Feelings on smoking ban in bars/clubs as of Nov.19th!!!

[barvybe]

Guys, I never said that there aren't arguments on the other side. Just that arguing that no one has ever won a case for damages against ETS is BS. And the settlements in CA and FL are not cases in Britain and Europe. As for the NJ case, you're right, I don't know what happened...just mentioned that there was pending legislation and litigation.

As for the Omnibus Act: We'll have to see how that applies to ETS as people begin to sue. The Omnibus Act seems to apply to on the job injuries of a physcial nature due to force. While I'm not going to run a search on it its my understanding that compensation has been returned to employees who have become ill due to improperly handled asbestos...as legislation is passed, if employers don't comply similar suits could occur. The Omnibus Act is in place to protect employers from accidents that occur in the normal course of business and are assumed risks is it not?

Also, if an employer doesn't comply with an employee's request for a smoke free work environment they can be sued for subsequent illnesses regardless of the Omnibus amendment(http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:DAIC3g55Oz4C:www.hrcomply.com/pdfs/books_samplefl.pdf+workers+compensation+ets+new+york&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)

Also here is an exerpt from indicating that NY residents have qualified for workers comp due to ETS: http://www.legalsurvival.com/Workers_Compensation/

Workers' comp for secondhand smoke. Employees in New York, California, Florida, Kansas, Massachusetts, New Mexico and Wisconsin have qualified for workers' comp for lung cancer, emphysema, asthma and chronic bronchitis caused by secondhand smoke. Awards have been made in the following situations: Flight attendants for bronchial conditions, pleurisy and allergies from exposure to passengers smoking. A waiter suffered a heart attack after working in a smoky bar. A hospital worker died of lung cancer. Office worker hospitalized for severe asthma attack and lung infection. Prison workers breathing problems exacerbated. Engineer with allergy to tobacco smoke collapsed after being transferred to an office where half the employees smoked. Budget analysis developed multiple chemical sensitivity from exposure to pipe tobacco. City officer worker treated for bronchial asthma aggravated by working in a poorly-ventilated office. Accountant fired for absenteeism due to ailments.

And there have been cases where NY employees have won criminal and civil cases against their employers for non immediate death (such as exposure to mercury without proper precautions) since the employer was found to be grossly negligent. Since ETS is considered a class A carcinogin such suits could occur regarding it as well.

As for the other studies that make compelling cases against the harmful nature of ETS: its difficult to make a credible argument that ANY amount of a class A carginogen is NOT bad for you. I agree that there are many studies that contradict and call others in question. Its also true that the cigarette companies through way more money into studies and propoganda about this than the anti - ETS side. And it is also true that the vast majority of scientists and doctors agree that ETS is bad for you even though all the studies haven't come in yet (since its difficult to eliminate other possible causes from an ETS study since we aren't rats confined in smokey rooms). However, bartenders are close to that and here's the results of just one such study which provides good annecdotal evidence: http://www.cleanlungs.com/education/say_no.html

Personally, I feel that the case against ETS is pretty good: the evidence of the harm to children, for which there has been much more research, is pretty strong. Also, common sense tells us that any particulate matter we inhale is not good for us, whether it is fire smoke, ciggy smoke, coal dust, industrial smoke, etc.

As for the car stuff: you're absolutely right. However, just like the ciggarette industry there are 100's of billions of dollars and jobs at stake and our government tends to cater to big business. All of what you say will likely happen eventually. However, the switching costs have automakers and oil companies lobbying fiercely.

[Twilo Beauty]

Originally posted by brooklynkid

Stating the obvious is your strength, I can see. What? we outlaw things that harm people? What an idea! Pick a side, yo!

I wouldn't have to state the obvious if your arguments were (wt the very least) good. You always miss essential points and that always leaves room for attack!

-iliana

[Twilo Beauty]

Originally posted by barvybe

gee thanks!

the point is you can go out clubbing and not deal with people drinking alcohol already. I'm sure we're all aware of the law on this one, but its good to see you found something you can cite accurately

That was your point? Well, learn how to word your statement. You never metnioned "you can go out clubbing and not deal with alcohol"

And if that's your point..telling people who don't like alcohol to come after 4 am then don't blast me for telling people to move over or not walk into a bar if smoke irritates them that much!

