How Muslim Countries View America

[breaksny]

U know maybe it's just me, but why r u 2 arguing anyway? I thought u were on the same side of the issue. Or am I missing something?

[t0nythelover]

there are more than 2 sides to this issue.

[breaksny]

I meant bigmahs and go411. And obviously there r multiple sides, goes without saying, especially since we're discussing several issues, not one. My bad.

[dusted]

i think the united states is run by old capitalist fucks looking to line their pockets at the expense of others, and that means us too. the us grows enough food to feed the entire world. bet yall didnt know that. yet we still have people starving on the streets. if we were so great there would be no homeless people. how many people have tobacco companies killed, or cars companies that make fucked up products and dont tell anyone. i say its time for a revolution

If you're so concerned about starving homeless people, how about letting one of them move into your huge apartment, and you can feed him and take care of him? How about spending some of your hard earned money, instead of just whining that the government should do something?

Obviously, you have very little respect for people. You think everyone is a victim, as if no one has free will. Tobacco companies don't kill people. No one puts a gun to anyones head and makes them smoke. People who die from lung cancer have no one to blame but themselves. The same applies to drunks and drug addicts.

Its the same stupid attitude that got Twilo closed. Stupid kids who can't handle their drugs or who do GHB die, and Twilo gets the blame. Its fucking bollocks.

.

We were all born with brains. We all have free will. People have to learn that there are consequences to their actions, instead of constantly cloaking themselves in victimhood.

Your entire attitude toward life is just thinly veiled Marxism, except that you just preach but never follow through.

[go411]

IG

Originally posted by breaksny

U know maybe it's just me, but why r u 2 arguing anyway? I thought u were on the same side of the issue. Or am I missing something?

I wasn't arguing .... to begin with. I just replied to BIGMAHS post and then i was ATTACKED for being a tree hugging hippie, feminists, anarchist etc etc .. you give an opinion and then u get BASHED IN HERE....

[t0nythelover]

Originally posted by go411

IG

I wasn't arguing .... to begin with. I just replied to BIGMAHS post and then i was ATTACKED for being a tree hugging hippie, feminists, anarchist etc etc .. you give an opinion and then u get BASHED IN HERE....

i know right, wtf is up with all the bashing.

[nubreedfan]

Originally posted by t0nythelover

i think the united states is run by old capitalist fucks looking to line their pockets at the expense of others, and that means us too. the us grows enough food to feed the entire world. bet yall didnt know that. yet we still have people starving on the streets. if we were so great there would be no homeless people. how many people have tobacco companies killed, or cars companies that make fucked up products and dont tell anyone. i say its time for a revolution.

sounds like the Man is really keeping you down.

[dusted]

Its funny, all of a sudden, the Arabs want a separate Palestinian state. Isn't that what the plan was back in 1947, and the Arabs rejected it? Is anyone here aware that when Israel first declared itself an independent state, that the neighboring Arab countries told the Palestinians to leave their homes to facilitate the slaughter of the Jews in Israel and destroy the Jewish state? And that when Israel took the new territory, the Arabs that lived there fled? To call these people "refugees" is a bit of a stretch. The Arabs that didn't leave are now Israeli citizens. These dopey Palestinians are dupes being used by the other Arab nations as propaganda fodder to eventually destroy Israel. Why do you think none of these nations will take in these Palestinians? Its to these other nations advantage for the Palastinians to be in refugee camps.

As for right of return, I fail to see where there is any. These people left their homes so that the Arabs could more easily kill Jews without spilling any Arab blood in the process, and now they expect the Israelis to roll out the red carpet for them? When countries get attacked by other countries, and subsequently win territory, why are they under any obligation to give it back?

Its quite obvious that the Arabs were opposed to Israel because they wanted all of Palestine (and the rest of the middle east for that matter) to be Arab land. They wanted Jerusalem so that they could keep Jews out of the holy sites, which Jordan did when they controlled East Jerusalem.

