How Muslim Countries View America

[breaksny]

U know the biggest indication of the intelligence level of many people on this board is reflected in that statement, thump. Explain to me how following the news or learning about the history, culture, or political systems of other countries, let alone one's own, is a bad thing. Alot of you seem to have the inane belief that liberals are out of touch with reality b/c we're educated...frankly it seems to be the opposite of liberal idealism. We may think the world should be perfect and are out of touch with alot of what's really going on out there. On the other hand, people like you seem to think you can form an opinion by listening to one particular source of information, and not learning a thing about the other side of the argument. You think reading a book or following the news or visiting a society where popular opinion doesn't necessarily agree with American governmental policy is out of touch with the reality. All I see from people like that, witness Tribal re the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, is a narrow minded person, who completely and utterly has no concept of the reality on the ground himself. Or @ best, only half of the story. He has family in the Jerusalem who live in fear. No one denies they're suffering. But it's pattently obcvious to me, that he has no conception of the other side of the conflict. I don't need to visit a refugee camp in the West Bank to know people there are people suffering there b/c of Israeli military abuse and slaughter when the BBC's own reporters do it for me. Sure I'll learn alot more by going there myself. And it's perfectly true to say that you can't fully understand unless you visit the place yourself. But it's equally true to say that you're ignorant (or to put it more bluntly, in many cases, stupid) to think that learning about the past or studying about how a country's political system works is idealistic, impractical, or removed from reality in any way. It's just stupid to argue that it is. How on earth can anyone argue otherwise? You don't have to agree that my beliefs are correct in terms of who's @ fault here in this particular conflict, but you're talking utter nonsense to argue that education is a negative thing or in any way removed from real life experience. It builds skills (high value intellectual skills) that allow you to get a job later, think analytcally and independently, and prepare yourself for REAL LIFE more than if you don't have that experience. Go back to school if you think otherwise cuz you don't understand the real world if you think that way.

[breaksny]

U know I should add to that the fact that NYCmuzik doesn't seem to agree with all my opinions, which really doesn't bug me cuz the fact of the matter is, he's attempting to get a well rounded view of some of the root causes of terrorism in the world. It shows to me he cares deeply about not just victims of terrorist attacks but about the deeper cultural, economic, and political causes that push people to commit such atrocities. That's an idealistic sentiment on my part, but a practical one, one that has real life implications...if nothing else if people don't hate the US they're alot less likely to commit terrorist attacks against me, an American, whether here or abroad. I'm not claiming to have the answers for how to resolve such a complex series of related issues, but I credit those who do try to build a dialogue by asking the hard questions and not being affraid to stand up for their beliefs even when the majority (namely most of the American public) may not agree with them. It's much easier to rally around your own flag and wave it and say "down with the terrorists" than it is to stand up to such patriotic fervor and say "wait a minute, we're a democracy and maybe there's a reason these things are being done to us." I'm not accusing anyone here of blind patriotism, but I am accusing alot of people of willful ignorance. That's what got us into this mess in the 1st place.

Witness the hostage taking of the american embassy in iran in 79, witness the demonstrations a few weeks ago in tehran against bush's "axis of evil" speech in which president khatami (and if you know a damn thing about iranian politics you know he's a moderate) condemned the speech b/c of his own personal outrage @ how his country was lumped with sadam and kim jong il. No denying those in charge of iran's security forces do back terrorists in the middle east. But this speech has hurt the reformist movement there and quite possibly cost any chance of dialogue between the democratically elected moderates and the US before the end of Khatami's 2nd term. And btw that raises another point, Iran's entire parliament, its president, and all its local governments are all democratically elected, its women are the freest in the Gulf, and it has the longest historical tradition of democracy on earth (older than ancient greece). People there were pissed off frankly to be lumped with sadam hussein, a man who gassed their people in 1 of the most vicious wars in the world in the 1980s. Iran's people are the only ones in the world ever to've had biological and chemical weapons used against them in the postwar period. They're not entirely in control of many of the significant levers of power in the country, it's true. It's a semi-democracy, but it that says alot more for Iran than many of the nations the US is much closer with in the region and supports militarily, mainly to get intelligence help in fighting al qaeda, to have support in resolving the israeli-palestinian conflict, and to obtain oil natural gas for our economy. Of course they're gonna demonstrate...they don't need the security forces or armed militias to egg them on to do so when the US is unjustifiably attacking their country, and making minimal distinctions between the widely different political factions in their country. I will give limited credit to Secretary Powell, and to a lesser degree Condi Rice for being more nuanced in their public statements, and policy stances. But not the Pentagon or the Vice President. And frankly the commander in chief seems to see things in black in white on this issue in a way that will be harmful to longterm american strategic interests in the region. Iran is not Iraq or North Korea, let alone Al Qaeda or the Taliban. The administration should be more responsible in acknoqledging that fact, and work to mend fences with the moderates in their government since it'll help us in Afghanistan, the Gulf, and resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

[bobross]

Soon the spaceships will land. They will take us!