-iliana

[sugar_n_spice]

Originally posted by cesarleo

As of Nov. 19th it is 99% certain there will be a ban on smoking in bars and clubs. How do you feel about this. Personally I'm getting to hate this mayor more and more. There's a whole list of problems I have with this......including the fact that now the gov. is trying to dictate our lives without enabling us to make our own decisions.

I think its a bunch of bullshit.

You want clean air-Go live in the fuckin country. I'm sure there are worse things we breathe in every day than my little cigarette.

It is my choice to smoke. I don't believe I should be told where and when I can smoke.

[barvybe]

sorry, computer froze

[barvybe]

"That was your point? Well, learn how to word your statement. You never metnioned "you can go out clubbing and not deal with alcohol"

Uh Iliana: in the context of the person i was responding to's origninal statement that exactly what "there already are clubs that don't allow drinking (Arc for example) and after hours clubs (SF, etc.) you can go at 6am and there's no alcohol around." means.

"And if that's your point..telling people who don't like alcohol to come after 4 am then don't blast me for telling people to move over or not walk into a bar if smoke irritates them that much!"

why are you so silly? they have nothing to do with each other. the alcohol one had to do with the guy not liking the rowdiness of people when they are drunk compared to when they are sober. the smoking thing has nothing to do with whether other people like you, it has to do with the smoke in the air. are you really so dumb that you don't get this?

1. if i have a drink on one side of the room the alcohol does NOT diffuse throughout the room and poison someone on the otherside's liver.

2. there's no such thing as 2nd hand alcohol poisoning so you can't compare ETS issues with drinking issues

3. if you want to use the clubs and drinking as a direct comparison to how smoking should be handled then don't smoke in Arc and stop smoking at 4am everytime you go out. but really i was just addressing a separate issue about how the guy didn't like the way drunk people acted (not how people with drinks in their hands act, but drunk people.)

[brooklynkid]

Originally posted by sugar_n_spice

I think its a bunch of bullshit.

You want clean air-Go live in the fuckin country. I'm sure there are worse things we breathe in every day than my little cigarette.

It is my choice to smoke. I don't believe I should be told where and when I can smoke.

You should read the previous 19 pages of this thread. It's a lot more than just being told when you can smoke.

Pete and Eddie: just want to thank you guys for bringing some intelligence into this thread. Hopefully some CP members will learn something, regardless of which side they are one. Some people only know how to cry about it as if mom and dad won't lend them the car for the night.

[Twilo Beauty]

Originally posted by barvybe

why are you so silly? they have nothing to do with each other. the alcohol one had to do with the guy not liking the rowdiness of people when they are drunk compared to when they are sober. the smoking thing has nothing to do with whether other people like you, it has to do with the smoke in the air. are you really so dumb that you don't get this?

1. if i have a drink on one side of the room the alcohol does NOT diffuse throughout the room and poison someone on the otherside's liver.

2. there's no such thing as 2nd hand alcohol poisoning so you can't compare ETS issues with drinking issues

3. if you want to use the clubs and drinking as a direct comparison to how smoking should be handled then don't smoke in Arc and stop smoking at 4am everytime you go out. but really i was just addressing a separate issue about how the guy didn't like the way drunk people acted (not how people with drinks in their hands act, but drunk people.)

Hun, if you have to resort to repeating the same thing over and over again, then you're not doing a good job in defending your argument. Remember, YOU brought the comparison: "the point is you can go out clubbing and not deal with people drinking alcohol already." as compared to what? Non -smokers going out and not finding refuge from second hand smoke????

This issue has NEVER been about people not like "smokers'. I'm glad you finally realized that!

Bringing up the fact that drinking on one side of the room doesn't affect a person on the other side of the room, is totally irrelevant. Especially when you point out shit like "if you don't like drunks, get to the club at 4 am!"

God, get a fucking clue!

-iliana

[barvybe]

1. I repeat things cause you don't get them the first, second, third, etc. times.

2. regarding the comparison: i was pointing out that there IS NOT comparison cause they are different. the original poster used it as a comparison (you really have trouble with reading don't you? you're so big on cause and effect but you fail to read and note the causes...hmmm)

3. i didn't finally realize that it isn't about not liking smokers: again i'm pointing out how the alcohol issue is not a good comparison

You're such a joke. Perhaps you don't recall that YOU are the person who brought up this comparison (just scroll a little bit to the post you made a few hours ago hun):

"And if that's your point..telling people who don't like alcohol to come after 4 am then don't blast me for telling people to move over or not walk into a bar if smoke irritates them that much!"