It is also interesting to note, that they keep demanding that Israel revert back to their pre 1967 borders, that that is the only issue. If that is true, why then was the PLO (now euphemistically called the PA) formed in 1964, 3 years before the six day war? Its pretty obvious that they are opposed to a Jewish State. They don't want to share land at all with anyone.

Now does anyone REALLY think that Israel going back to the pre 1967 borders is gonna make everything all nice and Brady Bunch-like? Do you REALLY think they are gonna be satisfied with that? What about the right of return? Does anyone really think that they are gonna tolerate living in a Jewish State, that they won't try to topple the government and make it Islamic? I mean COME ON!

What about the 1,000,000 Jews that were expelled from their homes in Arab countries as part of the "population exchange, to make room for Palestinians? How come no one talks about that?

What about the fact that most of these so called "Palestinians" were actually immigrants from neighboring countries that came there because of the economic oportunity that the Jews brought to the area? For instance, Yasser Arafats family came from Egypt. Yet they all try to act like they were there for centuries or something. Give me a break.

[dusted]

sounds like the Man is really keeping you down.

:laugh:

[phuturephunk]

Originally posted by bigmahs

hEY FUTUREPUNK WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THESE PIECES OF GARBAGE WOULD BE HESATANT IN LEVELING THIS COUNTRY. HOW ABOUT BEING AT WORK AND ALL OF SUDDEN IT GOES FROM 50 DEGREES TO A MILLION 5 IN A MILLISECOND. THINK ABOUT IT NO ONE EVER THOUGHT THEY WOULD CRASH TWO AIRLINERS INTO A FUCKING BUILDING RIGHT? THESE PEOPLE ARE CRAZY THEY MUST BE CUT OUT LIKE A CANCER

. . number one : Get my name right . . Number 2 : Aint gonna happen . . .

. . . I hate to say it, but Crashing 2 airliners into two buildings is probably the most brilliant way to strike at us . . The amount of security our country has against rogue nuclear weapons is mind boggling, the pubic knowing about . . oh . . maybe one percent of the true countermeasures that are in place . . . Our government is concerned with stuff of that nature e.g. weapons of mass distruction . . . Hijacking 2 planes and flying them into skyscrapers was the LAST thing that they ever conceived could happen , and plus, they left that type of security to more civic infrastructure agencies like the FAA . . which obviously dropped the ball . . . Nukes are a completely different ball game. . . Do keep in mind that if you happened to come across a parcel of weapons grade plutonium . . the NSA and a whole assortment of other government acronyms would have you delt with before you knew up from down . . . .

[nubreedfan]

Originally posted by t0nythelover

us grows enough food to feed the entire world. bet yall didnt know that. yet we still have people starving on the streets.

Keep kickin' that knowledge, B.

[phuturephunk]

Originally posted by t0nythelover

i think the united states is run by old capitalist fucks looking to line their pockets at the expense of others, and that means us too. the us grows enough food to feed the entire world. bet yall didnt know that. yet we still have people starving on the streets. if we were so great there would be no homeless people. how many people have tobacco companies killed, or cars companies that make fucked up products and dont tell anyone. i say its time for a revolution.

. . . You're exactly right . . which is why I said what I said to Bigmahs when he used the "Survival of the Fittest" line . . He aint it, and if he thinks he is, he's got another thing coming . . .

. . . Dollar signs are power in this country. . there is no substitute. . .the only color that matters is green . . . sad but true . .

[dusted]

Originally posted by t0nythelover

us grows enough food to feed the entire world. bet yall didnt know that. yet we still have people starving on the streets.

That's funny! All I ever see is fat people running around! (or waddling around)

Half of these welfare recipients are morbidly obese! :laugh:

[tribal]

If you're so concerned about starving homeless people, how about letting one of them move into your huge apartment, and you can feed him and take care of him? How about spending some of your hard earned money, instead of just whining that the government should do something?

