suicide bombers head (pic)

[dp80]

moonshine what school are you taking this class at? im at suny albany, the professor has taught in a few different countries too. seriously i hate going to class, especially being a senior, but this class is so interesting, i dont mind being there.

[djmoonshine]

hey... umm i go to suny binghamton...

[dusted]

Originally posted by karch

What are you talking about????? Tons of muslims around the world and especially the USA condemn suicide bombers. I have many many many muslim friends and not 1 of them agree with "suicide bombing" idea.

And to me there's no difference between a muslim man blowing up a street by strapping a bomb on himself killing innocent civilians or a Israeli tank bulldozing down homes on a street and killing innocent civilians.

Thats because you haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about. I haven't heard many Muslims condemning suicide bombers. Certainly none of their leaders have. The subject has gotten a lukewarm response at best from most Muslims.

Now, you are saying that there's no difference between a legitimate army defending itself against terrorist enemies who want to destroy them, and terrorists who DELIBERATELY attack civilians of a nation in the hopes of wearing down that countries morale and will to exist?

Basically, you think legitimate armies are the moral equivalent to terrorists.

[karch]

Originally posted by djmoonshine

Hmmm... gonna have to disagree with you there my friend... I'm taking a class as well in school about terrorism and war, which was developed after 9/11. We've read an assortment of books, as well as recieving various lectures from world renowned professors and it is true that these people blowing themselves do really believe that they are going to heaven where they will be surrounded by virgins. To them, these acts of martydom is showing their ultimate faith to Allah. But these are men who affiliate with Al-Qaeda and they've distorted words of the prophet Muhhamad to condone their actions. Whether or not every Muslim in the world believes this or not, I'm not sure because I don't know enough about the Koran and such, but I do know that these extremists did believe that when they drove those planes into the towers.

Yes, we view them as sick fucks and extremists, but i dunno... After taking this class and learning more about the background of our relationships with countries in the Middle East, it makes you think that maybe the United States had a hand in creating our situation today.

I agree with everything you say. THose people that crashed those planes into the buildings did think they were going to paradise. But ofcourse they were misled. And about the US having a hand in creating our situation today. Yeah I agree with that also. But that's a whole different subject. But even if that is true, those guys that crashed the plane into the WTC are still sick fucks. I don't really believe in eye for an eye.

[karch]

Originally posted by tribal

there is a fundamental flaw with the Arab world that condones and even encourages the actions as seen by that asshole's head on the pavement. Yes not all muslims/arabs support that, BUT enough do, for it to be considered a problem. As ive said before, i think the arab world needs their own Renaissance-like turning point, where they stop preaching anti western/israeli hate, arm their kids with 'martyr' propaganda and develop viable industries and fucking educate their people. how long can the entire region sit on its ass, bitch about 'american imperialism' and the evil zionists, before picking themselves up and trying to improve their situation. the way they are going right now is sadly not going to improve a thing. the region is in the dark ages at this point.

I totally agree with you on that. They need to build there countries up. ANd they very well can. Many arab countries have all that oil wealth. But they need to have a thing where they could work together. Build a good education base for all there citizens, industrialize. They need new leadership. Most leaders in the arab world really mostly care only about themselves. If they stay in power and they themselves are rich. There all good. INstead of complaining about how bad the US and Israel is they should look at themselves. Especially the leaders. But then again you gotta look at it that they've been getting fucked up the ass by europe and western powers for a few hundred years. But I think instead of preaching hate about the west. They need to first help themselves.

[karch]

Originally posted by malone

Mohammed himself engaged in the wholesale slaughter of his "enemies", and much mention is made in the Quoran of destroying the enemy, holy war, subjugation of the unbelievers, and what have you. The question then becomes: Who is really "perverting" Islam-- guys like the suicide bombers who have much grounds for believing that they are following in the footsteps of Mohammed, or those who ignore the inconvenient history of their religion's founder, and proceed as if Islam was nothing more than ministrations to the souls of the faithful? This nonsense smacks of willful self-delusion.