[breaksny]

R u a Parker Lewis fan? Wow scary how I actually remember watching that show when I was in HS.

[thumping101]

ummm...breaksny... you misinterpreted my statement. we're arguing the same point. what i was saying was that you need to get all sides of the story... that you DO need to learn about other cultures, histories etc ...from alternate sites and sides that have an objective view, and not just the local news because, obviously, they are biased. You have to consider who owns that network.

but uhh..thanks for arguing my point for me?

[thumping101]

when i say "you" i dont mean you yourself.. i mean "you" as in people in general

im completely confused on how we ended up debating the same point...

[saifuku]

All I gotta say is that if any of you have a problem with the US....

Then GET THE FUCK OUT!! I'm fucking proud to be here and I hate when people who live here, but have roots in the middle east or eslewhere bash our country.

Power=Arrogance to most. I think that's bullshit. We are a superpower so we're gonna act like it.

[thumping101]

one of the things America stands for is freedom .. and one of those freedoms is to think as an individual and cultivate your own thoughts and opinions.

there was once a time when slavery was a right, women were not allowed to vote, raping your wife was a-ok, Asians were thrown into camps, and children worked 12 hour days.

If no one fought against that things would still be the same. To tell people, even if you do not agree with them, to "get the fuck out" is in itself unamerican

i have way too much time at work....

[tranzmuzik2k1]

damn it bro..... u had to start this shit again with another survey didn't u... bastard!!! hehehehe

[breaksny]

Ok my bad thump. Nowadays instead of throwing Japanese-, German-, and Italian-Americans into camps, we throw Arabs, Moslems, and South Asians into prison for extended periods of time without charge or trial, and torture them as well. O ya and we defy international law and military conventions via what we're doing down in Cuba. Lots of progress, replace the persecution of some groups of people with the persecution of others. I'm sure the Russians and others would be impressed by the expediency of our criminal and marshal legal systems.

[sassa]

Originally posted by breaksny

Ok my bad thump. Nowadays instead of throwing Japanese-, German-, and Italian-Americans into camps, we throw Arabs, Moslems, and South Asians into prison for extended periods of time without charge or trial, and torture them as well. O ya and we defy international law and military conventions via what we're doing down in Cuba. Lots of progress, replace the persecution of some groups of people with the persecution of others. I'm sure the Russians and others would be impressed by the expediency of our criminal and marshal legal systems.

Well said.

[bigmahs]

Originally posted by breaksny

Ok my bad thump. Nowadays instead of throwing Japanese-, German-, and Italian-Americans into camps, we throw Arabs, Moslems, and South Asians into prison for extended periods of time without charge or trial, and torture them as well. O ya and we defy international law and military conventions via what we're doing down in Cuba. Lots of progress, replace the persecution of some groups of people with the persecution of others. I'm sure the Russians and others would be impressed by the expediency of our criminal and marshal legal systems.

The bottomline is these people are animals

[tepfenhardth]

do we have a large majority of people being brainwashed by our educational, media and other such devices. By that I mean, "the best country to live in"...the majority of people saying this, have probably never stepped foot out of the US, so I would hold off on those comments. In addition, here is a little literature on these links that you may get a clear idea of the Arab point of view.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/blackmail.html

http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/war/mossad.htm

http://www.rense.com/general18/thesecretwar.htm

http://www.newsbytes.com/news/01/170583.html

If the links do not work just copy and paste. These things may seem crazy, but I am sure are not as farfetched as you may think them to be..

This one is the best, long but good

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2001/2833mega_spy.html

[thumping101]

i dont even know if your post was directed at me... it didnt really makes sense to be but heres another thought...

My last post meant that mass opinion doesnt necessarily make for the right one. and it was only through fighting that slavery was abolished, women were given rights, yada yada yada..

The Al queda Terrorists at Camp XRAY are not POWs, they are not fighting from a recognized government. Say for instance, the kidnappers/torturers/videotapers of throat slashings of David Pearl, the journalist for the Wall St Journal are captured. They are not prisoners of war. they are criminals.