Obviously, you have very little respect for people. You think everyone is a victim, as if no one has free will. Tobacco companies don't kill people. No one puts a gun to anyones head and makes them smoke. People who die from lung cancer have no one to blame but themselves. The same applies to drunks and drug addicts.

Its the same stupid attitude that got Twilo closed. Stupid kids who can't handle their drugs or who do GHB die, and Twilo gets the blame. Its fucking bollocks.

.

We were all born with brains. We all have free will. People have to learn that there are consequences to their actions, instead of constantly cloaking themselves in victimhood.

Your entire attitude toward life is just thinly veiled Marxism, except that you just preach but never follow through.

completely agree on that.

yo breaks, let me ask you something. why is it so politically accepted among the liberal circles to call the PA areas 'Israeli occupied'?? lets not forget a few things here. after the 93 Oslo accords, the palst were left to manage their own areas in west bank and gaza, with major israeli checkpoints dismantled in those areas. the only checkpoints left were the ones on the israeli border. now to the issue of 'occupied' land. why are those areas 'occupied' anyway? lets take alook now. after the 67 war, the arab coalition was humiliatingly defeated on the battlefield, and after jordan attacked israel, the israelis fought back and ran over jordanian positions stationed in east jersualem and west bank. the cease fire was signed with israelis in full control of those areas. now let me ask you this question. i control all of New York, you control Essex County in NJ. I attack you, thinking i can wipe you out from the face of the earth, yet you prove to be a capable fighter and in the end, i lose Manhattan, and sign a cease fire. now how can i go up to you and say to your face, 'Hey give me back my Manhattan, youre an occupier', when it was me that attacked you in the first place. youre thinking about this conflict from a pure palst point of view. try incorporating the israeli side into it.

[tribal]

oh and breaks, re: the PA - Hezbola connection

i think youre quite naive in your view of PA

heres an exerp from debkafile, an intelligence news site

--------------------

On December 31, 2001, DEBKAfile revealed that Richard Reid, the “shoe bomber” who attempted to blow up an American Airlines Paris-Miami flight on December 22, spent ten days the previous July in the Gaza Strip Jebalya district, as the guest of the Hamas military arm activist Nabil Aqal. Also revealed was that Aqal received from the Palestinian Authority’s Gaza Strip security chief Mohamed Dahlan a quantity of C-4 explosive spiked according to an al Qaeda formula for boosting its blast effect.

The formula reached the Gaza Strip with the Hizballah cells Arafat imported from Lebanon in the fall of 2000. Aqal handed the deadly substance to Reid.

Nearly two months ago, therefore, Dahlan was known to have manufactured upgraded C-4, the very explosive found in Reid’s shoes and now identified as the substance used to blow up the Merkava tank.

Both came from the same source: PA officer Dahlan working to an al Qaeda formula!

Friday night, February 15, Israel television Channel 2’s Arab Affairs Commentator Ehud Ya’ari revealed that Dahlan’s security forces had joined forces with the Hamas military arm in the operation against the Merkava tank. Within seconds, Dahlan was on the phone to Channel 2 demanding that Yaari retract his “lies”. Yaari stuck to his guns and repeated his story.

The Palestinian security chief jerked into action because the television disclosure was a giveaway. His hand in blowing up the tank was exposed and. It was only a step before the explosive was named as the upgraded C-4 formula found in the shoes of the al Qaeda bomber. Add to this that Dahlan is famous for not blowing his nose without permission from his boss, PA Chairman Yasser Arafat, and the link to al Qaeda goes straight to the top.

This disclosure is at least as damning as the smuggled arms cargo aboard the Karine-A – which is why Dahlan was so desperate to suppress it.

