How Muslim Countries View America

[roadrunner]

Oh and whoever's got the swastika in their sig is a sick fuck.

[nycmuzik]

Originally posted by sassa

well, what do you expect them to do, sit back and watch their families and friends being murdered in front of them? The Israelis attack...the Palestinians will retaliate and vice versa....it's a vicious cycle of power and struggle.

Why would you want to send your child to their death? Even if my family and friends were being killed around me I would never send one of my children to blow themselves up even if it killed 1000 of my enemies. That to me is as low as it gets. And for reasons like that its hard for me to support what the Palastenians are doing as much as I feel sorry for whats happening. There are other ways to stop all the bloodshed. But its easy for me to say this since I'm neither Isreali or Palestinian. I cant understand what these people are feeling. Just like the little kids in those pictures dont fully grasp whats going on.........

[t0nythelover]

Originally posted by dusted

wait wheres my bomb, i wanna blow up some shit too. id like to blow up the mayors office for one.

[dusted]

My friend, Mecca is most certainly not a tourist destination. By the way, why are non Muslims not allowed in Mecca? Why can't Jews build synagogues there? Isn't that discrimination? They think they can build their fucking mosques wherever the fuck they want, so why can't churches or synagogues be built there?

On the issue of oil, this country buys the bulk of the oil from the Saudis. Why should we not get a deal? Are they going poor because of it? The reason gas is so expensive in Europe is because their socialist governments tax it to death, just like they do everything else. (like their 17% VAT)

And nothing can justify sending little kids who don't understand anything to do these Palestinians dirty work. They're just indoctrinating these kids to grow up to be "martyrs" How much brainwashing does it take to blow yourself up?

March 03, 2002

Losing my boys in the name of fanaticism

Nicky Taylor tells Judith O’Reilly how her three young sons were abducted from Britain by their Muslim father

Zamir seemed entirely normal when I met him. I was 18, he was 22, and we met in the pub in Birmingham on a Saturday night. He liked to laugh; he smoked; he drank. Now I think back to those first meetings and ask myself whether there was any indication of the empty-eyed fanatic he would become.

My children disappeared on August 23, 1998. Adam would be 12 now, Daniel 11, and Alex 7. On that day, Zam was supposed to drop them off at my mother’s house, but he never turned up. Instead, he flew them from Manchester to Islamabad, along with his new wife, who was nine months’ pregnant at the time. They disappeared into Pakistan without a trace.

I wish I could dream about my boys because that at least would be a way of seeing them, but I can’t. I worry all the time that Zamir went to fight in Afghanistan and my children are being brought up to kill westerners. Zamir used to say that if you die fighting for Islam, then you die with a smile on your face.

When we met, he worked in sales and I was a student nurse. He was also in the Territorial Army and had a second job in a nightclub and his own house in Birmingham. Within two years I was pregnant with our first child. Zam adored Adam as soon as he was born, but during all our time together I never met or spoke to his parents. When I was pregnant with Daniel, his father saw us in town, turned on his heel and walked away. Apparently we were never spoken of when Zam went home to see them.

Things began to go wrong in December 1994. By then, Zam was studying on a computer course. He told me he had met some men and was going to the mosque with them. He stayed out at prayer meetings and told me that he wanted me to wear traditional dress. He stopped the children going to McDonald’s because the burgers were not halal and he banned chicken and smokey bacon crisps.

There were to be no more birthday celebrations and he took the children’s baby photographs and their school photographs off the walls. Even our wedding picture had to come down. He also told me we were not really married because the ceremony had been in a register office and only one other Muslim had been present. Christmas was “off” and he expected me to breastfeed Alex till he was seven.

He had also become obsessed with Bosnia. When I thought he was reading the boys bedtime stories, I found he was telling them that Bosnia would happen here and they would have to kill people like mummy, nanny and grandad. Daniel, who was four at the time, started building roadblocks outside the house to stop the tanks coming up the road to kill me. Then I found a video on the top of the wardrobe and the boys admitted that before he put them to bed daddy showed them pictures of atrocities. My innocent young children were watching videos of a pregnant woman with her stomach slit open and her baby dead beside her.