The problem with that. You are saying the truth but not the WHOLE truth. ANd I think that's where most of the misconceptions of the muslim religon comes in. But I don't think they was anything about the "wholesale slaughter of his enemies." Yes they did believe in holy war and killing the enemy(the non-believers). But keep in mind. That's just one little part of it. You gotta explain everything not just one thing. Because in the Koran it also states, NOT to kill INNOCENT CIVILIANS. Killing soldiers in a holy war is alright. Cuase that's what a war is... soldiers killing attacking each other. But not one place int he Koran does it justify killing innocent civilians. It's sad that these "terrorist" think they are doing a holy cause. But they are not.

[karch]

Originally posted by dusted

Basically, you think legitimate armies are the moral equivalent to terrorists.

No I think any way you kill innocent civilians weather it be "armies" or "terrorists." But those "armies" to me are terrorists. Armies are supposed to kill soldiers not innocent civilians. Bombs that drop out of the sky and hit someones home and murders a whole family. Is just as unexpected and devestating as a suicide bomber in the middle of the street blowing up a family. They have different ways of getting there, but they both have the same result.

[cintron]

Originally posted by dp80

moonshine what school are you taking this class at? im at suny albany, the professor has taught in a few different countries too. seriously i hate going to class, especially being a senior, but this class is so interesting, i dont mind being there.

Hey dude i'm right up the road hvcc.

(trying to get back into RPI).

As for this holy war bullshit... people can debate it all they want about the morality/immorality and whether we did/did not have a hand in initiating this shit.

fact is: we don't go to THEIR country and blow up THEIR shit b/c we have grievances against them. if we did, we'd let them know well ahead of time they're pissing us off FIRST.

Second, anybody who kills people just to make a point ain't no hero in my book.

And Third... i personally don't give a fuck about arabs. If they want to live their lives as they do, fine. Everyone should live how they want to live. But i'm sick of the constant violence and shit that goes on, esp being as many of them live in some of the holiest land on this earth. It's pure blasphemy but of course they're so fixed on yelling INSHALLAH and all that other anti westerner go with god blowup the infidel raghead bullshit, they''ve forgotten the notion of "love".

Is there such a thing in their world? it doesn't seem like it.

[malone]

The problem with that. You are saying the truth but not the WHOLE truth. ANd I think that's where most of the misconceptions of the muslim religon comes in. But I don't think they was anything about the "wholesale slaughter of his enemies." Yes they did believe in holy war and killing the enemy(the non-believers). But keep in mind. That's just one little part of it. You gotta explain everything not just one thing. Because in the Koran it also states, NOT to kill INNOCENT CIVILIANS. Killing soldiers in a holy war is alright. Cuase that's what a war is... soldiers killing attacking each other. But not one place int he Koran does it justify killing innocent civilians. It's sad that these "terrorist" think they are doing a holy cause. But they are not.

__________________

Now, now. Do I have to go through all this again, as I did on another thread? Let's cut through all the mush, shall we, and stop pretending that we're on some panel discussion where everyone has to act like we're tasked we making little sterile, inoffensive pronouncements. The reality is that Muhammed did slaughter countless of his "enemies", many of whom never were in an opposing army, and were frankly butchered because Mohammed felt like it. Now that's the whole story, and you don't seem to want to acknowledge that fact. Why?? Why the deception? You say you know this "because in the Koran, it states not to kill innocent civilians". Well I guess Mohammed had special dispensation, being God's special envoy and all. I mean, that's got to count for something, right? Besides, the koran, like the bible is full if contradictions. Or maybe it is simply possible that the loophole is the word "innocent" civilian. After all these darn Infedils can't be all that "innocent", if they have regected God and his prophet. The Muslim world needs to do some serious reevaluation, if it's ever to realize peace with other communities. It must be forced to confront its demons. It doesn't need any more apologists doing its bidding for it.