---------------------

breaks think about it. 2 years ago, barak left s. lebanon due to the heavy cost (financially/militarily) of maintaing troops there. the hezbola saw this as a military victory. they are now working closely with PA groups at attacking israeli civilians and soldiers. that tank explosive had the same chemical characteristics as the explosives the israelis had to deal with in lebanon. what many people here dont understand, is that attempting to deal with arafat for a fair and equitable peace is futile. youre dealing with a proven terrorist, a man unable to compromise on a shared future. kind of like sharon. i dont like sharon much either.

[bigmahs]

Originally posted by phuturephunk

. . number one : Get my name right . . Number 2 : Aint gonna happen . . .

. . . I hate to say it, but Crashing 2 airliners into two buildings is probably the most brilliant way to strike at us . . The amount of security our country has against rogue nuclear weapons is mind boggling, the pubic knowing about . . oh . . maybe one percent of the true countermeasures that are in place . . . Our government is concerned with stuff of that nature e.g. weapons of mass distruction . . . Hijacking 2 planes and flying them into skyscrapers was the LAST thing that they ever conceived could happen , and plus, they left that type of security to more civic infrastructure agencies like the FAA . . which obviously dropped the ball . . . Nukes are a completely different ball game. . . Do keep in mind that if you happened to come across a parcel of weapons grade plutonium . . the NSA and a whole assortment of other government acronyms would have you delt with before you knew up from down . . . .

What about the former Soviet Union. The russian mob raped and pillaged that gov't when it came down. The General from Russia said they are missing a 10 kiloton bomb! The only thing is I can't see a sane person from russia hand it over toa Laundry head with out thinking this sick fuck would actually use it.

[bigmahs]

Originally posted by go411

IG

I wasn't arguing .... to begin with. I just replied to BIGMAHS post and then i was ATTACKED for being a tree hugging hippie, feminists, anarchist etc etc .. you give an opinion and then u get BASHED IN HERE....

CAN WE JUST SAY .... FUCK THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT!!

WE THE YOUTH SHOULD BE RUNNING THIS COUNTRY.. NOT SOME CAPITALIST, GREEDY OLD FARTS WTF.... ALL MY TAX MONEY USED ON BULLSHIT WARS AND KILLINGS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE.... HOW ABOUT THE LIFES OF ALL THOSE PEOPLE KILLED ON 9-11>>>> I ONLY BLAME ONE INSTITUTION FOR IT>>>> "THE FUCKED UP GOVERMENT WE HAVE"... MAYBE IF WE HAD THE COURAGE TO GO OUT AND MAKE OUR VOICES HEARD INSTEAD OF POSTING... IT WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE. THEN AGAIN IT WOULD GET US ALL KILLED BY SOME FUCKED UP AMERICAN POLITICIAN WHO'S AFRAID OF REVOLUTION!!!

This is why I bashed you, no hard feelings I just don't agree.

THIS IS THE UNITED STATES YOU BASH IT YOU BASH ALL

[t0nythelover]

i agree that it is the governments fault, why does that deserve bashing?

[breaksny]

You think I'm naive? Haha. God where are you seeing a connection between a Lebanese resistance movement and the PA? Sure maybe they provide moral and some military support, but I'm not aware of any significant links between Hizbollah and Fatah. Doesn't Hizbollah receive most of its military support from Iran and Syria anyway? They make statements condemning the occupation and saying lets wage a jihad or whatever, but the strikes they make into Israel are either independently made, or with tacit Syrian support. What does this have to do with the PA? And how can you accuse me naivete in that regard? On what grounds am I naive? The thing is, supposing even you're right...you're making connections that seem to do the thing you always do of lumping all nations in the Middle East that aren't Israel together in some conspiracy that they're out to destroy Israel's existence. Where exactly do you come up with that garbage? Or are you just another right wing conspiracy theorist? Hizbollah is not the PA, get that into you thick skull, it's a different country, and really I don't even know why I'm talking to you about them. Of course Hizbollah regarded its victory as a victory over Israeli occupation, so do I. Sure they'd love to drive Israel out of the territories too, and sure they are willing to provide some military support to the PA. But you seem to think this makes the PA an organization trying to destroy Israel, or linked to Al Qaeda. Do you really think Arafat is so stupid that he would be calling for negotiations, as he has been for the last 2 years, do you think he even would've agreed to accept the creation of a small weak state in the territories in the 1st if he'd known Israel would use the entire negotiating period to stall and stall and stall some more like they did for more than 5 years? Further, do you think he'd jeopardize his life on this far from optimal agreement if he thought it would possibly end in the end of his political career, possibly his life as well, the destruction of his government, and possibly the reoccupation of the territories as those on the far right in Israel are now advocating?