I couldn’t go on after that and the marriage broke down. Although we had nothing to say to each other any more, I still told myself he was a good father to the boys, and he saw them at weekends. He had his own computer business by then and was bringing in £60,000 a year. He took them away to see friends and I knew they had stayed at “Abu’s house”. The name meant nothing to me. I now know “Abu” was Abu Hamza, the extremist Muslim cleric whose Finsbury Park mosque in north London has also been linked to a number of the British Al-Qaeda suspects.

In the months after he left officers came to see me and told me that Zam had known the Yemen Five — British Muslims convicted of a bomb plot against British and American economic targets in Yemen. It also turned out they had interviewed him before he disappeared.

All I ever received from Zam was a letter six weeks after he left. He told me he had spent three years planning the abduction and that he did not want his children to be “kaffirs” (unbelievers). I was devastated when I read: “I have made some very good contacts with some people here. They are aware of my situation and are very willing to help us.”

He claimed that the children “will have to eventually get used to the fact that they may never see you again”. It went on: “It would have been better for you to have accepted Islam in the past, therefore we would have had a successful future — but it has been ordained that you took the other path.”

The uncertainty is the worst thing. I live with overwhelming uncertainty every moment of every day. I don’t know where they are or who is looking after them, whether they are well and if they are happy. They could be starving or they could be chained to a wall in some extremist school.

I spend every day on the internet looking for them. I knew nothing about Pakistan or Islam when this nightmare began. Now I just try to understand and find people who could help me. The Pakistani authorities are very helpful and I have nothing but praise for them, but I don’t feel the Foreign Office has done enough, even though the children are British citizens.

I remarried and I have two other boys now — Conah, 4, and Louis, 2. Conah and Louis do not know the whole story — just that they have brothers who went on an aeroplane and mummy is trying to find them. When Conah recently turned four, it made me think of Alex. He would have been four in the October of the year he was abducted. All he wanted for his birthday was a Teletubby cake. He never got it.

What exactly does American foreign policy have to do with religion?

Why do these people say they are fighting for "Islam"

[stoked]

Originally posted by dusted

Breaks ny: please try to be a little less long winded.

I would like to know what makes you such an expert on the Muslim world, the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, or American foreign policy. What, you think because you watch BBC News that you know everything there is to know?

What books have you read on the subject? What have you read about the Israeli side of things?

Why do you think we have to find the root causes of terrorism? Do you think we should have tried to "understand" the root causes of the Nazi's? How about Tim Mcveigh? No everyone was happy to see him put to death. No one was interested in finding anything about him. The liberal media was curiously silent.

Why is it only America that is bound to follow this so called "international law" (which basically only destroys a nations sovereignty)? Does Turkey abide by international law when it comes to slaughtering the Kurds? Does Saudi Arabia abide by international law? Is Zimbabwe following international law?

Or is it a double standard, is the U.S. because we are so powerful supposed to be hobbled?

Why you are so concerned about the treatment of these prisoners is beyond me. Were you this concerned about Timothy McVeigh's treatment. How come no one was screaming that he should have POW status?

Wasn't his act a political statement?

Who made u an expert on world politics and justice. You are bad mouthing breaksny while u write about things that you don't know. You mentioned slaughter of Kurds in Turkey and other countries who don't abide by international law. What kind of research did u do on these topics/countries?

I can only talk about the situation you mentioned in Turkey since I was born and spent 12 yrs of my life there. I am no expert but I know more than this idiot. I decided to write this because ppl like dusted who does not know what really goes on in the world end up writing shit like this and influence others.

In the late 70's a kurdish terrorist group called PKK started their terrorist activities in the south-eastern Turkey. Their ideal was to create a seperate kurdish govt. PKK training camps were located in northern Iraq and Syria. PKK bought guns by trafficing drugs from afganistan to western europe .These terrorists crossed the border on regular basis and slaugtered civilians whom were mostly their own people. From 1979 to 1999 more than 30 000 people died in these attacks. More than %95 of these people were civilians. The leader of this group , Apo Ocalan is also recognized by US and other countries as a terrorist and he was captured in Africa 2 years ago after being in the run in Greece and then in Italy. Since his capture attacks have ended.

Apo is spending rest of his days in a jail just by himself on a small island. He did not get the death penalty because his followers would have made him a great hero who died for the cause.

I think US should not kill Bin Ladin if he ever gets captured for the same reason. Although, millions of other people and I would like to see him fry on the electric chair .