[tribal]

no promises of paradise? take a look at this

LONDON (March 25) - The suicide bombers of the Aksa Martyrs' Brigade are educated, middle-class, and led by a second-year university student in international relations, according to Lebanese Muslim writer Hala Jaber, who recently spent four days with the group.

In an article published in the London Sunday Times yesterday, Jaber, author of a book on Hizbullah, provided a unique insight into the profile, recruitment, and mind-set of the killers.

She described traveling to Gaza, where she was blindfolded and driven for 20 minutes to a secret location for her meeting with brigade leader Abu Fatah and a group of brigade members, two of whom have been selected for the next suicide attacks.

When she arrived and the blindfold was removed, she found herself in a room strewn with cushions and loosely covered sponge mattresses. Pictures of the Aksa Mosque adorned the walls, and heavy floral curtains blocked the windows.

Shortly afterward, a group of brigade members arrived - all masked, dressed in military fatigues, and carrying Kalashnikov rifles - and sat on the cushions around an oil lamp that illuminated the room.

Abu Fatah said the Aksa Martyrs' Brigade, which is loyal to Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat, has no shortage of volunteers.

He said a specialist unit is responsible for selecting candidates; another unit is responsible for selecting targets.

Anyone younger than 18 is disqualified, as are married men with children and anyone without a sibling who may be a family's sole breadwinner. Only those who "excel militarily and show steely composure in stressful situations" are likely to be chosen, Abu Fatah said.

The young men must be reasonably religious and understand the meaning of "martyrdom and jihad." They should also be of a build and shape that will enable them to mingle with Israelis, disguised if necessary in a kippa and wig with payot(side curls), as they wait for the moment to strike.

Abu Fatah observes candidates over several days as they go about their business in public and at home. If his assessment is "positive," he informs them of their selection.

This is followed by an intense 20-day period of religious study and discussion between Abu Fatah and each candidate, as verses from the Koran about a martyr's attainment of paradise are constantly recited.

"The candidate," wrote Jaber, "is reminded of the good fortune that awaits him in the presence of prophets and saints, of the unimaginable beauty of the houri, or beautiful young woman, who will welcome him, and of the chance he will have to intercede on behalf of 70 loved ones on doomsday. Not least, he is told of the service he will perform for his fellow countrymen with his sacrifice."

"Of course, I am deeply saddened when I have to use a suicide attacker," Abu Fatah said. "I am very emotional and at times I cry when I say good-bye to them. These are educated men who... would have had the potential of being constructive members of society."

When the bomber's preparations are complete, another member of the unit arrives to accompany him on the final journey to his target.

While his fate has been well-established, the suicide bomber is told the precise nature of the attack only minutes before the operation - whether he will be a bomber or whether he will attack a target with grenades and guns until he is shot dead.

If he is to be a suicide bomber, he straps on a hand-tailored vest filled with about 10 kilos of explosive and five kilos of nails and metal about 15 minutes before being dropped off at his target. At that stage, he is then given his final instructions about the precise point at which he should detonate himself.

"The later he knows, the better for the martyr, since he will not have much time to think of the target nor to experience doubts," Abu Fatah said.

[kramadas]

Originally posted by karch

The problem with that. You are saying the truth but not the WHOLE truth. ANd I think that's where most of the misconceptions of the muslim religon comes in. But I don't think they was anything about the "wholesale slaughter of his enemies." Yes they did believe in holy war and killing the enemy(the non-believers). But keep in mind. That's just one little part of it. You gotta explain everything not just one thing. Because in the Koran it also states, NOT to kill INNOCENT CIVILIANS. Killing soldiers in a holy war is alright. Cuase that's what a war is... soldiers killing attacking each other. But not one place int he Koran does it justify killing innocent civilians. It's sad that these "terrorist" think they are doing a holy cause. But they are not.

Karch - its no use...I've quoted him stuff from the Quran saying the same, but he just loves to take things out of context.

[malone]

Karch - its no use...I've quoted him stuff from the Quran saying the same, but he just loves to take things out of context.

