewish and one Palestinian, with Jerusalem being under international jurisdiction. Why didn't the Palestinians accept the plan?"

Didn't you ask this same question several times yesterday, and didn't it elicit the same non-response over and over??

[breaksny]

No I refer to ethnic cleansing as the policy that parties like the late minister Zeevi's has of expelling all Palestinians from the territories. Maybe I didn't make myself clear. When I say a majority of the parliamentarians support either a continuation of the occupation, annexation, or ethnic cleansing, I mean that from the far right (including religious and secular parties) to a sizeable portion of the labor party on the left, a majority of Palestinians support a continued Israeli presence in the territories in one form or another.

[dusted]

Palestinians are a THREAT to Israeli security!

[malone]

"a majority of Palestinians support a continued Israeli presence in the territories."

Talk about not making yourself clear!!

[malone]

"Palestinians are a THREAT to Israeli security!"

Quite clearly so. No amount of fuddling or evasion will change this very important point until the Palestinians themselves explicitly deem it otherwise.

[breaksny]

I have no clue what you mean by shadow definition or that quote you pulled about palestinians supporting the occupation. I never said that. As far as your security comment, if that's not racist I dunno what is. By your logic, not only is Israel a threat to alot to Palestinian security but Israelis are as well. And in response to something you said before, I just don't agree with your definition of "self defense." Invasion and slaughter is aggression and war mongering, not to mention colonialism. Not self defense.

[malone]

"have no clue what you mean by shadow definition or that last comment, but whatever."

The shadow is a wee anarchist tabloid to be found in this wonderously diverse city of ours, and I must say I'm a little disappointed that you have not made it's acquaintance.

[breaksny]

Uhh ok.