YOur statement on the territories and raising a question as to why they're called "the occupied territories" more shows your naivete of the issues involved in this conflict. The PA has complete control presently of less than a fifth of the land in the territories, and shared control with Israel of maybe another 20% or so. I don't even think the total figure is even 40% I can look it up if you want, but it's a small minority. The rest is still under Israeli control. And these are scattered chunks of land, not even physically next to one another. God Gaza and the West Bank even are an hour apart, let alone the pieces within each territory, partiularly within the West Bank. And as your well aware if you know anything about the conditions on the ground, Israel has effectively carved up the territories via settlements, roads, security cooridors, and since the 2nd intifada has begun, blockades, sieges, security checkpoints, and numerous other obstacles to a fully functioning territory. Take the city of Hebron before the 2nd Intifada began. The entire city of 100,000 Palestinians had its lifestyle affected so a few hundred settlers could go about their lives under Israeli military protection.

Your evidence of cooperation between the PA and Hezbollah may have some truth to it. The thing is, you say the peace was fair and equitable. Upon what basis do you make that assessment? How can you say the Barak offer was fair in equitable when I've clearly proven numerous times before it wasn't? The entire Oslo process wasn't....I mean god Israel has the fuckin Atom Bomb and the best armaments in world, supplied by US. What do the Palestinians have militarily by comparison? How can you say the balance of power between the 2 peoples is even equitable when the Israeli standard of living is 10 times higher in Israel than in Palestine? You also accuse me inaccurately of not acknowledging any suffering or having any understanding of the Israeli side of the conflict. You just spouting hot air in saying that when it's so patently obvious which side is suffering far more in this regard. Yes I take the Palestinian side b/c people like you equate Sharon with Arafat...it's not the same, Arafat's not a war criminal, not anymore. He was never considered for genocide charges the way sharon is being so considered now. What part of that don't you understand? I've likewise demonstrated that when you say Arafat can't compromise, you are again spouting hot air. The best Israel offer didn't meet the minimal Palestinian redlines for the creation of a viable state. The thing is it's so patently clear which side is in the wrong to a greater degree here, and has been since the creation of the state of Israel, and certainly since 1967. And to answer your final question in regard to why the territories are called occupied, b/c as you said that war was waged between Jordan, Egypt, and their allies against Israel. It was not fought by an organization seeking to establish an independent Palestinian state. The Jordanians and the Egyptians were as socially repressive in the territories to the Palestinians, as the Israelis are now, and as the British and Ottomans were before them. The Palestinians are clearly occupied as they have been for 3.5 decades and what they want is basically what Prince Abdullah's plan is asking for. That's where things will wind up eventually anyway. That wasn't what Rabin or Barak offered, and it certainly wasn't as close as most in America or Israel make it out to be. This is the root cause of the conflict. It will remain a source of tension until it is resolved.

[dusted]

Well why didn't they want it in 1947?

The First Arab-Israeli War: Troops from Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan invaded Israel on May 15, 1948. The Israelis halted them. Israel occupied West Jerusalem.

The Arabs still refused to recognize the existence of Israel, and continued their threats to destroy it.