And of course they are handcuffed. THEYRE CRIMINALS. We get handcuffed if we jump the turnstile at the train station. you dont expect people that have no qualms in blowing themselves up for their cause to be handcuffed?

Of course they dont wont to be detained but theyre given food daily, probably more then they had in Afghanistan. More then any hungry person in any region. They even actually chose to go on a hunger strike. Some had to be fed intravneously so that they wouldnt starve themselves. They have religious freedom. They are not being shot at randomly in the bitter Afghan winter with no shelter. So far there have been no cases that fit to be tried under military tribunals..

Even under Taliban "rule", the people of Afghanistan were not allowed to sing, fly kites, have pets, dance or even watch tv. obviously they were not allowed to go out and speak their minds. To do anything unholy would mean death... there were people beaten with sticks until their spines were pulverized left to bleed to death on dirt floors...for flying a kite. Women can not walk alone around town. Showing ANY part of their skin, means death. Can you imagine being stooned to death? For showing an eyelid?The Al Queda terrorists at Camp Xray do not have it so bad.

[thumping101]

last post i was responding to breaksny

[kramadas]

Originally posted by bigmahs

The bottomline is these people are animals

Um...exactly which "people" are animals? The government of the US?

Very well said breaksny.

[breaksny]

Ya thump that's the problem, they R POW's. Rumsfeld & the neo-mccarthyites like Wolfowitz in the Pentagon just don't wanna grant them the status they deserve b/c there's no domestic constituency pressuring them to do so. With 85% popularity (or whatever the percentage is now), why would he need to? The thing is shackling and other forms of torture aren't the same as handcuffing. Obviously the prisoners are criminals but this is why I've never liked Rumsfeld or the deputies who back him up. He's proving like this boss that in alot of important respects he doesn't give a damn about international, or even american, law. Certainly not from a human rights or humanitarian standpoint. Everyone knows these cages the Al-Qaeda prisoners being held in are effectively (as a previous poster put it) treating these people "like animals." He seems to think that's what they are and that apparently seems to be what the defense department, the vice president, and, in effect, the commander-in-chief think as well. This is why I didn't vote for this election stealing hick 2 years ago! Cuz I knew his foreign (and apparently domestic human rights policy as well) is antithetical to democracy. It's a fuckin outrage. Do you see Milosevic being treated this way in the Hague? No. Why? B/c the international tribunal for the former yugoslavia is mandated to provide those it holds in custody not only a fair trial, but fair conditions of detention, and the right to be held only if they have been charged with a crime. And remember Milosevic is responsible for alot more suffering than any of these men are. Sure it could be worse, but it doesn't meet minimal standards of decency or international legal norms either. Why aren't these people under custody of the UN anyway, especially given the fact that the victims were from all over the world, not just the US. To put it bluntly, Bush and Rumsfeld are violating international law. And further, they don't seem to want to bring these criminals to the justice they need to be brought to in order to deter others from doing this again. They just want vengeance under marshal law, not criminal law. God I hope he's voted out in 2 years.

[go411]

CAN WE JUST SAY .... FUCK THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT!!

WE THE YOUTH SHOULD BE RUNNING THIS COUNTRY.. NOT SOME CAPITALIST, GREEDY OLD FARTS WTF.... ALL MY TAX MONEY USED ON BULLSHIT WARS AND KILLINGS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE.... HOW ABOUT THE LIFES OF ALL THOSE PEOPLE KILLED ON 9-11>>>> I ONLY BLAME ONE INSTITUTION FOR IT>>>> "THE FUCKED UP GOVERMENT WE HAVE"... MAYBE IF WE HAD THE COURAGE TO GO OUT AND MAKE OUR VOICES HEARD INSTEAD OF POSTING... IT WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE. THEN AGAIN IT WOULD GET US ALL KILLED BY SOME FUCKED UP AMERICAN POLITICIAN WHO'S AFRAID OF REVOLUTION!!!!!

AND TO ANSWER THE QUESTION WHY THEY HAVE A BAD VIEW OF AMERICANS IN THE WORLD ...WELL THAT'S THANXS TO OUR GRANDFATHERS WHO HAVE AND ARE RUNNING IT WHO HAVE DONE SO MUCH DAMAGE IN OTHER COUNTRIES .. I WISH I COULD TELL THE REST OF THE WORLD THAT THE PEOPLE OF THE US ARE THE LEAST INFORMED OF WHAT REALLY GOES ON ..... AND THAT WE ARE NOT BAD PEOPLE.... AFTER ALL

[dusted]

Breaks ny: please try to be a little less long winded.

I would like to know what makes you such an expert on the Muslim world, the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, or American foreign policy. What, you think because you watch BBC News that you know everything there is to know?