After Sept 11 , turkish special forces with 20 yrs of cave and mountain warfare experince with terrorism were called to Florida to train US special forces before they went to Afganhistan.

Dusted , next time you post something here back it up.

I apologize to all of you for being off the topic . I just can't stand people who say shit about things and sound like an expert but in truth they have no idea what's going on.

[breaksny]

Long winded. Haha. Why wouldn't I care about the treatment about these prisoners given the fact that I live in a democracy and I expect my own government to live up to its obligations under international law? George Bush represents me (even though I didn't vote for him). Sure he represents you too, and you've voiced your opinion that you don't care what happens in Guantanamo. But the fact is the prisoners in Guantanamo are protected under international law, they have rights as prisoners of war. It seems patently obvious that the reason they're not being granted said status is b/c it's more legally and politically expedient not to do so...it's much easier to force someone to answer questions when they don't have the right to refuse to answer, as a POW would. Why does it matter, b/c we're a democracy, we're not Al Qaeda or the LTTE in Sri Lanka (since another poster referred to them) or any of the numerous governments in the Middle East we support (or Israel's Shin Bet which likewise for decades has tortured and, in the worst cases, killed its prisoners). Likewise are you aware that under the military tribunals the Administration created in the last 6 months we've locked up 100s, maybe 1000s I'm not even sure, of Arabs, Moslems, and South Asians for questioning and held them without charge or trial for indefinite periods of time? The last time this happened to the best of my knowledge was WW2. Many of these people are here on student visas or have work permits here, have no connection whatsoever with Al Qaeda or any other terrorist organization, but are being detained b/c of their race or religion. Is that how a democracy is suppose to function? The same goes for the new powers granted to law enforcement agencies to effectively repeal many habeas corpus and other Bill of Rights protections entitled to US citizens. Is that a legally consistent, let alone morally defensible, thing to do? What's the point of these protections in the 1st place anyway? To protect the rights of US citizens and, in the case of international law, foreigners in precisely this sort of situation, a time of war, national emergency, or other threat to the safety and security of our nation and society. Brushing those concerns aside is inconsistent with the constitution and its purpose itself, not to mention international law, such as the Geneva Conventions.

Haven't I criticized other governments in my posts? Read the posts a little more carefully if you missed that. I'm not fan of the Iraqi government, the Taliban, or many of the US's allies in the Middle East, such as the Saudis and Egyptians. in the latter 2 cases that raises the question why do we support these states in the 1st place? Out of national strategic interest obviously, and in the case of Eqypt, b/c we're bound to via our support for Israel. The same applies to Jordan. I never claimed to be an expert on the Middle East, but you have to nuance your statements in terms of the degree of freedom you have in countries there. Iran, for example, is clearly not Iraq, for reasons I've said, let alone North Korea. Go there yourself, or pick up a news paper or like you said "listen to the BBC" if you don't believe me. That's why I think the Axis of Evil speech was naive, not to mention damaging to US strategic interests on the World Stage. And isn't what this world is supposed to be all about anyway?

Sure I have plenty more to learn, and I won't deny when it comes down to it Israel has the most open political system in the region. Doesn't that go without saying? I don't have to roll over and love what it's doing to the Palestinian people just b/c I acknowledge that they're more democratic in other respects than the other governments in the region. Likewise on the Palestinian side, the more I read about the PA the more I have problems with it...Arafat's an authoritarian leader whose administration effectively was created by Oslo...as an instrument of Israeli control in the territories. He accepted a treaty that gave him what promised over time to become a state on just over a fifth of his people's historical homeland, in exchange for peace. The conditions under which that occurred made him responsible for protecting Israeli security, at any cost. It also meant that he gave up any hope to outside legal intervention if the conflict started up again, meaning Israel (the much more powerful of the 2 parties militarily, economically, and politically) basically would call the shots. He wasn't exactly Israel's puppet, but he did become its chief policeman in the territories. And the thing you have to understand about why he has been far from successful in that regard is that he had failed on many occassions b/c his organization is a very decentralized one. And further the proto-state he was mandated to create was imposed on a society where authority was already very decentralized to the local level of society b/c of the 1st intifada. The PA elite as I said is an expatriate elite from Tunisia and the Palestinian diaspora for the most part, not the Territories.

