so ... uh ... why are you voitn for bush ??

[italia23]

For those of you who feel security is your number one issue consider this . . . New York . . . home of the largest attacks . . . is voting for Kerry . . .

New York State is traditionally a Democratic state, as is much of the Northeast. They almost always vote Democrat except for, I think, 72, 80, and 84 (Nixon, Reagan, Reagan). NYC basically always votes Democrat. And keep in mind that the last 3 mayoral terms, and last 2 gubernatorial terms were all served by Republicans. And the FDNY supports Bush.

[chris817]

Perot was the reason for 92. Kerry is just as weak as Dole. Unfortunately, people didnt hate Clinton the way they hate President Bush. As a result, Kerry has people voting against the President instead of for him.

Do you consider Kerry a good candidate? I really dont think you do. No one ever tells me how great Kerry is or how they really believe that his policies will be better for America. They all tell me what a bad job Bush is doing.

As for more recruits, those Muslim animals can say what they want but 9.11 brought the fight to our door. We then took the fight to them. Islam has a dark side and jihad is an evil principle. Convert or conquer.

Well let me say this, either they are with us or against us. If they arent speaking out against the terrorists they are terrorists. It is on the shoulders of Muslims to prove they are on the right side of the war at this point.

Ooh they hated Clinton, maybe not the same way but they hate Bush. Clinton only won by about 5 or 8 points(i could be wrong), so i have to disagree with your assement of Kerry being as weak as Dole. I don't like Kerry but for the most part i don't like most politicans, especially the partisianship crap that has been going on the last 2 years. But i will vote for him over Bush.

They did take the fight to us, but WE pissed off the whole world in helping us. The war on Terror will never be won the way we are fighting it. Bottom line we need help and i hope whoever wins can get us help. I do agree if it is to be won it will take Muslim leaders to speak out against it and crack down on these groups. That will never happen with this administrations policies

Look at Iran a real nuclear threat who just passed a bill with the whole parliament shouting death to America? how can we beat these people the way we are going

[vicman]

i think Kerry is a better candidate than Bush. it's a different question on whether he is good, but he is better than Bush. Bush had 4 years to make his case to win re-election, and frankly he did a terrible job.

true, 9.11 came up and that changed everything, but everything put forth form that point fwd. has been lies. lies about the WMD's, lies about bin ladden and saddam sleeping together, lies about how long the war was going to take and how much it was going to cost, lies about the prisoner abuse (he released 1000 iraqi prisoners who some of them might be back on the streets of baghdad fighting the US Army right now), and he has assembled a staff of the most incompetent people to help him from homeland security to health and human services, to housing and urban development.

in the meantime, his other policies in different areas of the government have not proven to be fruitfull almost in their entirety. the administration has acted with unequal secrecy on issues aside from the Iraq, that have really led me to believe that they do not have eveyones best interest in hand. the way they passed Medicare reform with a 3:30 am voting, after giving all members of the house and senate 12 hrs to read thorugh the 900 page bill (plus add-ons) while excluding all but 2 democrats from any discussion during the bill write up is just an example.

republican or democrat, you need the two parties to balance each other off. with a republoican controlled house, senate and presidency almost anything that they want to pass, has been passed.

further, the next administration (bush or kerry) might end up making up to 4 supreme court judges appointments in the next 4 years. i truly believe that is Bush wins he will appoint 4 conservative to ultra conservative judges to the court cghanging the landscape of the nations judicial system for decades to come. i truly beieve that if kerry wins he will apoint a balance of jundges to the court -although they might lean a bit more to the liberal side. needless to say, if bush gets the chance, who ever he picks, in all probabilty will be approved in the subsequent hearings since the house and senate are likely to remain GOP controlled.

regarding the war effort, i think kerry will do a better job. pressing more for the capture of bin ladden (the real threat) and trying to find a better and dignified way to exit Iraq while keeping the promises made by this adminstration.

trust me that if WMD's had been found in Iraq he would be winning in a landslide right now, but in my view the presidency is for the incumbent to lose more so than for the challenger to win and quite frankly bush has done an almost excellent job in loosing it.

these among other issues (such as AIDS) are the reasons i have tried to convince a lot of people i know who might not be all that into politics to vote for a change in administration.

[italia23]

Vicman, good post.

You explained your support of Kerry well. But how do you feel about the fact that he, too, would have gone to war in Iraq?