What books have you read on the subject? What have you read about the Israeli side of things?

Why do you think we have to find the root causes of terrorism? Do you think we should have tried to "understand" the root causes of the Nazi's? How about Tim Mcveigh? No everyone was happy to see him put to death. No one was interested in finding anything about him. The liberal media was curiously silent.

Why is it only America that is bound to follow this so called "international law" (which basically only destroys a nations sovereignty)? Does Turkey abide by international law when it comes to slaughtering the Kurds? Does Saudi Arabia abide by international law? Is Zimbabwe following international law?

Or is it a double standard, is the U.S. because we are so powerful supposed to be hobbled?

Why you are so concerned about the treatment of these prisoners is beyond me. Were you this concerned about Timothy McVeigh's treatment. How come no one was screaming that he should have POW status?

Wasn't his act a political statement?

[dusted]

Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2002

Special Dispatch No. 351: Egyptian Columnist: Guantanamo is the Real Auschwitz

An article by Islamist Dr. Rif'at Sayyid Ahmad, titled "Guantanamo, the Auschwitz of the American era: J'accuse!!" recently appeared in the Lebanese daily Al-Liwa. The article described the detention of the Al-Qaida and Taliban members at Guantanamo as a war crime. Following are excerpts from the article:

Guantanamo Bay: 'The American Auschwitz'

"...We always see how human beings prey upon each other, how values are trampled, and how tragedies recur. This is exactly what happened, and is still happening, at the 'American Auschwitz' detention camp...excuse me, I meant the detention camp at Guantanamo Bay!! This is one of the worst deeds of the American era in which we live, and one of the most infamous of its crimes, and will go down in history if [history] is written by men of honor, not by traitors."

"This detention camp reminds me of 'J'accuse' by Emile Zola, who, in 1898, defended Alfred Dreyfus, the French officer of the Jewish faith... This French officer objected to his trial being exploited by the Zionist Jews, led by Herzl. He [also] refused to meet with them because he objected to the Zionist plan and to the establishment of an independent [Jewish] state, and supported Jewish integration into [European] society. He saw [his trial] as fundamentally French, completely unconnected to his religion. This is what spurred Emil Zola to take up the subject in his political-literary article 'J'accuse,' for which he paid a heavy price; he too was sentenced to prison, for a year, for the offense of [publishing] the article..."

"With his article, Emile Zola implanted in the Western conscience principles which, in my opinion, are being completely destroyed today. The first of these is respect for the value of the individual as an individual, regardless of nationality, religion, or the color of his skin. [second,] the value of resistance to oppression, primarily [oppression] by someone who rules and holds power against the weak and who cannot confront him. [Third,] the value of liberty and the risk of depriving the individual of it..."

"It is interesting how perceptions, values, and history have changed from Zola's time to the war crimes now being committed by the U.S., the length and breadth of the world, primarily in Guantanamo. This detention camp is the outcome of the crime of the destruction of Afghanistan (30,000 dead and hundreds of villages destroyed!!)."

"Has the situation changed? History repeats itself, painfully. This time, we are not talking of a single Dreyfus, but of nearly 2,500 Muslim Dreyufuses, placed in iron cages like animals and treated with a cruelty rarely found even among the wild beasts in the jungles. These are the days of the Stone Age, days in which the difference between human beings, stones, and animals has disappeared!!... This is a cruelty that demands more than one Emil Zola to cry out before the arrogant and bloodthirsty master of the world [President Bush]...'J'accuse'!!"

"While Zola accused eight high-ranking generals in the French army...I direct my political and moral accusation at the president of the U.S.; his deputy Dick Cheney, that super-racist Jew; his secretary of state, Colin Powell; his intelligence minister [sic]; his national security advisor; his war ministry staff [sic]; his administration in the White House; British Prime Minister Tony Blair... who played the role of procurer, as did all the ministers and presidents of the European Union countries who have participated in and supported the crime being committed at Guantanamo and who, by their declared collaboration or their open silence, have brought to ruin the values that they claim exist in their civilization – the values of Emil Zola, Montesquieu, Russell, and Toynbee..."

U.S. Committing War Crimes

"We accuse all these of committing, or participating in committing, the crime of war against humanity taking place before their very eyes in Guantanamo, without opening their mouths. They even exacerbate [the crime and create] another Auschwitz, at the beginning of the new century. Auschwitz, for those who don't know, is the detention camp in which, it is claimed, Hitler burned Jews in gas chambers during World War II."