He brought in an expatriate elite of the PLO, particularly Fatah, from Tunisia in the mid-90s and went about dismantling the existing para-state structures that had been created by the on the ground leaders of the 1st Intifada back in the 1980s. The latter organizations (mainly grassroots PLO factional leaders from Fatah, the DFLP, PFLP, and Palestine Communist Party) had basically created an entire quasi-state structure in the 80s and early 90s in the territories of schools, medical clinics, charities, civil law enforcement organizations, agricultural cooperatives, womens associations, and numerous other organizations and NGOs that basically functioned in many cases as a state, parallel to the Israeli colonial military administation. Hamas had done the same. Arafat's new PA coopted, harrassed, imprisoned, and did worse to the leadership of many of these NGOs. These organizations and their sister PLO factions had not only been fighting Israeli occupation on the ground, but had in many cases effectively overthrown the existing social elites that had ruled the Territories under Israel, and before them, Jordan, Egypt, Britain, and the Ottomans. Fortunately, there's still a vibrant and powerful opposition movement in existence in the Territories, with more clout and power than anywhere else in the Arab world that's able to oppose him and the Israeli occupation with great success in many cases. But on balance, yes the PA too is an authoritarian administations ruling, ironically enough, the most vibrant and, in many ways democratic, civil society outside of Israel proper in the Middle East.

To answer some of your other questions, yes I opposed McVeigh's execution b/c I oppose capital punishment, for reasons I can go into, but that's another discussion. And it should be patently obvious why you'd wanna understand the root causes of Fascism or Terrorism, as I said before, so I'm not a victim of either whether here or abroad. In short, to make sure that it never happens again. I studied fascism in college b/c it was part of a polisci course I took in school. It doesn't mean you agree with it, it means that you understand the drivel that makes up that worthless excuse for a political philosophy so you can refute it. It's much easier to defeat your enemy, if you know his or her strenghts and weaknesses. It's just as true in an argument as it is on a battlefield. Bottom line is, I've amply demonstrated why I attack US policies, and that I'm not fan of authoritarianism, or extralegality anywhere in the world. I'm a perfectionistic idealist, I'll freely admit that. The world'll never be to my liking. Doesn't mean it isn't worth the fight to stand up for freedom nonetheless. Let me say one other thing. I completely respect the choice of those in uniform who are over in Afghanistan risking their lives to protect my freedom, even if I don't agree with what their bosses are telling them to do. God knows they have more stones than I do. So I dunno if that means to you that they're more manly, I dunno think whatever you want. But I certainly respect their life choice and I salute and thank them for their sacrfices, for what they're doing for me and the rest of us. It doesn't mean I have to share their or their bosses politics, however.

[bigmahs]

Originally posted by raver_mania

Um...exactly which "people" are animals? The government of the US?

Very well said breaksny.

The terrorists!!!!!!!!

The AL queda who assisinated the navy seal in Afghanistan .

THE PALESTINIAN FUCKING IDIOTS WHO THE CAN'T FATHOM PEACE BECAUSE THEY ARE BARBARIANS

Fuck AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL THE MARINES SHOULD PUT ONE IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD IN EVERY DETAINAEE IN CUBA PAY BACK FOR THE SERVICE MEN KILLED IN BATTLE.

I AM WITH YOU DUSTED THESE PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD DEFENDING THE TERRORISTS CAUSE AND BAD TALKING THE US SHOULD BE BEATEN LIKE BABY SEALS !!!!!!!!!!!

[bigmahs]

Originally posted by go411

CAN WE JUST SAY .... FUCK THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT!!

WE THE YOUTH SHOULD BE RUNNING THIS COUNTRY.. NOT SOME CAPITALIST, GREEDY OLD FARTS WTF.... ALL MY TAX MONEY USED ON BULLSHIT WARS AND KILLINGS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE.... HOW ABOUT THE LIFES OF ALL THOSE PEOPLE KILLED ON 9-11>>>> I ONLY BLAME ONE INSTITUTION FOR IT>>>> "THE FUCKED UP GOVERMENT WE HAVE"... MAYBE IF WE HAD THE COURAGE TO GO OUT AND MAKE OUR VOICES HEARD INSTEAD OF POSTING... IT WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE. THEN AGAIN IT WOULD GET US ALL KILLED BY SOME FUCKED UP AMERICAN POLITICIAN WHO'S AFRAID OF REVOLUTION!!!!!