4. "Bringing up the fact that drinking on one side of the room doesn't affect a person on the other side of the room, is totally irrelevant. Especially when you point out shit like "if you don't like drunks, get to the club at 4 am!"

5. I didn't suggest that the guy do anything. I just pointed out that as someone who doesn't like being around alcohol (and there are lots of alcoholics who also aren't supposed to be places that serve it) there are options available to them (ARC all the time or going out late. There are NO options for avoiding smoke (which is the entire point of the proposed law).

thanks for refuting your own argument

[Twilo Beauty]

Originally posted by barvybe

1. I repeat things cause you don't get them the first, second, third, etc. times.

Much like yourself, that's why this thread is so long. LOLLLOL

2. regarding the comparison: i was pointing out that there IS NOT comparison cause they are different. the original poster used it as a comparison (you really have trouble with reading don't you? you're so big on cause and effect but you fail to read and note the causes...hmmm)

Um, no, you did say that if clubbers didnt want to deal with alcohol or alcohol drinking patrons that they can show up at 4 am.

They had that "option". In essence you were comparing that with non smoker's not having an "option".

God Learn how to read! : D

You're such a joke. Perhaps you don't recall that YOU are the person who brought up this comparison (just scroll a little bit to the post you made a few hours ago hun):

"And if that's your point..telling people who don't like alcohol to come after 4 am then don't blast me for telling people to move over or not walk into a bar if smoke irritates them that much!"

Dude, I was repeating a statement YOU had said. I know you're real dumb and so does everyone else on the board so it's ok sweety! We'll get you into sepcial ed!

4. "Bringing up the fact that drinking on one side of the room doesn't affect a person on the other side of the room, is totally irrelevant. Especially when you point out shit like "if you don't like drunks, get to the club at 4 am!"

5. I didn't suggest that the guy do anything. I just pointed out that as someone who doesn't like being around alcohol (and there are lots of alcoholics who also aren't supposed to be places that serve it) there are options available to them (ARC all the time or going out late. There are NO options for avoiding smoke (which is the entire point of the proposed law).

Ahhh Options....

Exactly! What a mentioned above...and I thank YOU for REFUTING your own argument!

-iliana

[Twilo Beauty]

Originally posted by brooklynkid

Eddie: just want to thank you for bringing some intelligence into this thread. Hopefully some CP members. like myself and barvby will learn something, regardless of which side we're on. Some people only know how to cry about it as if mom and dad won't lend them the car for the night, like me because I drive a fucking pinto and I'm piping mad about it!

Brooklyn kid...just neede to edit your quote!

-iliana

[brooklynkid]

Originally posted by iliana

Brooklun kid...just neede to edit your quote!

[barvybe]

why don't you take the weekend to recharge.

if you actually have anything to discuss i'll check in...

1. "Dude, I was repeating a statement YOU had said. I know you're real dumb and so does everyone else on the board so it's ok sweety! We'll get you into sepcial ed! "

u repeated my statement and then compared it to smoke from across the room as if they were the same thing - that's your comparison not mine.

2. i can see how you could read what i said about options as a comparison. what i'm telling you is that i'm saying it isn't a good comparison because there are options. i've mentioned that about 4 times including when i initially posted it. in other words alcohol and cig's aren't useful to compare in relation to this topic. Is that clear enough for you?

3. how have i refuted myself? non-smokers currently have no smoke free options...what are you talking about?

4. i see that you don't have any comments on the numerous articles and cases that were posted? perhaps you can read, but i guess comprehension is tough for you. anything you'd like to respond with that would actually support your claims that 2nd hand smoke isn't going to be proven dangerous?

[Twilo Beauty]

Originally posted by barvybe

4. i see that you don't have any comments on the numerous articles and cases that were posted? perhaps you can read, but i guess comprehension is tough for you. anything you'd like to respond with that would actually support your claims that 2nd hand smoke isn't going to be proven dangerous?

No, I don't see the benefit on commenting on such ONE-SIDED articles.

And unlike yourself, I HAVE A LIFE outside this board, so unless this is going for college credit, I'm not looking up/researching anything for YOU!