The Second Arab-Israeli War: Egypt raided Israel from the Gaza Strip, the Egyptian-occupied part of Palestine. In 1956 they seized control of the Suez Canal, and were preventing Israeli ships from using it.

Israel invaded Egypt, and occupied the Gaza Strip.

The Six Day War: Egypt closed the Gulf of Abaqa to Israeli ships.

On June 5 1967, Israeli planes attacked Egypt, Jordan and Syria (who had been attacking Israel continuously), and wiped out their air forces. They then occupied The Gaza Strip, The Sinai Peninsula, and Jordanian territory, including East Jerusalem.

Now, if that isn't enough to get through to you that yes, these Arab nations

are in a conspiracy to destroy Israel, then I don't know what will. They were attacked from the Gaza Strip, therefore it is certainly reasonable not to give that area up, which would hurt their security. In any case they won it fair and square, just like they won everything fair and square.

Why are they insisting on the right to return to a country they despise? So they can destroy it from within, of course.

[breaksny]

Again more irrelevant historical discussion. Please...Eqypt and Jordan both have peace treaties with Israel now, ones they basically can't break since they're dependent on the US for military and other aid, aid which will only be kept if they stay @ peace with Israel. Those agreements are more or less permenant as long as the existing regimes stay in power. That doesn't seem likely to change anytime soon. Syria is not a serious security threat to Israel at this time, except through its proxies in Lebanon, Hizbollah, and the dissident PLO factions it supports against Israel. And none of these nations controls the PA, which is now an autonomous para-statelet of its own. Any of you read today's times anyway? Headline: "Syria Chief Backs Saudi Peace Plan as Mideast Boils" It's just a statement of principles, but it's a crucial one if it holds. Abdullah appears able to deliver all states bordering Israel to agree to his proposal if Israel does as well. It's only a single step, but a crucial one. Your idea of some sort of conspiracy is an historical relic no longer rooted in reality. Get with the program.

[dusted]

."...I mean god Israel has the fuckin Atom Bomb and the best armaments in world, supplied by US. What do the Palestinians have militarily by comparison? How can you say the balance of power between the 2 peoples is even equitable when the Israeli standard of living is 10 times higher in Israel than in Palestine? "

How can you say that the balance of power is in Israels favor when Israel is a flea speck on the map surrounded by hostile Arab nations that have weapons of mass destruction? And Israel is being reigned in by the rest of the world, who think that Israel doesn't have the right to defend itself.

Come on now, get out your magnifying glass and see if you can find little teensy weensy Israel.

[dusted]

So history is irrelevant now?

[t0nythelover]

i think israel has too much power. and i dont like the israelis going into refugee camps. thats terrorism too but no one calls it that.

[breaksny]

Can someone explain to me why so many of you are defensive about criticism of Israel? You seem to be more paranoid about its security than Israelis themselves. O and to answer you dusted, look how much smaller the territories are. Ever thought of that? You're aware Israel has unconditional military, economic, and political support from the US anyway, it's by far the only nation in the region with a 1st world standard of living based upon more than energy resources or financial services. Calling the Gulf monarchies 1st world nations would be questionable anyway. And as I've said time and again and any military expert will tell you, Israel has one of the 5 most powerful militaries in the world. No nation or organization in the region can challenge that. What makes you think the neighboring nations aren't all prevented by numerous factors from ever conquering Israel anyway? They've tried that and failed 3 times as you said. The only countries that may still think otherwise are Libya or Iraq. And remember, no one else in the region has the bomb. As I said, get with the program.

Fair enough I shouldn'tve said history is irrelevant, but I don't see the point of the wars you're bringing up. Those alliances with such aims don't exist anymore. The world has changed. Israel is far more powerful than it was even in the early 70s and the gap between it and the other nations in the region has only grown over time. And one other thing. No one's denying Israel's right to defend itself. Slaughter and military occupation of land that isn't yours isn't self defense, it's aggression, and well, slaughter.