AND TO ANSWER THE QUESTION WHY THEY HAVE A BAD VIEW OF AMERICANS IN THE WORLD ...WELL THAT'S THANXS TO OUR GRANDFATHERS WHO HAVE AND ARE RUNNING IT WHO HAVE DONE SO MUCH DAMAGE IN OTHER COUNTRIES .. I WISH I COULD TELL THE REST OF THE WORLD THAT THE PEOPLE OF THE US ARE THE LEAST INFORMED OF WHAT REALLY GOES ON ..... AND THAT WE ARE NOT BAD PEOPLE.... AFTER ALL

WHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD CAN YOU ENJOY THE FREEDOMS YOU HAVE NOW?

LEAVE THE COUNTRY YOU UNGREATFUL TREE HUGGING HIPPEE ANARCHIST!!!!!

[go411]

Originally posted by bigmahs

WHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD CAN YOU ENJOY THE FREEDOMS YOU HAVE NOW?

LEAVE THE COUNTRY YOU UNGREATFUL TREE HUGGING HIPPEE ANARCHIST!!!!!

BITCH..... I NEVER SAID I HATED THIS COUNTRY!!!! AND THE FREEDOMS WE ENJOY TODAY YOU THINK THE GOVERNMENT GAVE THEM TO US? HA! WE HAVE FREEDOM THANXS TO OUR FEMINIST MOVEMENTS IN THE 60'S, MARTIN LUTHER KING, JFK (THE ONE AND ONLY GOOD ONE) ALL THOSE TREE HUGGING HIPPIES ANARCHIST!!! WHO RALLY FOR THE FREEDOMS WE ENJOY TODAY..

SO THEY CAN PASS LAWS THAT DEFEND ANIMAL RIGHTS, WOMYN RIGHTS, GAYS & LESBIANS RIGHTS, BLACKS & HISPANICS RIGHTS...ETC ETC ETC....

WHAT.. YOU THOUGHT RICHARD NIXON AND ALL THE OTHERS, SAT DOWN AND GAVE THEM TO US OUT OF THE KINDNESS OF THEIR HEARTS.....? CHECK YOURSELF BEFORE YOU RECK YOURSELF BIGMAHS....

[tribal]

go411, just a hint, if you type ALL YOUR RESPONSES LIKE THIS, its not going to make your p.o.v. appear any more valid. i think many people here are very disillusioned with a number of things.

1. before people like go41 rabidly bash this country, they should consider the reasons why much of the mideast hates us. Consider the exports and the industry of these countries to around the world. Try to name 10 products that you use often that were manufactured from a mid east country other than Israel and Turkey.

2. consider what the children of those countries are taught at schools and madrassas. while our children are taught about MLK, tolerance and racial harmony (albeit there is still much discontent), their children are taught hate, female oppression, anti semitic views and promises of 'martyrs' paradise'.

3. give me one invention or technological advance (non Israeli) that came out of any mid east country in the past 50 years.

4. i know its unpopular and un 'politically correct' to say this, but their culture needs a massive overhaul in order to keep up with the rest of the world. its easy to blame all your problems on the big bad US, while ignoring the rotting pillars of the current mid east states which are rife with extremism, terrorism and lack of industry. Saudia Arabia had more Koran scholars graduates than any other profession. take a fucking guess what that means.

5. regarding Israel. any claims that israelis are 'murdering' palst are just plain false. the people who say these things STILL view the palst as rock throwing 'oppressed' people. what you dont see is the connection of PA with Syria, Iran and hezbolla, the missiles fired at israeli cities, the daily mortar and bomb attacks against israeli citizens. the hezbola explosives placed on a road, destroying an israeli tank and killing its crew. i would never support these people and saying they are oppressed and their terrorism is justified, is like saying a criminal who murdered dozens of people should be set free, because he had a bad childhood. if you still see the palst as defenseless, oppressed and innocent people, open your fucking eyes. read the headlines.

6. its time for a Muslim Renaissance. they really need it right about now.

[bigmahs]

Originally posted by breaksny

Wow all us leftists r comin outta the woordwork. It's about time. U know, I expect an angry retort from Tribal and possibly others to what I and others have said, but maybe we could get this back on track in regard to the original topic of the thread. Why do many Moslem societies have a beef with the US? My bad as well for going off track on that, if I did.

You are dillusional.