-iliana

[barvybe]

LMFAO!!

I didn't research anything until you told me you couldn't find any of it and kept asking me to post it for you...but that's ok it only takes a minute or two if you know how to use a computer.

and since you admit not having researched it at all - how do you know its so one sided? oh yeah, just taking other people's word for it again - being a follower.

no worries though, i'm bored with you so i'm not gonna respond to you anymore.

(have you ever noticed that people who are mad insecure always post about how other people have no lives? classic weakminded behavior )

p

[Twilo Beauty]

Originally posted by barvybe

LMFAO!!

I didn't research anything until you told me you couldn't find any of it and kept asking me to post it for you...but that's ok it only takes a minute or two if you know how to use a computer.

and since you admit not having researched it at all - how do you know its so one sided? oh yeah, just taking other people's word for it again - being a follower.

no worries though, i'm bored with you so i'm not gonna respond to you anymore.

(have you ever noticed that people who are mad insecure always post about how other people have no lives? classic weakminded behavior )

p

Hmm...let's see....are you making things up again?

I never mentioned for you to post any links. Actually, you were very eager to do the research and post links in hopes to win your argument. But you failed miserably!

Yes I read your crappy links (and according to you, I didn't comprehend anything!) and they were VERY onesided!

And for your information, classic weak minded behavior can be found in people who post and research on a message Board ALL DAY LONG.....in hopes to make a valid point..but again..FAIL MISERABLY!

-iliana

[barvybe]

Originally posted by iliana

I never mentioned for you to post any links. Actually, you were very eager to do the research and post links in hopes to win your argument. But you failed miserably!

too much E i guess cause your memory sucks. either that or you just started out this way. you actually asked me numerous times to post links to the alleged cases, and kept asking "where are these cases you keep talking about?" and when i told you to do you're own research you evidently couldn't.

but its ok, just like all your statements in this entire discussion no one is taking you seriously

[brooklynkid]

Originally posted by iliana

-iliana

[Twilo Beauty]

Originally posted by barvybe

too much E i guess cause your memory sucks. either that or you just started out this way. you actually asked me numerous times to post links to the alleged cases, and kept asking "where are these cases you keep talking about?" and when i told you to do you're own research you evidently couldn't.

but its ok, just like all your statements in this entire discussion no one is taking you seriously

No..it might be the prime A HYDRO I absorb everynight along with my NICOTINE that's affected my memory.

I guess no one else is taking me seriously EXCEPT you and your passionate replies!

LOLLLOL

-iliana

[Twilo Beauty]

Originally posted by brooklynkid

OMG..did the cheesy hermit DJ come out of his cave???

:finger:

-iliana

[barvybe]

hydro is a good thing...

actually, i'm not taking you seriously at all...it was just entertaining is all.

(btw...no evidence for nicotine being bad for your memory )

[Twilo Beauty]

Originally posted by barvybe

hydro is a good thing...

actually, i'm not taking you seriously at all...it was just entertaining is all.

(btw...no evidence for nicotine being bad for your memory )

"no worries though, i'm bored with you so i'm not gonna respond to you anymore."

Hmm, you're not a man of your word!

So why should I believe any fucking thing you say????

and I said nothing about nicotine affecting my memory....what..can't you COMPREHEND?????

-iliana

[barvybe]

Originally posted by iliana

No..it might be the prime A HYDRO I absorb everynight along with my NICOTINE that's affected my memory.

hmm...you said something about never saying nicotine affects your memory??? evidently you just can't remember

LOL

you're right i did like about not responding - been on a boring ass conference call

[Twilo Beauty]

Originally posted by barvybe

hmm...you said something about never saying nicotine affects your memory??? evidently you just can't remember

LOL

you're right i did like about not responding - been on a boring ass conference call

No..it might be the prime A HYDRO I absorb everynight along with my NICOTINE that's affected my memory.

Ok slow poke:

Weed makes you forget...

Menthol cigs after hydro makes you higher.

GET A CLUE.

-iliana

[barvybe]

Originally posted by iliana

Menthol cigs after hydro makes you higher.

GET A CLUE.

you smoke menthol and you're telling me to get a clue???

wow

(btw - if you learn english you'd know that the sentence you wrote could mean either thing about the memory...its cool though cause once they stop letting you smoke in bars you can sign up for those night courses you've been meaning to take