It's not that it's no use, It's that you were no use. You flunked the test. Sorry. Maybe this chap has more manners than you, thus ensuring a broadening of the debate. The bulk of your contribution consisted of name-calling, interspersed with the standard left-wing part line. I can get that any day of the week in "the Nation", minus the invective. Besides, didn't you promise you wouldn't be dealing with Dusted or me again, as you allegedly had better things to do. But I guess you can't resist sniping from the sidelines.

[dr0ne]

Originally posted by tribal

no promises of paradise? take a look at this

LONDON (March 25) - The suicide bombers of the Aksa Martyrs' Brigade are educated, middle-class, and led by a second-year university student in international relations, according to Lebanese Muslim writer Hala Jaber, who recently spent four days with the group.

In an article published in the London Sunday Times yesterday, Jaber, author of a book on Hizbullah, provided a unique insight into the profile, recruitment, and mind-set of the killers.

She described traveling to Gaza, where she was blindfolded and driven for 20 minutes to a secret location for her meeting with brigade leader Abu Fatah and a group of brigade members, two of whom have been selected for the next suicide attacks.

When she arrived and the blindfold was removed, she found herself in a room strewn with cushions and loosely covered sponge mattresses. Pictures of the Aksa Mosque adorned the walls, and heavy floral curtains blocked the windows.

Shortly afterward, a group of brigade members arrived - all masked, dressed in military fatigues, and carrying Kalashnikov rifles - and sat on the cushions around an oil lamp that illuminated the room.

Abu Fatah said the Aksa Martyrs' Brigade, which is loyal to Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat, has no shortage of volunteers.

He said a specialist unit is responsible for selecting candidates; another unit is responsible for selecting targets.

Anyone younger than 18 is disqualified, as are married men with children and anyone without a sibling who may be a family's sole breadwinner. Only those who "excel militarily and show steely composure in stressful situations" are likely to be chosen, Abu Fatah said.

The young men must be reasonably religious and understand the meaning of "martyrdom and jihad." They should also be of a build and shape that will enable them to mingle with Israelis, disguised if necessary in a kippa and wig with payot(side curls), as they wait for the moment to strike.

Abu Fatah observes candidates over several days as they go about their business in public and at home. If his assessment is "positive," he informs them of their selection.

This is followed by an intense 20-day period of religious study and discussion between Abu Fatah and each candidate, as verses from the Koran about a martyr's attainment of paradise are constantly recited.

"The candidate," wrote Jaber, "is reminded of the good fortune that awaits him in the presence of prophets and saints, of the unimaginable beauty of the houri, or beautiful young woman, who will welcome him, and of the chance he will have to intercede on behalf of 70 loved ones on doomsday. Not least, he is told of the service he will perform for his fellow countrymen with his sacrifice."

"Of course, I am deeply saddened when I have to use a suicide attacker," Abu Fatah said. "I am very emotional and at times I cry when I say good-bye to them. These are educated men who... would have had the potential of being constructive members of society."

When the bomber's preparations are complete, another member of the unit arrives to accompany him on the final journey to his target.

While his fate has been well-established, the suicide bomber is told the precise nature of the attack only minutes before the operation - whether he will be a bomber or whether he will attack a target with grenades and guns until he is shot dead.

If he is to be a suicide bomber, he straps on a hand-tailored vest filled with about 10 kilos of explosive and five kilos of nails and metal about 15 minutes before being dropped off at his target. At that stage, he is then given his final instructions about the precise point at which he should detonate himself.

"The later he knows, the better for the martyr, since he will not have much time to think of the target nor to experience doubts," Abu Fatah said.

One thing I never really understood in these cases is why suicide? I mean if the guy is going to blow up a bus, why not just plant the explosive under the seat with a remote controlled detonator, get off on the next stop and push the button. Sure that wouldn't have worked for 9/11 but for these instances you read about suicide bombers in israel you wonder. I can only conclude that these people truly truly believe that what they are doing is that most honorable thing they could possibly do.