The feedoms we enjoy were given to us by the American Servicemen that fought and died for this country. If not we would all be speaking Japanesse, German better yet Arabic in the future.

Your puny little tree hugging feminist mind can't understand what we are dealing with these animals maybe you should go to Iran and preach your so called feminism theory there maybe you will be lucky and they will just behead you.

FOOL!!!!!

[bigmahs]

mY RESPONSE IS TO GO 411

[tribal]

if anyone has seen the movie Mars Attacks, bigmah reminds me of that general with sunglasses who wants to nuke the martians the moment they land. "Idiots! Intellectuals! Peacemongers! Nuke Nuke Nuke, kill kill destroy!"

haha, listen bigmah, stop that shit, post your points like the civilized western that you are. if you want to deport everyone who disagrees with you, youre no better than the people you say are animals.

breaks, read my post 1 page back, and tell me if you disagree. ive said what i needed to say on this subject.

[bigmahs]

Originally posted by tribal

if anyone has seen the movie Mars Attacks, bigmah reminds me of that general with sunglasses who wants to nuke the martians the moment they land. "Idiots! Intellectuals! Peacemongers! Nuke Nuke Nuke, kill kill destroy!"

haha, listen bigmah, stop that shit, post your points like the civilized western that you are. if you want to deport everyone who disagrees with you, youre no better than the people you say are animals.

breaks, read my post 1 page back, and tell me if you disagree. ive said what i needed to say on this subject.

Tribal, The anger that I have is on this issue has been bottled up for to long. Survival of the fittest.

[phuturephunk]

Originally posted by tribal

if anyone has seen the movie Mars Attacks, bigmah reminds me of that general with sunglasses who wants to nuke the martians the moment they land. "Idiots! Intellectuals! Peacemongers! Nuke Nuke Nuke, kill kill destroy!"

haha, listen bigmah, stop that shit, post your points like the civilized western that you are. if you want to deport everyone who disagrees with you, youre no better than the people you say are animals.

breaks, read my post 1 page back, and tell me if you disagree. ive said what i needed to say on this subject.

. . . . The scary thing Tribal, is that there are Millions of Bigmah's in this country who would rather nuke first then ask questions later . . . A view point like his is exactly what our government wants out of us . . . It's easier to control because it's blind . .

[phuturephunk]

Originally posted by bigmahs

Tribal, The anger that I have is on this issue has been bottled up for to long. Survival of the fittest.

. . .make no mistake son , you are not the fittest in the eyes of those who lead . . . you are the most leadable . .

[go411]

Originally posted by tribal

go411, just a hint, if you type ALL YOUR RESPONSES LIKE THIS, its not going to make your p.o.v. appear any more valid. i think many people here are very disillusioned with a number of things.

1. before people like go41 rabidly bash this country, they should consider the reasons why much of the mideast hates us. Consider the exports and the industry of these countries to around the world. Try to name 10 products that you use often that were manufactured from a mid east country other than Israel and Turkey.

2. consider what the children of those countries are taught at schools and madrassas. while our children are taught about MLK, tolerance and racial harmony (albeit there is still much discontent), their children are taught hate, female oppression, anti semitic views and promises of 'martyrs' paradise'.

3. give me one invention or technological advance (non Israeli) that came out of any mid east country in the past 50 years.

YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, BUT THERE'S MORE TO THIS BASHING THAN YOU WOULD EVER KNOW.

IT'S NOT SOMETHING YOU CAN DISCUSS ONLINE IN A MESSAGE BOARD.... THIS TOPIC SHOULD NOT BE HERE PERIOD.... IT'S SOMETHING YOU TALK FACE TO FACE >> ANALIZE AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND...WITH EVERYONE INVOLVED...

I GET ANGRY WHEN PEOPLE TRY TO DEFEND THESE FREAKIN CROOKS...

[breaksny]

Idealistic is a far cry from delusional. And let me point out to you most liberals wouldn't be as gracious to our men in uniform as I am. Certainly not on this board. Guess that doesn't mean much to you.