"The stench of their charred skin filled the nose from dozens of kilometers away. Although I do not believe this exaggerated Jewish yarn, the detention camp [at Auschwitz] did indeed exist, and there was a Nazi crime against all of humanity (not only against the Jews, as they claim)... If the stench filled noses for miles around, then [today] the same stench fills the nose of the 'civilized' West, extorted financially, politically, and educationally, as Holocaust studies are mandatory in European schools, as a supreme value that cannot be ignored or denied."

"If indeed this happened in Hitler's Auschwitz, why can't it happen in Bush's Auschwitz?! Could it be because those whose skin burns in the Cuban sun, in the iron cages exposed [to the sun] from all directions – because these men whose humanity is stripped from them, who are turned into 'objects,' neither men nor beasts – are Muslims?! Is the Western conscience dead, and has it sunk to this level of barbarity?..."

"If what happened in the U.S. on September 11, 2001 (which I oppose from the humane point of view, but nothing more) and the disastrous war in Afghanistan that followed, are termed 'the first war of the century,' then what is happening in Guantanamo is worthy of being called 'the first Auschwitz of the century'..."

Bush Administration Does Not Trust Its 'Impotent Homosexual Military'

"The increased security measures and the restrictions placed on the [Guantanamo] detainees expose the fear of the Muslim that dwells in the heart of the American fighter. These also reveal that the American leadership does not trust the abilities of its impotent and homosexual fighters, who fear for their lives, unlike the [Muslim] prisoners who persistently seek martyrdom..."(1)

Is this guy kidding? Is he actually trying to compare Guantanamo Bay to Auschwitz? Guantanomo Bay is too good for these people. On second thought, maybe they should throw them into population in Sing Sing. See how long these motherfuckers last.

[dusted]

[dusted]

Can someone please explain why it is necessary to have children engaging in this? Is it so that when the children get killed, the whole world will be angry that the Israelis murdered some "innocent" children?

[sassa]

Originally posted by raver_mania

Um...exactly which "people" are animals? The government of the US?

Very well said breaksny.

That kind of mentality is what's wrong with the world today....everyone thinks they're better than anyone else...

[roadrunner]

Some things I'd like to clear up:

Whoever-said-there's-no-terrorists-in-India:

They're called Tamils. They claim Sri Lanka is theirs. They are poorly educated and commit suicide bombings often. They recently signed a peace treaty but it probably won't last long, because they have been at war for many years.

Whoever-pointed-to-the-opinionjournal.com:

There's a reason the opinionjournal.com site is free and wsj.com is a pay site. Opinionjournal.com is propaganda. WSJ.com is real news.

Whoever-told-the-chickens-and-rape-story:

This reminds me of the thing I hated most about that movie Traffic. "Oh, well, if the facts don't exactly add up, let's scare 'em with stories about their daughters gettin' raped by colored folk." Fuck you. The only person who's gonna rape your daughter is a sick fucking rapist.

Whoever-was-talikng-shit-to-tOnythelOver:

You got smoked. He isn't happy with the state of his country, and he's STILL going to fight for it. What have you done? Made an ass of yourself.

This is not religious or racial. It's fucking economic. How many of the top 10 richest men in the world are Arabic? I don't know, but I'd wager at least half. The thing they have in common with their rich American counterparts is this: NEITHER WANTS TO GIVE SHIT OF THEIR MONEY TO THEIR POOR COUNTRYMEN. It's greed, pure and simple.

The Middle East doesn't have tourist destinations? How many people go to Mecca each year? Millions and millions.

Nike can't make sneakers in America? How come fucking New Balance can?

Why is gas in America 2 and 3 times cheaper than it is in Europe? Because America dictates the prices that it pays. How? By installing puppet regimes, covertly and overtly. Wouldn't you get a little pissed if someone came in and said they would only give you half of what you're asked for your only natural resource?

And what has America done with it's great natural resources? Squandered them. The greatest farmland on earth, and what do we do with it? We piss it away so a man can't even make a decent living farming anymore. Government subsidies pay for farmers NOT to farm.

The last election proved we barely live in a democracy anymore. I think anyone with half a brain IS making plans to leave the country. This is definitely not the same ountry as WW2, or even the sixties when people protested what was obviously unfair.

[sassa]

Originally posted by dusted

Can someone please explain why it is necessary to have children engaging in this? Is it so that when the children get killed, the whole world will be angry that the Israelis murdered some "innocent" children?

well, what do you expect them to do, sit back and watch their families and friends being murdered in front of them? The Israelis attack...the Palestinians will retaliate and vice versa....it's a vicious cycle of power and struggle.