[vicman]

Vicman, good post.

You explained your support of Kerry well. But how do you feel about the fact that he, too, would have gone to war in Iraq?

give the intelligence he and bush had at the time yeah, but i firlmly think that he would've pursued a diplomatic solution further before resorting to the invasion.

among a couple of the things he might have done:

1. allow more time for the UN inspectors to continue their inspections.

if that was still not satisfactory then,

2. screw the UN inspectors and have the US Army go and conduct the inspections themselves.

at the same time it would have allowed the Pentagon, CIA and FBI to obtain more information on Iraq, their WMD program, and Osama and take the correct action. if at the end war was warented, so be it, but i truly believe the administration did not give itself enough time to collect the appropiate data on Iraq before going to war, be it invading, man power, costs, occupation, etc.

who knows, with the added time, they might have been able to put more resources into Afganistan and capture Osama while determining where Saddam and Iraq fitted into the puzzle.

[kramadas]

Perot was the reason for 92. Kerry is just as weak as Dole. Unfortunately, people didnt hate Clinton the way they hate President Bush. As a result, Kerry has people voting against the President instead of for him.

Do you consider Kerry a good candidate? I really dont think you do. No one ever tells me how great Kerry is or how they really believe that his policies will be better for America. They all tell me what a bad job Bush is doing.

As for more recruits, those Muslim animals can say what they want but 9.11 brought the fight to our door. We then took the fight to them. Islam has a dark side and jihad is an evil principle. Convert or conquer.

Well let me say this, either they are with us or against us. If they arent speaking out against the terrorists they are terrorists. It is on the shoulders of Muslims to prove they are on the right side of the war at this point.

Tres-b - you used to have some good points. Your posts are increasingly becoming ramblings that are based on ... nothing. Again I ask you - what is the definition of "jihad"? And how was Israel formed (this goes back to that other thread you conveniently ignored)?

[kramadas]

Tres-b - since you probably will not let me educate you a bit. This is from an Islamic site that has a ton of info on Islam. It might behoove you to learn more about Islam before you start spouting more hate.

And I challenge you to find the "conquer or conquered" phrase.

http://www.studyislam.com/isp/jsp/home.jsp

In the linguistic sense, the Arabic word "jihad" means struggling or striving and applies to any effort exerted by anyone. In this sense a student struggles and strives to get an education and pass course work; an employee strives to fulfill his/her job and maintain good relations with his/her employer; a politician strives to maintain or increase his popularity with his constituents and so on. The term strive or struggle may be used for/by Muslims as well non-Muslims; for example, Allah, One and Only True God says in the Qur'an:

"We have enjoined on people kindness to parents; but if they strive (jahadaka) to make you ascribe partners with Me that of which you have no knowledge, then obey them not..." (Al-Qur'an 29:8, also see Al-Qur'an 31:15)

In the above two verses of the Qur'an, it is non-Muslim parents who strive (jahada) to convert their Muslim child back to their religion.

In the West, "jihad" is generally translated as "holy war", a usage the media has popularized. According to Islamic teachings, it is unholy to instigate or start war; however, some wars are inevitable and justifiable. If we translate the words "holy war" back into Arabic we find "harbun muqaddasatun", or for "the holy war", "al-harbu al-muqaddasatu". We challenge any researcher or scholar to find the meaning of "jihad" as holy war in the Qur'an or authentic Hadith collections or in early Islamic literature. Unfortunately, some Muslim writers and translators of the Qur'an, the Hadith and other Islamic literature translate the term "jihad" as "holy war", due to the influence of centuries-old Western propaganda. This could be a reflection of the Christian use of the term "Holy War" to refer to the Crusades of a thousand years ago. However, the Arabic words for "war" are "harb" or "qital", which are found in the Qur'an and Hadith.