[bigmahs]

Originally posted by breaksny

Idealistic is a far cry from delusional. And let me point out to you most liberals wouldn't be as gracious to our men in uniform as I am. Certainly not on this board. Guess that doesn't mean much to you.

wHO'S A LIBERAL?

iSAID GO 411 WAS DILLUSIONAL

[breaksny]

The thing is Tribal, I've never denied any of what you've said in terms of Israeli suffering in the conflict. I just think you're wrong about the root causes of this. How can you seriously link the PA to Syria when the PA is dominated by Fatah, a faction that has no significant military, economic, or other support from the Asad's Ba'ath party movement? If you wanna talk about factions of the PFLP or the DFLP that's another matter, but those organizations aren't under Arafat's thumb, any more than he is under Asad's. Hizbollah likewise has nothing to do with the conflict in the Territories as I'm sure you know, it's a Lebanese guerilla organization/political party. And as far as Iran goes, sure those weapons were smuggled into the territories, maybe by Arafat. As I've said before, so what? He has to get his arms from somewhere since his people are under siege. The US won't sell em to him so buy em from somewhere else. Arafat is no stooge for Khamanei and his lackeys in Iran, his organization is secular, their government isn't. It would seem much more logical to assume connections between Hamas and/or Islamic Jihad and a government like Iran than between the latter and the PA. But even if you're right, the root cause of this is still the occupation. That includes the 200,000 Israeli settlers and the security forces that there are protecting them there. If you follow the news, you've noticed that the focus in attacks has shifted to targets in the territories themselves in the last couple weeks. I'm not at all denying that they're not continuing in Jerusalem and other parts of Israel proper, but the focus now is on targets in the West Bank, and to a lesser extent Gaza. And to be honest with you, it's become apparent that a significantly large minority, if not the majority of the populations supports said strikes, and I don't blame them for doing so. The same can hardly be said anymore in Israel proper where Sharon's popularity is slipping. He trails Netanyahu now in the polls for leadership of his party, and the left is growing in numbers and loudness in its opposition to this whole damn war (I call it a low intensity war anyway), even in the armed forces. Sharon will be out of office before year's end, unless he manages a cease fire or to find a way to implement mitchell or prince abdullah's plan. But he's a soldier and nothing else, the man doesn't have an endgame. Btw, did you see the news that a Belgian court is considering trying him for genocide for Shabra and Shatilla back in 82? They've recessed without delivering an indictment thus far, but I told u so...the man should be in the dock next to Milosevic. Now I have legal proof to back my claim up since the Europeans think it too, not just the Palestinians. I guess the upside of this is we won't be getting anymore racist threads with subject headings like "Nonstop Arab Terror."

[breaksny]

O. Nm.

[bigmahs]

Originally posted by phuturephunk

. . . . The scary thing Tribal, is that there are Millions of Bigmah's in this country who would rather nuke first then ask questions later . . . A view point like his is exactly what our government wants out of us . . . It's easier to control because it's blind . .

hEY FUTUREPUNK WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THESE PIECES OF GARBAGE WOULD BE HESATANT IN LEVELING THIS COUNTRY. HOW ABOUT BEING AT WORK AND ALL OF SUDDEN IT GOES FROM 50 DEGREES TO A MILLION 5 IN A MILLISECOND. THINK ABOUT IT NO ONE EVER THOUGHT THEY WOULD CRASH TWO AIRLINERS INTO A FUCKING BUILDING RIGHT? THESE PEOPLE ARE CRAZY THEY MUST BE CUT OUT LIKE A CANCER

[t0nythelover]

i think the united states is run by old capitalist fucks looking to line their pockets at the expense of others, and that means us too. the us grows enough food to feed the entire world. bet yall didnt know that. yet we still have people starving on the streets. if we were so great there would be no homeless people. how many people have tobacco companies killed, or cars companies that make fucked up products and dont tell anyone. i say its time for a revolution.

[go411]

Originally posted by bigmahs

wHO'S A LIBERAL?

iSAID GO 411 WAS DILLUSIONAL

OKEY I'M DILLUSIONAL NOW!!!!!!

[go411]

Originally posted by t0nythelover

i think the united states is run by old capitalist fucks looking to line their pockets at the expense of others, and that means us too. the us grows enough food to feed the entire world. bet yall didnt know that. yet we still have people starving on the streets. if we were so great there would be no homeless people. how many people have tobacco companies killed, or cars companies that make fucked up products and dont tell anyone. i say its time for a revolution.

WOOOOHOOOOOO...... ABOUT GOD DAMM TIME SOMEONE SAID SOMETHING SMART IN HERE.....

CREVOLUTION IT'S WHAT WE NEED.... :bounce: