How Muslim Countries View America

[dusted]

Originally posted by t0nythelover

i think israel has too much power. and i dont like the israelis going into refugee camps. thats terrorism too but no one calls it that.

I don't think you know one thing about this subject. Yours is a knee jerk liberal response.

[sassa]

Originally posted by t0nythelover

i think israel has too much power. and i dont like the israelis going into refugee camps. thats terrorism too but no one calls it that.

Israel recieved over 5 BILLION DOLLARS a year from the United States, mainly for military purposes...it sickens me to see the IDF using the latest technology against a people who could never even hope to even buy one tank to protect themselves with...does anyone else see the irony in this? Millions of people are dying every day from diseases that are preventable with just one vaccine, dying of hunger from lack of food that we in the US can easily give away and not think twice about, and living in the worst conditions one can possibly think of...yet we are giving so much money to a nation who has one of the most stablest economies in the region....to kill a people whose only crime is that they are from the same region. What kind of bullshit is this?

One thing that I cannot get over...and I believe breaksny has mentioned this...why cannot people discuss matters like this without getting personally offended??? Are you the ones involved with this issue? Unless you are Ariel Sharon or Yasser Arafat, I doubt it. I think criticism is healthy and helps people think about the status quo and perhaps better ways to conduct things...so for all the people who quickly take offense at such things...chill the hell out. I don't believe anyone is deliberately trying to personally attack someone for their opinions, but rather the ideas they present....

Back to my paper on Middle Eastern politics...you guys are giving me a lot to write about just from this thread....

[dusted]

http://cns.miis.edu/research/wmdme/

This is the link to a report on weapons of mass destruction in the middle east as reported by

Center for Nonproliferation Studies

Monterey Institute of International Studies

425 Van Buren Street, Monterey, CA 93940, USA

Telephone: +1 (831) 647-4154; Fax: +1 (831) 647-3519;

e-mail: cns@miis.edu; web: http://cns.miis.edu

I am truly amazed by the things you come out with.

[sassa]

Originally posted by dusted

http://cns.miis.edu/research/wmdme/

This is the link to a report on weapons of mass destruction in the middle east as reported by

Center for Nonproliferation Studies

Monterey Institute of International Studies

425 Van Buren Street, Monterey, CA 93940, USA

Telephone: +1 (831) 647-4154; Fax: +1 (831) 647-3519;

e-mail: cns@miis.edu; web: http://cns.miis.edu

I am truly amazed by the things you come out with.

How ironic!I am applying to this school for my MA....but in any case, tell me this, who has the most nuclear capabilities in the world?

[totallytrance]

OK well here's my story, a lot of people from my family are from Bosnia (Europe). During the war between Serbia and Bosnia, the US could've stopped the war but the US didn't because Serbians were killing a lot more Bosnians than the Bosnians killed Serbians. They believe that the US didn't stop the war because so many more Muslims were being murdered...So that's one reason that Muslims in Bosnia "hate" the US. I think in general though that all Muslims feel like the USA doesn't agree with Islam so of course they'd have a reason to hate the US. Anything the US does it's against Islam.

For Europeans thoughts about the US, I know from what I've heard that everyone kinda admires the US (Germany, Italy, etc.)

From my own experience, I think it's great that the USA lets in so many immigrants from diff. countries. But I def. disagree with the government and it's laws, as well as the life style.

[dusted]

You people buy into every piece of Arab propaganda.

It is not the United States job to feed the world. These countries are in the states they are in because of their corrupt leaders and their stupid ignorant way of life. This is also why they despise Israel, because of its success.

But anyway here you go:

04/30/2001

International Affairs Spending for Middle East, S. Asia

(Bush administration sends FY02 request to Congress)

By Phillip Kurata

Washington File Staff Writer

Washington -- A significant portion of President Bush's requested budget for International Affairs in fiscal year 2002 (FY02) has been designated for the Middle East and South Asia.

The State Department released documents in April that show the Bush administration has sent to Congress a request for $2,289 million for bilateral assistance programs in the Economic Support Fund (ESF). More than two thirds of that sum, $1,682 million, is intended for the Middle East, while $30 million has been earmarked for South Asia.

Israel, the largest recipient of U.S. aid, would receive $720 million, a drop of 14 percent from the current fiscal year. Egypt, the second largest target of U.S. aid, would see its ESF outlays drop five percent from the current fiscal year to $655 million. At the same time, Jordan, the second Arab country after Egypt to make peace with Israel, would see its ESF aid increase slightly to $150 million. Funding for Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza would be $75 million in FY02.