For Muslims the term jihad is applied to all forms of striving and has developed some special meanings over time. The sources of this development are the Qur'an (the Word of God revealed to Prophet Muhammad) and the Hadith (teachings of Prophet Muhammad [ denotes Sall-Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam meaning peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). The Qur'an and the Hadith use the word "jihad" in several different contexts which are given below:

1. Recognizing the Creator and loving Him most.

It is human nature to love what is seen with the eyes and felt with the senses more than the UNSEEN REALITY. The Creator of the Universe and the One God is Allah. He is the Unseen Reality which we tend to ignore and not recognize. The Qur'an addresses those who claim to be believers:

"O you who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for protectors if they love disbelief over belief; whoever of you takes them for protectors, such are wrong-doers. Say: if your fathers, and your children, and your brethren, and your spouses, and your tribe, and the wealth you have acquired, and business for which you fear shrinkage, and houses you are pleased with are dearer to you than Allah and His Messenger and striving in His way: then wait till Allah brings His command to pass. Allah does not guide disobedient folk." (Al-Qur'an 9:23,24)

It is indeed a struggle to put Allah ahead of our loved ones, our wealth, our worldly ambitions and our own lives. Especially for a non-Muslim who embraces Islam, it may be a tough struggle due to the opposition of his family, peers and society.

2. Resisting pressure of parents, peers and society:

Once a person has made up his mind to put the Creator of the Universe above all else, he often comes under intense pressures. It is not easy to resist such pressures and strive to maintain dedication and love of Allah over all else. A person who has turned to Islam from another religion may be subjected to pressures designed to turn him back to the religion of the family. We read in the Qur'an:

"So obey not the rejecters of faith, but strive (jahidhum) against them by it (the Qur'an) with a great endeavor." (Al-Qur'an 25:52 )

3. Staying on the straight path steadfastly.

Allah says in the Qur'an:

"And strive (jahidu) for Allah with the endeavor (jihadihi) which is His right. He has chosen you and has not laid upon you in the deen (religion) any hardship ..." (Al-Qur'an 22:78 )

"And whosoever strives (jahada), strives (yujahidu) only for himself, for lo! Allah is altogether independent of the universe." (Al-Qur'an 29:6 )

As for those who strive and struggle to live as true Muslims whose lives are made difficult due to persecution by their opponents, they are advised to migrate to a more peaceful and tolerant land and continue with their struggle in the cause of Allah. Allah says in the Qur'an:

"Lo! As for those whom the angels take (in death) while they wronged themselves, (the angels) will ask: in what you were engaged? They will say: we were oppressed in the land. (The angels) will say: was not Allah's earth spacious that you could have migrated therein? ..." (Al-Qur'an 4:970

"Lo! those who believe, and those who emigrate (to escape persecution) and strive (jahadu) in the way of Allah, these have hope of Allah's mercy ..." (Al-Qur'an 2:218)

Allah tests the believers in their faith and their steadfastness:

"Or did you think that you would enter Paradise while yet Allah knows not those of you who really strive (jahadu), nor knows those (of you) who are steadfast." (Al-Qur'an 3:142 )

"And surely We shall try you with something of fear and hunger, and loss of wealth and lives and fruits; but give glad tidings to the steadfast." (Al-Qur'an 2:155)

We find that the Prophet Muhammad and his clan were boycotted socially and economically for three years to force him to stop his message and compromise with the pagans but he resisted and realized a moral victory.

4. Striving for righteous deeds:

Allah declares in the Qur'an:

"As for those who strive (jahadu) in Us (the cause of Allah), We surely guide them to Our paths, and lo! Allah is with the good doers." (Al-Qur'an 29:69)

When we are faced with two competing interests, it becomes jihad to choose the right one, as the following Hadith exemplify.

Aisha, wife of the Prophet asked, "O Messenger of Allah, we see jihad as the best of deeds, so shouldn't we join it?" He replied, "But, the best of jihad is a perfect hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah)." Sahih Al-Bukhari #2784

At another occasion a man asked the Prophet Muhammad:

"Should I join the jihad?" He asked, "Do you have parents?" The man said, "Yes!" The Prophet said, "then strive by (serving) them!" Sahih Al-Bukhari #5972

Yet another man asked the Messenger of Allah:

"What kind of jihad is better?" He replied, "A word of truth in front of an oppressive ruler!" Sunan Al-Nasa'i #4209

The Messenger of Allah, Muhammad said:

"... the mujahid (one who carries out jihad) is he who strives against himself for the sake of obeying Allah, and the muhajir (one who emigrates) is he who abandons evil deeds and sin." Sahih Ibn Hibban #4862

5. Having courage and steadfastness to convey the message of Islam:

The Qur'an narrates the experiences of a large number of Prophets and good people who suffered a great deal trying to convey the message of Allah to mankind. For examples see the Qur'an 26:1-190, 36:13-32. In the Qur'an, Allah specifically praises those who strive to convey His message:

"Who is better in speech than one who calls (other people) to Allah, works righteous, and declares that he is from the Muslims." (Al-Qur'an 41:33)

Under adverse conditions it takes great courage to remain a Muslim, declare oneself to be a Muslim and call others to Islam. We read in the Qur'an:

"The (true) believers are only those who believe in Allah and his messenger and afterward doubt not, but strive with their wealth and their selves for the cause of Allah. Such are the truthful." (Al-Qur'an 49:15)

6. Defending Islam and the community

Allah declares in the Qur'an:

"To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to defend themselves), because they are wronged - and verily, Allah is Most Powerful to give them victory - (they are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right - (for no cause) except that they say, 'Our Lord is Allah'.... " (Al-Qur'an 22:39-40)

The Qur'an permits fighting to defend the religion of Islam and the Muslims. This permission includes fighting in self defense and for the protection of family and property. The early Muslims fought many battles against their enemies under the leadership of the Prophet Muhammad or his representatives. For example, when the pagans of Quraysh brought armies against Prophet Muhammad, the Muslims fought to defend their faith and community. The Qur'an adds:

"Fight in the cause of Allah against those who fight against you, but do not transgress limits. Lo! Allah loves not aggressors. ... And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against transgressors." (Al-Qur'an 2:190,193 )

7. Helping allied people who may not be Muslim:

In the late period of the Prophet Muhammad's life the tribe of Banu Khuza'ah became his ally. They were living near Makkah which was under the rule of the pagan Quraysh, Prophet Muhammad's own tribe. The tribe of Banu Bakr, an ally of Quraysh, with the help of some elements of Quraysh, attacked Banu Khuza'ah and inflicted heavy damage. Banu Khuza'ah invoked the treaty and demanded Prophet Muhammad to come to their help and punish Quraysh. The Prophet Muhammad organized a campaign against Quraysh of Makkah which resulted in the conquest of Makkah which occurred without any battle.

8. Removing treacherous people from power:

Allah orders the Muslims in the Qur'an:

"If you fear treachery from any group, throw back (their treaty) to them, (so as to be) on equal terms. Lo! Allah loves not the treacherous." (Al-Qur'an 8:58)

Prophet Muhammad undertook a number of armed campaigns to remove treacherous people from power and their lodgings. He had entered into pacts with several tribes, however, some of them proved themselves treacherous. Prophet Muhammad launched armed campaigns against these tribes, defeated and exiled them from Medina and its surroundings.

9. Defending through preemptive strikes

Indeed, it is difficult to mobilize people to fight when they see no invaders in their territory; however, those who are charged with responsibility see dangers ahead of time and must provide leadership. The Messenger of Allah, Muhammad, had the responsibility to protect his people and the religion he established in Arabia. Whenever he received intelligence reports about enemies gathering near his borders he carried out preemptive strikes, broke their power and dispersed them. Allah ordered Muslims in the Qur'an:

"Fighting is prescribed upon you, and you dislike it. But it may happen that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. And Allah knows and you know not." 2:216

10. Gaining freedom to inform, educate and convey the message of Islam in an open and free environment

Allah declares in the Qur'an:

"They ask you (Muhammad) concerning fighting in the Sacred Month. Say, 'Fighting therein is a grave (offense) but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its inhabitants. Persecution is worse than killing. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith, if they can. ..." (Al-Qur'an 2:217 )

"And those who, when an oppressive wrong is inflicted on them, (are not cowed but) fight back." (Al-Qur'an 42:39)

To gain this freedom, Prophet Muhammad said:

"Strive (jahidu) against the disbelievers with your hands and tongues." Sahih Ibn Hibban #4708

The life of the Prophet Muhammad was full of striving to gain the freedom to inform and convey the message of Islam. During his stay in Makkah he used non-violent methods and after the establishment of his government in Madinah, by the permission of Allah, he used armed struggle against his enemies whenever he found it inevitable.

11. Freeing people from tyranny

Allah admonishes Muslims in the Qur'an:

"And why should you not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? - Men, women, and children, whose cry is: 'Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You, one who will protect; and raise for us from You, one who will help'." (Al-Qur'an 4:75)

The mission of the Prophet Muhammad was to free people from tyranny and exploitation by oppressive systems. Once free, individuals in the society were then free to chose Islam or not. Prophet Muhammad's successors continued in his footsteps and went to help oppressed people. For example, after the repeated call by the oppressed people of Spain to the Muslims for help, Spain was liberated by Muslim forces and the tyrant rulers removed. After the conquest of Syria and Iraq by the Muslims, the Christian population of Hims reportedly said to the Muslims:

"We like your rule and justice far better than the state of oppression and tyranny under which we have been living."

The defeated rulers of Syria were Roman Christians and Iraq was ruled by Zoarastrian Persians.

What should Muslims do when they are victorious?

Muslims should remove tyranny, treachery, bigotry, and ignorance and replace them with justice and equity. We should provide truthful knowledge and free people from the bondage of associationism (shirk or multiple gods), prejudice, superstition and mythology. Muslims remove immorality, fear, crime, exploitation and replace them with divine morality, peace and education. The Qur'an declares:

"Lo! Allah commands you that you restore deposits to their owners, and if you judge between mankind that you judge justly. Lo! It is proper that Allah admonishes you. Lo! Allah is ever Hearer, Seer." (Al-Qur'an 4:58 )

"O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah's witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to Piety and fear Allah. And Allah is well acquainted with all that you do." (Al-Qur'an 5:8 )

"And of those whom We have created there is a nation who guides with the Truth and establishes justice with it." (Al-Qur'an 7:181 )

"Lo! Allah enjoins justice and kindness, and giving to kinsfolk, and forbids lewdness and abomination and wickedness. He exhorts you in order that you may take heed." (Al-Qur'an 16:90 )

"Those who, if We give them power in the land, establish prescribed prayers (salah) and pay the poor-due (zakah) and enjoin right conduct and forbid evil. And with Allah rests the end (and decision) of (all) affairs." (Al-Qur'an 22:41)

Did Islam spread by force, swords or guns?

The unequivocal and emphatic answer is NO! The Qur'an declares:

"Let there be no compulsion (or coercion) in the religion (Islam). The right direction is distinctly clear from error." (Al-Qur'an 2:256)

Here is a good study of the question of the spread of Islam by a Christian missionary, T.W. Arnold:

"... of any organized attempt to force the acceptance of Islam on the non-Muslim population, or of any systematic persecution intended to stamp out the Christian religion, we hear nothing. Had the caliphs chosen to adopt either course of action, they might have swept away Christianity as easily as Ferdinand and Isabella drove Islam out of Spain, or Louis XIV made Protestantism penal in France, or the Jews were kept out of England for 350 years. The Eastern Churches in Asia were entirely cut off from communion with the rest of Christiandom throughout which no one would have been found to lift a finger on their behalf, as heretical communions. So that the very survival of these Churches to the present day is a strong proof of the generally tolerant attitude of the Mohammedan [sic] governments towards them." (Emphasis added.)

Islam does not teach nor do Muslims desire conversion of any people for fear, greed, marriage or any other form of coercion.

In conclusion, jihad in Islam is striving in the way of Allah by pen, tongue, hand, media and, if inevitable, with arms. However, jihad in Islam does not include striving for individual or national power, dominance, glory, wealth, prestige or pride.

[tres-b]

Tres-b - you used to have some good points. Your posts are increasingly becoming ramblings that are based on ... nothing. Again I ask you - what is the definition of "jihad"? And how was Israel formed (this goes back to that other thread you conveniently ignored)?

Straight from the dictionary---

ji·had also je·had

n.

A Muslim holy war or spiritual struggle against infidels.

A crusade or struggle: “The war against smoking is turning into a jihad against people who smoke†(Fortune).

jihad

\Ji*had"\, Jehad \Je*had"\, n. [Ar. jih[=a]d.] (Moham.) A religious war against infidels or Mohammedan heretics; also, any bitter war or crusade for a principle or belief.

jihad

n 1: a holy war waged by Muslims against infidels [syn: jehad, international jihad] 2: a holy struggle or striving by a Muslim for a moral or spiritual or political goal [syn: jehad]

Israel was formed by politics. I am not ignoring that. However, I will say that the land of Israel and the Jewish people living there date back to the days before Jesus. The acquisition of the occupied territories was a result of an Arab offensive that was crushed by Israel. No offensive, no occupation.

On another note, I blame some of the ramblings on election day stress. I need a

[vicman]

so anyone going to an election day party and getting their drink on?

i think i'll just go home and pig out on left over halloween candy.

[kramadas]

Straight from the dictionary---

ji·had also je·had

n.

A Muslim holy war or spiritual struggle against infidels.

A crusade or struggle: “The war against smoking is turning into a jihad against people who smoke†(Fortune).

jihad

\Ji*had"\, Jehad \Je*had"\, n. [Ar. jih[=a]d.] (Moham.) A religious war against infidels or Mohammedan heretics; also, any bitter war or crusade for a principle or belief.

jihad

n 1: a holy war waged by Muslims against infidels [syn: jehad, international jihad] 2: a holy struggle or striving by a Muslim for a moral or spiritual or political goal [syn: jehad]

Israel was formed by politics. I am not ignoring that. However, I will say that the land of Israel and the Jewish people living there date back to the days before Jesus. The acquisition of the occupied territories was a result of an Arab offensive that was crushed by Israel. No offensive, no occupation.

On another note, I blame some of the ramblings on election day stress. I need a

Thus the westernized definition. Since this is a muslim concept I will go with the Muslim definition of it. Otherwise its akin to believing the Muslim definition of Easter rather than the Christian definition.

THe land of Israel was in the hands of Arabs for many hundreds of years (and out of Jewish hands for thousands of years) before this. Since it was a Jewish homeland a full two milennia ago, is it OK to displace the Arabs who were living there at the turn of the century? And then slowly push them out of the area because of a growing school of thought called Zionism, and then proclaim a large part of said land as Jewish territory.

Let me ask you - if you were kicked out of your home and some foreign govt then said that whole area now belonged to Native Americans, how would you feel? So, think about that the next time you think Muslims were unecessarily aggressive against Israel, and you call them "muslim animals". If you want to lay blame lay it on your ancestors, the Europeans - colonizers.

[obby]

among a couple of the things he might have done:

1. allow more time for the UN inspectors to continue their inspections.

Was 12 years not enough defiance for you ????

if that was still not satisfactory then,

2. screw the UN inspectors and have the US Army go and conduct the inspections themselves.

LOL

That would be considered a war !!!! our troops on their land ????? Think about it ??? It was tough enough to get the UN there without complications and excuses. What makes you think they would have accepted our troops, The FBI, The CIA ect ect ????

[jtk4]

wait wasn't isreal/palestine under romans/mongols/ottomons/british and then given to the jews in like 1917.

Lets not pretend that palistine held that land for 2 thousand years. It was sacked a dozen times, and under different occupation atleast 5 times.

edit to include;

i could be wrong just my understanding.

[vicman]

so lemme ask you . . .where are the WMD's? 'cuz if you know, i'm sure the pentagon would like to know so they can go and find them.

if the only other option was war, then yes, i believe they would've have accepted it. bomb a couple of suspected power plants to intimidate them and get the message through or what not, but if the US had gone in there and looked for themselves, they wouldn;t have been able to blame anyones but themselves for not finding shit. now they can blame themselves for killing a whole bunch of civilians & torturing people, because they didn't do their homework.

[vixengirly]

OBBY......WORD THE FUCK UP!!! u broke it down, thank u very much..

idk how people can vote for KERRY when uneducated celebrites, like leo, ben, aston.....stand behind him. voting for kerry is a TREND PEOPLE.... in the end...we need someone to protect us and ill put money on it that if kerry wins, we get attacked hardcore~ and ur taxes end up going to welfare ghetto bitches and playgrounds for their children...i work for my money im sure u do too...

i could go on, but ill let obby do that )

[italia23]

so anyone going to an election day party and getting their drink on?

i think i'll just go home and pig out on left over halloween candy.

yeah, to keep me wired enough to stay up and watch the polls close lol

[jtk4]

yeah lets go to war and cut taxes, sounds like a great economic plan.

[ghhhhhost]

i just dont want any kind of bombs falling in europe...BUSH in 04

[mursa]

we need someone to protect us and ill put money on it that if kerry wins, we get attacked hardcore~

..well , Bush was the one in charge when we were attacked "hardcore" back a few years , remember that ? ..

..you right wing folks are a unique species . lol

[kramadas]

wait wasn't isreal/palestine under romans/mongols/ottomons/british and then given to the jews in like 1917.

Lets not pretend that palistine held that land for 2 thousand years. It was sacked a dozen times, and under different occupation atleast 5 times.

edit to include;

i could be wrong just my understanding.

I never said the palestinians held that land for 2 thousand years...I said the Arabs had it for several hundred years (Ottoman empire) and overall it was out of Jewish control for over 2 millennia (eg, under Romans, etc).

I might be mistaken - the ottomans might not have been all Arabs, but I'm sure they were Muslim.

And yes there were Jews and CHristians living peacefully under Ottoman rule.

[kramadas]

OBBY......WORD THE FUCK UP!!! u broke it down, thank u very much..

idk how people can vote for KERRY when uneducated celebrites, like leo, ben, aston.....stand behind him. voting for kerry is a TREND PEOPLE.... in the end...we need someone to protect us and ill put money on it that if kerry wins, we get attacked hardcore~ and ur taxes end up going to welfare ghetto bitches and playgrounds for their children...i work for my money im sure u do too...

i could go on, but ill let obby do that )

You want to put money on it?? Like how we technically got attacked under Bush's watch? Americans are not safe anywhere in the world thanks to Mr Bushie.

[obby]

so lemme ask you . . .where are the WMD's? 'cuz if you know, i'm sure the pentagon would like to know so they can go and find them.

Me personally? I don't know !!!!! The WMD issue might sound good when you spin it, but truth be told, THE WORLD, THE U.N., Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, UK, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Australia, Russia, etc.. ALL WARNED OF THIS WMD threat Iraq posed So, how this WMD intel failure becomes a Bush failure is amusing. Only rabid Bush haters find comfort in that wicked spin which most clear thinking adults know is just poppycock.

[kramadas]

Me personally? I don't know !!!!! The WMD issue might sound good when you spin it, but truth be told, THE WORLD, THE U.N., Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, UK, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Australia, Russia, etc.. ALL WARNED OF THIS WMD threat Iraq posed. So, how this WMD intel failure becomes a Bush failure is amusing. Only rabid Bush haters find comfort in that wicked spin which most clear thinking adults know is just poppycock.

No, the rest of the world wanted more inspections till they were MORE SURE of their facts. That is, only Mr Bushie boy wanted to jump on all the faulty intel he had, and run with it. FOr that, the blame DOES lie squarely on his shoulders.

[obby]

You're wrong !!!!! lol. u'r pathetic. READ A BOOK and stay away from the DNC talking points. Not only did the Countires I mentioned feel that Saddam had them but so did allot of Demz. Even your boy Kerry voted for the war but yet you do not hate him. This info has been available to the public for a while so either you are in deniel or your hate for Bush is so grand that it has blinded you (or it could be the drugs).

Say hello to your democratic friends !

What Did The Democrats Say About Iraq's WMD

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."

- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003 | Source

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."

- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002 | Source

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."

- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998 | Source

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."

- President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998 | Source

"We must stop Saddam from ever again jeopardizing the stability and security of his neighbors with weapons of mass destruction."

- Madeline Albright, Feb 1, 1998 | Source

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."

- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998 | Source

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."

Letter to President Clinton.

- (D) Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, others, Oct. 9, 1998 | Source

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."

- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998 | Source

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."

- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999 | Source

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them."

- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002 | Source

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."

- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 | Source

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."

- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 | Source

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."

- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002 | Source

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."

- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002 | Source

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."

- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002 | Source

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."

- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002 | Source

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."

- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002 | Source

[jtk4]

Did anyone say that we had to invade with a ground force? did anyone say we should occupy? There are a lot of threats in the world, so i do not think that by recognizing these threats and saying they are threats is anyway saying we should go to war.

[vixengirly]

You want to put money on it?? Like how we technically got attacked under Bush's watch? Americans are not safe anywhere in the world thanks to Mr Bushie.

yea i will....cuz it was clinton who left a mess and BUSH had to take the wrath,,,....if neone had half a BRAIN...they would be happy were straighten those bitches out and i dont give 2 rats asses bout the the fact that this might also be bc of oil. incase u didnt kno, AMERICA needs oil to function...we are not europe where we can walk out our door and walk to the food store. This country was doomed if we didnt take the intiative and do some work over there... u people are unreal!!!!!! ur buddy clinton also sold nuclear weapons plans to north korea...so lets not go there!