The Bush administration has targeted ten countries in the Middle East to receive $6.6 million from the $65 million requested for International Military Education and Training programs. The request for Algeria is $200,000; Bahrain, $259,000; Egypt, $1.2 million; Jordan, $1.8 million; Lebanon, $600,000; Morocco; $1 million; Oman, $275,000; Saudi Arabia, $25,000; Tunisia, $1 million; and Yemen, $250,000.

Five countries in South Asia have been designated to receive $1.8 million for military education and training. The administration recommends $525,000 for Bangladesh; $650,000 for India; $125,000 for Maldives; $225,000 for Nepal; and $275,000 for Sri Lanka. Middle Eastern countries account for more than 90 percent of the Foreign Military Financing budget item, which totals $3,674 million. Israel would receive $2,040 million; Egypt, $1,300 million; Jordan, $75 million; Morocco, $3.5 million; and Tunisia, $3.5 million. No countries in South Asia have been designated to receive funding from that category.

Israeli Arab students and scholars have been designated to receive $375,000 from the Israeli Arab Scholarship Program. The program funds Arab citizens of Israel to study and conduct research in the United States.

Pakistan has been tabbed to receive $3.5 million from the funds designated for International Narcotics Control and Law Enforcement. The administration has requested $3 million for other anti-narcotics activities listed under the budget item, Counter-threat in Southwest Asia.

For migration and refugee assistance, the Bush administration has requested $102.5 million to support the Near East operations of the U.N. Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA). UNRWA provides education, medical assistance, vocational training, relief and social services and small-scale income generation projects to about 3.6 million Palestinian refugees. The administration has requested $60 million to help refugees settle in Israel.

The administration has requested $35.5 million for refugee assistance in South Asia. Most of the money would be channeled to international organizations and non-governmental organizations providing humanitarian assistance to Afghan refugees, but some money would be used to help internally displaced people and repatriate people in Sri Lanka and refugees from Tibet and Bhutan.

The administration has contributed an additional $1 million in emergency refugee and migration assistance funds this year to meet urgent and unexpected needs of refugees from the Afghan crisis.

Total U.S. humanitarian aid to Afghans -- including emergency food, health, shelter, and education programs -- so far this year amounts to about $75 million. U.S. aid to Afghans this year is expected to exceed last year's total of over $113 million. The US remains the world's largest single donor of humanitarian aid to the Afghan people.

The Bush administration has requested more than $844 million to fund U.N. peacekeeping operations around the world. Six percent of those funds would be spent in the Middle East, notably the U.N. Disengagement Observer Force between Israeli and Syrian troops in the Golan Heights, the U.N. Interim Force in Lebanon, the U.N. Iraq/Kuwait Observer Mission and the U.N. Mission in the Western Sahara.

The administration has requested $31 million for the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), which supports countries in transition to more open democratic systems. A number of countries in the Middle East participate in NED programs, which deal with issues such as strengthening civil society, assisting democratic activists in authoritarian countries and encouraging free market reforms.

The Bush administration is seeking $16 million for Lockerbie Trial Support, and $4 million for the U.N. Iraq War Crimes Commission.

Fiscal year 2002 starts on October 1, 2001. The U.S. Congress has just begun the process of legislating the spending bills for the next fiscal year. The U.S. Senate already has approved a non-binding resolution that departs significantly from the Bush administration's spending and taxing proposals. The exact international affairs allocations will not be known until Congress enacts the budget later this year.

The documents on the International Affairs (Function 150) and State Department budget requests are available on the State Department's web site: http://www.state.gov/

(The Washington File is a product of the Office of International Information Programs, U.S. Department of State. Web site: http://usinfo.state.gov)

[breaksny]

Sure Iraq, Iran, Syria and Libya all have, or have attempted to develop, weapons of mass destruction. I'm not denying that. I'm not saying Israel shouldn't defend itself against that any more than the US shouldn't. But that has nothing to do with the PA or the Palestinian struggle for independence. Fundamentally that's what I'm arguing here. As well as the fact that not all these nations are committed to Israel's destruction anymore. They're not. Iran's government is deeply split down the middle on that issue for example. You won't find the reformers pushing that b/c they're more concerned with economic development, liberalizing their culture, insitituting the rule or law, normalizing relations with the West (which in time would mean doing so with Israel as well), and seeing the creation of a Palestinian state. Khamanei and the religious right by contrast are much more hostile to Israel. Likewise Iraq. Bashar Asad is somewhere in between, but on balance he's much more concerned with developing his economy likewise given the shambles it's in.

Anyway, I'm arguing that Israel's aggression, some might call it state terrorism, against the Palestinian people is a root cause of political, military, diplomatic, and economic stability in the entire middle east. It's probably the most important issue from all those standpoints in the region, or maybe any region in the world, to resolve. Israel's actions are not self defensive. They're savage. This is all Sharon knows and it is why you won't find peace under him b/c he has no concept of an endgame. He actually thinks he can beat the Palestinians. The war criminal actually said that yesterday. LOL

[dusted]

Originally posted by sassa

How ironic!I am applying to this school for my MA....but in any case, tell me this, who has the most nuclear capabilities in the world?

How many nuclear bombs would it take to wipe out Israel?

I think you're splitting hairs. One nuclear bomb is one too many for a country like Iraq to have.

[dusted]

. He actually thinks he can beat the Palestinians. The war criminal actually said that yesterday. LOL

Whatever do you mean? I thought the Palestinians were such defenceless little cherubs, that couldn't possibly have a chance against a big ferocious behemoth like Israel.

Have you ever heard of a war of attrition? Wearing down the Israelis resolve bit by bit till one day they just give up? The the Palestinians move in, take over and slaughter all the Jews. You wait and see. Mark my words, it'll happen.

[breaksny]

Ya how many Israeli bombs would it take to level Tehran or Baghdad? God you know I hate to say it but someone has to. Get over yer self righteous self. That's such utter bullshit. What concept of the word 1st world military power don't you understand? War of attrition, of course it's a war of attrition. That's all the Palestinians have. They hate the Israelis b/c of the occupation and they had their land stolen. But to this day, despite all that's happened, most Palestinians accept a 2 state solution. Study Palestinian politics. Israel's not going anywhere and you're completely divorced from reality if you seriously think the state's security is in jeopardy from some sort of mass Palestinian slaughter of the Israeli public. The opposite is far more likely to happen, given that Israel isn't even using close to using all the military and other weapons in its arsenal. And your distortional skills in making it out to seem that I call the Palestinians as being "cherubs" is borderline exoticist, not to mention racist, as well as completely divorced from what I have said. But whatever, I'll return to this dialogue tomorrow.

[dusted]

What difference does that make? Israel has to have enough weapons to fight every single Arab nations if it has to, and thats a lot of weapons.

Israel is not the one that started any of this. It only gets the bad rap because it wins all the wars. The winner of any fight is always considered to evil one. Too fucking bad.

Why is it so important for the Palestinians to get their own nation. There was never before in the history of the world a nation called Palestine. The Palestinians are ethnically no different than Arabs, so why doesn't Syria, Jordan and the rest of them absorb them, just like Israel absorbed all the Jews (1,000,000 of them) that were expelled from Arab countries and had their land taken in 1948? And just like Israel continues to allow any Jew from anywhere in the world to be an Israeli citizen.

Bottom fucking line: no nation has to let its enemies enter its country. Palestinians are sworn enemies of Israel, thats been proven time and again.

Like I said before, these "refugees" are being used by other Arab nations to turn world opinion against Israel, wear Israel down so eventually they will get tired of seeing their people blown up, and give up and allow the Jewish state to be destroyed.

[dusted]

When all else fails, bring out the race card.

So, what do you think is stopping the Israelis from bombing these Palestinians into smithereens?

[phuturephunk]

Originally posted by bigmahs

What about the former Soviet Union. The russian mob raped and pillaged that gov't when it came down. The General from Russia said they are missing a 10 kiloton bomb! The only thing is I can't see a sane person from russia hand it over toa Laundry head with out thinking this sick fuck would actually use it.

. . . The Russian mob won't do SHIT against us . . . That's why they're a mafia . . . they're more concerned with racketeering and the like . . and also , don't you think that Putin wouldn't call us in a second to have those fuckers dealt with if they became a threat . . . And we'd oblidge willingly . . .

[phuturephunk]

Originally posted by dusted

When all else fails, bring out the race card.

So, what do you think is stopping the Israelis from bombing these Palestinians into smithereens?

. . . It's that whole concept of Atrocities on a huge scale . . . not a good thing to have on one's resume, no?. . .

[dusted]

. . . It's that whole concept of Atrocities on a huge scale . . . not a good thing to have on one's resume, no?. . .

Correctomundo! And the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world know it. They know they can continue these attacks on Israeli citizens without fear of being destroyed.

[phuturephunk]

Originally posted by dusted

. . . It's that whole concept of Atrocities on a huge scale . . . not a good thing to have on one's resume, no?. . .

Correctomundo! And the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world know it. They know they can continue these attacks on Israeli citizens without fear of being destroyed.

. . not necessarily . . . I do believe that these human bombs are sent out at precise intervals to drive the whole situation out there . . I'm not saying I can see the big picture, but I'm sure there's a method behind it . ..

. . .anyways, that doesn't excuse anything . . I do believe that they need to be stopped, however I am not of the school of thought that we should kill all of them . . . Not a slick move if we were to do that . . to many Martyrs . . . The only way left is a war of attrition to the point where both sides get so exhausted that they NEED to sit down at the table and talk . . . That's what it's all got to come back to . . . Eventually that will happen, but with this being religious based and all . . it's gonna take a long time . . .

. . . never doubt the resolve of organized zealots . . .

[bigpoppanils]

Originally posted by dusted

What difference does that make? Israel has to have enough weapons to fight every single Arab nations if it has to, and thats a lot of weapons.

Israel is not the one that started any of this. It only gets the bad rap because it wins all the wars. The winner of any fight is always considered to evil one. Too fucking bad.

ae the US and United Kingdom considered evil for winning WW2 or the Korean War?

i didnt think so

and never a country called Palestine? Are you fucking nuts? The arabs had the land taken forcefully from them in 1949. And dont start down the road of the area is being the holy land for jews and thus their rightful land, because its a holy land for chrisitans and muslims too. in the end i side with the israelis, i admit the arabs have a good reason to be pissed off

[tribal]

breaks, there you go, you contradict yourself again

why is the israeli standard of living 10 better than any of its neighbors??? should we blame israelis for that? once again, go back to my export question. what does israel offer to the world, and what do arab states offer to the world? seriously, besides olives, oil and figs, what do arab states have to offer the global market? i can name you at least 30 products and technologies that a tiny nation of 6 million offers to the world.

the arab countries arent intent on destroying israel?? really now. do you want to open a history book and maybe take a look at their record so far. just because they failed miserably before, doesnt mean they wont try again. and your assessment of Syria's alleged benignity to israel is core bullshit. Syria maintains dozens of armor divisions as well as chemical weapons on their side of the green line. theyre still pretty pissed about losing Golan dont forget.

breaks, im not saying sharon is right and arafat is wrong, theyre both evil men with no clear vision. what im saying is that israel gets a lot of bad rap, and other nonsense like 'state terrorism' when they defend themselves. the palst are not defenseless, its a myth. and if you want me to disprove that myth, read any headline on any given day. Its either mortar attacks, suicide explosions, missiles, roadside bombs, rifle attacks or grenades. yes, you are naive about your view of PA. they ARE cooperating with damascus in terms of weapon purchases and hezbola cooperation. im not saying the PA is the same as hezbola, theyre not, but they both have a common enemy. remember the karine A? wasnt the PA either , you say.

read the t. friedman article in today's times. very very interesting

[nycmuzik]

I'm just curious how much funding Palestine recieves from other Arab nations...The US gives them $75 million. I wouldnt be surprised if thats the most funding they recieve from any nation.....

[dusted]

Read your history books. Palestine is only a region. It was never a "nation". Before the British took control of it, the Turks (who are most certainly not Arabs) controlled it. Before that it was ruled by the Egyptians. It was ruled over by the Roman Empire(who called it Judea), the Persian Empire, the Arabs during 600 AD(who conquered it to spread their new religion, Islam). Furthermore, there have always been Jews there, from time immemorial. Therefore, it was just as much the Jews as it was the Arabs.

The Arabs were for the most part, nomads. It wasn't until Jewish immigration to Palestine started to take off in the late 1800's, that Arabs from neighboring countries started coming there, due to the fact that the Jews brought jobs to the region.

When the Jews started arriving, the Arabs (absentee landlords) sold them desert and swamp land, land they thought was useless. But the Jews drained the swamps, irrigated the deserts, and planted trees. They turned the supposedly useless land into fertile farms. Then the Arabs wanted the land back. They thought the sneaky Jews tricked them.

Since the Arabs never built a nation out of Palestine, you can't really say that it "belonged" to them. And you can't say that it was stolen from them either.

[t0nythelover]

actually wastn the land of the philistines considered to be palestine.

[breaksny]

The occupation and the nature of the military incursions that've occured during this intifada and before can aptly be called state terrorism. You can't call an invasion a form of self defense. It's blatant aggression. The land isn't Israel's to invade in the 1st place, under Oslo. The thing is you seem to think it is, but no one outside the US or Israel seems to think so.

On the issue of standard of living, no one's blaming Israel for its achievements, I certainly never did. Just for the way it taxes the Palestinians in the territories to finance their own occupation, but that's only a small fraction of the country's GDP anyway. I was responding to another poster who was so paranoid of some sort of mass Palestinian slaughter of Israel's population when the balance of power is so clearly unequal in almost every quantifiable, and in plenty of qualitative, ways. It undermines the argument that the PA or the Palestinian people more generally are such a horrible national security threat to Israel, when in fact the opposite is much more the case. I'm not denying so called terrorism isn't a threat, but the other poster was exaggerating to a ridiculous degree. And the threat from Israel's blatant invasion of Palestinian land, holding its democratically elected leader hostage, and several other acts of aggression clearly demonstrate the Palestinians have much more to fear, much of it realized on a daily basis, as it has been for decades.

As for your charge that I contradict myself, yes I do have a bad habit of making blanket statements without sufficient caveats sometimes. Correcting myself and acknowledging certain details that you point out doesn't muddle my thinking, however. It's called having a balanced overview and being able to acknowledge when you're wrong in certain areas. In no way does this make me naive, when you clearly put the primary onus in this conflict on the side that does not deserve it yourself tribal. I've learned over time that yes the PA is an authoritarian organization, but one with a very diffuse structure, and that was imposed by an international agreement on existing society that had quasi state structures of its own already in place. Alot of people don't want it there b/c they correctly view it as an alien, antidemocratic presence, that by mandate and under law acts as Israel's policeman. As it has since 1994.

Your point about Al Qaeda cells operating in the territories, sure it's probably true, they operate in 60 nations or more, probably even in Israel proper. Should Sharon be brought down for that too? The thing is I never said the Palestinians are defenseless, I'm saying even now the imbalance in power should be obvious to you, even more than to me since you're more seasoned in military matters than I am. I don't need to go through a list of weapons or military capabilities that Israel has and the PA and those opposed to its rule with armed wings in the Territories don't have. Limited cooperation with Hizbollah doesn't change the fact that Israel correctly gets the bum rap you and dusted are whining about to use force that goes beyond that required to deal with the situation. You know more important than any of this is the fact the Sharon's policy is proving essentially ineffective. It isn't working. Do you see any reduction in the violence? Do you see Israel having any success whatsoever in stopping attacks against itself? B/c I don't. Fine several massacres have been prevented, but many more are continuing every day. If you read the news like you claim you do you'd see that yourself. Sharon is an historical anachronism. He belongs to another era and his time is almost up. This policy of his government, and those who came before him is outdated, ineffective, and impractical. It leads to the stalement we have today and brings less security than Israel has had since before Oslo. And it's destroying and radicalizing Palestinian society very quickly.

The jury's out for me on whether Arafat has a vision, I think he does, but he's not the hero I thought he was. His time of being a terrorist is past however since he's basically leading a people under siege. The thing is the Hizbollah cooperation is for expedient purposes, so they get some weapons from there, or Syria. Syria is no friend of Arafat, you should know that if you know the reality on the ground in Damascus, let alone the history. Asad's father tried to kill Arafat many times and he himself continues to back factions opposed to Oslo, something Arafat does not do obviously. You're aware of this right? B/c it's full implications don't seem to be obvious to you. The point is, no one's saying the PA is blameless or defenseless, but it's the wronged party here, the Palestinians are, certainly to the greater degree. They're getting shitted on, not Sharon or Barak or Peres or the Israeli public. Not to the same degree...and to another poster, if you don't get why the creation of Palestine is the keypoint to resolving the conflict, you're hopeless. You don't understand the keystone to security and economic development, not to mention democratization, and to fighting terrorism in the whole region, and beyond.

[thughes]

interesting posts, in my opinion trying to say wether the US is 'good' or 'bad' is an impossible task. My thoughts (feel free to comment)

USA is the worlds 'richest and most powerful' country (not 'best' like some people seem to think !).

It's government acts in a way that ensures that it stays the richest and most powerful, like any country in the same situation would do.

They justify their actions as 'defending democracy' and 'fighting global terrorism' and other such things, but the real reasons are as above.

America is the most powerful country, as such I don't think ethics is really part of the equation, the famous problem - Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

I can't comment on the Middle East, but in Europe I do not think a large percentage of people that the US. The stereotype (in the UK at least), tends to be of 'stupid and blindly patriotic' Americans. I think this stereotype is probably about as accurate as most sterotypes tend to be (i.e. not very).

[breaksny]

Wow Latin. I knew I never shoulda stopped taking that in high school. Btw do you lot ever have heated political debates like this on the London board?

[thughes]

No, no-one really uses the london, not really very popular.

I don't know latin, just a few famous phrases. This one is a good one though, 'Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.' or 'Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.'